Homosexuality: A Survey

[ConansSideWalk]

Jd-'s logic is super effective! I recommend an episode from Morgan Spurlock's (Super Size Me) tv series 30 Days season 1 episode 4 Straight Man in a Gay World.

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The rest of the episode

Spoiler:

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I HIGHLY RECOMMEND WATCHING THE EPISODE

[Tawi]

That something goes against "tradition" isn't a good enough argument to oppose it. Over the past several hundred years, truly massive increases in the quality of life have occurred throughout the world because people have rejected tradition. Traditional economic systems have been replaced market and mixed economies (there are flaws to both, but the increase in wealth has been truly immense). Traditional social values, in particular the subjection of women as part of a patriachal hierarchy have come under sustained (though they continue to influence us). Traditional political systems have been replaced by a democratic ethic that values the participation of all (again, things aren't perfect, but there has been a truly massive improvement). These improvements have taken place because people have looked at "traditional" values and systems and realized that they can do better by changing things.

You're right, going aganist tradition, a change of pace, has done the world a lot of good. The transition from monarchy to democracy, etc. However, some changes do not and things like abortion and gay marriage are examples of these. See accepting changes like these, can bring about a lot of problems, the most deadly being, a rise in moral degradation. I don't even have to explain why abortion is wrong and I just explained why gay marriage is. Personally, I find it wrong to see several Catholic adoption agencies being  closed throughout the US simply because they will not provide services to gay couples. These are religious services that provide care for those who need it and do this out of goodwill. Yet, the government closes these Catholic agencies for following Catholic teaching. Come on!

As moral degradation rises, things that were considered wrong in the past become more acceptable at present. People may reason that "Oh, gay marriage is alright, people have the right to love one another, its their decision". But that reasoning can also be applied to justify incest or suicide, and at the rate America is going, who knows, these might become acceptable in the near future. I have nothing against homosexuals but I don't think they should be able to adopt children. I mean, every child as the right to be loved by a mother and a father. I don't see how I would have turned out if I was raised by two men or women.

America is a country that seems so centered on freedom  to the point that they wont allow people can't pray in the corridors or use the words "Merry Christmas" simply because they might offend adherents to atheism. Honestly, If I were an atheist, I wouldn't be offended by these at all.

[PhoenixTears]

The difference, Tawi, between gay marriage and incest/suicide is that gay marriage DOES NOT HURT ANYONE.

Incest is frowned upon because it could cause trouble (in regards to health) for any offspring born of that union. Suicide is frowned upon because it takes a human life. Gay marriage is not comparable to either of those things.

And I don't see how allowing homosexuals to get married will bring a rise in moral degradation, but that's pretty much the argument any religious conservative will use to ban gay marriage.

The real problem here is that religious people use that argument to blame homosexuals for things other people. That gay marriage will bring about a rise in moral degradation is absolutely false, and complete nonsense if you were to think about it with real logic rather than "morals" that have been pounded into your head by someone who thinks they have a higher morality than everyone around them.

[ProfParanoia]

You're right, going aganist tradition, a change of pace, has done the world a lot of good. The transition from monarchy to democracy, etc. However, some changes do not and things like abortion and gay marriage are examples of these. See accepting changes like these, can bring about a lot of problems, the most deadly being, a rise in moral degradation. I don't even have to explain why abortion is wrong and I just explained why gay marriage is. Personally, I find it wrong to see several Catholic adoption agencies being  closed throughout the US simply because they will not provide services to gay couples. These are religious services that provide care for those who need it and do this out of goodwill. Yet, the government closes these Catholic agencies for following Catholic teaching. Come on!

Without the changing, loosening, and adapting of religious rules, then Catholicism would have never existed. It's a branch off of another branch off that came from a long line of branching off. Religious rules and practices will change overtime to fit the time, they exist as a mean of making a person connect to the universe and gain a meaning that they may find in comfort, and that sense cannot exist the same throughout time and to every being. And, I would like to mention, that this government gives special treatment tax wise to this and other churches that allows them to exist in their prevalence.

