Dwalin wrote:No, the fault is the PEOPLE'S who all have their free will.
If the slavemasters listened to him as well, there would be no slavery.
Sorry, but I tend to agree with 1KHF on this point – there are more important things to do, in my opinion (I am NOT talking about religious propaganda, before somebody says so). And, by the way, homosexual supporters I talked with on internet just seem too aggressive – and I don’t want to become an ally of aggressive and intolerant people, be they heterosexuals or homosexuals. To me, being mean just because you want to defend your point of view is wrong. Anyway, I think homosexuals and their supporters don't need people like me, as I may conclude from the disdain most of people here seemed to hold towards me during the discussion.
And please, don't tell me "if you don't like our way of speaking, then leave this thread". I will, don't worry, I just want to read the answers to my last questions.
Whose fault is it that God encourages people to kill others at every turn in the Bible? When that order is followed, whose fault is it for listening to him? They are threatened with eternal damnation for not following his word, and in the Bible, he clearly outlines in the Old Testament that many people need to die so that his will may be achieved (including homosexuals and nonbelievers). Is it bad to follow the Bible? People felt justified in carrying out a holy doctrine they believed in--were they wrong to feel justified in doing so? This isn't about whether you believe in the Old Testament or not. There is irrefutable evidence that God's name has been used to carry out countless atrocities in carrying out his will according to the Bible exactly as it was prescribed there. No one needed to interpret anything for that--it wasn't "free will" that made people kill millions to satisfy
God's endless thirst for blood. There is no debating any of that, but I'm sure you'll try anyway and naturally dig yourself deeper into a hole you're not going to escape.
Let's note this: Jesus did not come around before "the slavemasters", and it was God himself that allowed it so wholeheartedly and openly encouraged it in the Old Testament. Wouldn't you expect Jesus, if he really did love everyone so very much, to come and tell everyone it was wrong? He gladly preached against the rich and the corrupt, but he was OK with slavery. Jesus's message to these slaves was that they should just rot away and fear their masters. As a result, your "logic" destroys itself: Jesus never intended to put an end to slavery and was instead more than content with it continuing. If someone said that to you, that slaves should obey their slavemasters with unquestioning authority and they deserved nothing more than to fear their slavemasters as they would God, you would think they were insane. But, I understand: Because it's J.C., he gets a pass. Next.
There are more important things to do than symbolically offer your support for a cause that ensures equal human rights? Like
what? It takes absolutely no time whatsoever on your part to simply pledge support for your fellow human beings looking for happiness and equality. Plenty of people came to this topic and said, "I think gay marriage should be legal" and said nothing more. If you truly believed that, why not just say that now? Just say, "I think gay marriage should be completely legal in every possible way and think gay people have claim to every right that straight couples have." Say it if you believe it. Say that you think gay people should be 100% equal to heterosexuals in every possible sense and that they deserve unparalleled equal rights to straight people. If you can say that with all honesty, then there's nothing else to discuss. You're already here and going to make a post in reply to this, so why not say that in it? It will take virtually no extra time and will at least make you
seem like you care.
Let me make one thing clear above all else: Your religion doesn't matter to me. I don't care about your god or gods--I care about the
people around me, the
human beings, and if I can do even one small thing for them, that time is well spent. I'm not so pompous as to think that they aren't worth my time or there are "more important things to do" and then go off to watch TV shows or read something for my own entertainment. With the time that people are saying we're wasting here, what were they doing with their lives? Were they out saving the world? Did they go out and campaign against world hunger? Did they volunteer to man the phones down at the local food bank? Of course they didn't--they went back to their same old self-fulfilling routines.
The key to supporting an issue is supporting it at every opportunity. You don't have to give a speech at Harvard to make a difference. That sort of naive attitude on your part does absolutely no one any good. You think people can't care about multiple issues at once? I am an advocate for as many causes as one could expect and I find time for all of them and don't regret a minute of it. I would spend my entire life starting from this minute until the day I die to bring equal rights to gay people as what I enjoy just because I was born a different way and I would never once think that time was not well spent.
I'm not conceited enough to think that I don't have time for such an issue, and I am going to go out on a limb and say you aren't so "busy" yourself--not if you've had time to come back to this topic time and time and time again to reply to posts critical of you, and the same goes for IHKF. This is all where your "logic" about "more important things to do" falls completely apart. You are already here and you
keep coming back--why not spend the time constructively if you actually believe in the cause instead of discouraging others from it?
