DCTP's Hardsub Policy

[CTU]

I always thought the videos were hardsubberd because it was simpler for the viewers. Not everybody is computer literate and may not know how to turn on subbed in WMP or whatever there default video player in there PC is

[Akonyl]

I'd also like to say that regarding text size, DCTP's subs are some of the largest and most readable subs I've ever seen.

I still have bad memories of how all the horrible subs have the exact same, horrible, tiny text. Even for different anime. Of course this makes it very easy to figure out which ones have terrible subs without actually knowing japanese.

not to mention lots of them are yellow. I strongly dislike tiny horrible yellow subs.

[kkslider5552000]

I'd also like to say that regarding text size, DCTP's subs are some of the largest and most readable subs I've ever seen.

I still have bad memories of how all the horrible subs have the exact same, horrible, tiny text. Even for different anime. Of course this makes it very easy to figure out which ones have terrible subs without actually knowing japanese.

not to mention lots of them are yellow. I strongly dislike tiny horrible yellow subs.

I don't remember seeing any like that?

But I don't remember seeing non-Conan or Zetsubou Sensei subbed anime since...Sigh?

also title change

[Akonyl]

I'd also like to say that regarding text size, DCTP's subs are some of the largest and most readable subs I've ever seen.

I still have bad memories of how all the horrible subs have the exact same, horrible, tiny text. Even for different anime. Of course this makes it very easy to figure out which ones have terrible subs without actually knowing japanese.

not to mention lots of them are yellow. I strongly dislike tiny horrible yellow subs.

I don't remember seeing any like that?

But I don't remember seeing non-Conan or Zetsubou Sensei subbed anime since...Sigh?

also title change

more often than not it's on older subbed stuff, but I mean stuff like this

Spoiler:

[Abs.]

I always thought the videos were hardsubberd because it was simpler for the viewers. Not everybody is computer literate and may not know how to turn on subbed in WMP or whatever there default video player in there PC is

Do believe Conan vs. Lupin III was a prime example of that.

[meidei]

I'd also like to say that regarding text size, DCTP's subs are some of the largest and most readable subs I've ever seen.

I still have bad memories of how all the horrible subs have the exact same, horrible, tiny text. Even for different anime. Of course this makes it very easy to figure out which ones have terrible subs without actually knowing japanese.

not to mention lots of them are yellow. I strongly dislike tiny horrible yellow subs.

Hey, what's wrong with the yellow? 
I configured my media player to use a yellow-orange font for not styled subs (this is, .srt).
There are not tiny though.

[Akonyl]

I'd also like to say that regarding text size, DCTP's subs are some of the largest and most readable subs I've ever seen.

I still have bad memories of how all the horrible subs have the exact same, horrible, tiny text. Even for different anime. Of course this makes it very easy to figure out which ones have terrible subs without actually knowing japanese.

not to mention lots of them are yellow. I strongly dislike tiny horrible yellow subs.

Hey, what's wrong with the yellow? 
I configured my media player to use a yellow-orange font for not styled subs (this is, .srt).
There are not tiny though.

I know that in truth, there's nothing "wrong" about yellow fonts.

I just hate them. And, on average, I've found that subs which are yellow-text have a higher probability of being bad than white subs (or subs that use different colors for different situations).

[Piko]

Hi.


I'm sorry for bringing up an old topic like that, but I think the main question hasn't been answered, and I'm interested in knowing it.

Indeed, Jd- in your message, you say clearly that DCTP do not do hardsub for political reasons — and I am glad to hear that —, but you never really explain why you chose hardsub over softsub ? Because well ... if it's only for technical reasons, then again the only arguments I could think of are toward softsub (which is, imho, more userfriendly from all points of vue).

As I tend to prefer softsub for the flexibility it offers for the user, but also for moral reasons (being a Linux user and all ... you know), I'd like to hear a good argument as to why you would do hardsub over softsub — especially if it is a technical one.


Anyway, thank you for your consideration, and my apologies for upping such an old topic.

[Akonyl]

iirc, the main reasons would probably be that providing softsubs is essentially providing raws (which DCTP is against) and that some less technically inclined people have trouble getting subs to work. Or, services like megavideo, which iirc don't display softsubs at all.

also, in the event that a time sync mismatch occurs (though I haven't seen any in DCTP releases), hardsubbing just makes there one variable less to tweak, as when you have softsubs it can be either the subs or the audio that's off-sync rather than just audio.

[Piko]

Well, your point stressing timing errors is understandable, but can be argued I think. But I'll just say it's up to everyone's liking with this one.

As for the "providing raws" argument, I can see what you mean. But still, that's slightly dishonest, as we all know we're doing illegal stuff, that raws can be found elsewere on the net (well, maybe this part is not true for all conan stuff that DCTP has brought up throughout the years ...).


Plus, one thing I like with softsub, is that I can put subtitles on the black borders of my screen, and they hinder no more the comfort of reading (albeit it would no longer be the case if I were to buy a new TV/Computer screen ^^)

[Jd-]

Indeed, Jd- in your message, you say clearly that DCTP do not do hardsub for political reasons — and I am glad to hear that —, but you never really explain why you chose hardsub over softsub ? Because well ... if it's only for technical reasons, then again the only arguments I could think of are toward softsub (which is, imho, more userfriendly from all points of vue).