As moral degradation rises, things that were considered wrong in the past become more acceptable at present. People may reason that "Oh, gay marriage is alright, people have the right to love one another, its their decision". But that reasoning can also be applied to justify incest or suicide, and at the rate America is going, who knows, these might become acceptable in the near future. I have nothing against homosexuals but I don't think they should be able to adopt children. I mean, every child as the right to be loved by a mother and a father. I don't see how I would have turned out if I was raised by two men or women.

"Homosexuality isn't a decision", is the actual argument. Also, incest and suicide are completely different in the fact that homosexuality is not and can't be harmful in concept whilst suicide is killing yourself and incest can significantly raise the chance of a child having recessive traits that could kill them.  Next, I would like to point out that more states have marrying your cousin as legal than homosexual marriage. And lets be real here, the argument that you can't see yourself in a different reality isn't that binding of a case. There's nothing to say that having two fathers is any worse for a child outside of the crap (s)he'd hear from people like you.

Gay marriage is seen as wrong in the Bible for the same reason "pulling out" early is seen as wrong.

America is a country that seems so centered on freedom  to the point that they wont allow people can't pray in the corridors or use the words "Merry Christmas" simply because they might offend adherents to atheism. Honestly, If I were an atheist, I wouldn't be offended by these at all.

America didn't ban the phrase "Merry Christmas" it's just the some people remembered that Christmas wasn't the only Holiday in December and thought it would be a nice gesture to recognize them all. And where did you learn that you're not allowed to pray in hallways? Because, that's not true.

[sonoci]

I think what bothers me most is

If not for our interconnected world where you can almost literally know what's happening anytime anywhere

There could be an entire country of homosexuals on an island marrying at once...and anywhere else, no one would know. No one would be effected outside of the island. And on the island, they would be happy. They'd be with the ones they'd love.

From my view--just my view, so maybe it's flawed or weird or whatever, I can't really help it right now without being told the flaws--but banning a homosexual marriage for any reason...well, it would be the wrong reason. I mean, saying they're allowed to be homosexual but not allowed to marry...that's...kind of...insulting. Even just the word "allowed". It's like saying "You're allowed to be yourself". That, to me, is almost inhumane. No one - not your friends, not your parents, not the law - can tell you who to be. To a lesser degree, it's like saying "You're allowed to love, but not to act on that love. It must be unrequited, no exceptions." The only good point is that it's a beginning step, it just needs some more logic.

Homosexuality is (again IMO, might be flawed) like a trait. For instance, you could be born with a short temper and then calm over the years. You may start patient and tolerant and then get grated and annoyed by small things years on. You can be straight...and then be homosexual. You can start homosexual...and then be straight. People change.

The problem is there's something in people that seems to hate change. In my honest, down to the heart, opinion...you can only truly live and be happy when you finally accept that change because with that acceptance everything will be so much easier. When you're sad you'll realize: this will change too, and I'll be happy again. When you grow older you'll realize: this is how things are supposed to be, and who's to say all of the good moments have to be in the younger days?

Though the ironic thing is, when you accept change, you'll actually change less and you'll flow with the change...thus appearing unchanged. Resist that tide of change and it'll pass, leaving you behind: changed.



That's just my ramblings though  Mostly pointless to anyone but me 

[Edogawa4869]

Well, this is quite interesting.  Here's my take on the issue:

WARNING: This post is most likely a stream-of-consciousness style post focusing on my thoughts about the issue.  It shouldn't be too hard to understand, but if you can enter my mind and understand this, please get out because I already have four separate people invading my thoughts AS WE SPEAK. If not, well, just read the list and you should be fine. ^^''

Age: 17
Country: USA
Religion: Roman Catholic
Position: For homosexuality and gay marriage

Growing up in a Christian (Methodist in my early years and then Catholic from 7-years-old on) household, I've heard it all.  I've seen my parents' reactions to the social issues of the world and received invaluable lessons from them.  There's one thing that I never really agreed with, though...  And it's this topic right here.  They've (Read: My mother has) made it quite clear that they (Read: she) don't approve of homosexual behavior whole-heartedly: They've ([s]Read:[/s] Oh, you get the picture. openly said that they don't agree with the gay lifestyle while watching Project Runway (Come on, it's Project Runway. Not to sound too prejudiced, but there's almost always at least one. ) and they were frustrated when Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed.

