Chekhov's theories about the plot

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 7th, 2010, 7:18 pm

I broke the 50,000 character limit for a single post with my previous speculations document, so I've decided to be egocentric and post a separate topic for all my stuff in several pieces to get around this. Sorry about this everyone. - Note Abs. stickied this topic. Also, from this point on, please consider yourself warned per Story Discussion Guideline #4!

Any copied lines/similarities to DCW wiki material is not coincidental. I wrote a good chunk of the Black Org related wiki info and a lot of what I wrote there was copied from my personal notes which I also used here.


Black Organization Boss knowns and Speculation
Manga based information on the boss
Boss’s Personality/Background
Boss’s opinions/relations
Boss’s Location
Boss’s Age

From the extra Detective Conan books:

Not the Boss list (DCW link)

Personal theories about the boss

Stuff about the Black Organization in General
Connections, quirks, other notables
Modus Operandi
Black Organization Children
Black Org’s goal
APTX 4869
Silver bullet
Programming agenda
Ultimate Goal
Other Organization divisions
Current Internal Affairs
Relevant Quotes
Nanastu no Ko

Vermouth/Chris Vineyard/Sharon Vineyard/Sharon’s mother and Sharon's husband
Cause of non aging appearance
Vermouth's known timeline
Vermouth stopped aging before APTX 4869 and Silver Bullet were made
Additional evidence Vermouth did not take APTX 4869
Additional evidence Vermouth did not take Silver Bullet
Some other compound must have caused Vermouth's aging problem
Age and identity
Boss's favoritism
Traitorous behavior
Vermouth, her dislike of the Miyanos, and her secret she is trying to hide
Vermouth's personality change
Sharon’s husband

Info and Speculation about Individual characters
Assorted thoughts and information about Gin in general
Gin and Vodka
Gin and Akai
Gin and Miyano Shiho

Atsushi and Elena Miyano
Elena's Tapes and Silver Bullet

Sherry/Haibara Ai/Miyano Shiho
Shiho's hidden knowledge
Relationships with other Org members
Shiho's life vs Akemi's life

Mouri Kogoro
Agasa Hiroshi
Agasa’s long lost love Kinoshita Fusai/Fusae Campbell and Billy
Rum and the Akai Clan, Bourbon arc theory archive

Known Black Organization Targets/Contacts who are not main characters

Cases where known Black Organization related material showed up, but the black org was not noticeably involved

Cases where possible Black Organization related material showed up, but the black org was not noticeably involved

Potential protagonist connections to the Org. or other factions

Unidentified suspicious people.

Recurring Minor Characters

Rum and the Akai Clan, Bourbon arc theory archive
Rum hunting guide
Akai family theories

Bourbon arc theory archive: Okiya Subaru, Amuro Tohru, Sera Masumi, Bourbon and the rest

Assorted other references and miscellaneous lists and arguments

Recurring plot devices

Exchanges I thought were interesting

Questions I wish I knew the answers to

Stuff that still bothers me

Soft theories
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on August 6th, 2016, 5:40 pm, edited 23 times in total.
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Boss of the Black Organization

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 7th, 2010, 7:19 pm

Black Organization Boss knowns and Speculation
See also DCW copy

--Manga only based observations and theories--

Boss's Personality/Background.
1) The syndicate leader uses the song “Seven children/ Seven year old child” to encode his/her email. It is likely the Boss is probably Japanese, grew up in Japan, or had Japanese parents, relatives, or spouse as this children’s song is not well known elsewhere.
2) The operatives dress in black, which Akemi says is supposed to resemble crows. This is probably an expression of the boss’s dress code preferences. The choice to use Nanatsu no Ko as a phone number is probably also a reference to crows as well.
3) The boss gives out alcoholic themed codenames.
4) The Organization uses clever codenames, passwords, etc. based on mysteries and history. If the boss is behind the naming scheme then perhaps the boss has an interest in detectives and mysteries.
5) The Organization has ties to America although the overseas components occur before the current storyline. The involvement of the American intelligence agencies is testament to this. Perhaps the boss has spent some time in America as well, although that’s not a requisite.
6) The boss is very careful. In file 704 Vermouth says, “The boss is always careful to the extreme. He’s the type to ruin the plan by overthinking it.” (Endless Youth scan.)
7) The boss is the type of person who even the FBI and CIA, who has his phone number, can't find. This may mean the boss has thoroughly erased his identity from records and is good at hiding, or the boss is the type of person the FBI and CIA would never have considered to be a possible suspect.

Boss’s opinions/relations.
1) Vermouth is the boss’s favorite so he/she allows her some independence and overlooks some of her potentially dangerous behavior. It’s confusing why Vermouth is the boss’s favorite when she is the type to actively engage in behavior which is encouraging the syndicate’s downfall - like protecting Conan and allowing Ai to escape. (The boss doesn't know the specifics of course) I have a hard time believing the boss could not see that it is within Vermouth's personality to harbor sympathies or engage in behavior which is counterproductive to the org. Obviously, Vermouth has some characteristic that makes up for her actions. (The failure to age possibly?) At the same time the leader can also command the absolute respect of a difficult person like Gin who vocally despises traitors. Why would Gin follow a person who tolerates rogue agents like Vermouth? (All of this makes me wonder what exactly makes Gin so loyal.) Whatever the reason, the boss clearly knows people well enough to balance these contradictory personalities and their agendas successfully.
2) The Boss thought Akai Shuuichi could become the org’s silver bullet. (434) In that regard he/she's more like Vermouth than Gin who doesn't believe a single person who can take the syndicate down in one shot exists.

Boss's Location.
The infamous Nanatsu no ko number might have a Tottori area code; however, the number, including the area code, was altered to prevent prank calls. In the star case in 45-9, Haibara reacts to the word Kurayoshi – a city in Tottori province. (466)

Boss's Age.
The organization, or at least the main biochemistry project, has been around for over 50 years. (file 189, but see the ep 130/131 for a better translation) If the boss has been the same for those fifty years, assuming the boss started the organization not earlier than 20, that would put him/her at 70+ years of age.
As a bottom end estimate, Haibara grew up within the organization and she hasn't mentioned there being a changeover in bosses. (Not that she mentions much of anything regarding the org…) Assuming she remembers things from when she was 13 when she codenamed and working, that would put the boss at around 25 years at a minimum; however, due to aging wonkiness, the boss may not appear to be as old as he/she is. The grammatical ambiguity of “Nanatsu no ko” allows “child of seven” to be a valid meaning, which would be suitable for a boss stuck in the body of a child due to some aging problem like Vermouth’s. Being stuck in a child's body would also explain why the boss conducts all business by text message or email, preventing lower level agents from hearing his/her youthful voice.

From the extra Detective Conan book.
Aoyama gave an interview for a book where he discussed the boss. The source posts for part of the interview are here ... entry67934

1) Aoyama had already put the name of the boss somewhere on the manga in some form or another. The time frame of the initial interview places this as before File 551. Note Gosho is specific about the name, not the actual character. It seems unusual to me to specify only the name of the boss has appeared if the boss has actually shown up in person. Thus, I view this as a suggestive hint that the boss himself/herself may have not appeared yet in the manga.
2) Aoyama suggested that the true name of the syndicate, which has also never been revealed, is tied to the identity of its leader. If the Black Organization's real name were revealed, everyone would know who its leader is. This seems like a pretty big hint. I strongly doubt Gosho would do something as direct as naming the organization after the boss's last name. Given the organization’s use of classic literature, especially of the mystery genre, and allegory, the organization’s true name is probably a clever reference or a play on words. Haibara likely knows it because when discussing the Organization with Shinichi, she sometimes says, "the people you call the men in black". (One example occurs when she pretends to shoot Conan in desperate revival. Use the anime translation.)
3) This part was not in the original interview, but has been widely reported. It is attributed to Volume 19: The Case Closed Casebook. Aoyama also said that Ai would be really shocked if she discovered who the boss is. “It’s someone that Haibara would never have expected.” Ai is very paranoid and untrusting, so the condition that the identity of the boss would really shock Ai helps narrow down the cases. There are several possibilities.
1) She trusts this person dearly. There’s a pretty limited number of people that fit this criteria and most of them seem to be dead or are protagonists and therefore very unlikely to be the boss.
2) The person wouldn’t fit Ai’s expectations
2.1) The person seems "useless" or of unsuitable personality to actually think of them as being a mastermind behind a large organization. Ai would have had to meet this person personally so that she could gauge their personality and subsequently write them off as unlikely to be anyone of consequence. This person would almost certainly not trigger Ai’s “black org sense.”
2.2) The boss’s front job or status is unexpected like a policeman or a school teacher rather than a scientist, company boss, or political figure. It would have to be an unusually benign front to really shock Ai. This person would probably not trigger Ai’s “black org sense” either.
2.3) The “evil relative theory”: one of the protagonist’s relatives is the boss or has a direct connection to the boss. The unlikelihood that the honestly good protagonist has some sort of connection to the head of the evil syndicate makes it shocking. The boss could also literally be Ai’s blood-relative, but considering her family’s underworld connections, I’m not sure that Ai is naïve enough to assume that one of her relatives couldn’t be the boss.
2.4) The person's age is unexpected. Given the aging wonkiness that has gone on there is a possibility that the boss could even be a “child” somehow mucked up by drugs or whatnot which would explain why the boss only uses email to avoid allowing people to hear his/her youthful voice and avoids letting people meet him/her (although this behavior can simply be explained as generic cautiousness). In this case, Shiho wouldn’t need to have met the boss before to be surprised.
3) She thinks this person is dead. Her parents would be an example of this, although that means they ordered the death of both of their daughters. Shiho’s mom especially seems unlikely to do so based on the tapes.

Not the Boss list.
Boss likelihood list: A list of evidence for specific characters analyzing how unlikely they are to be the boss of the Black Organization

Personal theories about the boss.
This section is reserved for theories about the boss that are primary speculative and based on hunches rather than firm evidence. These are nowhere near the caliber of my usual speculations, so take them with a grain of salt please.
TLDR: These are nice stories, not serious theories

Boss's name appearance in the manga
This post assumes I have a correct kanji transcription. If this turns out to be incorrect, please disregard this.
See also: This post in English, This post (7/31/12-8/1/12) (missing but here is a reference to it), in German.
As mentioned above, Aoyama said he put the boss's name in the manga. I think it is a name from the guestbook Hattori was holding in the Mermaid case (Volume 28, File 8, page 12: "The Devil's Arrow"). Unfortunately, I do not think that the name is his real one, but instead a pun.
Spoiler: guestbook blown up

The relevant name in the book is Ooguro/Daikoku Rentarou ( 太郎)
【おお】 (pref) big; large
【くろ】 (n) black
【むらじ】 (n) (arch) Muraji (hereditary title; orig. one of the two highest such titles, later demoted to seventh highest of eight)
太郎 【たろう】- Son. By itself it usally means eldest son, but when prefixed you get other meanings like Kintaro ("Golden Boy"), or Momotaro (Peach Boy)

This roughly works out to be "Big Black Seventh Child", a reference to crows and Nanatsu no ko (Seven children/child of seven). Unfortunately, I do not think this is the boss's real name. Vodka signed Conan's guestbook with what is clearly a fake name because the combination of characters is not proper. While Shiho signed with her real name, I don't see a reason why the boss would if Vodka didn't. A later interview suggested that the exact way he included the boss (or his name) is up for interpretation.

Important points to take away from this are that the Ooguro/Daikoku Rentarou may be the former foreign minister, a government officer, or Japanese general, but it isn't certain he is any of those because Hattori didn't specify whose names were what. It would be dangerous to assume he is a rich important person. Another point to take away is the name is signed separately from the other Black Org members. If the boss came, he did not group with Vodka, Shiho, and Gin. Maybe the boss didn't fully trust them or preferred not to be seen by them or with them. Lastly, the name Ooguro/Daikoku has shown up in connection with the Black Organization before: it was the name of the building with the exploded bar that Tequila and Hideaki Nakajima met in. It may have shown up other times fan have not noticed yet.

The type of character I think the boss will be
History of theories: November 5th, 2012, November 22nd, 2011,May 06, 2011,Jan 05, 2014
This speculation is entirely based on hunches and the type of solutions I think Gosho likes. This is not meant to be a formal, evidential-supported theory about who I think the boss is (like Okiya = Akai), but a casual guess that may change with new info.

