Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.

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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » January 27th, 2010, 9:39 pm

dcfan01 wrote:I thought that the way Haibara and Agasa got out from the bank is really weird.
There must be a reason that explains why Gosho had to take haibara out of the bank...

No need for spoiler boxes here since this is the manga discussion section. I would like to note that if you don't read the manga, you will probably encounter naked spoilers here. If that thought mortifies you, there is an anime only discussion of the episode on the general discussion board which is supposed to be manga spoiler free.

Gosho did deliberately avoid having Haibara meet scar Akai. I think it is because scar Akai is Bourbon and he would have recognized her right away and she would have felt his aura, and Gosho doesn't want to sling excrement into rapidly rotating air circulators quite yet.

dcfan01 wrote:And then i remembered that Akai and Haibara haven't ever met face to face (at least after akemi's murder).
And there was a chapter where Akai said that it was too early for her to meet him.

The whole Akai meets Ai subplot is still unresolved and will probably occur around/just after the battle climax of this arc in my opinion.

dcfan01 wrote:So i think that scar akai is akai ... As for okiya, i don't think he is someone in disguise; just think about the way he met conan... it was totally random.

Disclaimer: I'm the resident self-proclaimed Okiya = Akai fanatic. I'm not sure anyone would challenge me for this title.  :D

Click for a comprehensive set of reasons Okiya Subaru is Akai Shuuichi which has manga spoilers.
Click for the same thing as above, but for people who watch the anime and do not want manga spoilers.



dcfan01 wrote:and there is something in akai that only haibara knows, or at least, there is something in the meeting of those two that will lead to some important BO information.

I think their reunion will probably have more emotional content than new info about the B.O. Shiho Miyano knows Akai by the alias of Moroboshi Dai from when he infiltrated the organization. Shiho would almost certainly know him because he was her sister's boyfriend. Akai was one of the reasons Akemi was killed, so I'm sure Akai thinks Shiho will resent him because of it and this is probably the reason Akai isn't ready to face Shiho. One of the mysteries that isn't resolved yet is what was the content of the PS of the last text message Akemi sent to Akai before she did the bank heist. There is a thread about this in the manga discussion section. I think it was something along the lines of look after Shiho, but there are other theories.
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Abs. » January 27th, 2010, 11:23 pm

"P.S.  Shiho wants to kill you.  You'd better run.  Even I can't protect you from her."
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby GinRei » January 27th, 2010, 11:41 pm

dcfan01 wrote:So i think that scar akai is akai and there is something in akai that only haibara knows, or at least, there is something in the meeting of those two that will lead to some important BO information.


Are you implying that Genta is working with the BO or FBI, and as such he doesn't want the two to meet?
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby kyuuketsuki » January 28th, 2010, 12:07 am

I don't think Akai = Okiya... My reason is that if memory serves me, Akai was never regarded as a fantastic detective, unlike Okiya. He was depicted to be a VERY competent [undercover] agent with EXCELLENT senses [as in he has strong intuition, but that shouldn't be confused for great deductive capacity].

Are there reasons why they could be the same person? Of course there can be, but as it stands Okiya = Bourbon seems a far more likely theory.

I'm not going to delve into this any further
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » January 28th, 2010, 1:21 am

kyuuketsuki wrote:I don't think Akai = Okiya... My reason is that if memory serves me, Akai was never regarded as a fantastic detective, unlike Okiya. He was depicted to be a VERY competent [undercover] agent with EXCELLENT senses [as in he has strong intuition, but that shouldn't be confused for great deductive capacity].

Are there reasons why they could be the same person? Of course there can be, but as it stands Okiya = Bourbon seems a far more likely theory.

I'm not going to delve into this any further

Taking a potshot and running are we? :P (I'm kidding.) I addressed Akai's intelligence in that list of reasons that Okiya is Akai. Akai is a pretty swift detective although perhaps not as good as Conan.
1) Akai managed to find James Black in the "P and A" case (325-326) although we don't know how he did it.
2) In "The Black Organization Versus FBI" arc (500-504), he figured out Mouri Kogoro would be a target well in advance after hearing about the listening device and took appropriate action. He also had the sense to wait for the opportunity to destroy the evidence that the Org could trace to Conan and thus make it seem like the FBI had set up the bug and draw suspicion from Kogoro.
3) The Organization certainly fears him and Vermouth and the Boss consider him a silver bullet. I doubt he would get that designation if he wasn't nearly as good as Conan.