However, as my online sister posted earlier (edited only slightly):

99.9999% of religious people these days do pick and choose which scripture and doctrine they want to follow, regardless of actual religion or denomination within the religion.

I'm guilty of that.  Here's my reasoning:

Like it or not, the Bible is a collection of books that were written 1800-2000 years ago.  Do I believe that those writers and prophets were inspired by God? Absolutely.  However, the keyword in that sentence is inspired.  IMO, the prophets weren't God's secretaries that had the Holy Spirit dictate a worldwide memo to them.  Sadly, I'm not sure that anyone's hearts are truly that open to God, which leads me to believe that they did receive some heavenly advice, but, to relate it using a modern-day simile, it's like they got it from Google Books (you know, that annoying Snippet view that Google gives you): Not all of the message was there.  Without a full picture, they therefore had to relate the message to what they knew about the world at that time and how it worked.

That's (partially, anyway) why my vote is in favor of homosexuality and gay marriage.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I'd be willing to bet cold hard cash that in 75 years or less, the Catholic Church will accept homosexual marriage or be subject to a series of schisms that fracture a chunk of its base in Europe and North America. Pretty much all the other churches are going through this to some degree, the Catholic one is only lagging because it has a world base and more bureaucracy.

Also Tawi, your conception of Protestants or Americans is not very informed, which is severely limiting the believability of your arguments.

Regarding these "closed" adoption agencies, there are several things to consider. There are different types of adoption agencies. Some are public, publicly funded, or they contract with a state’s federally-funded foster care program. Any of these public or partially public agencies can be religiously affiliated and run by religious institutions, but they have to obey secular rules because they have elected to receive public funds or support.
In order to be publicly run, publicly funded, or contracted with publicly funded agencies, the government requires that the institution must not discriminate against those of any race, religious creed, ancestry, gender, etc. While not enacted on the national level, many state governments have added sexual orientation to the do not discriminate list. When that happened in Illinois, the Catholic adoption agency chose to close themselves rather than comply with the do not discriminate provisions or become private, not federally funded or contracted which would have allowed them to continue not adopting to same sex couples..

Also for anyone wondering, there is quite a bit of variability in Catholic thinking that I have encountered. I know more than a few Roman Pope Catholics (versus say Anglican) who are waiting for the Catholic church to come around on homosexuality.

[Tanner-kun]

Hey Tanner, since this is an overused atheistic claim, I'll give you an overused Christian response. There are no contradictions in the bible but there are what appear to be contradictions. It may be easy for atheists to come up with a list of things that confuse them but that's beside the point. One has to have knowledge of the bible, take the text as a whole and most importantly, deal with the translation by itself. Believe me, it isn't as easy as flipping through your printed version of the bible. Really, the contradictions in the Bible shouldn't bother Christians unless they are catechized on the manner. I'll agree that atheism has a good number of arguments but this is not one of them.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm#INDEX

All you did was completely avoid my arguemeant. I guess that is a overused Christian response? and i didn't list any contradictions, i listed beliefs that are no longer practiced. I would like to hear a actual argumeant against that, and not you just avoiding it.

We do not take the bible literally word-for-word.

So what is wrong with not taking it literally about homosexuals?

[sonoci]

Y'know I just realized

As the child of everyone

Technically I am also the child of homosexual couples

And look how I turned out~! 







[me=sonoci]thus destroyed the "for" side completely and accidentally[/me]



Hahahahaha, no in all seriousness just trying to lighten the mood a bit ._.

[Edogawa4869]

Y'know I just realized

As the child of everyone

Technically I am also the child of homosexual couples

And look how I turned out~! 







[me=sonoci]thus destroyed the "against" side completely and accidentally[/me]



Hahahahaha, no in all seriousness just trying to lighten the mood a bit ._.

