Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » October 23rd, 2014, 2:50 pm

At the end of chapter 33, why is Kaito complaining about his mom having an affair? If he still thinks his dad is dead, that makes Chikage single. Does Gosho think that once a spouse has died someone absolutely must remain chaste for the rest of their lives out of memories for their former love? I understand that some widows decide not to get together with someone again and it's a fine choice to make, but I didn't realize that looking for someone else was considered undesirable behavior in Japan, especially for a woman still in her late twenties/early thirties when she was widowed.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby Mario2000 » October 23rd, 2014, 5:08 pm

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:At the end of chapter 33, why is Kaito complaining about his mom having an affair? If he still thinks his dad is dead, that makes Chikage single. Does Gosho think that once a spouse has died someone absolutely must remain chaste for the rest of their lives out of memories for their former love? I understand that some widows decide not to get together with someone again and it's a fine choice to make, but I didn't realize that looking for someone else was considered undesirable behavior in Japan, especially for a woman still in her late twenties/early thirties when she was widowed.

I would have had the same reaction in such a situation if I was Kaito. There is nothing wrong with being an idealist. On one hand, people say "our loved ones who died will forever live in our hearts", on the other hand people search for new partners. I mean, the sad thing in my opinion isn't that they "have the right to do so" or not, but that they even WANT TO. Even though, if they have such a desire, it would be useless to get them to change their opinion, but I fully sympathize with Kaito Kid and his prioritizing the grief for his father and the former family rather than the thoughts about his mother's future possible romances. Even though I mostly don't like Kaito Kid, in this case I have no problem in understanding him.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby Nemomon » October 23rd, 2014, 5:38 pm

But Toichi died 8 years ago. Kaito had more than enough time to accept that. Plus, it seems Chikage isn't living with Kaito since a while now, so he basically doesn't know if she already doesn't have a man.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby Mario2000 » October 23rd, 2014, 5:44 pm

Nemomon wrote:But Toichi died 8 years ago. Kaito had more than enough time to accept that. Plus, it seems Chikage isn't living with Kaito since a while now, so he basically doesn't know if she already doesn't have a man.

I understand, maybe you're right. It's just that "eternal faithfulness" in romance is presently my biggest ideal. Not just "lifelong", but "eternal", when somebody stays faithful to the memories even after the partner's death. Don't really know why, but I am a fan of almost non-existing in real life romances like "people who were close their whole lives, since childhood and forever". Just a sort of ideal dream for me.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby Shiromi » October 23rd, 2014, 5:54 pm

LOL, Kaito's mom trolled him expertly!
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » October 23rd, 2014, 11:56 pm

Nemomon wrote:But Toichi died 8 years ago. Kaito had more than enough time to accept that. Plus, it seems Chikage isn't living with Kaito since a while now, so he basically doesn't know if she already doesn't have a man.
I had an interesting conversation with RSP thought it might be a reflection of Kaito's grief and his overall youthful immaturity. Kaito worshiped his father and still does, so it makes sense that he isn't ready to accept someone else taking his father's place in any respect.

Mario2000 wrote:
Nemomon wrote:But Toichi died 8 years ago. Kaito had more than enough time to accept that. Plus, it seems Chikage isn't living with Kaito since a while now, so he basically doesn't know if she already doesn't have a man.

I understand, maybe you're right. It's just that "eternal faithfulness" in romance is presently my biggest ideal. Not just "lifelong", but "eternal", when somebody stays faithful to the memories even after the partner's death. Don't really know why, but I am a fan of almost non-existing in real life romances like "people who were close their whole lives, since childhood and forever". Just a sort of ideal dream for me.

