Anokata theory: The boss may be...

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Themaninarmor
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby Themaninarmor » December 13th, 2017, 6:33 am

thriceplus wrote:
Spoiler:
All the talk of accepting Renya as the boss is extremely similar to all the talk of just accepting Jodie as Vermouth, accepting Okiya as Bourbon or hell even now with people just saying that the teacher is Rum because of the APTX list. If you guys were around the DC fandom (especially the Jodie=Vermouth phase where a lot of people didn't even question it) back in the days, you'll know what I'm talking about. It's either a huge red herring or there's a big twist to it somewhere (like Renya under disguise as another character because he drank APTX or something).


Spoiler:
i never approve a pattern in DC as a proof for some theory that fans do nowadays. It just a hint, never depends on it. Also, what Gosho did isn't just pick some random character to be boss because of his health like some people thought!?. There is a lot of hint about boss and BO but one that pick my interest is "If we know about that the real name of the BO then we will know the identity of the boss" and The boss already appeared in manga somewhere (either name, face, or siluet). Let's say the real name of the BO is Yakuza or Mafia. But we still can't learn about the identity of the boss. So it means the name of BO must be a company or crime organization name which based by family simbol or name. Like Suzuki, Honda or a name of animal or things as the family symbol, one thing that pick my interest is a lot of agent that infiltrate the BO never know the real name of BO... But only haibara which seems to know. It seems Gosho made the name of the BO a secret not only from the fans but also from the character. From that i have 2 conclusion.
If gosho hide it from fans, it means the name related to people who already appeared not the people who appeared later.
If gosho hide it from the character, it means the name have some big influence in the World of DC and also related to people with power or renown in DC. So i search a lot of character and have 2 major suspect and a few of minor suspect. The 2 suspect is karasuma and suzuki family and thats my basis for my theory. So, when asaca rum code appeared, i quickly realize another possible meaning which is carasuma.


But like i said before... The order is wrong and there is possibility i'm wrong. But it still fun to know how close your theory are.

Spoiler:
i agree that the boss identity maybe not renya, but i may have to look at the past file especially the karasuma case or the reason of the drug was created.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby Jamie M. Plankton » December 13th, 2017, 7:31 am

Btw, I always thought Vermouth could have been male, we can't be sure when it comes to Vermouth.
Spoiler:
And Anokata Karasuma Renya aka Maria being female Vermouth can be husband.

It seems weird, but not impossible.
Triangular Maze
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby Triangular Maze » December 13th, 2017, 6:36 pm

Spoiler:
Regarding the Maria theory: very interesting.

One more thing to note: the title of the first chapter she appeared in - File 548: 怪人二百面相. Wikipedia has the English translation as "The fiend with the 200 faces", but a quick dictionary search simply shows "mysterious person" as a possible way to interpret 怪人. (The official German volume has it as "devil"... to add drama, I guess?)

In the context of the chapter, of course, it referred to a note scribbled by the teacher Ms. Kobayashi, who pretended to have disappeared to give the kids some puzzle to solve and help the new students fit in.
Could it also be a subtle clue by Aoyama?

If the boss is Maria In disguise, then s/he is (yet another) character adept at changing their identity, in which case the description "mysterious person with 200 faces" would fit.

Other things:
-Maria lets out an Osakan accent by accident, and Ai remarks how a person will never lose an accent, only "take them off like jewelry" (German translation), and that she shouldn't be ashamed.
-Genta didn't even notice Maria until she got paired up with their group, even though she had been in the class for some time - showing that she doesn't stand out and can go by unnoticed (maybe reaching, since Ayumi did know who she was,
and Genta is generally a buffoon.

Good theory. What I like most is that it would make sense to have the final boss be a kid like Conan. And with Maria, no one would suspect it.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby thriceplus » December 13th, 2017, 9:15 pm

Triangular Maze wrote:
Spoiler:
Regarding the Maria theory: very interesting.

One more thing to note: the title of the first chapter she appeared in - File 548: 怪人二百面相. Wikipedia has the English translation as "The fiend with the 200 faces", but a quick dictionary search simply shows "mysterious person" as a possible way to interpret 怪人. (The official German volume has it as "devil"... to add drama, I guess?)