I think the boss is a male (see fake name used) between the ages of 60-90, but looks ~7 years old because he has stopped aging after being affected by whatever drug/accident also caused Vermouth to stop aging (Probably both were affected by the same incident). He has been stuck as a child for decades. (This might explain why DC has less than a year-long timeline - if Conan and Haibara have also stopped aging in addition to de-aging then their lack of growth would be noticeable after a year. It might also explain why Haibara skipped out on the medical exam besides avoiding Vermouth-Araide, she suspected she wouldn't be getting taller or heavier and wanted to avoid suspicion down the line.)
The boss uses the phone number Nanatsu no ko as an ironic reference to his current state because it can be taken to mean "child of seven". The boss conducts all business by text message or email, preventing lower level agents from hearing his voice; the boss does not want them to know about his apparent youthfulness, because it may be perceived as a weakness or incompatible with leadership ability. Vermouth knows the boss's true state though, so she is allowed to be by his side. Appearing to be seven years old explains why US law enforcement and spies have not been successful in tracking him down; he doesn't fit any reasonable criminal profile and likely has gone through a chain of fake identities.
Like Shinichi, the boss has all the benefits and weaknesses of being shrunken, but with much more experience. The boss has probably become an expert at putting on a false child personality and manipulating others to cover for himself, just like Shinichi is learning to do now. (Conan has one advantage I assume the boss does not - a temporary antidote, which will be critical in the final clash.) A shrunken boss feels thematically appropriate because he is an evil foil to Shinichi. He represents what Shinichi could become if he lost hope at ever returning to normal and became disconnected from his old life.

His nationality is probably Japanese or half Japanese with some tie to America or England to explain the FBI and CIA involvement. (I allow England because James Black is originally English as well as Elena and involvement in England isn't ruled out) He is a fan of detective works and very smart. He probably also has many criminal skills as well, child size permitting.

If the boss is shrunken as described, his situation would appear to conflict with the Organization's apparent goal of obtaining a de-aging/immortality/youth-causing formula. It would seem like the boss would resent such a goal after being stuck with the consequences. It may be that the boss needs the drug for someone else whom he loves who is aging naturally towards death. It would increase the boss's parallels with Shinichi if this someone was like Ran, and he has been hiding his identity from her until he can alter her age to match his. It also may be that the boss wishes to return to his normal age, but needs the original drug redeveloped before an antidote can be discovered. Assuming the boss shrank 50 years ago, chances are the hypothetical woman would be at least 68, meaning the boss is running out of time. This might explain why Shiho was pressed into service at such a young age to take up her parents' experiments. The boss is thus fighting desperately against the stream of time, searching for a dream-like solution that would allow them to reunite. (Explaining why struggling against the flow of time comes up thematically, "We can be both of God and The Devil, since we’re trying to raise the dead against the stream of time..." (Vermouth File 398), "You can't complain about time going by... If anyone tries to change it... Life will punish them." (Ai: File 191.11)) This sort of story also resolves the apparent contradiction between the da Vinci May 2014 interview where Gosho says the goal of the Organization is not immortality while a significant body of evidence suggests that APTX 4869's ultimate purpose is anti-aging/immortality. The ultimate goal of the boss is to have a second chance at life with someone, and the drug is one means to that end.

A situation involving a woman the boss is hoping to reunite with could explain many of Vermouth's behaviors. If Vermouth was close to the boss prior to the shrinking incident, or even had a one-sided attraction to him, then it would explain the oddly conflicted behavior she has about the destruction of the Organization and a few of her mysterious quotes. She is loyal to the boss, even more so because they share their fate, but she hates that the boss is losing himself in his obsession, going so far as to create a criminal empire to get the funding for the research he needs. To save the boss from himself, Vermouth needs a silver bullet to bring the boss closure in defeat, and Conan, who is in a very similar situation, is the type of person to do that.
This would also explain why Vermouth considers Haibara a person who must die. Haibara's APTX 4869, now that it is known to work, or her antidote would give him hope when Vermouth thinks he needs to move on.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on February 7th, 2016, 4:39 am, edited 37 times in total.
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Black Organization in general

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 7th, 2010, 7:19 pm

Stuff about the Black Organization in General

Structure and divisions and ranks diagram.
For more facts about rank and division see the wiki article for the Black Organization.

Rank and division are not necessarily correlated. Higher ranking codenamed individuals have greater access to the Organization's internal information that lower rankers aren't allowed to see. (824)

Connections, quirks, other notables.
1) The B.O has strong connections with computer programming and pharmaceuticals.
2) Someone in the B.O. has a fascination with detectives and mysteries. (the boss?) Examples of this detective fascination include:
a) APTX 4869 (is a pun on Sherlock)
b) The computer password Shelling Ford, a prototype name for Sherlock Holmes
c) The computer virus called Night Baron (a character from Kudo Yusaku’s novels).
3) They aren’t afraid of putting operatives in very public positions like famous actress or famous announcer.
4) They have access to large amounts of advanced equipment and supplies including enough C4 to blow up a ten+ carriage train and a helicopter.

Modus Operandi.
1) The Black Organization commits crimes such as illegal deals, blackmail, robberies, and assassinations to raise money for research.
2) They seem to like to conduct business at the shipping yards, as the shipping yards have shown up in connection with the Org a couple times.
3) They are fond of knocking people off using a gun and then making it appear to be suicide, and destroying evidence via fire or explosion. The Black Organization tries to eliminate anyone who has knowledge of their existence and threatens to expose them. They won't hesitate to kill operatives who have become a liability, such as Akemi Miyano or even senior members like Pisco.
4) Ai thought Conan would be killed before he could be “studied” so it seems like the org’s first priority is to stay hidden and then get on with research.

1) The Black Organization's main project has been around for at least half a century. (V19-9) Haibara is thinking to herself… "Kudo-kun? You would probably never even dream that you are already part of a project the Black Organization has been working on already for half a century." (file 189, but see the ep 130/131 for a better translation)
2) The Org likely has ties to America because their history has an overseas component before the current storyline and the American intelligence agencies are actively trying to stop them. Jodie mentions that her father in the FBI was investigating Vermouth as Sharon Vineyard, and it was 20 years ago when Vermouth killed Jodie's parents and destroyed whatever evidence Jodie's father had collected. (433)

Black Organization Children.
Some of the Black Organization agents seemed to have been groomed for their eventual roles as children or teens. The Organization has been around long enough that the first generation of agents should have kids of age eligible to take over positions, as is the case with Shiho; however it isn't clear that these youth all originally had parents in the Organization or if they were promising individuals whose talents came to the attention of Black Organization scouts while they were young. (If the Black Organization does recruit children from the outside, do they still do so and is it possible any of the children and teens in the current timeline may attract their attention?)
a) Miyano Shiho was raised as a child and sent to America for education in preparation for taking over her parents research by the age of 13. We know she was this young because Akai started infiltrating the Black Organization five years ago. He did so by becoming Akemi’s boyfriend in order to get close to Shiho and use her influence to get in. (Manga Volume 58, File 2, pg 9: "Akai's Past") According to the FBI’s description, Shiho was “a scientist for them” at the time. Furthermore this took place in Japan since everyone was speaking Japanese, Akemi lived in Japan, and the FBI bust two years prior to the current timeline was in Japan (607 pg 8). If Shiho is 18 now, she would be 13 at the time Akai started infiltrating the Black Organization and she was already a scientist for them at this point and high ranked.
b) Amuro Tohru was also likely raised around Black Organization (despite his eventual job opposing them in the secret police). He reported meeting Akemi, Elena, and Miyano Atsushi before they died, and if it is assumed that the Miyano parents died 15-18 years ago, Amuro would be 11-14 when he met them. It's unknown whether he has any relations to other agents in the Black Organization (none seen so far have dark skin like him).

Black Org’s goal.
The Black Org is recruiting talent in biochemistry and computer science and funding research using the proceeds from their crime.
I’m favoring the idea that immortality or anti-aging is the ultimate goal of the biochemistry agenda and the APTX 4869 project.
The computer agenda may relate to viruses or programs to support for the APTX 4869 project, but I personally believe it has its own research goal separate but with the same theme as the biochemistry end: something related to immortality, enhancement or preservation of the mind. Whatever it is, it prompted the coerced programmer Suguru Itakura to say that he didn’t want to complete his program “for the sake of humanity”.


APTX 4869.
1) The anti-aging side-effects of APTX 4869 probably indicate main intent of the drug. It probably was just a useful side effect that it happened to leave no trace in the victim’s body, and was employed as a poison. After Pisco saw Haibara shrink back to her child form, he commented that he was impressed she had developed the drug to that point, implying that deaging is in the right direction. Supporting this is Ai’s line, "Kudo-kun? You would probably never even dream that you are already part of a project the Black Organization has been working on already for half a century." (V19-9 or file 191/ep 130-131) APTX 4869 is the only known intersection between Shinichi and the B.O. Also, APTX4869 was called the "incomplete detective" - which means its true purpose has not yet been achieved.
2) According to Haibara’s description about APTX 4869 (V24-10), APTX4869 activates telomerase, an enzyme which can increase the number of times a cell can divide, and therefore affect a cell's lifespan and “reproductive potential”. The goal of this might be to revert all non-neural cells to a "youthful", high reproductive potential state. A non-biologist like Gosho constructing the story might latch onto the idea that adding telomerase would increase the lifespan and number of divisions a cell could undergo, lengthening the organism’s lifespan or rejuvenating the body.
3) Miyano Shiho’s name was on the raffle list for the immortality arrows in the mermaid case in Fukui. (279-283)
4) Vermouth's unnatural youth is another indicator that the Organization is probably involved in research towards extending lifespan, immortality, or halting aging altogether. Vermouth hasn’t changed much since she murdered Jodie’s parents twenty years ago. [433]. There is obviously some important plot related reason behind it, as it wouldn’t make sense to include random aging issues for no good reason.
5) If the organization from Magic Kaito is the same Black Org, then the search for “Pandora’s box” (the jewel for immortality) pretty much gives it away; however the MK Org is almost certainly not canon to DC. Apparently, Gosho confirmed in an interview somewhere (no primary sources currently) that the two Orgs are not related at all, so this point is moot.

Silver Bullet.
Elena called the project the Miyanos were working on before they died "Silver Bullet" and they and their labmates had high hopes for the dream-like drug. (821) Silver bullet may be the Miyano parents' nickname for the project that would eventually be more officially called APTX 4869 (boss renamed it because he wanted a mystery reference?). I think it is clear Silver Bullet and APTX 4869 are both the same project.
Haibara took over her parents' research after they died, with the APTX project named specifically. After watching Haibara shrink, Pisco, who knew about the project the Miyanos worked on, commented that Shiho's parents would be proud of the progress Shiho had made on the drug.(V24-11 pg9) This implies they worked on the same project as Shiho, and Silver Bullet was apparently the last project they undertook before they disappeared. During her recollection of the tapes, Haibara was holding and considering the antidote to APTX 4869. She then regrets that she didn't understand the drug was something that should have never been made, strongly implying she worked on the same drug as well. Lastly, Vermouth, who was in the Organization long enough to have heard the Miyanos use the name Silver Bullet, may have given Conan the same nickname in reference to his deaged state caused by the drug.

Programming agenda.
There is a severe lack of evidence about the Organization programming agenda which makes any speculations, including the below theories, sketchy. Basically all that we know about the agenda is that it is something especially difficult because the world's best programmers are needed, and programmers who had specialized in games, graphic design, and special effects are relevant. Detective Conan was planned in late 1993, which was about the time the internet began to rise, and the first references to the Black Org's computer agenda were in 1995 for the Night Baron virus and 1996 for Tequila in games.
Although I am not really confident with this, I believe that the computer programming agenda is working towards the same goal as, but independent of, the APTX 4869 project. I have three main suspicions about what the Org is trying to do with the computer programming agenda.
One is to enhance the abilities of the mind through computer interfaces, basically to augment the brain with data stored on a computer. The problem here though is that this is worthwhile and not all that frightening, not something someone would not want to complete for the sake of humanity as Itakura said.
The second is to create a vast information and monitoring network. I got this idea from the Sherlock Holmes canon. "He [Moriarty] sits motionless, like a spider in the centre of its web, but that web has a thousand radiations, and he knows well every quiver of each of them". It would certainly help with crime, and would also fit the bill for being bad for humanity, but why would Itakura, a game programmer, be working on something like this to begin with, even if it was a personal project?
The third theory is based on an alternate way of gaining immortality: preserving one's mind eternally using programs to create a perfect replica of the thought processes of a human on a computer, basically digitizing people. It is an AI based project, which fits for a game programmer, would require the smartest programmers known, and taken to a logical extreme becomes bad for humanity. However I also think it is also kind of "out there" for a theory.
So in conclusion, I really don't know what's going on with the programming stuff.

Ultimate Goal.
Gosho stated in an interview that immortality is not the BO's goal; however that appears to contradict with the large body of manga evidence listed above arguing that APTX 4869 is intended to have immortality or anti-aging uses. The easiest way to resolve this apparent conflict is to consider that APTX 4869 and the programming agenda may be the means to a very particular end -- a true goal -- which is personal to the boss. I suggested, as a no-evidence example, that the boss could be trying to save/reunite with a loved one.

