Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

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HayleyStark
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by HayleyStark »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Haibara is... a little different from Irene. In some ways she is similar, in others not. Irene never loved Sherlock. Sherlock admired Irene, but if Watson is to be believed Sherlock is not capable of love. In several ways, Irene reminds me more of Vermouth than Haibara. Both are actresses and are good with disguises. Both were tricked by the detective into revealing an important secret, and then despite retaining incriminating knowledge in the end, safeguards it instead. Both give her word that she won't use it against the protagonist or his client in the case of Irene, and Conan and Haibara in the case of Vermouth.
How come Vermouth is similar to Irene Adler? Irene wasn't a criminal, didn't work with Moriarty (aka Boss or Gin if you like) and personality wise, I see Vermouth as the cold hearted criminal who discovers a drop of humanity in her heart in spite of herself. She is a completely different character.

Haibara proved herself in acting, singing and pulling disguises. In addition to discovering Conan's disguise when she was still Sherry, and never revealing it to the organisation, thus protecting him as Irene protected Sherlock's client. And as I mentioned before, Haibara's looks and attitude are identical to Irene. They are sharp and independent when all women are supposed to be ladies. I don't see that in Vermouth. She's intelligent and dangerous but her attitude is flirtatious and teasing.

And Agasa is obviously the fill for Watson's role from the beginning, both being men of science and the detective's secret holders. Haibara mentioned once that she's not Conan's assistant. She is too indignant to be Watson. Plus, she's a woman.
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HayleyStark
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by HayleyStark »

Thanks for the story, look at what Sherlock says in her defense
"What a woman -- oh, what a woman!" cried the King of Bohemia, when we had all three read this epistle. "Did I not tell you how quick and resolute she was? Would she not have made an admirable queen? Is it not a pity that she was not on my level?"

"From what I have seen of the lady she seems indeed to be on a very different level to your Majesty," said Holmes coldly. "I am sorry that I have not been able to bring your Majesty's business to a more successful conclusion."
Holmes was implying that Adler is on a much higher level than the king. I think this is what leads other writers after Doyle making books and films in which Adler is Sherlock's greatest love. Did he ever stand up to any other woman?  I don't think so. And I want to say that this proves that a love story between Shinichi and Shiho is very, very likely. They don't have to end up together though.

EDIT: I'm not using the new Holmes film as proof or anything, but this is what Rachel McAdams says about Holmes and Adler in love
So we developed this kind of strange love affair, (laughs) a very unique love affair. We just kind of played on that, but we’re very competitive with one another and we’re trying to outsmart each other all the time, and yet trying to have this odd, normal relationship, which is nearly impossible. It’s fun.
Sounds really familiar, lol.
Last edited by HayleyStark on January 1st, 2010, 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by Schillok »

How come Vermouth is similar to Irene Adler? Irene wasn't a criminal, didn't work with Moriarty (aka Boss or Gin if you like) and personality wise, I see Vermouth as the cold hearted criminal who discovers a drop of humanity in her heart in spite of herself. She is a completely different character.

Haibara proved herself in acting, singing and pulling disguises. In addition to discovering Conan's disguise when she was still Sherry, and never revealing it to the organisation, thus protecting him as Irene protected Sherlock's client. And as I mentioned before, Haibara's looks and attitude are identical to Irene. They are sharp and independent when all women are supposed to be ladies. I don't see that in Vermouth. She's intelligent and dangerous but her attitude is flirtatious and teasing.
Well, obviously there are differences between the Sherlock Holmes characters and and the DC cast.
Conan/Shinichi isn't like Holmes who only has interest in solving cases. Conan/Shinichi embraces the normal live as well, has friends, a girlfriend and is interested in a lot of (seeming useless) knowledge that Holmes would ignore if it weren't important to solving a case.

