Chekhov's theories about the plot

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
S.Vineyard
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby S.Vineyard » July 4th, 2015, 5:54 pm

The main problem with the Bourbon Arc was imo. that people found out too quickly that Okiya was Akai. That made it less interesting.

Also, it's 5 years since the "London confession" and absolutly NOTHING happened in terms of Shin/Ran, expect of flashback, which imo. also angered a lot of (at least western) fans.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » July 6th, 2015, 12:17 am

Kudo Shinchi wrote:I would also just like to point out that DCTP is hardly an accurate representative sample of the general DC fandom, at least the English-speaking one. The general attitude here towards DC has been overwhelmingly negative for several years now, but that bitterness is not a good reflection of the broader fandom. I wouldn't argue that the Bourbon arc has been as well received as, say, the Vermouth arc, but my survey of other forums besides this one shows that its not as negative as DCTP might lead you to believe. The Scarlet Showdown especially is well-liked by most people I have interacted with outside of this forum.

The point I'm trying to make here is not to use the DCTP forums as a source of the general fandom's opinion towards anything; in order to develop a more accurate picture, you need to venture beyond its bounds. It's one of the best DC forums out there, to be sure, but it is not alone in its existence.


Thanks for pointing this out—criticism is good, but without an effort to use it to effect change... its not exactly productive. The criticism of DC for the past seven years, or even eleven years, is criticism that I have no problem with... but it just doesn't make me cynical/bitter or in any way dampen my enjoyment of the series.

Nemomon wrote:A random spam post not worth a separate topic.

When Amuro was explaining how Akai survived the death he said that he probably been working together with the woman who shot him. Since Akai been proved to be alive, do You think that Amuro still remembers that he worked together with Kir, and so that Kir is either FBI or another spy?

Also, do You think Amuro received his codename long time ago? Or not long time ago? Before or after Scotch was killed? I am wondering about this, because Kir said that "a newly activated member called Bourbon has been dispatched". It looks like that Bourbon recently got his codename. Or that until now he didn't have any missions at all and was free to do anything he wanted. If he recently got his codename, it is quite strange that he knows that much about Vermouth (even though it seems he was close to the BO even as a child). I was wondering whether Amuro received his codename right after Scotch was killed as the one who revealed that Scotch was a spy...


Rei (Amuro) doesn't know who Kir is working for, specifically, but he does know that she's Shuichi's ally. They likely haven't met, since Kir would have told the FBI about Bourbon's identity, had she worked with him.

Rei seemed to get his codename shortly before Kir informed the FBI of that fact—he knows of Vermouth's secret that she's "the Boss's..." for reasons that have yet to be explained.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
wrd
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby wrd » August 21st, 2015, 10:53 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:Rei seemed to get his codename shortly before Kir informed the FBI of that fact—he knows of Vermouth's secret that she's "the Boss's..." for reasons that have yet to be explained.


I don't think so, especially if we rely on the content of this dialog:

Spoiler:
Image


Apparently Rei already has his codename by the time Sherry was still in the BO, maybe he got it even before Scotch death, we can presume this fome what Akemi has said about the Antipathy between Bourbon and Dai.

Edit:

Also there is this:

Spoiler:
Image

Image


We can assume that Akai knew Rei by his codename during their time in the BO,

Another thing...

This makes me wonder, by what name Rei was known in the BO before receiving his codename ? since Akai has said "these days it's Amuro Tooru - Kun...".
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » August 21st, 2015, 2:49 pm

wrd wrote:This makes me wonder, by what name Rei was known in the BO before receiving his codename ? since Akai has said "these days it's Amuro Tooru - Kun...".


I wonder about that, too. Elena knew his real name, but when did he get his first fake name?

wrd wrote:
Spoiler:
Image


Apparently Rei already has his codename by the time Sherry was still in the BO, maybe he got it even before Scotch death, we can presume this fome what Akemi has said about the Antipathy between Bourbon and Dai.