In the context of the chapter, of course, it referred to a note scribbled by the teacher Ms. Kobayashi, who pretended to have disappeared to give the kids some puzzle to solve and help the new students fit in.
Could it also be a subtle clue by Aoyama?

If the boss is Maria In disguise, then s/he is (yet another) character adept at changing their identity, in which case the description "mysterious person with 200 faces" would fit.

Other things:
-Maria lets out an Osakan accent by accident, and Ai remarks how a person will never lose an accent, only "take them off like jewelry" (German translation), and that she shouldn't be ashamed.
-Genta didn't even notice Maria until she got paired up with their group, even though she had been in the class for some time - showing that she doesn't stand out and can go by unnoticed (maybe reaching, since Ayumi did know who she was,
and Genta is generally a buffoon.

Good theory. What I like most is that it would make sense to have the final boss be a kid like Conan. And with Maria, no one would suspect it.


Great observations, especially withthe 200 face mysterious person. That would be very clever foreshadowing by Gosho.

I've found some interesting symbolism to connect Maria to the archvillains in both Edogawa's and Conan's works. All this might be a coincidence but I think it's worth a look.
Spoiler:
1. Her Japanese name 東尾 マリア uses katakana. Normally this isn't that unusual since Maria is used as a Japanese name, but almost every recurring character in the series has a Kanji given name. The three main exceptions are Okino Yoko, Yamamura Misao and most importantly Edogawa Conan, which we know is a fake name. Think about it: if Maria is actually the boss, then the name Maria must be a fake name. Conan's fake name is a reference to Arthur Conan Doyle, so what about Maria? I can't find any famous Maria's with ties to crime fiction, but what about this idea: Could "Maria" be a reference to Moriarty? It's not exact of course, but a lot of Gosho's name references (Sera Masumi being a reference to Sayla Mass, etc) are also not exact.

For reference:
Moriarty's katakana is モリアーティ
Maria's katakana is マリア.

Notice the リア being in common? The names are very similar.

I think Maria is a plausible way for Gosho to pick a feminine reference to Moriarty without being blatantly obvious?

2. I'm going to take your point of the fiend of 200 disguises even further. The title references this guy specifically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fiend ... enty_Faces
It's definitely very interesting that Maria's first appearance is in a chapter referencing the most famous antagonist in Edogawa Ranpo's novels. Coupled with the potential Moriarty reference and there's definitely a clear way to link Maria to the most famous antagonist of both of Edogawa and Conan's (the two namesake of Edogawa Conan). At this point, we need to decipher her last name 東尾. Is this a reference to something as well?


Other random thoughts:
Spoiler:
3. I have to say it. She really, really looks like a female version of Conan. I mean her hair is different, but she has the same glasses + face. Like if both Maria and Conan shave their heads, they'd look identical.

4. If we really believe that Renya Karasuma is the true boss, I think it's actually very Gosho-ian that his disguise will be someone like Maria. In Vermouth's arc, remember that Gosho heavily teased us another American woman (Jodie) that looks a lot like Vermouth but then revealed that her disguise is a Japanese man, which is pretty much the complete opposite of her real appearance. Likewise, the complete opposite of Renya Karasuma's appearance (that's being portrayed as this really old dude) is a weak, little girl, which makes Maria a very shocking but plausible disguise.


I don't even know anymore. I can't tell if this is one of those Lincoln/Kennedy things where we're just finding patterns out of nothing or not.

Some remaining questions that I find significant. Feel free to discuss them!

Spoiler:
5. What's with the Kansai connection? We know she's from Kansai and there has to be some significance to that. I think right now, we need to see if the BO or Renya has any Kansai connection that can support this theory, so I don't think we know enough. The closest I got is that Edogawa Ranpo is from Kansai, so maybe it's a reference to that? Either way, definitely keep an eye out for potential BO Kansai connections.

6. What is 東尾 a reference to? If Maria is a reference to Moriarty, then what is her last name a reference too? We need to go through detective novel villains, especially Japanese ones, which I don't know if anyone here is well versed in.

7. Why does Haibara's test fail on her?

8. Who are her grandparents? Why does her grandpa look so freaking much like James Black? If we accept that Maria's the Boss, then whoever appeared in those pictures with her are of critical interest.