Irene has the role as the mysterious woman Holmes met, an opponent who was able to see through his trap (albeit too late) and escape. Vermouth fits this description best. 
And Agasa is obviously the fill for Watson's role from the beginning, both being men of science and the detective's secret holders. Haibara mentioned once that she's not Conan's assistant. She is too indignant to be Watson. Plus, she's a woman.
When you talk about a role the gender doesn't matter that much. Remember that Sherlock and Watson are of similar social status and similar age - which can't be said about Conan/Shinichi were Agasa is clearly the elder. Holmes and Watson are equals, Shinichi and Agasa are not.
Still, I agree that Agasa fits the role of Watson best, at least more often than any other character.
Holmes was implying that Adler is on a much higher level than the king.
On the level of intellect and cunning. It was the King who was admiring what a good bride she would be.
Just because it was the only woman Holmes was ever fascinated with doesn't mean he was in love.

Also your sig with the Amino Acid abbreviations (GCA UAC U AUG AUA) is cute. I wonder if anyone's wondered what mine was...
You are the first one mentioning it. And it seems you found the correct solution, congratulations.  :)
I had seen your code before. (I guess it somehow influenced me to make one of mys own). I couldn't read it then.
I still couldn't solve it now.

BAGA BGEGD EDBDEG A
It doesn't seem to be a normal letter substitution code. And no anagram. Neither is it an amino acid motive or chemical abbreviations. At least none I know.
Something that stands out is the limited number of characters used - only a few letters, all from the beginning of the alphabet. This is why I think the letters are coding for something else, like numbers:
2171 27574 5424

Trying to translate it back "21" could stand for either B A or U - making the first word UGA or BAGA (Or BQA, if you translate "17" into a Q). The later is no word, the former... a tRNA sequence coding for an amino acid. But this code stops working once advancing to the next words.

The idea that two letters always encode one character (a single letter, a hiragana syllable) is also not possible because the second word has an odd number of letters.
It's hard to break codes when you don't know what to look for.  ;D
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by baka1412 »

I've tried searching on google with that "BAGA BGEGD EDBDEG A" and the only reference i got was from this site (more precisely, your post)...

Following my teacher advices..

" If it's not in Google, then it doesn't exist :D" So i think it's just some random words..
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

baka1412 wrote: I've tried searching on google with that "BAGA BGEGD EDBDEG A" and the only reference i got was from this site (more precisely, your post)...

Following my teacher advices..

" If it's not in Google, then it doesn't exist :D" So i think it's just some random words..
Lol, it's decidedly not random.

There was a DC case that contained a code similar to this...

Also one more thing to consider with Haibara Ai's rolemodel; Gosho took influences from several different authors so it could be that she was based on another author's character rather than one of sir Arthur Conan Doyle's. Is there anyone else in other detective canons she resembles?
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on January 1st, 2010, 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by kirite »

Oh my gawd, the union of two annoyingly debated topics.  Yet... I'm not too surprised with the new movie and all.

In anycase here's what I think of Irene.

She's caring, beautiful, good at disguises, a retired opera singer, daring (acts quite rashly actually), has a good sense of humor, and has a lot of pride.  She used to be quite naive but now she knows better and is happily married to the man of her dreams (I never understand why some people view this as something tragic).

I don't think any main character is Irene.  None of the characters seems that mature (maybe Yukiko?).  But since this might quickly turn into some sort of Ran versus Haibara debait (sigh).  I'll say Ran takes Irene Adler's open gentleness and the (scary) determination to be with the person she love while Haibara takes after the wonderful sense of humor.  
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by soratothamax »

Beastly wrote: But Ai havent beaten Conan in any form except in Science...
At least she can beat him in that. How many people can beat him in anything else? Ran can kick butt better than him (though she seems to get kidnapped far more often than kicking butt) and Kaitou Kid can match Shinichi/Conan in wit, though he's not BETTER at it. Everyone else....nope, got nothing.
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by bluekaitou1412 »

soratothamax wrote:
Beastly wrote: But Ai havent beaten Conan in any form except in Science...
At least she can beat him in that. How many people can beat him in anything else? Ran can kick butt better than him (though she seems to get kidnapped far more often than kicking butt) and Kaitou Kid can match Shinichi/Conan in wit, though he's not BETTER at it. Everyone else....nope, got nothing.
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by kirite »

I think Irene Adler is just like Vermouth actually.  The wit, the disguises, the barely outsmarting Conan once, the (maybe?) kindness and even the skills that movie!Irene seem to portray.
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by Sakina »

Actually, I think that Kudo Yukiko is Irene Adler.