I think Gosho might feel the same way as you based on how he did Sato, Matsuda, and Takagi. Sato knew Matsuda for seven days; which realistically makes their relationship pretty shallow on par with a crush. Despite this, Gosho still writes it like it was a true deep love. Repeated deaths of people Sato cared for have scarred her to the point she is afraid of getting close to others, which might lead her to idealize her relationship with Matsuda as a way of avoiding future relationships that might also be terminated by death. Even though Sato had this trauma to explain her problems, everyone was instead preoccupied with the notion that this past love would keep her from moving on ever, unless it got resolved. This may sound overly cynical but I get the impression Gosho did some sort of balancing act where he decided seven days is long enough to pretend a deep love relationship formed between them so that Sato could be hung up on him years later about it, but a week is short enough that it's allowed for Sato to love someone else without being "unfaithful", but only if his case gets solved for him.

Spoiler: longer explanation
Sato knew Matsuda for seven days. Matsuda had that prickly male tsundere personality, Sato had latent inhibitions going back to childhood about getting close to people because those she cared for deeply kept being killed, and Matsuda only confessed to liking her in the last second. It wasn't like Sato and Matsuda hit it off immediately and rapidly progressed in a relationship in those seven days - she was still complaining to him about his attitude on the sixth day. Realistically, it would be weird to characterize Sato's feelings as anything more than a crush; they didn't have enough time and experience together needed to anchor the relationship as real love. However, based on how Sato's feelings are portrayed and how other characters react, it seems Gosho wants us to think that Sato somehow reached true love status with Matsuda in seven days. That feels artificial.

The second point is that Gosho had a perfectly serviceable reason for why Sato would get overly attached to Matsuda to the exclusion of any other men for years that doesn't involve any ideals about first loves being eternal and pure. Sato was reluctant to have a relationship with Takagi despite her feelings because she felt she couldn't escape her curse; people whom she became close to would be killed. It's irrational but understandable because Sato had been scarred in her impressionable childhood when her father, teacher, and senior friend all died on her unexpectedly. After Matsuda died, it just cemented the feeling further. Sato then put her time with Matsuda on a pedestal because she felt guilty and scared to have feelings for other people that could expose herself to loss again. If this was the case, she might try to convince herself that Matsuda was the one and act like he was in front of others.

To be fair, Gosho did include aforementioned trauma elements to explain some of Sato's relationship reluctance and devotion to Matsuda. However, Gosho made "eternal pure love for someone who has passed" more important than the truama to explain why she can't get over Matsuda. For instance, the dialogue between Takagi and Shiratori and later Conan and Takagi about Matsuda identified Sato being tied to her past love as the obstacle blocking her relationships with others ("the inerasable memory") and not the past pattern of loss creating a psychological trauma. Haibara, admitted authorial mouthpiece, blatantly said it: The memory of lost ones remains beautiful in the heart forever.

Emphasis on idealized eternal first love vs Sato's trauma is clear when you look at the plot of the case. The outright-stated premise of the bombing case is that Sato can never escape her past pain and have a relationship with another man unless Matsuda's case was solved. If Sato's primary reason for being unable to move on is because she is scared to have feelings for others that could expose herself to loss, then solving Matsuda's case doesn't really repair the underlying confidence issues; that bomber won't kill anyone, but something else could. Second is that the trauma really only affects Sato's relationships with eligible men; Sato doesn't feel trouble being close to Yumi or Megure for instance. Thus the trauma seems to be a flimsy excuse and less important than satisfying Matsuda's memory.

Keeping all this in mind, Takagi would never have a chance with Sato no matter how kind and good he is to her because Sato is more faithful to Matsuda's memory, and this is portrayed more as a character virtue rather than a psychological problem. Thus, that implies that it wouldn't be right, i.e. unfaithful, for Sato to move on from Matsuda because she liked Takagi and felt ready to explore a relationship with him without solving Matsuda's case first and effectively invoking an escape clause from "one true eternal pure love".

