Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 818-824 "Mystery Tr

[Tegari]

Totally forgot that Kid was involved with this case (kindaish).

[unclesporkums]

I just want Yukiko to say ''YUSAKU IS NOT HERE'' on the next file, to end this discussion.

^This.

[saorin]

Hm... am I the only one who is kinda suspicious about Sera being knocked out so easily by Vermouth?... Of course, I might be reading too much into this, but I can't shake off the feeling that Sera might be a decoy here - although this would be VERY risky and maybe not so very helpful. I just feel things went a bit too smoothly for Vermouth here. Especially as Sera looked EXTREMELY surprised, despite the fact there are hints she might have suspected Akai being alive all along. Or am I overreacting here? o_o

As for Hat Lady/Supposedly-Yukiko. I'm still thinking Conan had her involved to disguise Akai as Okiya, so there wouldn't be a problem with these two siding and Conan getting messages from her. Her "Sharon" exclamation pretty much reveals it's her I'd say since we don't really know of any other (recurring) characters having interacted with Sharon.
Now, if we assume it's indeed Yukiko, I agree with the theory that Vermouth is throwing out her "suitcase of disguises" - "my favourite one piece" screams "super-duper-disguise-material" for me. =D Though I'm not quite sure why Yukiko might have brought it along - I can't really think of a coherent scenario with these disguises being meant for Ai/Shiho. Because then Conan would have to be in on it, too, wouldn't he? Why would "the good guys" suspect Ai turning to Shiho?
If Yukiko is actually disguising Akai, Conan has to know about this, in my opinion. - Which makes me wonder...were there ever any hints that Yukiko might actually be visiting Shinichi's home frequently?

Furthermore, I don't think Yusaku HAS to be there, as there were several occasions when Yukiko appeared on her own - she's also rather personally involved in the whole BO business; more so than Yusaku I believe (due to her disguising skills, personal connection with Sharon etc.)
Though, IF Yusaku is there, I guess he can only be Kogoro. It's been pointed out repeatedly that he's acting weird. This way, it wouldn't be a problem that Conan tranquilized him - Yusaku knows about that stuff anyway. (I actually found it VERY fishy that the "Sleeping Kogoro" is making an appearance in this of all cases...this method of solving cases has been suspiciously absent for some time and now it's appearing at such a climax case? It appeared to me as if people were made to pay attention to Kogoro for a bit and not forget about him...)
I even think some scenes look very Yusaku-ish to me (the moustache twisting euphoria he's displaying, e.g.)

I don't necessarily need him to appear though, for reasons pointed out above; I'm perfectly fine with him staying out of the picture, but I got a slight feeling he's there...

In addition, YAY for some Ran-involvement. The idea with her confronting either Shiho or Okiya/Akai or even Vermouth again sits fine with me. She needs to take some part in this finally. Not also for the sake of her position as a character but also for the sake of plot progression in general.
Some people might find her a nuisance or superfluous now, but let's face it: Gosho wrote her in in the first place, so we can't ditch her half-way. Gosho tends to neglect her, or at least her involvement, and this needs to be changed at some point - and this would be a good one. =D

[saorin]

..were there ever any hints that Yukiko might actually be visiting Shinichi's home frequently?

The file about yusaku unsolved case have sera deducing that a women has been visiting okiya recently.

Ahh, that lipstick, right?! =D
Thank you, I KNEW there was something in the back of my mind but I couldn't remember! Great; well, that fits pretty nicely then. =)

[sonoci]

Gosho wrote her in in the first place, so we can't ditch her half-way.

It wasn't us that ditched her

It was Gosho :V You said so yourself

Gosho tends to neglect her, or at least her involvement...

:x

I don't mind her being involved, I mind her being on the back-burner for most of the time and then being involved.

and this needs to be changed at some point - and this would be a good one. =D

My personal opinion is that she should either stay uninvolved or stay involved :V She was heavily involved in things early on, and then she wasn't, then she was, then she wasn't, then she was...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Gosho really needs to keep Ran's involvement consistent :V I mean, why does she get curious only at certain critical moments and not in normal cases? This fluctuation just seems lazy to me and unprofessional.