As I tend to prefer softsub for the flexibility it offers for the user, but also for moral reasons (being a Linux user and all ... you know), I'd like to hear a good argument as to why you would do hardsub over softsub — especially if it is a technical one.

As for the "providing raws" argument, I can see what you mean. But still, that's slightly dishonest, as we all know we're doing illegal stuff, that raws can be found elsewere on the net (well, maybe this part is not true for all conan stuff that DCTP has brought up throughout the years ...).

Plus, one thing I like with softsub, is that I can put subtitles on the black borders of my screen, and they hinder no more the comfort of reading (albeit it would no longer be the case if I were to buy a new TV/Computer screen ^^)

Here is how I can best sum up DCTP's stance on this issue:

Soft subs are not compatible with what it is we do at DCTP.

The following are the only possible reasons I can ever see soft subs being worthwhile, and why they are not compatible with DCTP's agenda:

- Allowing for speedy releases ...which DCTP isn't interested in--we aim for quality and the releases will take as long as they take, no sooner, no later.

- Allowing people to turn off the subtitles to watch the "raw" ...which we are also not interested in whatsoever--if someone wants to watch a raw, they can watch a raw they find elsewhere. As an aside: DCTP does not provide raws of any kind to the public because we do not want to be considered a raws outlet. There are other places for that.

- Allowing the subtitles to be modified ...and no matter the reason, we are not interested in this--we provide the releases exactly as we want them to be seen, and are not interested in anyone modifying them for their own personal convenience or otherwise. We are confident that, for 99.9% of the anime-viewing audience, there is absolutely no driving need to move, upsize, or otherwise alter the subtitles in order to enjoy our releases. Most people would never need to nor feel compelled to modify the borders of the subtitles themselves, for example, or, as you suggested, need to move them down to the bottom of their screens.

- Allowing the scripts to be ripped, for personal use or otherwise ...which we are not for, because we, again, provide the releases as we wish them to be seen; we do not care if anyone wants to put them on another raw, because that is not what we are here for. The only reason I can see this being reasonable is allowing for foreign groups to more easily use our scripts for their own releases, but we already have a program in place to more directly assist such efforts.

- Allowing the inclusion of multiple subtitle streams ...which we have used for the international editions and will continue to do so when applicable, but obviously has no bearing on for our hundreds upon hundreds of other releases.

About soft subs somehow being more "user-friendly" than hard subs:

Soft subs are, inherently, not more user-friendly. Keep in mind: Something being "user-friendly" refers to it being accessible and offering a low barrier of entry. It does not refer to allowing for greater customization and flexibility for advanced users. In fact, your arguments for wishing them to be soft subs are about your own personal convenience, which requires knowledge of how the subtitles and containers work in the first place and, thus, is not about being friendly to the average user at all.

Hard subs are embedded into the video and thus will play if the video plays (user-friendly). That is not the case with soft subs (which requires both the video to play and a subtitle renderer to be installed properly and in effect). Hell, some of my players still won't play soft subs without considerable tinkering and I've been fansubbing for over six years. I can't imagine what it would be like for those with less experience that run into such problems. Another compatibility issue for soft subs is standalone players. Hard subs will, again, play if the video plays, but soft subs are rarely properly supported by standalone players and thus require additional encoding in order to play them on such players.

I know some people, particularly those that are a little more familiar with the innerworkings of the fansubbing scene, really love soft subs, but the simple fact of the matter is that hard subs are better for a wider audience and are, simultaneously, more compatible with DCTP's agenda. Not only do they offer unquestioned greater compatibility (and thus are more friendly to the user), they allow us to present the releases as we wish them to be seen.

I would also like to take this time to note that DCTP is all about compatibility. We wish for literally everyone to be able to see Conan, and that's why we still take the time to do XviD AVI releases even though most groups have abandoned the effort. Yes, it requires more time on our part to always release XviD versions, but there are still people who do not have the ability to play H264 content, and we are not about to leave them behind. We would rather take that extra time and effort to ensure there is no one having to constantly worry about how to catch the next episode of their favorite series over simply not being able to play a certain codec. Conan is a series that shouldn't be a hassle to watch--it should be available to everyone, and that's why we will never stop releasing XviD for our new episodes and movies until every last person can watch H264 comfortably on their own computer without concern.

I hope that answers your question!

[Piko]

Yes it does, thank you for your developped answer !

So basically, it's all about compatibility and availability for a wider audience, which is a fair argument as far as the DCTP goes. Then if I may, I still feel compelled to answer to a few things you pointed out :

- About softsubs compatibility, I think every player out there capable of reading a H264 encoded .mkv would play embedded softsubs just fine. If I were to release a fansub somehow somewhere, it would include both XviD hardsubbed .avi for "average users" and H264 softsubbed .mkv for "advanced users". That how I think of it. And I'd rather advise people opting for .mkv to install a correct media player if they encounter difficulties (this way everyone can be satisfied).