This is a trend you see in a lot of Gosho's relationships. They have one first true love and they aren't allowed to move on unless they satisfy an appropriate provision to end it. You see that in Kaito's reaction to his widowed mother's talk about seeing another guy. Shiratori gets an out because Sato wasn't the one true love after all. Eri and Kogoro are stuck together despite marital problems that have separated them for years. This isn't a Gosho-only problem though. It seems to be a trope among a lot of Japanese writers; you rarely see someone move on after a true love-type relationship to another person. In the shounen/shoujo demographic it's also uncommon the have two characters with prior "real" relationships. So many Japanese writers have two characters get on the train towards marriage with their first love.



Mario2000 wrote:I would have had the same reaction in such a situation if I was Kaito. There is nothing wrong with being an idealist. On one hand, people say "our loved ones who died will forever live in our hearts", on the other hand people search for new partners. I mean, the sad thing in my opinion isn't that they "have the right to do so" or not, but that they even WANT TO. Even though, if they have such a desire, it would be useless to get them to change their opinion, but I fully sympathize with Kaito Kid and his prioritizing the grief for his father and the former family rather than the thoughts about his mother's future possible romances. Even though I mostly don't like Kaito Kid, in this case I have no problem in understanding him.
Personally, I have seen too many lonely widows/widowers to think "eternal" is worth idealizing. Memories of the dead don't help them find their glasses in the morning, don't treat them when they feel sick, don't comfort them when their friends die, and don't celebrate with them when their grandchildren are born. I don't like the idea of there being a pressure to remain single out of some imagined respect to past memories because being with a living someone who loves you deeply and you in return is perhaps the greatest joy in life. Being alone is hard, I would never wish that fate to someone I loved, even if that means they will love someone just the same as me.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby S.Vineyard » October 24th, 2014, 1:39 am

This chapter somehow reminded me of the 2002/2003 Batman: Hush comic series. In one chapter, the long dead Jason Todd, seemed to have been resurrected from the dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Todd

They then solved it with him been the shapeshifter Clayface. However, a few years later it was turned out that that it really was Jason in that comic and they brought him back permanently.

Imo. Gosho wants to test how people would react to a return of Toichi.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby MrDetective » October 24th, 2014, 3:37 pm

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:At the end of chapter 33, why is Kaito complaining about his mom having an affair? If he still thinks his dad is dead, that makes Chikage single. Does Gosho think that once a spouse has died someone absolutely must remain chaste for the rest of their lives out of memories for their former love? I understand that some widows decide not to get together with someone again and it's a fine choice to make, but I didn't realize that looking for someone else was considered undesirable behavior in Japan, especially for a woman still in her late twenties/early thirties when she was widowed.



I don't think it has anything to do with Gosho, but it's very common for someone to be annoyed when his/her mother have an affair with someone other than his/her father even if he is dead
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby OlgaAkai1998 » October 24th, 2014, 4:01 pm

I've a question: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki ... _Thief_Kid
Where was Kaito Corbeau in the chapter 1 from MK1214? I was finding the chapter 1 and I was shocked when I read it. XDDD
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby Jd- » October 25th, 2014, 10:55 am

Kaito Corbeau being present in Magic Kaito 1412 is an added detail that was not present in the original section of the manga from which the episode is sourced. Gosho worked with the producers ahead of time to allow for these details to be seamlessly integrated into the series, hopefully with the aim of having a full Kid anime that will adapt through Phantom Lady and this recent case as well.

As for the matter of Chikage and Toichi and Kaito from the recent series: This is almost certainly all misdirection. Chikage saying what she did and Kaito calling it an affair confirms that Chikage isn't actually with anyone new. Gosho is highly unlikely to ever write something like that for a central character, as innocuous as it would be in real life. It's a meager misunderstanding on Kaito's part about what his mom is up to.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby Kor » October 30th, 2014, 6:04 pm

