Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[pofa]

Yeah, that was me, Kleene XD But I didn't want to change the roles, I just wanted the GM to quit giving them to me.

Also, since it looks like it's Annoy PT Day, *votes to make blame not a crime anymore*

[Kleene Onigiri]

^why? :V

[Jd-]

@jd's idea: That BS is there so the BO can infiltrate the town. If you make those actions analyzable, then why give the BO BS at all? The BO already have a hard time to trick the Town, with all those changes nowadays D:

I don't think that's true at all. The BS would still be infinitely useful. This isn't like the stake-outer can analyze anything and everything done by anyone that night. For them to analyze something game-changing, they would have to know who to stake-out and that honestly just does not happen very often. Even beyond that, they would need to have reason to analyze that specific thing. The BS would still be very, very, very useful and it does not really hinder its usefulness as drastically as you've suggested.

[Kleene Onigiri]

@jd's idea: That BS is there so the BO can infiltrate the town. If you make those actions analyzable, then why give the BO BS at all? The BO already have a hard time to trick the Town, with all those changes nowadays D:

I don't think that's true at all. The BS would still be infinitely useful. This isn't like the stake-outer can analyze anything and everything done by anyone that night. For them to analyze something game-changing, they would have to know who to stake-out and that honestly just does not happen very often. Even beyond that, they would need to have reason to analyze that specific thing. The BS would still be very, very, very useful and it does not really hinder its usefulness as drastically as you've suggested.

It could have, in my case in the current game for example.
I'm not sure if the action "heal" that was done was a BS action from pofa. But if it was, I could have checked that our, which would have nailed down anokata. And Anokatas most usefull trait is to not get exposed so fast. His negative side is, that he can't find out roles or protect fellow BOs with slander etc.
He's there to infiltrate the town and gather info via talking to the town. Or simply to not get caught and arrested/lynched.

[pofa]

And Anokatas most usefull trait is to not get exposed so fast. His negative side is, that he can't find out roles or protect fellow BOs with slander etc.
He's there to infiltrate the town and gather info via talking to the town. Or simply to not get caught and arrested/lynched.

That's why I want blame not to be a crime anymore, btw. Since we now have 2 Cross-examiners and 2 House searchers.

[Jd-]

It could have, in my case in the current game for example.
I'm not sure if the action "heal" that was done was a BS action from pofa. But if it was, I could have checked that our, which would have nailed down anokata. And Anokatas most usefull trait is to not get exposed so fast. His negative side is, that he can't find out roles or protect fellow BOs with slander etc.
He's there to infiltrate the town and gather info via talking to the town. Or simply to not get caught and arrested/lynched.

That's exactly the point, though: This is situational. If Anokata doesn't want to get caught using the BS, Anokata shouldn't use the BS. Plenty of people never say a word about what their ability does or who they're going after in order to protect themselves--both town and Borg. If Anokata gets caught in a lie, that's the risk he took. As of now, the Borg has no real risk using the BS. This would at least give them pause and give the town some sort of weapon against it. Bottom line: I can see no way in which the BS is suddenly completely unusable as a result of this suggestion.

Speaking of Anokata, as I just said on IRC, I think making him observe as only teenager/adult has an adverse effect most people won't recognize at first: This makes the kids amazingly powerful. Conan would be by far the best role in the game if it were a cert that all "child" observes were immediate allies. You need to have that hesitation in the game, even if it isn't highly probable it's Anokata.

[Commi-Ninja]

That's a good point about Observe...

Really, I was only trying to suggest ways that would stop people from saying "Oh, look, I'm Camel.  *suicides*"

[PT]

Apparently you've never played in a game with me before, Kleene. I always end up in a big alliance despite my paranoia.

Anyway, you guys decide what you wanna do. Don't even wanna think about it anymore.

[Kleene Onigiri]

@observe: Once anokata dies or is detected not in the game, observe get's more powerful too.

@stake-out: Analyze would also be conditional then. And analyze would jsut be useful to find BS actions then.
You could give it to Chiba/takagi then. But I think it wouldn't make the situation "stake-out is useless/boring" better, or at least, not much better.

I guess the problem with stake-out roles, jodie, camel, takagi and chiba is, that they feel "boring". Right?
So you'd need to give them something else or something additional. Or maybe even jodie, camel, takagi and chiba different from each other more.

So I'll throw a idea from me into this. A "new" ability.

Name: ?
Role: ? (good for town and BO)
Ability:
- Night or Night/day action
- If used on a player, then all actions on that player will fail.
It's like tricking, just modified. It can also be used a bit like a protection too.
So when used on someone that was about to be killed, that person won't die.
But it can also hinder people from being proven. So if someone was about to be interrogated, the interrogation can be hindered.
Depending on how it's used, you can either use it on a townie, and make him suspicious. Or use it on a BO, and save him from being interrogated as BO too.
Can also hinder stealings. So someone that was stolen from over and over can be saved from APTX that way too.
In case it's also a day action, it could hinder lovey-dovey, charms or accompany etc. Or also hinder a APTX?
Can also hinder detention or a house-search
- can't hinder arrest of course

[Commi-Ninja]

Well, you've got the name right there: hinder.