Other Organization divisions.
According to the Conan Drill (pg 237) the Black Organization is broken into divisions under three general categories: Internal Division (内部活動部隊), External Division (外部活動部隊), and General Oversight (全体監視役). Under the Internal division there is drug development, and in the external division there are software development, reconnaissance, fundraising, and operations which has robbery and assassination subdivisions. (See the wiki article for more info) That said, these may not be the only divisions. It is likely the Black Organization has an external drug development division and an internal software development section as well.

Internal software development division
The Black Organization has significant data and research holdings and a network its agents can use to access it. Since a lot of it is highly secret and dangerous in the hands of outsiders, that strongly implies there is someone(s) within the Black Organization who manages their software and systems. They may have coded Vermouth's bomb detonator ap. The internal software division probably pieces together the various software that is extorted from outsiders by the external software development division.

External drug development division
The internal drug development division probably has a matching external version as well. Like the Tequila's job in the external software division, the external drug development division would be responsible for the identification, recruitment, and possible extortion of talent like the Miyanos. The external drug development division would probably also manage any front companies or drug-related bribery schemes. Recall that Shiho had lab space in a publicly known pharmaceutical building (which was burned). It is unclear whether that pharmaceutical company was entirely a BO-owned front company that produced research for its benefits, or if the Bo had made a deal with the company owners to lease the space. Either way, since the pharmaceutical company business is highly visible, it suggests the affair should be handled by a group responsible for drug related public affairs: an external drug development division.

Current Internal Affairs.
-work in progress-
(Internal cleansing as spoken of by Gin, Sherry's gone leaving the biochem project hanging, another shrunken person and what that implies about the usage of the drug, Vermouth's movements, is there some time constraint?)

Relevant Quotes.
"We can be both God and Devil since we are trying to raise the dead against the stream of time" Vermouth (380.13)

“You can’t rush things. Humans can never go against the stream of time. If man forcibly tries to change that there will be punishment” – Haibara (20-1, 380.17)

"No, I can't finish it... I won't. That program must not be completed, not for the sake of my vision but for humanity" - Itakura's December 22nd diary entry (37-8, 380.11)

.Interviewer: "What is the BO’s goal? Going by the APTX4869, I would think immortality…" (「黒ずくめの組織の目的とはナニ? APTX4869の作用から考えると、不老不死が怪しいのでは……。」)
Aoyama Gosho: "That’s wrong. It’s true that you’d think that, isn’t it? You see, right now, something really big is happening within the organization." (「違います。確かにそう思っちゃうよね。今ね、組織の中では大変なことが起こっていますよ」)
- Leaked interview notes from the May issue of the magazine 「ダ・ヴィンチ」 (da Vinci) with the fans/reporters/whatever, leaked April 15, 2014:

Nanastu no Ko. - Information sourced from Willamette personal page of "rloftus"
“Nanatsu no ko” is a children's song published by 野口雨情 Noguchi Ujō 1921. The title can be translated as either seven children or child of seven (seven-year-old child), but the intended meaning was never clarified by the poet. See This page for the translation of the lyrics.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on June 27th, 2017, 5:12 pm, edited 22 times in total.
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Vermouth/Chris Vineyard/Sharon Vineyard/Sharon’s mother and Sharon's husband

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 7th, 2010, 7:20 pm

Vermouth/Chris Vineyard/Sharon Vineyard/Sharon’s mother and Sharon's husband
Please refer to Vermouth's wiki article. It is really quite good as a reference and explains a lot of things. In general there is a lot of unresolved stuff about Vermouth which I will try to cover most of here.

Cause of non aging appearance
Vermouth's lack of aging is probably caused by some unknown, unmentioned substance that predates APTX 4869 or Silver Bullet. Furthermore, this substance was likely created by someone other than Elena and Atsushi Miyano. The line of logic to reach this conclusion is explained below. Note that this theory assumes Sharon and Chris are the same person.

Vermouth's known timeline
This is Vermouth's known timeline with annotations for when certain hypothetical events should have taken place.

50-60 years ago - Sharon supposedly born
?? years ago - Sharon debuts on screen, her parents die in a fire
Sometime between 32 and <32 years ago - Sharon marries her husband (Sharon's age ≈ 18-28 minimum)
30 years ago - When Sharon should pretend to be pregnant with Chris to avoid potential maternity accusations down the line (Sharon's age ≈ 20-30)
30 years ago - the Miyanos are called in to research for the Black Organization
Sometime between 30 and <30 years ago - Sharon wins an Oscar, her husband dies.
~20 years ago - Sharon is doing disguise training with Toichi. She is already acting at this point (Sharon's age ≈ 30-40)
~20 years ago - Vermouth kills Jodie's father with a 20-30 year old face (Sharon's age ≈ 30-40)
~18 years ago: The Miyanos make a breakthrough with Silver Bullet (Sharon's age ≈ 32-42)
~10 years ago - Chris is old enough to switch into as a role, Chris goes independent from Sharon (Chris' age = 18-19, Sharon's age = 40-50)
~1 year ago - Vermouth manages to suddenly vault over a handrail from a dead hanging position while shot in the side. (Sharon's age ≈ 50-60)
< 1 year ago - Sharon dies (Sharon's age ≈ 50-60)
< 1 year ago - Chris comes out into public besides movies and publicity interviews. (Chris's age = 28-29)
Current - Akai nicks Vermouth's face with shot, proving her youthful face is genuine.

Did Vermouth deage, stop aging, or both?
In order to get a handle on Vermouth's timeline, it would be helpful to know what kind of aging-effects she experienced. Most of the evidence suggests that she is not aging, and did not de-age recently. The best evidence is that sometime between 30 years ago and 10 years ago, Vermouth created Chris so that she could switch over into a role 20-30 years younger than she appears to be currently. It makes more sense for Vermouth, who is aware she is not aging, to plan for an eventual switchover than it would be for her to create a second persona years in advance in anticipation of taking a compound that would deage her precisely 20-30 years. (And there is no clear evidence that the BO has such a compound anyway.)
Aboard the Belltree Express, in her discussion with Yukiko , Vermouth said "It's actually quite tough you know - pretending that it's not just your face, but everything about you that's aging too." (823 p2) While Vermouth may be lying, this does appear to be confession that she is not-aging rather than de-aged.

While Vermouth appears to have not-aged recently, keep in mind that she may have deaged some number of years in addition to having her aging halted when the triggering event occurred.

Vermouth stopped aging before APTX 4869 and Silver Bullet were made
At minimum, Vermouth would have had to stop aging sometime before she created Chris because there would be no reason to have Chris otherwise. That means Vermouth stopped aging at least 10-29 years ago, which is definitely older than Shiho's five year-old APTX project.
Vermouth's aging problem probably also predates the 18 year old Silver Bullet Project as well. Twenty years ago, with the same face she has today, she personally murdered Jodie Starling's father and burned all his files because he knew some vital secret. Also 20 years ago, Vermouth was Toichi's apprentice, learning disguise. While not conclusive, both those activities imply that 20 years ago or earlier she had stopped aging and was acting to protect this secret. Finally, there are the suspicious deaths of her family and husband to consider. Assuming she or the Black Organization killed them in order to hide her non-aging secret, her need for makeup skills, and fake pregnancy/child, that would place the timeframe of her non-aging event at least 30 years before the current timeline, matching when Sharon was 20-30 years old.

Additional evidence Vermouth did not take APTX 4869
Vermouth did not take APTX one year ago and become Chris as result. The APTX 4869 project, as made by Shiho, is only 5 or so years old, and Chris's creation predates it by a minimum of 5 years, discussed above. In addition, Sharon's body was youthful before her death less than a year ago. In the New York case, Vermouth managed to suddenly vault over a handrail from a dead hanging position while shot in the side. It would take a lot of strength training for even a 20-30 year old to do that while resisting the pain; I am not confident that a 50 year old woman's body could manage, even with extreme training.
Also, Vermouth could not take APTX 4869 to achieve her youthfulness unless she was willing to face near certain death trying it. Before Vermouth discovered Haibara and Conan, the known members of the Black Organization (besides Sherry) only knew about APTX 4869's lethal effects. We know this because Sherry didn’t tell anyone about the deaging mouse, or else the Org would figure out what had happened to her and how she escaped the locked room she was being held in, and APTX 4869 was considered deadly enough that Sherry's superiors employed it as an untraceable murder weapon.

Additional evidence Vermouth did not take Silver Bullet
Although Silver Bullet might be closer to the possible time frame when Vermouth de-aged, I do not think it is the answer. There is a strong suggestion that Vermouth's aging problem predates Silver Bullet. Even if you assume that's not the case, there is no evidence that Silver Bullet actually was a successful compound. In fact, it appears that it was probably the same project as APTX 4869 (discussed in the Black Organization section above.). It's hard to believe she would intentionally take such a drug. We also know she is the closest member to the boss for some reason (and not because she is the boss's lover because that would mean she is cheating on the boss with Gin), likely meaning she has been in the Organization for a while. Even Pisco, one of the older members, wasn't that close to the boss.

Some other compound must have caused Vermouth's aging problem
If Vermouth's non-aging start date predates Silver Bullet and APTX 4869, then there must be an unmentioned compound that is responsible. While it seems to violate Occam's razor to suppose the existence of another drug, there are good reasons for doing so. Shiho said the project of the Organization concerning anti-aging began over 50 years ago. This implies there was some research effort that long ago. Whatever it was must have been lost, or a singular unrepeatable fluke, or else there would be no need for the Organization to hire the Miyanos. One could hypothesize that the Miyanos were called in to research Vermouth and created Silver Bullet/APTX 4869 from their analysis. That would help explain why Vermouth hates the Miyanos and their project.

Age and identity
If Vermouth stopped aging 50 years ago per Shiho's project start date, she must be older than Sharon could be. The logical conclusion is that Sharon is yet another disguise. One obvious candidate for who she could be is her own mother, who suspiciously died in a fire on the day Sharon debuted. (vol 35-1 page 2) This theory works out well if Vermouth just stopped aging. Another option is that Vermouth took an alias (The last name "Vineyard" is awfully thematic for the Org, perhaps intentionally so?), created a false parents to go with her alias, and then "killed them" once she was positioned to begin her acting career that will help her with disguise. This version works well if the mysterious agent de-aged Vermouth enough that it was noticeable and then stopped her aging.

Here is an example timeline of events.
Spoiler: Vermouth timeline
•Vermouth is ~20-40 (50 years before the current timeline) - Vermouth is exposed to something that halts her aging, or de-ages her a little and then halts her aging with the net result that she looks between 20-30 years old. If Vermouth was exposed to something that halts aging, the person responsible for exposing her is likely to be working on a project with the intent of lengthening lifespan or something like that. Vermouth realizes she is not aging and she now knows she is going to need a false identity to switch into or else people around her are going to start to notice.

Vermouth creates a false child identity -Sharon. It isn't as hard as it sounds back then because there were no electronic records that are easy to check on and with bribery, fake papers, and whatnot, it's possible to create a proper paper trail especially if she has the Black Org's help (or what will become the Black Org). Vermouth could pretend her child was adopted or something like that at an older age so she could switch in sooner.

In the ~20 year interim between her current state she could become Sharon, she could work on disguise and acting, skills necessary for being an actress and for creating the appearance of a daughter if necessary. As Sharon’s parents are not famous actors, relatively few people are going to know or care about what they look like, and Vermouth can erase them when her Sharon actress role becomes popular and attention might be attracted to the parents.

•Vermouth is ~40-60 (30-35 years before the current timeline) Vermouth now has the ability to swap into her Sharon role who aged to approximately just graduated from high school age.

She rises to stardom and kills off the Sharon's mom role when she debuts in a movie and takes up Sharon's role in full. She uses a fire to obfuscate the replacement corpses and also to destroy evidence about what Sharon’s parents looked like and how they lived. In anticipation of future events, Vermouth starts working on backdating the Chris identity I assume by faking a marriage and pregnancy or something like that.

30 years prior to the current timeline, the Miyanos start their research
20 years prior to the current timeline, Vermouth kills Jodie's father
~20 years ago Sharon learns disguise from Kuroba Toichi (Yukiko learned disguise back when she was a beginning actress. She started her career while in high-school. Yukiko is 37)
~18 years prior to the current timeline: the Miyanos make a breakthrough with Silver Bullet

•Vermouth is ~60-80 (~10 years before the current timeline) Chris has become old enough (19) to disguise as because the Chris role has aged to approximately just-graduated-from-high-school age. She begins to work on Chris's stardom, but keeps Chris's private life a secret. This is referenced as the time Sharon last saw Chris.

•Vermouth is ~70-90 (<1 years before the current timeline) Vermouth kills off Sharon and takes up Chris full time.

