Chekhov's theories about the plot

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Re: Chekhov's V2 APTX 4869 Theories

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » May 20th, 2017, 7:05 pm

bash7353 wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:As far as the fire goes, I like the idea of it being an accident that happened when the Miyanos tried to extract themselves, or Vermouth did it. I don't think the BO would have destroyed their own valuable work, or their own scientists.


We know the Miyanos died in what is described as an accident. But I'm sure I'm not the first one to theorise that they were actually killed by the Black Organisation. Despite their involvement in the Black Organisation, both Shiho and Akemi have been firmly portrayed as good guys. Given the kind of series this is, I would be surprised if their parents turned out to be evil. So maybe they refused to continue their research at some point, possible over moral concerns, so the Black Organisation decided to kill them and have Shiho continue instead. The fire could be the supposed accident which killed the Miyanos. That would actually connect a few bits quite nicely.
Another option to consider is that Elena and Mary seem to be related to each other. Mary appears to be a spy if her actions are anything to go by. If Elena contacted Mary and said "Hey, we need to get out of here before we make this drug the Organization definitely shouldn't have," then Mary might have attempted to create a plot so that Atsushi and Elena could escape. Making it so the parents appear to die in a fire isn't bad. Then there could have been a later plot to get the kids out that failed, something like insinuate a spy, grab the kids, and scram.
I do find it convenient that the Kohji/Amanda case is 17ya and would have taken place soon after the Miyanos died in an accident. If someone tried to help the Miyanos escape and failed (related to Amanda?) that could have triggered the later events. I wonder if there is a connection there.

The weird part about this theory, and Elena in general, is the existence of Elena's tapes. It would appear that Elena planned to leave Shiho in the Organization to finish the drug. That's just straight-up odd. I believe Elena is a good character as the evidence suggests, but I can't imagine a scenario where the parents would leave but not the kids. Maybe Akemi was tasked with protecting Ai from the Org, but she would have been ~7-8 at the time. Who makes a child responsible for the life of their sister? I guess it's technically possible to doubt the veracity of the tapes (someone else recorded them with Elena's voice, but to trick Akemi who did know her Mom?), but I don't know why anyone would make them. Everything about the Miyano deaths and Elena is ... odd.

Maybe the Miyanos' deaths were suicides? They couldn't get out, but they couldn't finish the drug, so they killed themselves for lack of other options.

Edit: spelling and grammar, no content changes, except this edit line.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on May 21st, 2017, 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Nemomon » May 21st, 2017, 3:05 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Nemomon wrote:I think a more interesting thing is how the drug supposed to kill. Isn't it strange that the BO too soon confirmed Shinichi's death?
Actually, Shiho explained in her intro chapter that she made that call. She and some BO searched the house twice with her on the team because she was the drug's creator. She noticed the child clothes disappeared and suspected the truth, but marked Shinichi dead because she didn't want him killed before he could be studied I guess.


Yeah, but after Shiho betrayed the Organisation, the BO executives once again reviewed her list of casualties. Plus, it appears there were plenty of people above Shiho that controlled her, and her work, so it is pretty strange that they marked him dead only because his house seemed to be empty and not used since a while.

My point is that the BO didn't look for the dead body, and was not surprised that a teenager is missing and nobody is making a fuss about that, because from the start they knew that the drug is not only killing a person, but also it erases the body. Therefore they already knew that a body will be nowhere to be found, and did not bother looking for it. Which means that at least partially they knew the effect of the drug (the body instead of being erased shrank). It could be that in fact the BO pretty well knows that the drug shrunks people but they didn't think that the shrinking effect at some point would stop, and the victim would survive instead of turning into an egg cell. Plus, we know that the Boss is a very careful person, and would not mark someone dead without confirming (finding a dead body) him being dead. Look at Akai - they were filming killing him to be 100% sure that he's dead. I'm pretty sure that at least the Boss could come to a conclusion that a poisoned person could be afraid of returning home and instead is hiding somewhere, and that's why his house is empty. Well, again unless the Boss knew that since the body will be gone, visiting the house will be enough to confirm his death. But I wonder what would they do if for example Shinichi would be living with some mistress? He almost was adult, it wouldn't be strange for him to have a mistress visiting him or living with him.

And of course by "the BO" I mean at least the codenamed members and higher.
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Re: Chekhov's V2 APTX 4869 Theories

Postby MeiTanteixX » May 21st, 2017, 3:27 am

bash7353 wrote:So maybe they refused to continue their research at some point, possible over moral concerns, so the Black Organisation decided to kill them and have Shiho continue instead. The fire could be the supposed accident which killed the Miyanos. That would actually connect a few bits quite nicely.
If the Miyano's(Elena) expressed dissatisfaction, It would be stupid to kill them when you can threaten them by using Akemi(and eventually Shiho) as a hostage. The Miyanos wanted to leave, so the fact that they didn't plan on bringing their daughters with them(File 821) further supports that possibility. Killing them with the hope that their daughter could fill their shoes is very out of character for the BO.

Vermouth being behind it on the otherhand makes total sense, and that could tie into why she wanted to use Itakura's software for possibly hiding something connected to the Miyano research(like the "accident").
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Re: Chekhov's V2 APTX 4869 Theories

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 21st, 2017, 4:21 am

MeiTanteixX wrote:
bash7353 wrote:So maybe they refused to continue their research at some point, possible over moral concerns, so the Black Organisation decided to kill them and have Shiho continue instead. The fire could be the supposed accident which killed the Miyanos. That would actually connect a few bits quite nicely.
If the Miyano's(Elena) expressed dissatisfaction, It would be stupid to kill them when you can threaten them by using Akemi(and eventually Shiho) as a hostage. The Miyanos wanted to leave, so the fact that they didn't plan on bringing their daughters with them(File 821) further supports that possibility. Killing them with the hope that their daughter could fill their shoes is very out of character for the BO.