I think it was a well-mannered and well-needed gesture. (:

[Tawi]

Catholics, for example, continue to respect and worship a Pope that deliberately and systematically covers up the rape of young children and threatens anyone wanting to come forward with full excommunication. That's a holy man if I've ever seen one (no sarcasm, actually). And thanks to his stance on contraception, there will be more death on his hands by the time he dies than any mass murderer in history, and the body count will continue to rise long after he's dead. The Catholic Church could use its influence for good for once if they would stop living in the Dark Ages.

Jd-, the mere fact that you used the term "Dark Ages" to give a negative feel to the Middle ages shows how ignorant you are of Christianity and its contributions. If you think Catholicism was the cause for the Dark Ages, then you are most certainly wrong. The Dark Ages was the result of the fall of the Roman Empire. When the empire fell, life fell into utter chaos, people forgot the importance of life's spiritual truths and daily life became filled with insecurity. People were too focused on survival. Violence became commonplace and Feudal systems rose as a counter. The Dark Ages was the consequence of the fall of such a great Empire. Power shifted to Constantinople, as Barbaric tribes settles in Europe. The Franks in Gaul, the Visigoths in spain and the Lombards and Ostrogoths in Italy, etc. Had the Catholic Church not even existed, the Dark Ages would still have come into existence. In fact, without the Catholic Church, the Dark Ages would've become a much darker age.

No one will deny the corruptions of the Church and the horrific deeds of the Popes during latter parts of the Medieval Age. But Christianity, Catholicism to be specific, played A VERY CRUCIAL ROLE, in keeping society stable and progress constant throughout the Middle Ages...to the point that they are credited to SHAPING WESTERN CIVILIZATION, deny this, give me evidence. While life was in chaos, it was Christianity that was the common ground that united the people as a whole. Monasteries blossomed and were key factors in preserving spiritual truths. Monks are credited to copying and translating several ancient manuscripts, preserving knowledge and keeping the knowledge of Greek and Latin alive. Mind you, during this time both Greek and Latin were practically considered as dead languages. Had these monasteries not come into existence, people during that time would have had to start of SCRATCH - science, mathematics, etc. Monasteries saved Western Civilization and Jd-, you should be grateful to us for that. Did I mention that monks also tutored Barbaric rulers, rulers give birth to a royal lineage of kings of different realms. People had complete trust in the church and believed her to be the way to salvation. Priests aided the poor and the sick and dwelled into the sciences. The Church, being the most powerful institution during that time, sponsored science and medicine. The Church gave rise to universities, revolutionized architecture and so on. For Pete's sake Humanism is originally a Christian idea as it was brought about my Catholic thinkers such as Erasmus and Montaigne. Ss it as time progressed, Church rulers were unable to handle the responsibility of such power. The church in the latter portions of the middle ages, became corrupt, more worldly.This gave rise to the reformation. HOWEVER, to deny the church credit for SAVING and SHAPING western civilization is just wrong. All of us owe a lot to Christianity, a lot more.

Had I had my History book with me, I could've written a lot more, believe me. Unfortunately, it's in my locker at school for the Christmas break. And before you say so, no it isn't a Christian history book, its a world history book written on neutral ground. It credits the Catholic Church for saving western civilization while mentioning the abuses it fell into later on. I'll say this, Jd- I appreciate the subbing you do for everybody but you are misinformed regarding the Catholic Church. - Tawi

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Hahahahaha, no in all seriousness just trying to lighten the mood a bit ._.

From the Scandinavia and the World guy.

[Tawi]

I'd be willing to bet cold hard cash that in 75 years or less, the Catholic Church will accept homosexual marriage or be subject to a series of schisms that fracture a chunk of its base in Europe and North America.

Bet on Chekhov.

[Edogawa4869]

Hahahahaha, no in all seriousness just trying to lighten the mood a bit ._.

Spoiler:

From the Scandinavia and the World guy.

Perhaps a tad insensitive, but I'll admit that I found it funny. xD

[ConansSideWalk]

On the behalf of everyone I say sorry ziraulo for how this turned out xD MacGuffin I say we up the stakes on that bet. I suggest any new person please answer the survey as well as add onto the discussion in one post if you have yet to do so.