Edit:

Also there is this:

Spoiler:
Image

Image


We can assume that Akai knew Rei by his codename during their time in the BO,


Ah, that's right.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » August 30th, 2015, 4:17 am

Oh look, a low quality theory post about highly original ideas that nobody has definitely ever thought of and posted about before.

Overview of my standing on "recent" events:
Running with the theory that the unknown child is the Akai family mother, and that she is British and the sister of Elena Miyano, I bet the rich family friend who has been supporting Masumi Sera's hotel stays is James Black. James was originally from London before he moved to the Unites States. Also Elena, maybe Daddy Akai, and James Black have connections to the British MI6. Shuukichi is the middle bro.

----

There are pretty much two lines of thought on how Mrs. Mary Sera nee Akai nee Sera deaged into a middle-school body. One is Shiho's APTX 4869 was applied recently. The other is an older drug like Silver Bullet was used on her a longer time ago.
If her shrinking condition is older, then it would need more explanation because the rest of the BO minus Vermouth behaves like shrinking isn't currently possible. That old fart Pisco kept up with the Miyanos and acted like APTX4869's deaging affect was a new thing that Shiho developed recently when he saw it in action. On the other hand, we know Vermouth wasn't minted recently, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that Silver Bullet or the hypothetical drug that predated it was responsible. I think we definitely can assume that, whatever happened, Mary had a Little Lamb had an adult body when she conceived Masumi, giving an upper time bound of 16-17 years ago for her extreme weightloss.

All things considered, it's unlikely the rank and file BO executives like Gin know about shrinking. That leaves a few possibilities for how sudden negative mass happened.
One is that Miss Mary Mack was targeted for death and drugged like Conan and left alone to die. Canary Mary might have got it because she was the wife of Papa Akai, or because she is/was a spy for MI6, or because she was the sister of Elena Miyano.
The other possibility that comes to mind is she was involved in the "accident" the Miyanos knew were coming that vanished the both of them. Let's say Elena and Mary were involved with MI6 as many have speculated. Elena and Atsushi were ready to flounce from the Organization because they had a second kid, a breakthrough on their drug, and wanted a more colorful wardrobe. MI6 prepared a fake accident that accidentally became a real accident and Silver Bullet accidentally sprayed everywhere accidentally. Mary Sue got caught up in it and was cursed to retake sixth grade, permanently.

Despite these hypotheses, at this point, there is no firm evidence yet to differentiate between the two drugs and time frames or explain why a shrinking drug was involved in the first place. The only hint on when Mary Poppins might have been shrunk came at the end of the completely ridiculous pool case. (Seriously that case's trick was so forced.) Ran commented about remembering the unknown child from long ago around the time she met Sera. That would about 10-12 years in the past, a lower bound for HMS Queen Mary's age jettison. "That girl too, I feel like I previously [met]" (ref 905pg16) The problem is that you can validly argue Ran is conflating Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary with memories of Masumi since they look alike. (edit: or is remembering an adult Mary)

Rum is a likely suspect for some part in all of this because it is his arc, but there are no guarantees.

---

And lastly updates on stuff.

I am about half done with rereading Masumi's chapters trying to prove her Britishness, but I have found nothing of note that hasn't been said already: the Union Jack on her intro case cover, her saying Football instead of Soccer, her holding a fork and knife like a British person rather than an American in the Stabby Red Lady case, using very British teasets with snacks in hotels, and possibly vaguely dressing with British fashion trends, maybe. I wanted to do a big breakdown analysis, but the evidence is pretty thin because most of the time Masumi is a talking head with crossed arms or a schoolbag over her shoulder. Therefore I have done what I am the very best at, deferring out of laziness and letting others build the bandwagon so I can jump on it later.

I am still not doing a Rum theory yet. I have posted ideas and a few minor references at DCW, but that's all I plan on doing until the plot makes progress. There just isn't enough info. I looked into past characters before Gosho's cutoff and didn't see anyone striking. Half of me is also worried that Gosho's reference to introducing Rum before is a reference to this. So yeah.