Long story short, Ran can get involved and I won't get too "hOIFSJAIFODioJOIFSJFSJ", BUT that's only if she stays involved and actually remains in an involved position. Something similar happened to Haibara: she was a very heavily involved character, but then she kind of got the shaft. However, her fluctuation in involvement was slightly better as it only happened once. Ran goes all over the place.

The involved/not involved thing only really works for someone like Heiji. Why? He lives in a different area, of course he can't be involved all of the time. Ran and Haibara have no excuse, however, especially Ran. She lives with Conan, she lives with the center of involvement. There is no reason that she should be a fluctuating figure :V I mean, really. There's a major status quo, yet that consistency doesn't apply to one of the core three main characters? What the heck Gosho? :I



Sorry for the sort of rant. It's not really aimed at you, just Gosho's writing decisions in general. Regardless of my opinion, nothing will change anyway, so :x

[Partsu]

Yukiko is a trickster by nature ad has been shown to sneak around without letting Conan know. so her helping Akai without telling Conan is very much possible. (though I think she might have told him through mail during this case)

[saorin]

Gosho wrote her in in the first place, so we can't ditch her half-way.

It wasn't us that ditched her

It was Gosho :V You said so yourself

I mean that people shouldn't start complaining when it's finally looking like she's getting involved "again" because now they say "Well, she wasn't involved before, so why now? I hope she stays out". To me, that is ditching the character for good. And yes, I DID say it was due to Gosho's writing, where does my post contradict my statement? o_O

Gosho tends to neglect her, or at least her involvement...

:x

I don't mind her being involved, I mind her being on the back-burner for most of the time and then being involved.
(...)
My personal opinion is that she should either stay uninvolved or stay involved :V She was heavily involved in things early on, and then she wasn't, then she was, then she wasn't, then she was...

This I understand and I agree. But I want to her to be constantly involved (or at least as much as possible within the circumstances) while some people now seem to want to keep her NOT involved.
For her to finally take a real, not only temporary or on-off part in the story, there needs to be a point where she has to be "introduced" again. I'm just staying I'd like this to be the moment for that. Not more.

and this needs to be changed at some point - and this would be a good one. =D

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Gosho really needs to keep Ran's involvement consistent :V I mean, why does she get curious only at certain critical moments and not in normal cases? This fluctuation just seems lazy to me and unprofessional.

Yes, my comment never contradicted that. Do you think I'd like to vanish her into the depths of oblivion again after taking a part in the Mystery Train chapters? =P Certainly not, I'm agreeing 100% here.
(Though I believe it - sadly - is rather a lack of writing skills than laziness. Then again, I find laziness rather inexcusable, bad writing is just a flaw and not intentional.)

Long story short, Ran can get involved and I won't get too "hOIFSJAIFODioJOIFSJFSJ", BUT that's only if she stays involved and actually remains in an involved position. Something similar happened to Haibara: she was a very heavily involved character, but then she kind of got the shaft. However, her fluctuation in involvement was slightly better as it only happened once. Ran goes all over the place.

The involved/not involved thing only really works for someone like Heiji. Why? He lives in a different area, of course he can't be involved all of the time. Ran and Haibara have no excuse, however, especially Ran. She lives with Conan, she lives with the center of involvement. There is no reason that she should be a fluctuating figure :V I mean, really. There's a major status quo, yet that consistency doesn't apply to one of the core three main characters? What the heck Gosho? :I



Sorry for the sort of rant. It's not really aimed at you, just Gosho's writing decisions in general. Regardless of my opinion, nothing will change anyway, so :x

Wholeheartedly agreed. And I want to underline what you're saying: it's Gosho's writing. But in the end, it's discediting Ran as a character and making her seem more and more "annoying" or "superfluous" to the readers - which I just find a very, very sad thing. Especially as her character doesn't directly deserve such treatment and she actually had some potential - somewhere along the way.