It's pretty clear from Red vs. Black that he can plan in the same league as Conan and he can figure stuff out at the same rate.

4) Using Conan's video, he knew Kusuda Rikumichi was the spy in the hospital, and figured it out right after watching the video which shows he is a good detective in the sense of crime solving.
5) He noticed Hidemi was faking her coma while she was being kept in the hospital which shows he can notice small details.
6) He helped exclude plans to move Hidemi that would potentially result in a gunfight or the hospital staff being targeted by the Syndicate. He anticipated what the other agents would choose as the plan just by looking at the three vans, and, using it as a scaffold, came up with a working plan on how to return Hidemi to the Organization while tricking the rest of the FBI and thus the Org. He figured it out well in advance in order to have the time for Agent Camel to fly overseas to drive the van. This we know he must have deduced without Conan's help since Conan didn't know about Camel.  
7) He's good at gathering information and identified Ethan Hondou as a CIA agent. Jodie trusts what he digs up.
8 ) He figured out Ethan Hondou's trick to save Hidemi with only basic information about what transpired in the warehouse.

As for lots of other reasons why Akai and Okiya are the same person, and also why the Okiya is Bourbon theory has holes like swiss cheese, see that link in my sig.

Abs. wrote:"P.S.  Shiho wants to kill you.  You'd better run.  Even I can't protect you from her."
That's a frightening, frightening prospect. Maybe Akai decided not to meet with Shiho after noticing she suddenly became an elementary school student; Akai didn't want to find himself learning the multiplication tables all over again. Abs., you owe me a new keyboard after I spit water all over it cracking up imagining a 7 year old Akai getting tossed around by Kogoro, glomped by Jodie, and forced to say things childishly.
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Abs. » January 28th, 2010, 2:32 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Abs., you owe me a new keyboard after I spit water all over it cracking up imagining a 7 year old Akai getting tossed around by Kogoro, glomped by Jodie, and forced to say things childishly.


ROFLMFAO!  I will gladly, glady oblige - pick one out!
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Misztina » January 28th, 2010, 3:40 pm

Um... did I say something stupid, or repeated others or my writing was full of typos so it was ignored? *lacks of confindence*
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Abs. » January 28th, 2010, 5:55 pm

Misztina wrote:Um... did I say something stupid, or repeated others or my writing was full of typos so it was ignored? *lacks of confindence*


It's okay.  Sometimes I feel that way about my translations.
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby mitsuhiko2 » January 28th, 2010, 7:27 pm

dcfan01 wrote:I've just watched ep. 563 and something called my attention:
Spoiler:
I thought that the way Haibara and Agasa got out from the bank is really weird.
There must be a reason that explains why Gosho had to take haibara out of the bank...

And then i remembered that Akai and Haibara haven't ever met face to face (at least after akemi's murder).
And there was a chapter where akai said that it was too early for her to meet him.
So i think that scar akai is akai and there is something in akai that only haibara knows, or at least, there is something in the meeting of those two that will lead to some important BO information.

As for okiya, i don't think he is someone in disguise; just think about the way he met conan... it was totally random.


If Okiya is in a disguise, it must be a pretty good one, since it held up impeccably to a kick in the face from Ran.

Furthermore, most disguises probably would need to be replaced at least once a day... and probably shouldn't be slept in. But hey, to each his own, I suppose...
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » January 28th, 2010, 7:36 pm

Misztina wrote:Um... did I say something stupid, or repeated others or my writing was full of typos so it was ignored? *lacks of confindence*

In my case, I forgot about replying to you after replying to kyuu. Sorry about ignoring you. It wasn't intentional.

Misztina wrote:Why do you think that the "bastard, who irritates" Gin is Bourbon and not someone else?