Boss's favoritism
Vermouth is the boss’s favorite which grants her some independence. She has some very particular connection to the boss which Amuro seems to be holding over her head as blackmail. It could be a blood relationship, but I don't honestly know. Other reasons for being favorite include her lack of aging, and thus her status as a "project success". If Vermouth is as old as I suspect, then perhaps she even knew the boss before he/she started the Org and may one of the original -if not the first- members of the Org.

Traitorous behavior
Vermouth is oddly conflicted about the future of the Black Organization. Her actions suggest she hates its goal and wishes it was destroyed, but her lack of action to this end means there is something, maybe her relationship to the boss, which holds her back from undermining it herself. Instead she chooses Conan as her champion because he possesses the right sort of qualities she needs to end it. "If he could reach my heart, maybe he could be our long awaited silver bullet..." (V42-10 pg 18, note that reaching the heart is the natural consequence of penetrating the chest)

The evidence for her desiring to bring down the Organization is most obviously seen the quote above, coupled with her withholding important mission information like Shiho’s and Shinichi’s shrunken state from her coworkers which gives them a fair and fighting chance. Additionally, Vermouth does not interfere with Conan's allies or foil his plans unless it is something she personally desires (Shiho's death). She protects Kogoro and Conan from assassination. She does not alert her comrades about Conan’s interference in missions, like when she realizes that one of Conan’s bugs is creating static on their radios, she tells Gin “nevermind.”

While part of Vermouth's motives for protecting Conan may be to hide his de-aged state from the rest of the Organization for whatever reason (discussed in the section below), her true motive must include another reason because Vermouth goes further than necessary by making bargains and promises with Conan and his allies, and generally letting them do what they want to the Organization's detriment.
That said, Vermouth does not take all the action she could to sabotage the Organization's efforts, suggesting she is conflicted for some reason. She clearly dislikes the goal of the Organization (the Miyanos' project is foolish) and seems to care little for the success or failure of its other plans, like Kir's assassination plot (She almost saw it as a game - could Conan stop them in time?). If she wants the Organization to end, why not do it herself? By selecting Conan as her champion, it suggests either she cannot or will not, and she wants the Organization defeated in a certain way - the way Shinichi would do it, not the way of the FBI or the Police.

The next logical question is why would Vermouth resent the Organization, and what is holding her back from using her full power against it? I suspect Vermouth's resentment for the Organization's goals is related to her anti-aging condition. She may have been cynical about the Organization's goal from the beginning, or over time her experiences may have changed her opinions about long life. Changing her identity and faking her death means cutting herself off from her former friends and people who knew her, and it also means outliving many of her former friends, and having to lie all the time.
The reasons she is holding back probably relate to why she even joined the Black Organization in the first place; she still feels some allegiance to the people involved, if not their goals. The boss is a natural first choice for people who Vermouth could feel deep allegiance to, because Vermouth is the closest person to him. I think it would nicely explain Vermouth's behavior if she deeply cared for the boss as a person, but equally deeply regrets his creation of the Organization and his goals. Vermouth can't support outright undermining and betraying him, but in order to free the boss from his foolish obsession she thinks is harming him or others, she wants to find a way to end it. Conan is the perfect choice because he is the type of person who could provide some closure and serve the boss the defeat he needs to relinquish his ambitions.
As for other possibilities, Vermouth could also be held “hostage” in some way, but I don't think she would be as willing to obey the boss as shown after the showdown at the shipping yard if this were the case.

Gin seems to have noticed Vermouth's behavior change and is trusting her less. The conflicts between them have increased over the course of the current timeline. Gin and Vermouth are conflicting more on missions and mission aims, and Gin is more aggressively threatening her (the jazz bar, near Mouri Detective agency), undermining her (telling the boss about the off season Halloween party), and putting her in lethal situations (Bell Tree express). He also voiced concern about her harboring sympathies about Sherry implying he was worried her loyalty was wavering and she was withholding information from him. Also see this post.

Vermouth, her dislike of the Miyanos, and her secret she is trying to hide
Vermouth seems to dislike or has attempted to kill anyone who knows clearly about her aging situation. We know she has attempted to kill Shiho Miyano and Jodie Starling particularly, and has killed Jodie Starling's father who collected information on her. She threatened her friend Yukiko at gunpoint for poking around the topic, and is actively hiding Conan and Haibara from her coworkers so they do not learn about their deaging. It would not be past her to even kill the Miyano parents in a forged accident (and because she doesn't like them).

For a reason likely related to the Miyano's projects, she detests Miyano Shiho, and that dislike probably extends to Atsushi and Elena as well. Because Vermouth mentioned their science project being foolish (434), the source of her dislike may be the APTX 4869/Silver Bullet project. If they based APTX 4869/Silver Bullet off of research on her that they started 30 years ago, that means that Vermouth was their research subject. It may not have been a pleasant experience for her. Also, if Vermouth has become more cynical about her aging condition and the Organization's goals over time, then she would come to dislike Atsushi and Elena who are, in a way, a personification of the Organization's science goals. Vermouth being the source of info Shiho is basing her project on would explain why Shiho knows Vermouth well and is especially terrified of her, despite them being in different lines of work. Assuming Silver Bullet and APTX 4869 are the same thing, Vermouth nicknaming the APTX-affected Shinichi "Silver Bullet" may indicate she was involved in the earlier stages of the project development with the parents if she is using the Miyano's old nickname to refer to him.

Vermouth's personality change
Vermouth’s personality seems to less wicked and vicious compared to the little we know about how she acted one year ago and earlier. Most obviously, Vermouth went to self-endangering lengths multiple times to protect Conan and Ran. (Bus Jack, Party Showdown, Org vs FBI) Vermouth also went out of her way to be well liked while disguised as Dr. Araide; Vermouth was rather liked by students, so much that Araide asked Jodie if she was really a bad person. (459) She even plays along with Conan in Sato's matchup case. How much is acting and how much is really her personality? Twenty years ago she tried to find and kill the then child Jodie, but recently she tells Gin to ignore the kid that she interrogated to learn about Kir’s motorcycle accident. Of course, this doesn’t prevent her from doing horrible things in the present like blackmailing someone to murder, or using coworkers for her own ends that results in their deaths, but she is certainly a kinder person than most other loyal organization members we have seen so far.

Sharon’s husband
Sharon apparently had a husband who died. During the NY case, Sharon told a story to Yukiko, Shinichi, and Ran that Chris Vineyard came to the funeral disguised as her husband to harass her; this is impossible because Sharon is Chris. Did Vermouth really have a husband or did she create him with a disguise as well? The anecdote originally served to provide an example of Chris’s bad personality, but perhaps there is truth to the husband being alive to visit his own grave? If he is a real person, perhaps the funeral story of Vermouth's was inspired by something that happened almost like she described: the husband faked his death too and came to visit his own grave. Something like that would probably mean the husband is BO, but who knows if he is even real to start with? I won't speculate much without more information.

•Agasa said Chris was a “second generation actress” meaning Sharon’s mom wasn’t an actress. (34-2 pg 8)
•Vermouth would have had to have known Dr. Araide well to successfully take his place. Vermouth seems to have a decent amount of medical knowledge as she was able to pass at being a school nurse and taught back exercises to the principal (458). This is extremely difficult as medical knowledge requires a large amount of high degree of training and memorization. It's not something one could fudge. Perhaps Vermouth had medical experience at one point? It might make sense if she was a scientist when she was exposed to whatever caused her cease aging then switched professions later.
•Jodie’s father in the FBI was secretly investigating Vermouth who was Sharon Vineyard at the time 20 years ago. (433) He found something incriminating enough so that Vermouth killed him and burned his house down with the info inside. My guess is that the info related to not aging and maybe her pre-Sharon role.
•Vermouth had a cat around her one year ago according to Itakura Suguru. (V39-6) The reason why her face was hidden at the time was because she was still in her Sharon role and Vermouth being Sharon hadn’t been revealed yet.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on February 3rd, 2015, 5:40 pm, edited 31 times in total.
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Speculation about individual characters

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 7th, 2010, 7:21 pm

Info and Speculation about Individual characters

Quick links to sections:
Atsushi and Elena Miyano
Miyano Shiho
Mouri Kogoro
Agasa Hiroshi
Fusae Campbell and Billy

Assorted thoughts and information about Gin in general
Gin shows remarkable loyalty to the boss of the org, but pretty much no one else including (especially) Vermouth. Gin is left handed. (304) Has Gin has been to Germany because he got his Porsche from there?

Gin and Vodka
In the Conan Drill, Gin’s opinion of Vodka was listed “clumsy ‘little brother’” (not literally a younger brother, just someone treated like one) [出来の悪い弟分] and “valued for being obedient” (従順ふりを評価). Gin maybe has some loyalty for Vodka as a lackey, but Gin still pointed his gun at him which shows a lack of trust. For some reason, Gin seems to tolerate Vodka, despite the latter having less aptitude and tending to get caught in traps more easily. Maybe Vodka makes up for the fact that Gin has issues remembering people and faces.

Gin and Vermouth
See traitorous behavior section under Vermouth. Also see this post.

Gin and Akai
DC wiki article on the subject
It's never really clarified if Akai directly worked with Gin before, but it seems unlikely they had any extended contact given that Akai had just been given his codename “Rye” and was going to meet Gin to work under him. In addition, it seems Amuro was suspicious of Shuuichi being a spy, which probably would have held Shuuichi back from meeting upper level members if Bourbon had relayed his suspicions to Gin or the Boss. If the Black Organization made preparations like sending in a scout/whoever-that-old-dude-was (Bourbon in disguise?) ahead of time, it seems more like a first time major meeting rather than a re-meeting up. Kir didn't have to go through checks of that level before her mission.
I guess what induces the false feeling that Gin and Akai had worked together frequently is the fact they can predict each other’s actions fairly well and they have personal antipathy for one another that people who don't know each other well shouldn't have. We know Akai survived multiple attempts on his life, so maybe the rivalry developed when the FBI and Org fought during the two years after the FBI mission failed?

While Gin is shown to be vengeful, he is apparently satisfied with the orchestrator role and doesn't feel the need to personally kill Akai himself. In the Red Shirt's case while Gin was staking out the Beika department store waiting for scar Akai to appear, he replies to Kir's remark that "Why don't you [Gin]... just enjoy the fact your nemesis is gone?" with "Yeah, I'm so happy... If he is still alive, I get to kill him again." (V67-6 pg 3) This shows that Gin considers Akai's death as "his kill" even though it was Kir who pulled the trigger at Raiha pass, and if Scar Akai is killed, it will be Chianti or Korn who finishes the job.

Gin and Miyano Shiho
DC wiki article on the subject
Gin's connection with Sherry which has led to his obsession over hunting her down and her hatred and extreme fear of him probably goes back to a relationship they had before Shiho betrayed the Org.

Gin clearly knows Shiho personality very well as he can anticipate her movements despite having rather different lines of work. Shiho hardly knew most of the other agents in non-science related positions. She hadn't met Pisco since she was a baby, she had only heard of Korn and Chianti, and hadn't heard of Kir. Bourbon had met her family when she was young (perhaps because of Akemi), but she only mentions hearing of him rather than meeting him. Conan never asked about Tequila. Vermouth likely had a connection with the parents because of her apparent aging weirdness despite not being in science. Gin is on the business/assassination side of things, so it is anomalous how well he seems to know her given how she doesn't know much about anyone else outside of the research branch. They clearly have a connection outside of their professions to account for knowing each other so well. They must have spent lots of time together if Gin can identify her from a single hair with conviction.

There are various possibilities for relationships between Shiho and Gin, like childhood friends (age difference could be an issue), mutual relationship or one sided attraction or abuse (Age difference again is an issue and that Shiho was in America until recently), mentor-mentee, etc. There is a strong case to be made for a romantic mutual relationship or onesided attraction using a good retranslation of the first chapter of the Reunion with the Black Org (the Pisco case) (file 24-7 or 238, ep 176) where the translator pointed out the innuendo Gin was using. (The retranslation was by kentaru). The retranslated monologue of Gin's in the dream is as follows:

"This is the end of your wanton sporting... Now, wake up from your dream... Shouldn't we celebrate our reunion with your favorite color scarlet... right, Sherry?"