9. If she's actually the BO boss, what is her objective in 1006-1008? I think this is the theory's biggest weak point since she way too innocent there. Is this some kind of test for Conan because of the 1005 Shinichi appearance? She did he specifically invited Conan who didn't end up going. But if she's actually the boss then there has to be a very compelling reason why spent all that time recreating home videos and hiring 2 old people to pose as her grandparents.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby Spimer » December 14th, 2017, 3:06 am

@thriceplus:

Spoiler:
東尾 = Higashio = East Tail

Maria is not originally a Japanese name, it's Italian / Spanish hence why it's written in Katakana.

Also, in my opinion, the Maria = Boss theory is very weak and contrived and seems no more than an attempt to grab at straws: her grandfather design is typical Gosho design recycling combining James Black and the Luna Memoria case's deceased husband. So it's not relevant.

In my opinion, Karasuma was the original Boss of the BO but nowadays it's someone else and I think it must be an adult man / woman. As for who it is, I have no idea.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby saorin » December 14th, 2017, 3:39 am

Spoiler:
Good Research on the Maria front, kudos for the effort!
The biggest counter-Argument for me is: She has grandparents and an ENTIRE ROOM of home Videos with them. This could only be reconciled with the theory if a) those Videos/Grandparents don't really exist and are a bluff (why go to the lengths?) or b) Maria got Switched out and replaced by Anokata at some point which...opens up another can of Worms, I guess.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby thriceplus » December 14th, 2017, 4:12 am

Spimer wrote:@thriceplus:

Spoiler:
東尾 = Higashio = East Tail

Maria is not originally a Japanese name, it's Italian / Spanish hence why it's written in Katakana.

Also, in my opinion, the Maria = Boss theory is very weak and contrived and seems no more than an attempt to grab at straws: her grandfather design is typical Gosho design recycling combining James Black and the Luna Memoria case's deceased husband. So it's not relevant.

In my opinion, Karasuma was the original Boss of the BO but nowadays it's someone else and I think it must be an adult man / woman. As for who it is, I have no idea.


Spoiler:
Like I already said, the Maria= Boss theory is pretty far-fetched with obvious glaring issues (Haibara's test for example, also what's the point of even hiring two old people to pose as her grandparents) but I think the point of developing the theory is more for fun and about trying to breathe new life into a decade-old topic that's been discussed and dissected to death.

Also, like Triangular Maze said, there's a certain elegance about the BO boss being a shrunken kid (and being Conan's equal) rather than being just another generic adult.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby thriceplus » December 14th, 2017, 4:30 am

saorin wrote:
Spoiler:
Good Research on the Maria front, kudos for the effort!
The biggest counter-Argument for me is: She has grandparents and an ENTIRE ROOM of home Videos with them. This could only be reconciled with the theory if a) those Videos/Grandparents don't really exist and are a bluff (why go to the lengths?) or b) Maria got Switched out and replaced by Anokata at some point which...opens up another can of Worms, I guess.


Spoiler:
Yeah, that's definitely the weak point, so I was hoping someone else could come up with a good solution to solve this! Maybe its Vermouth in disguise and she likes cosplaying as an old man on the weekends?

But yeah, I'm definitely leaning towards the Maria getting switched out theory. It has its share of issues of course, but it's not unprecedented. In the Vermouth arc, Araide-sensei for example got switched. Of course, this begs the question of when Maria got switched, etc.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby dccd » December 14th, 2017, 11:12 am

Spoiler:
WHY?
Why does Maria have to has grandparents and parents?
I was already on the Maria-train choo-chooing all the way and enjoying the ride.
But well, Maria still has got parents, right?
Since Kobayashi called them in the first chapter of the case afaik.

So unless we get some backgroundinfo about her being adopted by her current parents while
being raised by a bunch of ravens before, I think this is it unfortunatelly.

Anyways, there would be even more hints to her being Karasuma:
- Her name "Maria" resembles another female childs name in the series which in fact is an adult: Mary!
- After 1008 chapters she finally has her own case - coincidentally the same in which Carasuma is revealed.
- 1006-1008 is an analogy to the series/hunt for Karasuma and the estimated ending of the series:
Karasuma disappears - Maria disappears
Others search for him(FBI,CIA) - Same here (detective boys)
-Conan solves the last riddle and reveals his/hers location-

(thats why it was necessary to let Conan - not Ai - solve the last riddle)

But well... she has parents.
Damn it!