Theory-time:
Let's assume that Scar Akai is not a member of BO, just someone who wants to lure out the BO. Since ScarAkai knew that he will be followed by the BO he warned Jodie in the department store to run away, because that place is dangerous. Note, that Okiya found out about Gin's and Kir presence much later.

Why would Akai stalk after and appear in front of Jodie and Camel then? He could accomplish the same thing without putting anyone in potential danger by wandering around randomly by himself.
As for the message, I'm not sure who left it. It could be scar Akai trying to convince Jodie he is the real Akai. It could also be Okiya who noticed that Jodie was being stalked and is in danger in public places like this. Akai may have also noticed the B.O. agent who wound up reporting scar Akai was in the store and contacted her for this reason as well. I suspect the message leaver was Okiya - the real Akai - but I am not convinced it was him.

Misztina wrote:Of course this can only work if we assume that Oiya is Akai & Bourbon at the same time, which is likely, but cannot be 100% confirmed.

I don't think Okiya can be Akai and Bourbon at the same time because I have a hard time believing the org would somehow be fooled by Akai again after his face has been burned into the minds of all the senior agents. Gin seems to have met Bourbon based on his conversation with Vodka (he knows about Bourbon's smirking), and Gin seems to not be taken is by disguises very often.
You could advance the theory that Akai somehow replaced Bourbon, but then you have to answer several questions. #1 When did Akai replace Bourbon? During the events of red vs. black? Before when he had no plans to fake his death yet? After? #2 How did he do it? #3 Who are Okiya and scar Akai? They both appeared at the same time during the 13 red shirts case and there is a strong case to be made for them both having some form of relation to the org. Additionally other people who could have disguised as one of them like Vermouth or Kir were also seen at the same time so neither man could be one of the ladies. #4 Furthermore since Gosho likes his mysteries to be solvable, there should be evidence that this occurred. What evidence points towards his possibility?

For me the answer is simple; Okiya is Akai and scar Akai is Bourbon with no disguise chains or third parties involved. I think scar Akai is Bourbon as S.A.'s actions are consistent with what we know about Bourbon's personality and his goals. I'm sure I don't need to rehash why I think Okiya is Akai at this point.

Misztina wrote:And in the end Scar Akai was "saved" by a "mysterious person", who was in that building at that time.
The B.O don't know scar Akai was "saved" by anyone. The only thing they know is that some of the crowd decided to rush back into the building for an unknown reason. It could have been a coincidental miscommunication.
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » January 29th, 2010, 3:07 am

Conan324 wrote:"And in the end Scar Akai was "saved" by a "mysterious person", who was in that building at that time.
The B.O don't know scar Akai was "saved" by anyone. The only thing they know is that some of the crowd decided to rush back into the building for an unknown reason. It could have been a coincidental miscommunication.
"
i always thought that the way he escaped was by secretly removing his mask if he was bourbon

That would have worked, but Misztina was referring to Conan lying about a 10000 yen coupon giveaway to cause the crowd to surge and shift about. He assumed the B.O. knew that someone had done that on purpose to protect scar Akai. The B.O., excluding scar Akai at least, don't know what caused the suddenly shifting crowd. Sure they thought it was strange, but they don't know it was a diversion to keep scar Akai from being shot. Also Conan didn't know who the target of the B.O. was, he created the situation with the hopes that the target would be saved regardless of who they were.
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Abs. » January 29th, 2010, 3:19 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Conan324 wrote:"And in the end Scar Akai was "saved" by a "mysterious person", who was in that building at that time.
The B.O don't know scar Akai was "saved" by anyone. The only thing they know is that some of the crowd decided to rush back into the building for an unknown reason. It could have been a coincidental miscommunication.
"
i always thought that the way he escaped was by secretly removing his mask if he was bourbon

That would have worked, but Misztina was referring to Conan lying about a 10000 yen coupon giveaway to cause the crowd to surge and shift about. He assumed the B.O. knew that someone had done that on purpose to protect scar Akai. The B.O., excluding scar Akai at least, don't know what caused the suddenly shifting crowd. Sure they thought it was strange, but they don't know it was a diversion to keep scar Akai from being shot. Also Conan didn't know who the target of the B.O. was, he created the situation with the hopes that the target would be saved regardless of who they were.