The translator also had a notes page from which I will quote a relevant section:
The betrayal theme:
In Ai's dream, Gin says Sherry's favorite color is scarlet and says "her wanton sporting is over" - what does he mean by that? A scarlet woman is an immoral woman, a prostitute. Wanton sporting is the same type of insult. He accuses her, in her dreams, of being sexually unrestrained. A correct translation of those terms is vital to understand what kind of character Gin is. Not only does he call her a betrayer, he also implied (several times) they had a relationship. I'm sure most readers wonder why he thinks of her nekkid and recognizes a strand of her hair. XD

Now, add this information to Gin's description of their meeting as a "reunion", him thinking of her in the nude, and Haibara yelling "Don't touch me!" when Ayumi places her hand on Haibara's arm, snapping her out remembering her dream. Furthermore, when the two of them meet on the rooftop of the Hyde City Hotel, there are more suggestive exchanges. Gin purposefully chose not to do his job in the most efficient fashion- shooting Shiho in the chimney- but instead chose to make a special exception for her by waiting out for her on the snowy rooftop because killing her there would be, paraphrasing, more beautiful. She even gets into the act by thanking him, albeit sarcastically, for "waiting for her in the cold"; Shiho seems to purposefully be alluding to the stereotypic scenario of one lover waiting for another in poor climate. Gin also makes a comment about her disguise, the uniform and the glasses, being unsuitable for her, which carries an implication that he thinks there is some other outfit which would be more suitable.

In conclusion, I think there is significant evidence that they had a romantic relationship going on between them because I don't think Gin would, even though part of it is a dream, phrase things like that for the heck of it. The rooftop exchange seems to corroborate with Gin's dream personality. Whatever kind of relationship they had obviously didn't work out, probably because of Gin's messed up personality. Based on the fact Gin is still obsessing, Shiho was probably the one to dump him.

Gin and Shiho's relationship has been mentioned in the official Conan Drill guidebook (Specifically it's the relationship diagram on page 239). I moved the arrow legend to the top to save space. Note it was written before the conclusion of the Vermouth arc before Gin had suspicions about Vermouth being up to no good and keeping dangerous secrets.
Spoiler: image of guidebook page and translation

Trans all by Abs. Hurray!

Work relationship

Love relationship

Feelings toward the other

- - >

Gin Shiho arrows
G ----> S
Abnormal attachment

G <===> S
Love relationship?

G ----> S
Valued as a researcher
Scorned as a traitor

G <---- S

Gin Vermouth Arrows

G ----> V
Activity partner

G <===> V
Sexual relations

G <-----> V
Colleagues. Trusted.

G <---- V
Good will

Shiho Vermouth arrows
Sherry <---> Vermouth
Love rivals?

Sherry ---> Vermouth

Sherry <--- Vermouth
Target, rivalry?

Atsushi and Elena Miyano
Atsushi Miyano was a researcher and apparently Ai’s father. Elena Miyano was British and apparently Ai’s mother.(424) According to the anime translation (345), they started the APTX research according to Vermouth. They made a promising breakthrough sometime between when Shiho was born and they died; they called this drug Silver Bullet. Both of them worked on the project before Shiho took over.
Atsushi was a “mad scientist” who was unpopular scientifically because his work and theories were not mainstream. Agasa was a distant acquaintance of Atsushi. Elena was known as “hell’s angel” for some unknown reason. It might be because of her apparently nice personality which set her apart from the darkness of the rest of the organization. Elena is probably the foreign half of Ai’s background. She wears glasses and has long hair. Atsushi Miyano’s appearance is unknown.

Atsushi Miyano moved out of his father's house where he was raised (423-425) thirty years ago because he had found someone to sponsor a theory of his and was going to join their large research facility. (This is the Black Organization) He got married in this time period and then visited his childhood friend, Souhei Degima, once later with Elena when Akemi was 4-5 years old. The visit most likely occurred about 20 years prior to the current timeline. The purpose of the visit was that Atsushi had something important to tell Souhei Degima, his childhood friend. Whatever it was encouraged him to violate his usual policy of keeping distant from his friend to avoid having the Black Org monitor them (which is what happened after the visit). It could be any number of things but it had to be pretty important because he only sent a card when he got married, and didn't tell Souhei about having Akemi at all. Maybe he needed help, or he was about to do something dangerous.

Elena's Tapes and Silver Bullet
Elena left four tapes for Haibara (425 and 427) before they left Shiho to finish the research Silver Bullet. (821) They are numbered 1-20 with the numbers split into groups of five. The numbers correspond to a message left by Elena for Haibara's same-numbered birthday; Conan listened to the beginning of the #11-15 tape and Elena’s recording was for 11-year-old Shiho. (File 425 p. 17). Conan mentioned that he moved to the 11 through 15 one because there were so many blank ones. I suppose the blank ones were some the earlier tapes (1-5 and 6-10) corresponding to when Ai was young. I wonder why they were blank?
I would like to note that in number 18, Elena talks about if Shiho will regret what she is about to do. My guess is that refers to Shiho taking over the drug research or returning to the org from her studies abroad. I wonder how Elena would have known what was going to happen to Shiho at that particular age?

In a flashback in 821, Shiho recalls the end of the recorded message in tape 18 left by her mother which revealed Elena had been working on "a truly terrifying drug" the Miyano parents called the Silver Bullet. It was something incredible enough that Elena said they were "putting their hopes on it", and Elena's lab mates had taken to calling it "a dream drug". It was important enough that Elena and Atsushi had to leave behind Shiho and Akemi in order to complete the drug. I think Silver Bullet was the Miyano parents' nickname for the APTX project, the evidence for which is discussed under the Black Organization's goal in the Black Organization section above.

Elena and Atsushi's deaths
Despite her cause of death apparently being an accident, for some reason Elena took the time to leave four tapes for Shiho meaning that Elena might have known something would happen or she was about to do something that she might not survive. On her tape for Shiho's 18th birthday, she mentioned she and Atsushi would have to "leave" their children behind to complete the drug Silver Bullet. That is an awfully ominous phrasing. Knowing they would die for some reason to try to complete the drug makes the most sense, especially after Atsushi decided to risk a sudden appearance at his childhood friend's house without the Org's trust right about the time that Silver Bullet neared completion (~20 years ago). Technically "leave" could also mean they had to relocate somewhere permanently, but there are few reasonable scenarios that explain why Elena and Atsushi had to enter permanent isolation.

Elena's comments about Silver Bullet are proof that the Miyanos were perhaps not ignorant of the risks of their project, whatever those risks were. Thus there is a reason to be skeptical the Miyano's deaths were just accidents like Pisco said. Pisco was high up and knew the parents, and if even he doesn't truth, the deaths of the Miyanos likely are related to some major internal secret of the Org and possibly the purpose of it.

It's possible they were killed by Vermouth, considering how much Vermouth hates the Miyanos and feels Shiho it is necessary Shiho be erased.

The Miyano parents were excited about their research, but seemed to also be trying to warn Haibara away from following in their footsteps, since Elena asks Haibara if she will "regret what she about to do" on the tapes. On the train, Haibara comments that she didn't realize the drug was something that should have never been made. Elena's personality seems to be kind to the point of earning the nickname hell's angel (angel which fell into hell). Assuming she wouldn't marry someone unkind, both of the parents seem to be different from the other Org agents. The parents were also followed when they went to Souhei Dejima's house. While research may be their main motivation for working with the Org, they may not have been fully loyal to the Org or its goals.

Elena seemed to be somewhat close to Akemi. For instance, Akemi was taken with Atsushi and Elena to the Miyano's old home. It was also Akemi who got the tapes for Shiho from Elena.

Vermouth said the following at one point: “If you [Shiho] want to blame someone, blame your parents who took over this foolish research.” (434) However it is translated differently by the more reliable DCTP in the anime as "Don't hate me, hate your foolish parents for starting this experiment”. (ep 345)

Name origin speculation

Sherry/Haibara Ai/Miyano Shiho

Shiho's hidden knowledge
Why is Ai so reluctant with details on the org? It is a convenient plot device to enhance the mystery. Besides trying to protect Conan, there may be more personal reasons. She probably knows a lot of "inner secrets." She uses the phrase (more than once I think), "the people you (Conan) call the men in black," which implies she knows another name for them, probably the syndicate's true name, but does not wish to tell Conan. (664.06) (One example occurs when she pretends to shoot Conan in desperate revival. Use the anime translation.) She also lies to Conan about losing the disk of APTX data she made at the Haido City Hotel. (You can see she has the bloody disk in desperate revival. 25.9/251 pg8 and ep188)
Spoiler: Not my pictures.

The other disk Haibara accidentally sent to Hirota Masami had "the real names and addresses of some people who had joined the Organization before Haibara and even the name of the person who had invested in the drug research" (V19-1 pg16) I imagine the info she ripped from Pisco's computer had similar information, especially since the title screen for the APTX 4869 page seemed to have an overview. It was sensitive enough that Conan would probably be able to do some damage with it. My guess is Haibara withheld the info because she was afraid that Conan was going to rush in and get killed, and maybe because at that time early in her character development she was afraid of what Conan would think of her if he knew the truth of what she had been doing.

Relationships with other Org members
She grew up in the org and many members knew what she looked like when she was younger like Pisco. On the other hand, it seems like she isn't particularly familiar with lower ranked members or those who are working in other divisions of the org like Chianti, Korn, and Kir. She is however at least familiar with Gin and Vermouth. She may have had some sort of special relationship with Gin which is covered in Gin’s speculation section. The same goes for Vermouth, of whom Ai is especially afraid. She did not know that Vermouth was Chris Vineyard at the party, although she sensed her presence. She recognized the name later though.

Shiho's life vs Akemi's life
Shiho was treated rather differently that her older sister Akemi. Akemi was allowed to live a rather normal life and was considered a low ranking member of the organization. Shiho on the other hand was sent to America for school, groomed to take over the Miyano’s research, and was a high ranking operative. Also Shiho and Akemi are rather different looking and are somewhat distant in age (6-10 years), which invites the possibility that their parents, perhaps one - perhaps both, aren’t the same. This may be the reason for their differing fates within the organization. Shiho is at least Elena's daughter, because Bourbon said they look very alike.

Mouri Kogoro
There is a conspicuous absence of anything pertaining to Kogoro's family background. Considering Kogoro is in the top three characters along with Ran and Conan, it's weird his family hasn't been mentioned even once regardless of whether they are alive or not. You would think Gosho would want to write a dramatic case where one of Kogoro's family members is a case suspect or a victim. Considering the length of the manga and that character family related stories are otherwise quite common, I believe this omission is intentional. I can think of three reasons why Gosho would not want to introduce a relative of Kogoro too early:

a.) It would be too big of a hint.
b.) It would call unwanted attention and suspicion where Gosho does not yet want it.
c.) It serves as a major plot key which will enable Conan to solve a very important mystery.

Given that this censorship of Kogoro's kin has been going on since the very beginning of the manga, it would be logical to assume that the reason is pertinent to the overarching mysteries - namely what is the true nature of the Org, who is the boss, and what is its goal.
Also assuming Gosho had some idea what the end of DC should be when he began writing it, he would probably construct the ending so that in case DC turned out to be only sort of popular, he could end it quickly using the available characters which would be Conan, Kogoro, Ran, Agasa, the DB, and Megure. As DC became more complicated in the Haibara and then Vermouth arcs when more characters were introduced, he probably started expounding on the final solution while keeping the original core the same.

There are two main ways I think Kogoro could be connected to the Org:
a.) Someone(s) in Kogoro's family has a critical connection or position in the Org. I do not support the theory that Kogoro himself is part of the Crow Corps, but with the family name "Mouri", and its difficult-to-ignore resemblance to "Moriarty" from the Sherlock canon, I think that this theory concerning relatives on the dark side holds thematic appeal. (Yes, I know about Mouri and Maurice Leblanc, but a double pun is possible. Mouri/(モウリ)/[Mouri] vs. Moriaty/(モリアーティ)/[moriaati] vs. and Maurice/(モーリス)/Moorisu)
b.) Someone(s) in Kogoro's family was a victim of the Org, and that the circumstances/mystery behind it are a major clue to one of the central mysteries like the identity of the boss, or the org's name, etc. Basically this case from Kogoro's past is the case that lets Conan get the info he needs to really crack the Org mystery open.

In short, I believe it is reasonable to assume that Kogoro has (or had) one or more plot-significant family members who have (or had) vital connections to the Black Org, as either victims or members.

As for Kogoro's background, we know he went to Teitan high along with Yukiko Fujimine and Eri Kisaki, followed by Beika University where he was in a Judo club. Ten years ago he was still on the police force and had to deal with a murder mystery at a warehouse in Haido port. Apparently it was pretty dangerous at that time (571). While Movie 2 strongly suggests that Kogoro left the police force because of the incident where he fired upon Eri Kisaki who was held as a hostage, his reasons for leaving the force were not confirmed.

Agasa Hiroshi
Agasa probably has a deeper connection to the BO then he knows. Plotwise, I imagine he will mostly be used to connect Conan to or know info on people related to the research branch of the Org., and maybe a little of the history. Fusae may throw a distant connection to Akai into the mix.