I liked this heist for the most part, especially with almost all the characters appearing in these 3 files (Keiko was the only one absent, right?)
Dunno how I should feel about the possibility of Toichi being alive. This kinda undermines way too much, and it'd leave Akemi as the truly only dead good person in both series. Plus, coming out of the Bourbon arc, well...
At the very least, if Toichi is alive, I hope Gosho planned this long ago, and didn't just decide to do this because of that character from DC.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:At the end of chapter 33, why is Kaito complaining about his mom having an affair? If he still thinks his dad is dead, that makes Chikage single. Does Gosho think that once a spouse has died someone absolutely must remain chaste for the rest of their lives out of memories for their former love? I understand that some widows decide not to get together with someone again and it's a fine choice to make, but I didn't realize that looking for someone else was considered undesirable behavior in Japan, especially for a woman still in her late twenties/early thirties when she was widowed.


I feel like you're somewhat taking too much out of one single line in Kaito's head.
While I'm a lot of Gosho's beliefs are somewhat reflected through his characters, I do think it's worth separating between what Gosho thinks and what Kaito thinks, especially since it's only one line, and this issue wasn't really explored yet (and I doubt it will be explored in this manga anyway).
About what this says about Kaito (and I read most of your discussion with RSP), I also think it's unfair to analyse Kaito's psychology too much based on this line. The way I first read it was more akin to him thinking "lol my crazy mother, the hell are you doing?" (but that's just what I took from it). The thing is, I don't really see Kaito complaining here. Unless Kaito actually says something to his mother about how he doesn't think she should date someone (because Toichi or other reasons), this inner voice line alone doesn't really say much.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby MrDetective » November 4th, 2014, 4:10 pm

They could have just went and animate the same order of chapters as the original manga.

but nooooooooooo, they decided to mess things up. Result? no character developement, poor pacing
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby Jecka » November 4th, 2014, 5:27 pm

MrDetective wrote:no character developement, poor pacing

A-1 Pictures everybody :V

Honestly tho, They can do what ever they want, as long as the owner says it's ok.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby Kor » November 4th, 2014, 6:08 pm

I'm not entirely sure why this sort of discussion is taking place in this thread and not in the anime's thread, but whatever.

MrDetective wrote:no character developement, poor pacing


What character development? I read the MK manga a few years ago already, so I may have forgotten, but what essential character development are we missing out on exactly?

Also, how is the pacing poor? Besides episode 4's two heists in one episode, what's so poor about it? A heist per episode is similar to what we got in the former specials, and it's also utilising the same format as Detective Conan.

I just want to understand more clearly the explanation behind these statements.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Magic Kaito Chapters 31-33

Postby MrDetective » November 5th, 2014, 12:18 pm

Kor wrote:I'm not entirely sure why this sort of discussion is taking place in this thread and not in the anime's thread, but whatever.

MrDetective wrote:no character developement, poor pacing


What character development? I read the MK manga a few years ago already, so I may have forgotten, but what essential character development are we missing out on exactly?

Also, how is the pacing poor? Besides episode 4's two heists in one episode, what's so poor about it? A heist per episode is similar to what we got in the former specials, and it's also utilising the same format as Detective Conan.

I just want to understand more clearly the explanation behind these statements.


I don't have a problem with the first two episodes

But I do have one the others. Hakuba's apperance in the manga for instance. He's introduced as a dangerous rival for Kaito. In 3 chapters, he managed to discover his real identity and is almost close to capture him. However, the anime adaptation rushed things up. Hence, we don't see much of his rivalry with Kaito Kid. And yet, there's introducing Shinichi in the next episode.

It's like having a SanGoku vs Vegeta for only ONE episode, and having Goku fighting Freezer in the NEXT ONE.

Oh, and Akako? She's Kaito's ennemy in the beginning. But then, she slowly starts to become her ally, like when she reluctantly helped Kaito escape Hakuba by disguising herself as him. I don't even understand why they introduced her after Hakuba.

That's one of the reasons why I don't like the anime pacing. If they really want to make a MK anime, I'd rather prefer they just take their time to do it and in the original order of chapters, instead of rsuhing things up.

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