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Your arguments are invalid.  xD
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by mangaluva »

XDXDXDXD true. The Shonen Tantei-Dan are the Baker Street Irregulars, Yukiko is Irene, Yuusaku is Sherlock, Aoyama is Mycroft (well he created them, right?), Agasa is Watson, Gin is Moriarty, Vodka is Moran, Megure is Lestrade, and Kid is Lupin (because Holmes and Lupin met in the first couple of Lupin books and Lupin stole Holmes' pocketwatch  :D).

Though Hakuba would so love to be Holmes. Hmm. If that were the case...
Holmes - Hakuba
Watson - the hawk
Irene Adler - Akako (just because I like her XD)
Lestrade - Nakamori Ginzo
Mycroft - Shinichi
Moriarty - Snake
Moran - One of Snake's goons
Baker Street Irregulars - those millions of little eye-camera robots from that one MK chapter XDXD
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

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I suddenly want to watch the movie again ><
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by caribou »

I think it's hard to find a match for Watson because Sherlock Holmes is such a very very solitary person. So Watson plays the role of friend, sidekick, confidante.. all at once. but Gosho was kinder to Shinichi/Conan and let him form friendships with quite a number of people throughout the story, so he has more people to fill in different facets of this role. I think actually Ran is Watson, especially in the beginning, when she was always by Shinichi's side. only difference is Gosho makes Shinichi capable of love so Ran also plays the role of his lover (well presumably, I guess there are people who will question that *shifty eyes*).

but I think Haibara's personality does match Irene Adler for the most part. but story-wise Vermouth matches Adler better... only difference is I don't think Conan/Shinichi fell in love with her. or did he?  :o
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by Dus »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Holmes - Shinichi
Watson - There isn't really one person who fills this roll as Shinichi doesn't pick up a helper. Sometimes Ai fills this roll, other times Agasa.
Irene Adler - Vermouth
Lestrade - Mouri Kogoro or the police force in general.
Mycroft - Kudo Yuusaku
Moriarty - the boss
Moran - Gin especially but also Chianti, Korn, or Vodka...
Baker Street Irregulars - The detective boys.
The problem with that list is that you're building the house from the roof downwards.
Yes, Sherlock holmes was the main inspiration for Gosho but it wasn't the only thing he ever read.
So rather than making a list of the characters in Doyle's works and checking what their equivalents are we should make a list of characters in Dc and check what characters influenced the:

Shinichi/conan: Holmes (duh), Shunsaku Kudo
Heiji: Heizo Hasegawa (his father as well of course) Hattori, Shunsaku Kudo's boss
Kogoro: Kogoro Akechi and Columbo
Megure: Maigret and Lestrade
Agasa: Watson, who wasn't really Holmes' assistant after all but his chronist also Q
Boss: Morarty
Mycroft: Yusaku Kudo
Kaito Kid: Arsène Lupin
Eri: Ellery Queen
Detective Boys: Bakerstreet irregulars
Ai: Irene Adler, but mostly Cordelia Gray. Read the novels (there's only two of them) the similiarities are remarkable. V.I. Warshawski as well, but I haven't read anythin with her so I couldn't say  to what extent

I have a hard time finding literary models for the FBI and the BO and I have never read a Japanese mystery novel so this list is far from complete.
Last edited by Dus on July 29th, 2010, 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Haibara Ai = Irene Adler

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

Dus wrote: The problem with that list is that you're building the house from the roof downwards.
Yes, Sherlock holmes was the main inspiration for Gosho but it wasn't the only thing he ever read.
The point of the thread was restricting it to sir ACD's canon.
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