Agasa seems to know the Miyanos as acquaintances who worked together perhaps. Agasa went to Okuho middle school (572.10) His family moved to Japan soon after the end of fall term of his sixth grade after he met Kinoshita Fusae. (410.08-10) Agasa was living in Japan before his family moved and I assume he changed his address when they arrived. He has a rich accountant uncle named Kurisuke Agasa (who lent Agasa his house?); he died 50 years before the present timeline at the age of 38 (111.06). The uncle liked gadgets. The sister of his uncle (Agasa’s aunt) was named Teiko who was alive until a year ago when she passed away at 76. (111.07). Agasa’s cousin’s granddaughter is of the right age to be introduced to Takagi. (208)

Agasa’s long lost love Fusae Campbell and Billy
Agasa’s long lost love (412) Kinoshita Fusae (also called Fusae Campbell) is a part foreign, 49-50 years old, who designs of handbags with a ginkgo leaf brand name. She is very young looking for her age, has golden colored hair, and wears a dark grey low hat. She has one foreign parent. Kinoshita Fusae left suddenly for some reason during the school year and has a stepfather currently. Her stepdad has a friend named Billy whose wife likes Fusae’s purses.

Fusae may be related to the magician Kinoshita Yoshirou (木之下吉郎) who died 14 years ago in accident while practicing a magic trick. (mentioned in Manga Volume 14, File 2, Page 10 and chap 192) He shares the same maiden name as Kinoshita Fusae. The kanji spellings of the two’s last names (木之下) are identical, which is noteworthy because the spelling is a rarer variant. (The most common spelling is "木下", and “木ノ下” is another variant)

Okiya Subaru, Scar Akai, Sera Masumi, Amuro Tohru, Bourbon, Akai Shuuichi: click here
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People who have or may have connections to the Black Organization, Recurring Minor Characters

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 7th, 2010, 7:21 pm

Known Black Organization Targets/Contacts who are not main characters.
Now mostly superseded by the wiki version of this list. Any additional comments not made in the wiki will be below.

All the People from the APTX victim list: Names here

Miyano Akemi and the billion yen robbery gang – See wiki. More about Akemi is covered in the speculation about Shiho and her parents section.

Hideaki Nakajima - The Daiko building where he had met Tequila originally is written with the kanji "big black" (大黒ビル). Another pun.

Hirota Masami - It isn't clear whether the Black Organization wanted to kill him because he was a possible connection for the escaped Shiho, because he accidentally recieved an APTX disk, or both. Vodka tried to set him up by disguising his voice and leaving a message on his answering machine pretending to be from "Kuro Life Insurance". "Kuro" is nearly homophonous for black, and the irony of an assassin offering life insurance is self-explanatory.

Jazz club man - Vodka makes it sound like his drink was poisoned (he didn't even suspect that that drink would be his last), although probably with something that doesn't act straight away. It would match with Vermouth's joke in serving Gin and Vodka "suspicious" drinks.

Nomiguchi Shigehiko - Although it wasn't stated who bribed him, it was probably the Organization.

Itakura Suguru, age 45, was a famous CG graphic designer/games system engineer who also worked on special effects for films. (377-383) He probably owns Itakura studio. Three years before the current timeline, he stopped developing CG and a particular program due to poor eyesight. Two years ago Tequila showed up at his office to say he was interested in the particular “system software” Itakura stopped developing. One year later, he was later forced to finish the program with a year deadline by Vermouth over the phone. Itakura didn’t want to complete the program “not only for his eyesight but for the sake of humanity.”(380) He stayed in New Beika Hotel where he was killed by an unrelated party. He kept a diary and noted Vermouth had a cat around when he talked to her. (V39-6) Conan pretending to be him was told to put the disk in locker 1012. Conan pretending to be him was told to put the disk in locker 1012. Itakura also helped provide many special effects for films and plays Vermouth and Yukiko Kudo were in. This is presumably how Vermouth hired him for the Organization's research as she was seen arguing with him on sets, something she never did with anyone else.
Based on the journal, it sounded like Itakura was programming that particular program on his own before he was contacted by the Org, and then stopped because of his eye-sight. The Org later contacted him because they wanted him to restart work on the program. Itakura’s program is something an ordinary person would program; specifically someone who programmed games. It probably was a personal project of Itakura's as he was able to stop developing it on a whim; something he wouldn't be able to do so easily if he was paid to make it. If it is a personal project, it doesn't have to be specifically related to games. It could be something related to game development like artificial intelligence, networking, modeling, rendering, etc, or it could be something completely different. It was probably Sharon who found out about it because he and she had overlapping work in the movie industry. It doesn't seem to be something that Vermouth custom ordered for herself because the other Organization members are involved.

Degima Souhei (54) - Ai’s father’s childhood playmate. He hasn’t seen Miyano Atsushi for thirty years, so they were friends until their twenties which was when Atsushi left to join a "large research facility" that had decided to sponsor him (the Black Organization). Souhei has lived in the house that Prof. Miyano inherited from his father (Ai’s grandfather) for 30 years. 20 years ago, Prof Miyano and his wife Elena stopped by with Akemi who was 4 or 5 years old (they were in the org at this time) to tell Souhei something important but Souhei was out so Atsushi never got to say what it was. Presumably Ai hasn’t been born yet. Degima Souhei started being watched by the Organization during their visit; a black car with tinted windows was parked outside their house. Akemi came back as an adult and hid tapes of her and Shiho’s mother in the toilet (how long ago?).(423) Afterwards the BO broke in to investigate secretly, found nothing and planted an listening device, and then took back the listening device when nothing relevant was discussed. Souhei Dejima was killed by someone unrelated to the Black Organization.

Funemoto Touji: a boy that witnessed Kir's wreck when the FBI attempted to capture her. Vermouth interrogated him later and found out that Kir had gotten into a severe accident and would most likely be in a hospital. The FBI protected Touji to be safe which the Black Org found out about (599), meaning he was being monitored to an extent although they didn't seem to be interested in him. (556). Vermouth dismissed the importance of the child to Gin.

Cases where known black org related material showed up, but the black org was not noticeably involved.
The Night Baron Virus mystery tour case (72-77) takes place at the Princess Hotel in Izu. Agasa heard about it from a professor friend who found it in turn on a web forum. Agasa, the professor and his granddaughter were set to go on the tour until the granddaughter got sick. The sponsor of the tour is one of the ten participants in six groups and acts as the Night Baron to cause trouble. Presumably whoever is first to guess/prove who is the Night Baron is the winner of the contest and will receive a floppy copy of the virus. It is unknown why Agasa or his friend wanted to win the floppy. The night baron virus was used to infiltrate/mess with the data of large business companies and is rather stealthy. Apparently, anyone who knows about computers knows about Night Baron. (73.10) The sponsor of the tour wound up killing one of the participants to avenge her brother’s suicide. The sponsor never had a copy of the virus.
Frankly I am rather surprised that the black org would not have been watching that case closely because it is a virus they likely created.

Cases where possible black org related material showed up, but the black org was not noticeably involved.
There is a mention of a large Robbery Syndicate whose headquarters and warehouse are in Tottori. There are a lot of suspects. They have also committed many murders. They apparently also messed up the security of a whole company. Is it the org? (450)
Policeman Chousuke Takagi was sent to Tottori to help clean up a large robbery ring that has broken through a large company’s security and also murdered people. (450-452)

Kurayoshi city (倉吉市), Tottori. Haibara has a strange reaction Kurayoshi or perhaps Tottori in general. She wonders “Kurayoshi, Kudo, you don’t mean to…” (466)

That one Kaito Kid chapter with Ren'ya Karasuma's house (the gathered detectives case) (299-302). Note karasu = crow. I wonder if that house had anything to do with the org because of the symbolism and the age of it. It’s unlikely in my opinion.

Potential protagonist connections to the Org. or other factions.
1) Link to Mouri Kogoro
2) Link to Agasa Hiroshi
3) Dr. Ariade may have some additional relevance to the story. Someone mentioned that in an interview Gosho said that Dr. Araide would get in some hot water for conducting his own counter investigation after the Vermouth impersonation affair. I don’t know if this was a dropped storyline and a source was unfortunately not linked for this interview.
4) Link to Agasa’s long lost love (412) Kinoshita Fusae (also called Fusae Campbell)

Unidentified suspicious people..
1) We never got a name for the baby-faced detective who tailed the giant in the billion yen robbery case with Akemi Miyano. I find this unusual for the author as often name, age, and profession are given on the first meeting. He was introduced early in the story and we haven't seen him since, so he may be a discarded character.
2) The husband of Vermouth as Sharon Vineyard. See his section under Vermouth.

Recurring Minor Characters
Superseded by the Detective Conan wiki article
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on February 1st, 2015, 1:51 am, edited 20 times in total.
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Rum arc theorizing progress

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 7th, 2010, 7:21 pm

Just a collection of progress posts for the Rum arc as I work my way through it:

• DCW November 8, 2014 Kansuke not Rum, we are looking for someone with two eyes.
• DCW December 20, 2014 Looking at Goudzou and Kuroda as models for eye problems
• DCW January 17, 2015 Badly botched the Kawanakabananajama case, but was highly concerned about the potential that Kuroda was swapped with another person in the hospital.
• DCW March 16, 2015 I still stuck by the possibility of a swap even after Kuroda was vindicated.
• DCW March 23, 2015 I don't have any favored Rum candidates
• DCW March 27, 2015 Rum not Kuroda
• DCW July 17, 2015 Why do all the Bo know Rum has a fake eye, but disagree on his basic appearance?
• DCW July 19, 2015 Rum, Rum likely close to Shuukichi, Rum's public position, Mary Akai, and musings on plot design.

• DCW August 25, 2015 Running with the theory that the unknown child is the mother, and that she is British and the sister of Elena Miyano, I bet the rich family friend who has been supporting Masumi Sera's hotel stays is James Black. James was originally from London before he moved to the Unites States. Also Elena, maybe Daddy Akai, and James Black have connections to the British MI6.

• DCTP and DCW August 30th, 2015 Overview of my standing on "recent" events. "Oh look, a low quality theory post about highly original ideas that nobody has definitely ever thought of and posted about before." Mary shrinking analysis. Next post says I favor the Mary was drugged recently theory version. Also Rum may have done it. No rum theories I'm willing to post yet.

• DCW September 10, 2015 No favored Rum suspects yet. But not Kuroda, not Goudzou.
• DCTP Cbox ~December 8, 2015 More Mary and Elena and British intelligence spec
• DCW December 23, 2015 Check in on Rum theories Gadget eye, why his gender might be confused.
• DCW January 20, 2016 Suspicious of Chikara for Rum
• DCW February 27, 2016 Rum is Asaka

• DCW/DCTP March madness, 2016, 1:53 am Asaka Rum. Asaka male? Attempt at explaining Kohji case with Rum as Asaka.Rum/Asaka's eye damaged during fight? Kohji case chain of events guess.

• DCW/Cbox July 25, 2016 Rumi as secret police?
• DCTP CBox August 1st, 2016, 4:18 am Haibara's other drug convo and silver bullet
• DCW Wiki 23:17, 6 August 2016‎ Started a vision analysis statistics page in my wiki user subspace after a cbox discussion to see if I can spot eye-problem people ahead of time

• DCW August 17, 2016 Recap of current thoughts. Finally shed my earlier misunderstanding that there was only one mirror instead of two different mirrors.
"The mirror Asaka was seen with could be Kohji's dying message mirror. I think he stole it from the crime scene because he realized it was a dying message. The mystery photographer was able to take pictures before Asaka returned to retrieve it. I believe Asaka may have been temporarily forced to retreat because Kohji stabbed his eye in their struggle, thus Rum's missing eye."

• DCW August 19, 2016 Closest thing to a mega post I have made about Rum. Still think Asaka is Rum but DCUniverseAficionado's well though out Asaka=Rumi version of event is seeding some serious doubt behind the scenes.

• DCW August 24, 2016 PM exchange with DCUniverseAficionado - I am still on Asaka = Rum, but have been forced to acknowledge that Asaka = Rumi is a possibility.
> DCUniverseAficionado: Just asking—I didn't offend you in how I responded to the "perilous" part, did I? If so, it was not my intention.
> Chekhov MacGuffin: You didn't offend me, but I think you overreacted thinking I meant something much stronger than what I actually wrote. I wasn't accusing you of jumping off the deep end or claiming that your ideas are wrong (I am not a fan of the Mary = Asaka, but Wakasa = Asaka is a decent idea); I was saying that discounting the vanilla theory (Asaka = Rum) because it is simple and no-twist before the evidence has come in is a bad habit in my experience.
> DCUniverseAficionado: "I was saying that discounting the vanilla theory (Asaka = Rum) because it is simple and no-twist before the evidence has come in is a bad habit in my experience." --> It's just not my primary theory, right now (as of File 971). Once we get more info about the case in question and Asaka, I might swing towards the Asaka = Rum theory, and IT will become my primary theory, depending on the info we get (and this examination of the info we have will continue until the truth is ultimately revealed). Trust me, I'm not discounting it

• DCW November 20, 2016 Updated the vision sheet. Mary not Rum.
• DCW Wiki 03:23, 21 November 2016 Started Chikara Katsumata wiki page in my personal subspace because I suspected he was going to be Rum and would need a page eventually as further cases developed.
• DCW December 30, 2016 Rum not Muga Iori

• DCW Wiki 18:36, 26 April 2017‎ Prep for mainspacing the Chikara page, with the edit summary: "As time passes, the more sure I am that this dude is going to be Rum just because of how many Gosho-like villain trope boxes he ticks. Now Rumi shows up with a shogi piece in her pocket." Page was mainspaced and initial speculation section added in the next three hours.