Look, you want aggressive? You'll get it if you continue to act so condescending toward a large group of people that are discriminated against every single day and saying their rights aren't worth your time. Saying that someone is "aggressive" does not make them wrong and it doesn't make them "mean", which may come as a shock to you given your completely false characterization of the supporters of this issue here. No one is "being mean
just because [they] want to defend their viewpoint." That is a silly and naive thing to say and does not in any way validate your viewpoint.
Wait a second... You don't want to become an ally of aggressive and intolerant people? Too late: You just aligned yourself with IHKF, again. If there's anything she does, it's be aggressive and intolerant of other people's views, on anything. So, good job sticking to that principle... which took you one sentence to contradict. World record. Nicely done. Your medal will be along shortly.
You don't want to support this movement because some people seem "aggressive"? But, aren't there also Christians that are aggressive? You gladly call yourself a Christian at every single opportunity. Why not call yourself a gay rights advocate too? Never mind, I forgot. You'd rather discriminate against them and make excuses when confronted on it.
You want to talk about intolerance on
this side of the debate? You are kidding yourself. That's the entire problem with the
other side: Intolerance. People on this side are willing to tolerate anyone and anything in the name of freedom because they understand what's at stake for humankind at large because many of them have suffered as a result of this and continue to, every day. Don't say anything about "intolerance" when you have no idea on how to properly apply the word.
Homosexuals need all the support they can get on this issue. You don't have to agree with whether being gay is fashionable or even "morally" right. You should be promoting happiness for your fellow human beings above all and never once putting anything else ahead of that in situations such as these. Discrimination is bad, and standing idly by as it happens is, in many ways, even worse. Let
them decide what's right for them--don't let the government mandate against them on religious grounds. It's that simple.
[I'm dividing the post into two parts because the final question you asked is so inane it deserves to be answered entirely separately.]Dwalin wrote:May I also ask you, just out of curiosity, if you have ever thought that, if I may be wrong about something, you may be as well? (i am not saying you are wrong about the rights of the homosexuals, it's just a general question I ask because the way of speaking of most people in this particular thread makes me suspect they think they are never wrong and even thinking they sometimes are is blasphemy or something like that).
You really underestimate me if you think that question will in any way stump me. Let me just put that on the table first. You have no clue what you're getting yourself into, and I want you to remind yourself
now, at this point, that it was you that brought it on yourself. It wasn't me. I never pushed you to ask that question, but since you asked:
Have I considered if I may be wrong? Let me ask you an equally relevant question: Have you ever considered that
you may be wrong? Sakina was right in asking that question, but I'm not leaving it there (you're likely going to wish I did). All that said, because I do have humanity in me, I will be as delicate as possible while proceeding with this post but will not censor its message.
Let me tell you the difference between you and me, and in fairly simple terms: My position on the subject of, say, is there a God or isn't there a God is based on evidence and logic. Yours is based on faith and a lack of logic. The fundamental difference between you and me is that my position on the subject
can be swayed with evidence whereas yours cannot be. Want me to prove it to you? Watch:
If it were completely proven today that there is no God and that God is the figment of the collective imagination of generations of humankind meant to provide life with an invented yet entirely false sense of purpose, would you stop believing in God today?No, you wouldn't. If it were the other way around,
I would have no problems whatsoever believing in God because
I "believe" in things that are real and proven. If God were proven real, I would have no issues believing in God in the same way I acknowledge other facts as facts. But, it isn't the same for you and we both know that. You cannot bring yourself to say here that you would be as content with there being a God exactly the same as you would be content with there not being one, because it goes against your faith to do so. If you admit that here, you are admitting that God is really give-or-take with you and that you don't really need him, and you would never be willing to do that. For me? If the evidence said there is a God and we proved it, I would have no qualms with that. It would be a facet of reality for me to accept just like the world being round. The problem is... every bit of evidence we've found and continue to find, every day, points the opposite direction.
That is the difference between you and me. I have
no problem considering whether I'm wrong or not, whereas you're just simply too scared to.
- Get your Detective Conan bobbleheads today! - 
here more than anywhere else (I don't know you in real life. Maybe you're the President of something 
) You set the example for this community. Tons/Many/Much [Insert Redundancies] respect! Won't say love because that would be weird and it would be meaningless because people throw it around so often that the word now means nothing. People If you want change we must make it ourselves by writing letters to our senators, gathering/showing support for the movement for it must happen in the U.S. first for the world to follow. If you don't care keep on not caring just don't go against what should be a group of peoples natural right/s, please! 