Btw, why are we writing here in spoilers since I think this isnt a spoiler-thread?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby thriceplus » December 14th, 2017, 11:16 am

dccd wrote:
Spoiler:
WHY?
Why does Maria have to has grandparents and parents?
I was already on the Maria-train choo-chooing all the way and enjoying the ride.
But well, Maria still has got parents, right?
Since Kobayashi called them in the first chapter of the case afaik.

So unless we get some backgroundinfo about her being adopted by her current parents while
being raised by a bunch of ravens before, I think this is it unfortunatelly.

Anyways, there would be even more hints to her being Karasuma:
- Her name "Maria" resembles another female childs name in the series which in fact is an adult: Mary!
- After 1008 chapters she finally has her own case - coincidentally the same in which Carasuma is revealed.
- 1006-1008 is an analogy to the series/hunt for Karasuma and the estimated ending of the series:
Karasuma disappears - Maria disappears
Others search for him(FBI,CIA) - Same here (detective boys)
-Conan solves the last riddle and reveals his/hers location-

(thats why it was necessary to let Conan - not Ai - solve the last riddle)

But well... she has parents.
Damn it!


Btw, why are we writing here in spoilers since I think this isnt a spoiler-thread?


Hmm maybe Vermouths acting as her mom or something. I can imagine vermouth going to parent teacher conferences. She'd be a good mom.

But seriously can't she just act as her own parents? It's not like kobayashi has actually met them. I think arranging a fake parent to throw off suspicion is pretty easy for the boss of the BO
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby saorin » December 14th, 2017, 12:02 pm

thriceplus wrote:
saorin wrote:
Spoiler:
Good Research on the Maria front, kudos for the effort!
The biggest counter-Argument for me is: She has grandparents and an ENTIRE ROOM of home Videos with them. This could only be reconciled with the theory if a) those Videos/Grandparents don't really exist and are a bluff (why go to the lengths?) or b) Maria got Switched out and replaced by Anokata at some point which...opens up another can of Worms, I guess.


Spoiler:
Yeah, that's definitely the weak point, so I was hoping someone else could come up with a good solution to solve this! Maybe its Vermouth in disguise and she likes cosplaying as an old man on the weekends?

But yeah, I'm definitely leaning towards the Maria getting switched out theory. It has its share of issues of course, but it's not unprecedented. In the Vermouth arc, Araide-sensei for example got switched. Of course, this begs the question of when Maria got switched, etc.


I think there are Major differences between switching out a kid at elementary School age and an adult. First Point is that "Maria" can't move very freely, seeing as she's limited by her age but also by having parents and grandparents looking after her, having to attend School etc. How would Anokata be supposed to "do Business"? It was different with Araide, he is (or should I say "was" as he never showed up again xD) an adult and was thus not really restricted by other People. As an adult, You are pretty "unbound" in General, if only because you're Independent, manage your own time schedule, have alone time easily etc. If you make up a new Person, okay, then you wouldn't have real parents bothering you. But with switching, you would have exactly this Problem. It would be super inconvenient.
Also, if you assume that APTX also halts aging (looking at Vermouth; we cannot deduce anything from Conan or Ai because only half a year has passed in-universe), "Maria" must have been 7 for quite a while, which would... probably get suspicious at one Point. ;D Or Anokata goes around switching personalities every few years, which doesn't Sound legit either. If we stick with Maria=Anokata, we would probably Need to accept the "halts aging" theory, as the Boss probably couldn't be leader of a crime syndicate as a toddler. ;D

I'm not arguing because I want People to discard this theory, I think it has a certain charm to it, that's why I'm commenting on it in the first place. :) Just playing devil's advocate in the first place. The thoughts above are also true for any theory involving Anokata switching out an existing child. It's different with a made-up persona, as I said, but I can't see that applying to Maria because of all the Background info she got which would be absolutely pointless to deliberately bring up and fake if she's Anokata.
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But be the serpent under it.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby thriceplus » December 14th, 2017, 3:38 pm

saorin wrote:Also, if you assume that APTX also halts aging (looking at Vermouth; we cannot deduce anything from Conan or Ai because only half a year has passed in-universe), "Maria" must have been 7 for quite a while, which would... probably get suspicious at one Point. ;D Or Anokata goes around switching personalities every few years, which doesn't Sound legit either. If we stick with Maria=Anokata, we would probably Need to accept the "halts aging" theory, as the Boss probably couldn't be leader of a crime syndicate as a toddler. ;D