I guess in the end the problem lies with Gosho's initial expectations of the story's length. If he actually thought the story would last only a few volumes, people wouldn't have been too annoyed with Ran's "uninvolvment" with the whole BO Business. She could have stayed out of that entirely. But then, as the story kept continuing, Gosho may have succeeded in adding other characters that bore siginificance to the plot, but was unable to make the "original" characters decent parts of the thing as well. Ran's suspicion + romantic involvement may very well have carried her character over 20 or so volumes. Anything beyond that probably began to prove difficult in terms of involving her in a sensible way. That's just my take on it though. =D

Yukiko is a trickster by nature ad has been shown to sneak around without letting Conan know. so her helping Akai without telling Conan is very much possible. (though I think she might have told him through mail during this case)

Yes, but if Conan knows Okiya = Akai, he probably has been knowing this from the start, as he's the one letting Okiya stay at his place without hesitation. Why shouldn't he also know by this point that it's Yukiko who's responsible for the disguise - or even be the one who suggested it?

[Wakarimashita]

I just see it as one of the numerous requirements of a very very long manga. Character development in long-running mangas tends to be extremely slow if not downright absent. Most of the characters in the main cast are quite stereotypical (but still likeable) and rarely do they play any other role than the one they've been given (it happens of course but when it does things go back as they were before right afterwards and the status quo is restored) : Kogoro is a funny drunkard, Sonoko is the rich but nice girl who loves boys, Ran is the emotional teenager, Conan is the small know-it-all, the DB are the cute little kids, Haibara is the tsundere, Agasa is the old and crazy so called genius etc.

[Yukimi]

Gosho wrote her in in the first place, so we can't ditch her half-way.

It wasn't us that ditched her

It was Gosho :V You said so yourself

Gosho tends to neglect her, or at least her involvement...

:x

I don't mind her being involved, I mind her being on the back-burner for most of the time and then being involved.

and this needs to be changed at some point - and this would be a good one. =D

My personal opinion is that she should either stay uninvolved or stay involved :V She was heavily involved in things early on, and then she wasn't, then she was, then she wasn't, then she was...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Gosho really needs to keep Ran's involvement consistent :V I mean, why does she get curious only at certain critical moments and not in normal cases? This fluctuation just seems lazy to me and unprofessional.

Long story short, Ran can get involved and I won't get too "hOIFSJAIFODioJOIFSJFSJ", BUT that's only if she stays involved and actually remains in an involved position. Something similar happened to Haibara: she was a very heavily involved character, but then she kind of got the shaft. However, her fluctuation in involvement was slightly better as it only happened once. Ran goes all over the place.

The involved/not involved thing only really works for someone like Heiji. Why? He lives in a different area, of course he can't be involved all of the time. Ran and Haibara have no excuse, however, especially Ran. She lives with Conan, she lives with the center of involvement. There is no reason that she should be a fluctuating figure :V I mean, really. There's a major status quo, yet that consistency doesn't apply to one of the core three main characters? What the heck Gosho? :I



Sorry for the sort of rant. It's not really aimed at you, just Gosho's writing decisions in general. Regardless of my opinion, nothing will change anyway, so :x

+1

[conan/over/kudo]

...Ran needs to take some part in this finally. Not also for the sake of her position as a character but also for the sake of plot progression in general.
Some people might find her a nuisance or superfluous now, but let's face it: Gosho wrote her in in the first place, so we can't ditch her half-way. Gosho tends to neglect her, or at least her involvement, and this needs to be changed at some point - and this would be a good one. =D

ran is a damsel in distress who does karate and is really badass - shes more like a pivot for the story than a driving force, imo

[Tegari]

If DC would have only lasted few volumes, then my life would have been quite boring.