• DCTP Cbox 7 May 17, 20:03: Chek: Chekhov's Official Pre-emptive "Calling It Now", Mark My Words and Your Calendar: Wakita taught Amuro boxing (and waitstaffing). If Wakita is any sort of spy, he's related to the Tokyo Met Public Security Bureau

• DCW 8 May, 2017 Further thoughts about the Kohji case. Highlights are Kohji trashing his own room, moving between the rooms, and the presence of a witness on the scene that Rum overlooked.
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Rum and the Akai Clan

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 7th, 2010, 7:22 pm

Per story discussion guideline #4, consider yourself warned that these theories contain potential solutions for the arcs and reading any of these theories may result in you feeling spoiled.

Main interest
Finding Rum with the power of math, ruling out suspects, and other useful Rum hunting tips - Not anime safe! (DCWiki link)
Akai-Miyano-Sera-Mouri and Kudo-Kuroba Family Relations Theory Chart - Not anime safe! (DCWiki link)
The Akai family's middle brother, The Wizard, and followup on Sera - Not anime safe! (DCW link) (Currently outdated! Last update Jan 2014 or therabouts.)
The mystery child - Not anime safe! (DCW link) (Currently outdated! Last update Jan 2014 or therabouts.)

Assorted other things
Akai family timeline - Not anime safe! (DCW link)
Complete handedness guide for various characters. Includes Akai, Okiya, Sera, Amuro, Gin, and Vodka - currently anime safe (DCWiki link)
An evidence list showing how unlikely various known characters are to be boss of the Black Organization - currently anime safe - Version 1 (DCW link)
List of situations indicating Akai is decent detective - currently anime safe

Past theories and outdated theories because of developments

How Akai could have faked his death. - currently anime safe (Proven True, solution mostly correct with some errors and oversights)
Okiya Subaru is Akai Shuuichi - currently anime safe (anime safe version) (Proven True)
Scar Akai is Bourbon is Amuro Tohru - currently anime safe (anime safe version) (Proven True)
Sera Masumi's true identity, her goals, and her role in the plot - currently anime safe (DCW link) (Identity correct, goals maybe wrong, role in the plot wrong)
Future plot directions in the Bourbon arc - currently anime safe (Outdated by Scarlet Showdown developments, mostly wrong)
Amuro's remaining mysteries - Not anime safe! (DCW link) (Outdated by Scarlet Showdown developments)
Bourbon's motives and actions explained: extended version (original link) - currently anime safe (Mostly proven true, some errors, some things still unknown)
Spoiler: collapsed for length
Gin and Vodka told us that Bourbon doesn't believe Akai is dead and also believes he is the only person who can kill Akai. We don't know why Bourbon thinks this way and whether his beliefs have any rationality behind them vs. just pure obsessive hatred, but that's the info we have been given and there isn't a good reason for Vodka or Gin to lie about it. If they thought Kir might pass info on that Bourbon might be hunting for Akai, they wouldn't have mentioned it at all.

So now Akai seems to be dead, but Bourbon, given his personal beliefs, thinks Gin was duped which naturally means Kir was involved. The problem is finding Akai now because Bourbon wants to kill him properly. Unfortunately, Akai could be anywhere. More unfortunately, Kir isn't spilling and Gin thinks she did her job properly, and thus she is loyal so excessive interrogation is out of the question until he can come up with reasonable doubts the others will buy off on.
He investigates Kir as best he can without upstarting the chain of command and gets ahold of her cellphone which was left in Gin’s car when Kir changed her clothes just before phase 2 of the Domon assassination. He looks at it, but doesn’t find anything especially interesting other than a text message from one Mouri Kogoro with his routing number. Bourbon notes the number anyway in case it has anything to do with finding Akai.

So anyway, Bourbon has to find Akai. The problem is Akai is a smart b*****d and could be anywhere. And worse, Akai isn't going to just slink off and do nothing while pretending to be dead because that isn't Akai's character. No, Akai is going to be plotting or something. So how can Bourbon find Akai short of knocking on every door in Japan? The best chance of success is to probe his close friends of course. These friends may have helped him with his faking death. Vermouth may have told Bourbon that they seemed to have genuine mournful reactions, but maybe Akai dropped by later to clear things up with them and arrange for disguises, papers, or something while he stays in hiding.

Another problem Bourbon faces is that Gin and Co. really believe Akai is dead, so they aren’t going to help with the plan. Vermouth is sympathetic because only she knows Conan is buddies with the FBI and may have manipulated affairs. (The reason why I am saying Vermouth is involved with Bourbon’s plan is because of the conversation with Gin) So with only Vermouth’s help, how is Bourbon going to figure out where Akai is? The best way to hunt Akai down is to find his contacts. From his contacts, Bourbon could try to get some evidence showing reasonable suspicion that Akai is alive, and then use it to convince the rest of the BO to investigate further and find Akai, or else he could try to find Akai himself via the contacts, by, say, threatening them and hoping Akai comes out of hiding to defend.

Any contacts will know Akai is alive, versus everyone else who will think he’s dead. That’s when Bourbon gets a genius plan: disguise as Akai but with some obvious difference, like a big burn and fake amnesia, and show up suddenly in front of potential contacts. If they react like “WTF, you are alive!?” they are off the list. If they react with suspicion or aggression against Akai who suddenly has a large burn and fake amnesia, they are the targets. This disguise-as-Akai plan only requires one person, Bourbon himself, and Vermouth is willing to provide assistance to make a believable disguise.

What exactly happens in order to get the boss’s approval is unclear. Maybe Bourbon complained to the boss directly and boss agreed just to get him off his back, or maybe Vermouth came forward with the proposal to placate Bourbon. It doesn’t matter. The boss agrees to tell everyone else the lie that Bourbon is looking for Sherry in case Kir gets wind of it and reports to the FBI. (This causes trouble later when Gin mistakes Bourbon for the real Akai and doesn’t know the real plan until Vermouth pulls up on her bike to tell him about it.)

So naturally Bourbon goes to target the person closest to Akai first – Jodie Starling. Of course, this is a risky business. If Jodie is in contact with Akai, she might try to kill Bourbon or sic her friends on him. So Bourbon tails her and picks a location to appear that is both public and highly populated so Jodie can’t try to kill or capture him all of a sudden without getting noticed or stopped by random bystanders. He also times it so he appears when Jodie is separated from her friends. Jodie takes the bait and runs after him, but suddenly stops at an alley. Bourbon doesn’t quite know what to make of the reaction so he approaches her again in Teito bank to make sure that she is reacting like “WTF, you are alive!?” and thus is not Akai’s contact.
Then a coincidental robbery happens and Bourbon gets trapped in the bank with Jodie. Bad luck, because Jodie’s reactions tell him that she definitely is not a contact of Akai’s. Worse luck is the robbers have people duct tape his eyes and face, which means his mask is going to get destroyed when the duct tape comes off. Bourbon therefore needs to book it out of the bank before Jodie finds out he isn’t the real Akai and can warn her friends, who may be Akai’s contacts without her knowing, that there is a fake Akai wandering around. Bourbon salvages the rotten situation as best as he is able to by firing a gun at Conan’s attacker and escaping. It provides a distraction where people will run around in confusion (think Conan’s plan at the dept store!) and then the police will come in while everyone is still duct-taped and Bourbon can remove/fix his disguise in the confusion and escape without Jodie finding out. The plan coincidentally also has the side benefit of tricking Jodie some more into thinking he is the real Akai.

Bourbon aims for Camel next. Why Camel? Remember this guy?
This guy administered Akai’s final loyalty test. While he could be just anyone, maybe he was Bourbon in disguise (got to admit the clothes look alike!) who hated Akai even back then and was hoping to catch Akai out at the very end. Anyway, Bourbon does the same thing he did to Jodie with Camel; he follows Camel to a public place with lots of people around generally, and catches Camel all by his lonesome in the bathroom. Camel has the “WTF, you are alive!?” reaction so Bourbon doesn’t bother with a repeat check.

While making sure he loses Camel and any other FBI by wandering around, Bourbon heads to the sports floor and… gets caught up in another case where he can’t leave. Lucky him. Fortunately, this one doesn’t involve duct-tape. He doesn’t know that someone in the BO (out on a shopping lark?) saw him, informed Vodka/Gin, and so Gin and friends have set up assassins for Bourbon by mistake. I am going to ignore this for now because Bourbon doesn’t know about it. As the case draws on, people are using cellphones to take movies and stuff, at least one of which gets Bourbon on screen which he notices (you can see him looking back at the video taker). Bourbon really wants out of the dept store because the FBI might also see said footage if it gets broadcasted or posted online somewhere, then bring friends, and confront him.
Adding to Bourbon’s woes is that Great Detective Mouri Kogoro is on the case!!!!!… and is failing miserably. Bourbon, who figured out the case as best as he could without an internet, decides to speed the case solving process along by pickpocketing someone’s phone so as not to compromise his own phone number, dredging up Kogoro’s cellphone number from when he stole it from Rena’s phone, and texting him the answer with the end-note to hurry it up already so we can leave!

It works, and Bourbon heads for the front door. Whether he heard Jodie screaming from behind him or he just felt eyes on him, he looks up to see Chianti. He smirks at her because he is amused his disguise worked well enough to drag the other BO members out. He does take the opportunity to disappear because he doesn’t want to be shot. Meanwhile Vermouth comes up to talk to Gin and correct his misconceptions. Gin asks Vermouth if the boss agreed to this plan because he is pissed Bourbon has been jacking him around for the past few hours, then calls off the snipers and complains about Bourbon running around doing things on his own.

Rebuttals to commonly used arguments that Okiya is not Akai -Version 1 (DCW link) - currently anime safe (Mostly okay, some made obsolete by new developments.)
•Identity of the people who Akai asked to follow and photograph Yukiko and the detective boys in the film prescreening case (chaps 417-419) (Confirmed jossed by Gosho in Jan 4, 2014 interview. Their identities are two irrelevant subordinates of Akai.)
Spoiler: collapsed for length
Kinoshita and Billy look very similar to the pair of people who Shuichi Akai asked to follow Yukiko Kudo and the detective boys at the film studio in chapter 419. Fusae spoke English, and one of her parents was foreign and an English speaker. The name Billy suggests an American or at least English connection which would fit make sense for FBI related people. Billy's line, “I think the next time you meet will be much sooner than that...” could have a deeper meaning. The cars the two pairs of people drove don’t match. Additionally, Kinoshita had a three person meal in her car, although only two people were present. (May have been meant for Agasa and was eaten)

Compare Kinoshita to the shadow lady
Compare Billy to the shadow man

Other potential known character couples are ruled out.
The shadow people are not James Black and Jodie Starling because neither Jodie nor James smoke.
They can't be Tomoaki Araide and his housekeeper Hikaru Yasumoto either because they are out of the country under protection.
They are not members of the Black Organization because they were working with Akai.
None of the other FBI officers guarding Haido Central Hospital resemble the two shadow people.
For glasses man, Okiya would have to not be Akai which I have problems with.
Sera is not the lady in the hat. Conan asked Takagi to stop by their car and ask them questions about whether they had been drinking and such to get them to stop following the gang. Takagi would have recognized her during her appearance case. Also the shadowlady with the hat was shown smoking. Conan probably would have noticed if Sera smelled of smoke because that would be unexpected for someone who is supposed to be high-school aged. Cigarette smoke smell is also difficult to get out of clothes and hair, and we already had a shot of Sera's apartment and there were no obvious signs of smoking so Sera must have kicked the habit temporarily if she was hat lady.

Okiya probably knows Conan is Shinichi - currently anime safe (Proven True)
Spoiler: collapsed for length
Outdated because Okiya was shown to know Conan is Shinichi for sure in 813 and 814. FYI, this post was not modified after this was revealed.