- My mistake for using the world "user-friendly" for softsubs, where I was thinking of it as "more flexible" (thus in a way more "user-friendly", but not in the common sense of the term).

- When you list the possible reasons that could make softsubs worthwhile over hardsubs, well you talk a lot about what DCTP is not interested in, but do not think about what the recipient would be interested in, and that's too bad. For example for the "moving subtitles to the black borders" part, I believe once a user get used to it, it becomes very enjoyable being able to have subtitles moved into the black borders (but it has its cons : translated signs placed at special positions on the video may be misplaced, etc.).

- For your second argument about "being able to watch the raw", I consider this the same issue as an international release. If someone fluent in japanese wants to watch the show unsubbed, then so be it. But if he wants to watch it with some of his friends, then what ? He would keep 2 versions of every movie because one is hardsubbed and the other is not ? Well, as it matters mostly for movies which deserve an international translation, the problem is solved for those whose international edition.



Other than that I don't really have anything to complain about. Especially when you're doing such a good job and thus your releases do not really need to be edited or restyled.

[Jd-]

When you list the possible reasons that could make softsubs worthwhile over hardsubs, well you talk a lot about what DCTP is not interested in, but do not think about what the recipient would be interested in, and that's too bad.

I can't say I find the emphasized statement above to be true. Everything we do is for "the recipients". As far as I'm concerned, the only part that's "too bad" is that you seem willing to equate a very limited minority of which you are a member with the actual majority, which just isn't something I can do. You can say we do not think about what "the recipient would be interested in", but that's more or less missing the point entirely. The thing we actually are not interested in is finding ways to pander to each individual person even should it be in spite of the majority and the majority's best interests. If we went your route and did soft subs, there would be many more people wanting hard subs back. We make decisions that we feel are best for the absolute largest amount of people, and that's just how it has to be. We simply cannot pander to each individual person's personal preferences. We obviously still listen to everyone's opinions, but there's just simply no reason to switch to soft subs that can't be countered with five more in favor of hard subs.

That said, your response to the raw situation doesn't really come off as being of much consequence. Again, we cannot possibly pander to each little personal preference. It's just unrealistic, unreasonable, and impractical. Using this rather convoluted scenario doesn't really exhibit anything other than one example of very, very many possibilities--almost all of which negate the basis of this one. Yes, this would solve this one "issue" (that isn't even really an "issue", let's be clear, as it is very easily solved by just downloading a raw and a subbed version without inconveniencing a few thousand people in the process), but it would create a plethora of other problems as described in the last post.

It's just a simple fact of life that you cannot please everyone, but what we try to do is please as many as possible and at least hear out the gripes of those not exactly on board. I dunno how many other places you're going to find a group willing to hear you out at length as is the case here, so at least that's something, I'd hope.

[xpon]

- When you list the possible reasons that could make softsubs worthwhile over hardsubs, well you talk a lot about what DCTP is not interested in, but do not think about what the recipient would be interested in, and that's too bad. For example for the "moving subtitles to the black borders" part, I believe once a user get used to it, it becomes very enjoyable being able to have subtitles moved into the black borders (but it has its cons : translated signs placed at special positions on the video may be misplaced, etc.).

sorry.. but i never seen any bottom black border part on my screen..some old episode will have a black border in each side ( left and right ) but i NEVER got the bottom black in conan anime.

when i watch some hollywood movie, i sometimes get the black border and i understand what you are saying. because it is more nice to have the soft sub so you can make the subtitle larger and dont show in the movie but in the black area.

but i never even once experience it with conan. did your monitor is not supporting wide format? (16:9) ?

what resolutions your monitor is?

[Piko]

I can't say I find the emphasized statement above to be true. Everything we do is for "the recipients".

By "for the recipient" I though "a policy that try to cope with as many different expectations as possible". Thus XviD hardcodded .avi and H264 softsubbed .mkv seemed to me that it covers such a wide panel. But if "for the recipient" your mean "try to satify the most frequent excpectations", that's quite different. Anyway, it's your decision, and I'm fine with that.

We obviously still listen to everyone's opinions, but there's just simply no reason to switch to soft subs that can't be countered with five more in favor of hard subs.

As far as the discussion goes, the only convincing argument in favor of harsub I've heard is the one about compatibilty for everyone — the others are more of the « why we do not need softsub » kind, which should not impede to do softsub should the whim arise. But anyway, I'm also fine with that.

Thank you for your time answering my claims Jd-.

but i never even once experience it with conan. did your monitor is not supporting wide format? (16:9) ?

what resolutions your monitor is?

Good point indeed. With Conan the resolution ratio is quite lower than with recent movie (whose are usually in 16:9 and all). My current screen's resolution is 1440×900, hence a ratio of 16:10. I have another monitor (quite old now) whose resolution ratio is even lower : 1280×1024, hence a ratio of 5:4. On both screens, try to play the last Conan movie, you will have 2 slight horizontal borders. Thus it may not be a good idea to put subs in the black borders (they are too thin).

I must say after reflexion that with anime, the resolution ratio is usually to low to allow me to put subs in the black borders, whereas that's something I always do with real movies.