324 brings up a good point though.  Conan didn't pursue the Scarry one afterwards.  Why?
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Misztina » January 29th, 2010, 5:04 am

Abs. wrote:It's okay.  Sometimes I feel that way about my translations.


*pats on shoulder* Sorry, I just really feel jinxed sometimes, when I reply somewhere the topic goes either down or I'm ignored. ^^""

About why Conan didn't follow Scar Akai after the incident:
Maybe it was due to Okiya's interference, he said that he already checked the "guy" who wasn't the one he looked for. Assuming that Okiya and Conan are in the same team, it was an enough explanation at least for then.

@Chekhov: I know it was not intentional.  ;)

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Why would Akai stalk after and appear in front of Jodie and Camel then? He could accomplish the same thing without putting anyone in potential danger by wandering around randomly by himself.
As for the message, I'm not sure who left it. It could be scar Akai trying to convince Jodie he is the real Akai. It could also be Okiya who noticed the bomber was up to some shenanigans, but wasn't capable of stopping it. Akai may have also noticed the B.O. agent who wound up reporting scar Akai was in the store and contacted her for this reason as well. I suspect the message leaver was Okiya - the real Akai - but I am not convinced it was him.


It is a tricky question, no, a tricky situation, since we know that Scar Akai saved Conan's life during the bankrobery case, which would mean he is good, but... I have too many doubts on my mind. Scar Akai could be a bad guy, anyways since he sent Kogoro the solution of the case, this means he didn't know that Conan would do that with the sleeping kogoro act ( I guess, since everyone who knows Conan's ability wouldn't believe he is a slowpoke when it comes to solving a  case). But this means when Conan was saved during the bank robbery he was saved by other reasons. But for what? Because he seems to be an important character in this "game"?
I highly doubt that Okiya, or Scar Akai noticed the bombing case beforehand, rather one of them knew that the BO will or might be there.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:I don't think Okiya can be Akai and Bourbon at the same time because I have a hard time believing the org would somehow be fooled by Akai again after his face has been burned into the minds of all the senior agents.  Furthermore since Gosho likes his mysteries to be solvable, there should be evidence that this occurred. What evidence points towards his possibility?
For me the answer is simple; Okiya is Akai and scar Akai is Bourbon with no disguise chains or third parties involved. I think scar Akai is Bourbon as S.A.'s actions are consistent with what we know about Bourbon's personality and his goals. I'm sure I don't need to rehash why I think Okiya is Akai at this point.


Yeah, yeah, the Okiya=Akai is clear to me, I just find it too simple that Scar Akai is Bourbon. ^^" I could be reading too much in to the things. But... yeah... who else could be Scar Akai then Bourbon?

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:The B.O don't know scar Akai was "saved" by anyone. The only thing they know is that some of the crowd decided to rush back into the building for an unknown reason. It could have been a coincidental miscommunication.


I just think this because when Gin was talking about the irritating person, he mentioned "Sherlock, who you wish to exist only in the novels" which was a reference back to their earlier talk about how Kir could have fooled Gin during the Akai assasination-plan. That's why I thought it was perhaps Akai, or an unknown third party(aka Conan) Gin was referring to.
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Abs. » January 29th, 2010, 5:20 am

Perhaps Akai had a twin.

His twin was "Moroboshi Dai"

Dai disappeared mysteriously due to a incident involving burning fire/was in coma

Akai takes the place of Dai; fools everyone, fakes death

BOURBON finds Dai in hospital, decides to disguise as him and walk around

Okiya = Akai knows that BOURBON is not Dai because he knows his own twin

???




Ok I know that didn't make much sense at all, but I'm TRYING to tie in the Char Aznable thing here!
Last edited by Abs. on January 29th, 2010, 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

Postby Kor » January 29th, 2010, 5:29 am

The thing about twins is that not only they look alike, but they sound alike as well (given their both the same gender of course). I have a twin brother and our voices sound almost the same.
So if scar Akai is Bourbon AND Akai's twin, he probably would have talked.
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