Akai already knows Ai Haibara is Miyano Shiho (Vermouth arc) and thus likely suspects Conan is probably a shrunken person like her; however, Akai doesn't have many starting points to determine who Conan's alter ego is. When Akai moves in to Shinichi's house as Okiya, he begins getting hints. The first hint is that Conan is taking care of the house for Shinichi who "has gone missing all of a sudden" and will loan him the place. (624 pg 15) A suddenly missing person is a great candidate for who Conan might have been before, especially since it is strange that a little boy can freely decide to allow a random stranger to stay at a house belonging to an unrelated teenage friend without consulting him beforehand. Conan also contradicts himself on the next page (624 pg 16): Conan says he will text message Shinichi about it later, but Conan just said that Shinichi was missing a few speech bubbles before.
Okiya definitely picked up on the inconsistencies in Conan's house lending talk because he became suspicious about the house's owner. We know from what he said to Ran that Okiya looked around Shinichi's house for traces of the landlord: clothes, journals, and albums, but found nothing personally identifying. (chap 639 pg. 5) This in itself is a hint for Okiya; why would someone bother trying to hide the traces of the previous owner?
Okiya obviously saw through Ran's lie about the "Kinichi" person that was making deductions about paper airplane case. (639 pg 4) Not only did Sonoko speak up that Ran contacted Shinichi before Ran cut her off, but also the laughable choice of alias, Sonoko's confused reaction to Ran's lie, and the house's large mystery novel collection give away the fabrication. Okiya also learned from this conversation that Shinichi was a high schooler who loves deduction. Okiya wouldn't fail to notice that Conan is quite similar. Since Okiya has been shown to be good a background research (702 pg 15), he simply has to look up a news article with a picture of Shinichi and note the obvious resemblance between Shinichi and Conan to finalize his hypothesis.

Okiya through his wiretaps, should have overheard Conan and Ai discussing Conan using Shinichi's voice to present deductions. (771.11) If Okiya had any questions left, that should have sealed the deal.

Everything we know about Bourbon if Bourbon is Scar Akai- currently anime safe (Currently out of date due to Amuro)
Random evidence-less speculation that Bourbon may have had a crush on Akemi which is why he hates Akai. (Confirmed jossed by Gosho January 4, 2014 interview, Akemi irrelevant to Amuro and Akai's rivalry)
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on August 6th, 2016, 5:37 pm, edited 36 times in total.
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Recurring Plot Devices, Interesting Exchanges, Questions, Random stuff.

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 7th, 2010, 7:29 pm

Recurring plot devices
0) A significant portion of the important characters are connected within one degree of freedom somehow. Envision drawing a relationship chart between all the characters. This applies especially to the adult characters. Many of them probably had direct interactions that predate the current timeline, but were not aware of each other before the current time.
1) Childhood friends and childhood connections. This is copiously used among the protagonists/regular characters. It would make sense thematically if this is extensively applied to the antagonists as well.
a) Many characters were childhood friends which then evolved into romance.
2) Child parent relationships seem to come up fairly often as well.
3) Characters in physical disguises.
4) Death of an important person in the past which motivates the character. Megure’s wife (sort of), Sato’s father and partner Matsuda Jinpei, Kaitou kid’s father, Shuu’s Akemi, Shiho's sister, Superintendent's Matsumoto's police partner, etc
5) People other than Conan are often wrong and their theories must be taken with a certain skepticism. Mark as important anything Conan is pursuing, because it is probably relevant or on the right track.
6) Law of conservation of detail, devil in the details, and Chekhov’s gun. Take note of what Conan is doing, especially when his thoughts on the matter are not revealed, because he probably knows something that the readers should be trying to deduce. Suspicion should be proportional to the “passing-ness” of the reference
7) Unexpected culprit. Mystery authors, Gosho included, with some regularity like to make the culprit the person who would seem least likely to do it, whether through appearance, gender, or alibi strength.

Interesting Exchanges that I took note of
This exchange between Gin and Akemi over the whereabouts of the 10^9 yen. (16) I think it may have had a hidden meaning to it, (i.e not referring to the money.) Why would Gin talk about multiple guesses? Akemi couldn't have been running for long with the money.
Gin: This is your last chance. Tell me where the money is.
Akemi: You’re naïve… If you kill me you’ll never know…
Gin: You’re the naïve one. Our guesses are getting close to the mark. I told you once didn’t I? That was your last chance.

915 p7
Koumei: Speaking of which Kansuke, someone spotted you this morning around where we found Takeda's body.
Kansuke: Huh? Didn't I already say I was busy this morning? I never went to that bridge. Whoever it was, the've got the wrong guy.
Kuroda: You're not someone who would easily be mistaken ....
Kansuke: I could say the same for you, first division chief Kuroda-san.

I wonder if Kansuke knows Kuroda is ex-NPA, which is why he phrased the callout like he did. Naming his rank is reminding Kuroda of where he has fallen into from his more prestigious NPA rank, a dig in retaliation for Kuroda's comment on Kansuke's face. Kansuke (and Koumei) didn't know Kuroda would be off for Tokyo, as Kuroda only found out at the very end of the woodpecker case after the criminal was caught and he got the message on his cell phone. Gosho could be setting up Kansuke as a source for further information on Kuroda and the secret police later.

Questions I wish I knew the answers to

•What are the name origins for "Miyano", "Shiho", "Akemi", "Elena", and "Atsushi"? It might hint something about their work, their family history, etc. (Theory here)
•When exactly did Elena and Atsushi "leave" their children for their work on Silver Bullet? Pisco implies it is a little after 18 years ago because he implies Shiho was a baby when her parents were still alive. This info might be useful to clarify some of the issues surrounding Vermouth.
•Did Vermouth have any role in the deaths of the Miyanos?

When exactly did Vermouth as Sharon 1) debut/her parents die and 2) win an Oscar/her husband die relative to the current timeline? Knowing more about her timeline would provide insight on when she might have stopped aging and how it might link to the Miyano's work. In short, it might sort out the persistent question, did the Miyano's work precede Vermouth's aging issues or vice versa?
•How old does Vermouth look without a disguise? How old is Sharon supposed to be? Precise answers could be used to narrow down some of the timing possibilities for Vermouth's history and possibly give insight on the development of the Organization and its agenda.
•Was the attempt to force Itakura to finish his program only Vermouth's doing through Tequila or was the boss and the rest of the Org behind it? Why did Vermouth, as Sharon get so emotional about it? Might give some idea about the intent of the program and whether it is particularly related to Vermouth. Also might be important to figuring out if Vermouth tried to thwart the effort.
•Did Vermouth have any role in the deaths of the Miyanos?
•What went on behind the scenes when Vermouth switched from Sharon to Chris? Did her Vermouth face that she showed the Organization change as well?

•How old is Gin, or at least how old is he supposed to look? This would clarify the type of connection he has with Shiho, and give some insight on his position within the Org and level of insider knowledge.
•How much does Gin know about what the Organization scientists are trying to make? This would clarify how much he knows about Vermouth's aging issues.
•Did Gin and Akemi ever speak with one another before the confrontation in the shipping yard? I feel like they might have based on the conversation they had.

•Has the boss of the Black Org been the same one the entire time? Would help narrow down the scope of the Org's activity and possible relationship with Vermouth. If so and the Org is more than fifty years old, it would increase the likelihood we are looking for someone with aging issues.

•Why did a delinquent-type like Kogoro join the police force? Where is the rest of Kogoro's family and why do they never visit or get talked about? Pure interest, combined with suspicions that there may be crucial hidden plot in these topics.

•Who is the owner of the Poirot?

Stuff that still bothers me
How did Kir know Akai's phone number, and why did that not make Gin suspicious that she knew it?
• How did Vermouth know Haibara's phone number on the Bell Tree Express?
• Who tipped off Vodka that Scar Akai was in the Beika department store in the first place?

Soft theories
Theories that aren't worthy of a better analysis, but I threw out there at some point.
• Boss identity ideas (see boss section)
• Kogoro is connected to the Black Organization (See section Kogoro)
Vermouth was the original principal investigator of what would eventually become the APTX project.
The ending of detective conan and the final confrontation clash battle
Gosho's original plot
• [Definitely non-canon]Attempt to mesh the stories of Magic Kaito org with the Black Organization

Random stuff
Haibara first interacts with Kogoro in Desperate revival V25-11 pg 14
Ran makes Conan explain the tranquilizer wristwatch in V13-4 pg 4
Coroner in 758
Black Organization seatbelt use ... 0%2816.png - complicated person quote

Good threads to look at some time:
Differences between the manga and anime. Lots of interesting little details...

@[email protected]

Threads that aren't my posts that need fixing:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2745 -
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2062#p44117 - ... 7#msg44117
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3126&start=30 -
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4399 - fix this whole thread

up to pg 4 of story D
finished page 13 in reverse of my posts
pg 70 in all post view
Finished up to Dec 31, 2011. Check early part of 2011 again though, I went quickly through that part.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on August 1st, 2016, 10:55 pm, edited 31 times in total.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Abs. » June 11th, 2010, 3:25 am

Not doing this very methodically, but.  Can you clarify this:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Teitan headmaster, has a thing for planting trees on campus in strange ways – 154 (strange wonders of school), also mentioned in 458 (Teitan ghost case).
As I understand it, the headmaster for the primary school (Uematsu Ryuujirou, 59) is a different person than the headmaster for the high school.  The headmaster of the high school (unnamed?) was the one who was troubled by the trees, and also the one Vermouth taught the exercises to, for his back pain.
Your opinion is always requested in Abs.' Random Polls of Whenever
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 12th, 2010, 2:39 pm

Abs. wrote:Not doing this very methodically, but.  Can you clarify this:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Teitan headmaster, has a thing for planting trees on campus in strange ways – 154 (strange wonders of school), also mentioned in 458 (Teitan ghost case).
As I understand it, the headmaster for the primary school (Uematsu Ryuujirou, 59) is a different person than the headmaster for the high school.  The headmaster of the high school (unnamed?) was the one who was troubled by the trees, and also the one Vermouth taught the exercises to, for his back pain.

Yeah, I think you are right about that and I got the two mixed up and thus neither qualifies as a returning char yet. I'll look back over the chapters to make sure.
Edit: checked and verified, they're two different people. Now removed.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on June 16th, 2010, 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby sstimson » June 20th, 2010, 4:07 am

Parkur wrote:
kkslider5552000 wrote:
Parkur're weird  ;)

*a tumbleweed passes by*
pretty much the only action this topic is gonna get for a while
Sorry Working on my 60 page rebuttal  :D ;D ::)

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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby sstimson » June 20th, 2010, 5:47 am

I might owe you a thanks for proof to my theory

Remember what I said about rumors?

Well here is what Conan said in 34-2


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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Key-chan » June 20th, 2010, 9:17 am

Random idea after reading a bit of what Chekhov pointed out:

The Boss is actually Vermouth's husband. Using Chekhov's various theories and putting some of them together, Mr Vineyard (call him that for now) has also been submitted to the wrath of the prototype poison and shrunk to the size of a seven year old like Shinichi and Shiho. Since there was no known cure, Mr Vineyard had to fake his death so that no one would come and ask any questions about his mysterious vanishing. It would explain why Vermouth is his "favorite" and has that much freedom, why he communicates only per e-mail as Chekhov pointed out, and the Nanatsu no Ko would then also become a hint left by Aoyama-sensei since it can also be translated as "Seven year-old Child". Vermouth protects Conan because not only did he and Ran save her, but she can also relate to his situation as a shrunken person through her husband.

Possibly, the B.O. was actually supposed to be "purging" group that tries to eradicate "evil". Alcohol is regularly used in the medical department as disinfectant, and actually make good codenames for the members of this group that are supposed to "disinfect" the world. I have no real theories or ideas on how it became corrupted enough that they would resort to murder, but then again we all know that there are people in the world that are willing to do anything to defend their beliefs, and even push it onto others (*coughreligioncough*)

Vermouth can see that their "goal" has strayed completely from their original view of "justice", and therefore supports Conan in his taking the entire organization down. Since she's Mr Vineyard's wife, she can more or less get away with it.

...Although, I'll admit, I don't know how Vermouth's hate for the Miyanos fits in this, or even anything else. I didn't really try to think every detail through or spend hours coming up with something that explains everything that happened until now.

So, aside from that, do we happen know any seven year-olds that live in Kurayoshi? XD
(Rock'n'Roll-Shinichi ftw)
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 20th, 2010, 5:56 pm

Key-chan wrote:Random idea after reading a bit of what Chekhov pointed outThe Boss is actually Vermouth's husband.
I've wondered about Sharon/Vermouth's husband for a while now too. Is he real? Did Sharon/Vermouth fake him with a disguise too? If real, is he even a member of the Org? The one thing we know about him is he supposedly died and Chris Vineyard came to the funeral disguised as him to harass Sharon. Of course that whole scene is impossible because Sharon = Chris, but perhaps this little story of Vermouth's was inspired by something that happened almost like she described: the husband faked his death too and came to visit his own grave... That last case would probably mean the husband is BO, but who knows if he is even real to start with? I won't speculate much without more information.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on September 21st, 2010, 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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