Image

----

You all should totally help me with these wiki articles BTW.
Recurring Tropes in Detective Conan
Internal rules in Detective Conan
Oversights in Detective Conan
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on January 3rd, 2016, 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kor
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Kor » August 30th, 2015, 10:15 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Despite these hypotheses, at this point, there is no firm evidence yet to differentiate between the two drugs and time frames or explain why a shrinking drug was involved in the first place. The only hint on when Mary Poppins might have been shrunk came at the end of the completely ridiculous pool case. (Seriously that case's trick was so forced.) Ran commented about remembering the unknown child from long ago around the time she met Sera. That would about 10-12 years in the past, a lower bound for HMS Queen Mary's age jettison. "That girl too, I feel like I previously [met]" (ref 905pg16) The problem is that you can validly argue Ran is conflating Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary with memories of Masumi since they look alike.


Actually, if we go with the mother theory (and the notion Mary is mommy ala MG), I think the idea Ran (and maybe Shinichi) met her (as adult) in the potential flashback to come is pretty fair at this point.

We can sort of trust Ran's feelings of "I think I met this person somewhere", as she also did that with Okiya (her track record is somewhat better than Haibara at least).
Conan recognizing the name and dismissing the MG and Masumi options after thinking about it and then going to a vivid thought (supposedly, as we only have rough translations from the spoilers) sort of suggests there was a Mary he met or heard of, which could be Masumi's adult Mother, who he doesn't remember too well at this point.
In 778, Sera "asks" Ran for reaffirmation that her breasts will be big like her mother's, so this could suggest Ran met adult Mary (along with young Masumi) in the past and forgot.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » August 30th, 2015, 12:42 pm

Kor wrote:Actually, if we go with the mother theory (and the notion Mary is mommy ala MG), I think the idea Ran (and maybe Shinichi) met her (as adult) in the potential flashback to come is pretty fair at this point.
I lean towards a more recent drug point, something that happened well after Elena and Atsushi's accident. (Mary might have been involved in that but not shrunken at the time) I think shrinking was something that probably happened in the past few years, if only because Sera seems to remember her mother's assets quite clearly and was of an age that she felt self-conscious about her own. There is no compelling reason not to think that Mary was drugged after Conan was chronologically. Mary is still acting like there is a clear and present danger that requires staying out of sight and shuffling hotels constantly. All that movement gets old fast and would almost certainly have a detriment on Masumi's schooling. I assume the reason Mary hasn't contacted her son Shuukichi is because she doesn't want him involved - he might be completely under the Black Org's radar. At this point Okiya should start subletting the Kudo place.

(And thanks to all the different Akais and Shuukichi's nearly identical name, I have to call Shuuichi Okiya from now on. What kind of screwed up parent gives their children 7 letter-long names with only one letter-sound difference? Shuuichi and Shinichi were bad enough. Clearly Gosho has a love affair with Sh*ichi.)

Kor wrote:We can sort of trust Ran's feelings of "I think I met this person somewhere", as she also did that with Okiya (her track record is somewhat better than Haibara at least).
Ran is reliable. If she says it, it's true.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Kor » August 31st, 2015, 2:20 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Running with the theory that the unknown child is the Akai family mother, and that she is British and the sister of Elena Miyano,


How does that work genetically, though?

Sera has kanji in it. When Conan spots MG, he doesn't say anything about her not looking Japanese but comments she looks like Masumi.
On Elena's side, she was always described as a foreign woman and there was no given hint she was partly Japanese.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Uchiha Shadow » August 31st, 2015, 5:40 am

Kor wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Running with the theory that the unknown child is the Akai family mother, and that she is British and the sister of Elena Miyano,


How does that work genetically, though?

Sera has kanji in it. When Conan spots MG, he doesn't say anything about her not looking Japanese but comments she looks like Masumi.
On Elena's side, she was always described as a foreign woman and there was no given hint she was partly Japanese.