[conan/over/kudo]

If DC would have only lasted few volumes, then my life would have been quite boring.

if DC only lasted a few volumes, i would have lived a life of lies reading one piece and bleach.


no offence to any bleach or one piece fans, its just i consider DC to be the top of the category.

[sonoci]

@saorin: I think you missed my point xD' I'm not saying she shouldn't come in in this story - no, I wouldn't mind that - what I'm saying is that if she does, I'd like her to stay. In essence, I was actually agreeing with you. xD

My point was that I don't want her to get involved and then go back to being uninvolved. When I said "either be involved or not" I meant it in a "Gosho, make up your mind rather than teasing us" sort of way.

I'll quote from my original post

I don't mind her being involved, I mind her being on the back-burner for most of the time and then being involved.

If it was in Ran's character to constantly be curious/cautious/investigate things, I wouldn't mind at all. I mind that those traits just pop up when it's useful to get some drama going for BO stuff. Normal cases would actually be more interesting if Ran were actively wondering about Conan...but she doesn't. All of that drama is saved for BO things...when it really could be used to add to normal cases along with BO cases.

Long story short: for a main heroine, Gosho handles Ran very clumsily, and when it comes to the important stuff, the way he handles her throughout the series makes it seem as if she's literally being thrown in just because she's a main character, rather than it feeling like she should be there. In this particular case, her curiosity is being handled better (than, say, the Shirigami arc) but if Gosho ends up dropping her back into the "know nothing at all" territory again after this, it would be a really bad choice IMO

I understand status quo and all of that, but I wish that Gosho would have actually taken some sort of initiative to make Ran more interesting when he could see that DC would be a long-runner. Her character really doesn't transition well as is. If only he hadn't almost completely dumped her karate 


ANYWAY, this is really off-topic and shouldn't be followed up on for the sake of keeping this thread on its rails. This whole thing is subjective and based on different views, thus continuing would be pretty pointless

Though I will say one last thing

shes more like a pivot for the story than a driving force, imo

While I agree with this

ran is a damsel in distress ...

I have to disagree with this (as usual when it comes up ). Ran being a DoD is a stereotype created and flanderized by anime-only material like OVAs, movies, and fillers. Rarely in the manga is Ran actually in distress. I would like to stress this point as much as possible, especially in a manga related discussion topic



BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND

I too am one of the people believing that Yuusaku is not on the train. We already had a bit of taste of him a few cases ago, and Yukiko tends to go off on her own.
I guess it's like the saying  "Where's there smoke, there's fire". "The fallacy occurs because you have jumped to that conclusion without actually knowing what caused the smoke — several different things can create smoke or smoke-like effects without there being a fire involved." ...aka, Yukiko = smoke while Yuusaku = fire. When there's fire (Yuusaku) there almost definitely will be smoke (Yukiko) but the reverse isn't necessarily true

[unclesporkums]

I too am one of the people believing that Yuusaku is not on the train. We already had a bit of taste of him a few cases ago, and Yukiko tends to go off on her own.
I guess it's like the saying  "Where's there smoke, there's fire". "The fallacy occurs because you have jumped to that conclusion without actually knowing what caused the smoke — several different things can create smoke or smoke-like effects without there being a fire involved." ...aka, Yukiko = smoke while Yuusaku = fire. When there's fire (Yuusaku) there almost definitely will be smoke (Yukiko) but the reverse isn't necessarily true

^ Nice analogy!

[conan/over/kudo]

ran is a damsel in distress ...

I have to disagree with this (as usual when it comes up ). Ran being a DoD is a stereotype created and flanderized by anime-only material like OVAs, movies, and fillers. Rarely in the manga is Ran actually in distress. I would like to stress this point as much as possible, especially in a manga related discussion topic

haha i agree that she is DEFINITELY more damsel-ly in the anime, and im sorry for making a generalised and uninformed statement. (i did point out that shes also badass  )
but i'll say just in case, that i didnt exactly mean damsel in distress in a physical sense...which sounds weird =P but i cant really put it into words.