Well, the idea of the switching out theory is that the boss has only been "Maria" for a short time and plans on returning to his/her real body after s/he finishes spying on Conan. Remember she's only been "Maria" for a few months so I don't think it's that suspicious. It's basically just like Vermouth situation where she has a real body, only temporarily became Araide for a short period for spying purposes and went back to being Vermouth after her mission is complete. It has nothing to do with switching personalities every few years.

saorin wrote:I think there are Major differences between switching out a kid at elementary School age and an adult. First Point is that "Maria" can't move very freely, seeing as she's limited by her age but also by having parents and grandparents looking after her, having to attend School etc. How would Anokata be supposed to "do Business"? It was different with Araide, he is (or should I say "was" as he never showed up again xD) an adult and was thus not really restricted by other People. As an adult, You are pretty "unbound" in General, if only because you're Independent, manage your own time schedule, have alone time easily etc. If you make up a new Person, okay, then you wouldn't have real parents bothering you. But with switching, you would have exactly this Problem. It would be super inconvenient.


Yeah, you bring up a good point: why would the boss choose to be a kid in the first place? There's very little the boss gains from purposely being in a kid's body besides making it a cool plot point. I honestly don't know. Maybe s/he thinks that being a kid's body reduces suspicion since literally nobody would suspect a 7 year old? Or Gosho could just pull another Haibara on us and make it an accident. I think introducing Haibara and later Mary shows that Gosho is at least fond of introducing shrunken people into the Conan universe so I don't think it's far fetched to think that Gosho will shrink the boss as well.

saorin wrote:I'm not arguing because I want People to discard this theory, I think it has a certain charm to it, that's why I'm commenting on it in the first place. :) Just playing devil's advocate in the first place. The thoughts above are also true for any theory involving Anokata switching out an existing child. It's different with a made-up persona, as I said, but I can't see that applying to Maria because of all the Background info she got which would be absolutely pointless to deliberately bring up and fake if she's Anokata.


No, it's good to discuss. Like I said many times, I find the theory far-fetched as well, but maybe worth discussing since it at least brings something new to discuss instead of talking about things that have been said decades ago. Most of stuff said on Karasuma or the mermaid episode guestbook or other suspects I've already read in like 2003.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby Swagnarok » December 14th, 2017, 3:51 pm

Maria being the Boss would mean the BO is led by a person who...couldn't figure out how to open a stuck door.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby saorin » December 15th, 2017, 4:49 am

thriceplus wrote:Well, the idea of the switching out theory is that the boss has only been "Maria" for a short time and plans on returning to his/her real body after s/he finishes spying on Conan. Remember she's only been "Maria" for a few months so I don't think it's that suspicious. It's basically just like Vermouth situation where she has a real body, only temporarily became Araide for a short period for spying purposes and went back to being Vermouth after her mission is complete. It has nothing to do with switching personalities every few years.


Why only "a few months/short time" Though... I Think we have absolutely nothing that Would somehow Indicate recent changes With the Boss. I'd rather believe that either he's been a kid for Years already and doesn't age or he was turned into a kid years ago and has aged since then, if you go along the "anokata= a child"-theory route.
Also, i guess the Boss actually going out, as cautious as he is supposed to be, to spy on conan doesn't sit right With me. I find it more plausible he is only present from a safe Distance, if at all.
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But be the serpent under it.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Postby ferny1987 » December 15th, 2017, 2:10 pm

Swagnarok wrote:Maria being the Boss would mean the BO is led by a person who...couldn't figure out how to open a stuck door.


If Maria is the BO boss, then her granparents were fake, and the treasure hunt her grandmother left her was fake, and the videos she was watching on the TV were fake too... so the fact that she was not able to get out of the room and she thought that she had to watch every video, was obviously a lie. She just requested the Detective boys help and waited for them on that room to test them.

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