[Akonyl]

Cry all you want, Akonyl.  I've been Vodka more times than necessary.

wait, what? I wasn't complaining about anything, not sure why this is directed at me :I

@PT: No, I myself have never been jodie/camel outside of MM, however I was lovers with Commi (lovers, not BFFS, commi ) in round 16 or so and I saw no issue with that being our only method of gaining allies.


As for the Anokata being teenager/adult rather than child thing: I'm aware of that, and I don't think it's a necessary change either because I don't think Observe is as bad as people make it out to be.

As for frame not being a crime: While I agree to a point, I would actually argue that Eri/Kujou/Megure/Shiratori are actually better off when Anokata isn't in the game, because Frame/Blame is a *permanent* slander to every target it hits. So if you combine Anokata/Calvados, you can perma slander 2 people a night, which is fairly noteworthy imo.

It's not like he's forced to use it either, so he could just abstain from using it (because it's not like anyone's ever actually been arrested for a framed action yet anyway )


As for Jd-'s point about "if you get caught using the suitcase as a faked action it's your own fault", I don't agree with that at all, because I don't think the borg should have to give pause to something which is their one BSable action that night and is thus insanely valuable.

Rather than being able to check if it was authentic, I would argue, if stake-out really needs to be upgraded (which I'm not sure it does) that the stake-outer be given Special Investigate x1 which can only be used to investigate who did an action on a person that they staked out previously. This serves the same purpose of checking "did PT really heal Kleene?" like you're suggesting without making them immediately able to out BO members by being like "oh look, that heal you claimed was a faked action :V"

[Jd-]

As for Jd-'s point about "if you get caught using the suitcase as a faked action it's your own fault", I don't agree with that at all, because I don't think the borg should have to give pause to something which is their one BSable action that night and is thus insanely valuable.

One thing I would like to note is that the "analyze" ability as suggested would not give a result until the end of the next day phase. It isn't like the Borg would instantly be in the hole on account of using the Black Suitcase to throw off the town--they would, if this were introduced to the game, just have to account for the fact that a stake-outer may not be fooled as easily as they often are now.

That said, the special SI suggestion is a fair compromise of the idea (though it needs a new label because it will be confusing for people who think they have an all-inclusive SI when they really don't; maybe use "inspect" or "examine" or something) and is a more balanced option to introduce to the game as far as I can tell.

[Kleene Onigiri]

So, instead of checking if there was a BS action, they can SI one action that they caught on stake-out?

Sounds fun :V Since it's not just especially for BS. And it's nor directly a SI either, since they can't check if who stole from someone as long as they didn't had that on the stake-out.

Would need a clarification tho if it's used. Since when someone dies, and that one was stake-outed, you don't get a result. Same of that person was arrested. So for stake-out+that SI-stakeout, it should be changed I guess?
Or won't you be able to SI-stake-out arrest and/or a kill?

[Akonyl]

As for Jd-'s point about "if you get caught using the suitcase as a faked action it's your own fault", I don't agree with that at all, because I don't think the borg should have to give pause to something which is their one BSable action that night and is thus insanely valuable.

One thing I would like to note is that the "analyze" ability as suggested would not give a result until the end of the next day phase. It isn't like the Borg would instantly be in the hole on account of using the Black Suitcase to throw off the town--they would, if this were introduced to the game, just have to account for the fact that a stake-outer may not be fooled as easily as they often are now.

That said, the special SI suggestion is a fair compromise of the idea (though it needs a new label because it will be confusing for people who think they have an all-inclusive SI when they really don't; maybe use "inspect" or "examine" or something) and is a more balanced option to introduce to the game as far as I can tell.

yeah, I figured it'd be day-after (like kogoro's), but I still stand by my idea

and yeah, you wouldn't call it SI, instead you'd call it something like "Stake-out investigate" (much like mitsuhiko's investigate is "DB investigate") or a more crazy name.

[miikosan]

I cannot bring myself to read through 10+ pages of suggested changes D:

Can anyone just sum up what are the recent suggested changes after Akonyl's round? I'd like to have an overview of them and give my opinion (but I've been way too busy and now am getting very lost at the amount of details)

New roles? New abilities? Changed abilities? Stuff like that.

My concerns are as follow:

- detention is too strong a town ability
- BO should be able to APTX jailbirds (the story is they sneaked the poison into the food for prisoners)
- Camel/Jodie's too weak (that's the popular belief, I think so too; they should be protectors who can protect themselves as they know self-def and such; however they will not get to know the attacker's identity, just that their targets were attacked)

And I can't think of any right now...