I don't know if this works or not, but if one of their parents was British, while the other one is Japanese, couldn't Elena look like the British parent while Mary looks like the Japanese one? I don't know since I'm not so well-knowing in Biology.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby kkuuddoo » August 31st, 2015, 5:52 pm

I agree with you, it could be but its sometimes likely
look at Shiho and Akemi
Akemi looks totally Japanese, however Shiho on the other hand looks like her British mother with some asian feature
I Remember that Conan once said that nothing about Haibara is Japanese in the Fake friendship episode
Another would be when Haibara stated that she was bullied because she has asian features though she doesn't really look asian or something is the Agasa love story episode, where she also said that her mother was British to the DB
GIN X SHIHO <3<3<3
VERMOUTH IS SEXY AS HELL !!

Elena Miyano and Atsushi ..... APTX 4869 & Silver Bullet
zeoh
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby zeoh » August 31st, 2015, 7:34 pm

That is a pretty good point. Siblings of main/supporting characters in this series tend to have clearly similar features to the point where you can see the resemblance easily. Perhaps the Akemi/Shiho disconnect was meant to be a hint of sorts from the very beginning? Personally, I think Akemi and Shiho are the least sibling-like of most of the brothers and sisters that have been in the series so far and I wouldn't have been able to tell if they were placed in front of me without names/background info. (but when it comes to siblings in a case, they often don't look anything like each other lol)

I'm curious just how far ahead Gosho had planned the series out when he debuted certain key characters back when the series was still young.

Thinking about it more, if the Miyanos are related to the Akais... -glares at Shuuichi x Akemi-
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby jimmy_kud0_tv2 » August 31st, 2015, 9:14 pm

zeoh wrote:I'm curious just how far ahead Gosho had planned the series out when he debuted certain key characters back when the series was still young.


he has claimed before that he only thought the series would last a few months.
Akemi and the outline for Shiho appear before chapter 20.
however, even at this point we still barely know anything to in depth about
Akemi and the parents. Haibara barely tells us much about her personal past
except a few things about her time in America, and things she observed while in the BO,
but not really much about what she specifically was doing.
I hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Vi-Greythorn » November 24th, 2015, 2:08 am

I truly believe that shiho and Akemi are not of the same mother, any mother that Akemi Japanese nationality, either Shiho Her mother is Elena, that is to say Atsutshi was, for example, had married another woman before Elena, and perhaps she had died after the birth of Akemi

He's just expected of me and in the end may be true or makes a mistake
" memories of someone who's passed away remain beautiful forever and a person's heart will linger , over they , they say "
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » December 25th, 2015, 4:29 pm

Akai-Miyano-Sera-Mouri and Kudo-Kuroba Family Relations Theory Chart

Mouri to Akai connection is supported by the frequent comparisons or Ran to Akemi.
https://imgur.com/a/TEcJ6

Spoiler: Ran and Akemi
Image
Image
Image

It also explains the difference in upbringing between Shiho and Akemi. Gosho implied in interviews that Elena, rather than Atsushi, may have been the one doing the heavy lifting as far as the drug inventing went, so it would her biological child that would receive attention.

Let's Talk with Aoyama-sensei Day 2015
"Q: "Who's the smartest of them? Sister outside the domain, Jodie, Miyano Elena, Vermouth" --> Miyano Elena
A: "Miyano Elena is the smartest. Since she's creating an incredible drug.""

This is all Kor's fault.



http://www.mediafire.com/view/j05oy7m2e ... s_list.xls

This is a fork of a former German project to list all the hundreds of suspect, victim, culprit, and bystander names that appeared before Gosho's full name interview in the Kir arc. I can't guarantee it is complete (in fact I am sure it missing lots of stuff), but I went through and started listing off disqualifying criteria to start eliminating boss suspects. If you want to take a crack at finishing it or finding the names in the manga that are not on the sheet, please be my guest.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » December 27th, 2015, 1:41 am

This is not really theory related, but I counted up the number of murders over the 272 cases that comprise DC, and came up with 199.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)

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