Vermouth being behind it on the otherhand makes total sense, and that could tie into why she wanted to use Itakura's software for possibly hiding something connected to the Miyano research(like the "accident").

We are pretty much on the same page here. Vermouth wanted to hide something that's why she needed that software so badly and it was a personal goal, not a BO goal.
But I do have some reservation about her being the cause of the "accident". Miyanos already wanted to leave BO, but they didn't want to abandon the research at all. So they had to ensure a scenario where BO won't be coming after them. So they destroyed their lab all by themselves, burned down the notes and stuff related to research so that BO can never get the things done and faked their own deaths. They left Ai and Akemi behind so that they(Miyano parents) can hide better from the BO. If Vermouth really was behind the fire, then she would have ensured that nothing is left for the further progress of the research. She would have taken more care in destroying the data than killing the Miyanos.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » May 21st, 2017, 1:15 pm

Nemomon wrote:Yeah, but after Shiho betrayed the Organisation, the BO executives once again reviewed her list of casualties.
That was not stated in manga, 95% sure.

Nemomon wrote:Plus, it appears there were plenty of people above Shiho that controlled her, and her work, so it is pretty strange that they marked him dead only because his house seemed to be empty and not used since a while.
Someone gave her orders, but we don't know who is over Shiho's head or anything about what they are like. Shiho knows Vermouth, Gin, Vodka, and Rye but she seems pretty disconnected from the rest of the Black Organization. And I agree that it seems pretty lax of the Organization not to review Shiho's work from soon before her betrayal, but as of the Vermouth arc end Gin still thought Shinichi dead, and I'd assume he'd be first to know if someone was reviewing that case.

Nemomon wrote:My point is that the BO didn't look for the dead body, and was not surprised that a teenager is missing and nobody is making a fuss about that, because from the start they knew that the drug is not only killing a person, but also it erases the body.
The Haneda Kohji case seems to contradict this point. Amanda and Kohji both died mysterious deaths, cause of death unknown. Kohji was APTXed because his name was on the list. Kohji's body was found as an adult. This point has been argued before, and it was pointed out that Gin specifies that no traces of the drug can be found on the body, not that the body disappears. Also, if the body was supposed to vanish, then why would Kudo Shinichi who disappeared as expected have his death marked unconfirmed?

I think what we need to accept as readers is that the Black Organization is far from perfect or competent; there are many hints that it is not as careful, logical, or cohesive as all the characters hype it up to be. Examples I can think of are Vermouth's freedom to move, Akai's death video being kept from Amuro until late even though he was given permission from the boss to investigate, all the codenamed spies, and Mary, Ai, and Conan getting away. Second, we also need to cope with the fact that Aoyama Gosho has been building this manga piecemeal over the years. To do that and keep it 100% logically internally consistent and never have a changing vision as a writer is beyond most people.
I personally have accepted that, like many of the monthly cases, details are not thought through 100%. There are often strange issues and inconsistencies if events and motives are followed to their logical conclusions. For example, Akemi complimenting Conan highly to Shiho after their first meet even though all Conan did was try to stick a tracking sticker on Ran's butt. Gin either had or expected Kir to know Akai's current working cellphone number when he forced her to set him up in Red vs. Black. Shuukichi was initially portrayed as a young child in advance of the Akai family flashback case when he should have been a teen. I don't expect the BO's actions will make sense 100% of the time, nor will all the implications make perfect sense. Gosho has a story to write, and the star isn't the BO's most likely incredibly overworked coverup team. Like the way forensics and investigations have been stylized for the convenience of teen detectives unofficially investigating crime scenes, so I expect Gosho has probably decided to let certain BO things slide for the sake of storytelling.
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Re: Chekhov's V2 APTX 4869 Theories

Postby bash7353 » May 23rd, 2017, 7:07 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Another option to consider is that Elena and Mary seem to be related to each other. Mary appears to be a spy if her actions are anything to go by. If Elena contacted Mary and said "Hey, we need to get out of here before we make this drug the Organization definitely shouldn't have," then Mary might have attempted to create a plot so that Atsushi and Elena could escape. Making it so the parents appear to die in a fire isn't bad. Then there could have been a later plot to get the kids out that failed, something like insinuate a spy, grab the kids, and scram.
I do find it convenient that the Kohji/Amanda case is 17ya and would have taken place soon after the Miyanos died in an accident. If someone tried to help the Miyanos escape and failed (related to Amanda?) that could have triggered the later events. I wonder if there is a connection there.

The weird part about this theory, and Elena in general, is the existence of Elena's tapes. It would appear that Elena planned to leave Shiho in the Organization to finish the drug. That's just straight-up odd. I believe Elena is a good character as the evidence suggests, but I can't imagine a scenario where the parents would leave but not the kids. Maybe Akemi was tasked with protecting Ai from the Org, but she would have been ~7-8 at the time. Who makes a child responsible for the life of their sister? I guess it's technically possible to doubt the veracity of the tapes (someone else recorded them with Elena's voice, but to trick Akemi who did know her Mom?), but I don't know why anyone would make them. Everything about the Miyano deaths and Elena is ... odd.

Maybe the Miyanos' deaths were suicides? They couldn't get out, but they couldn't finish the drug, so they killed themselves for lack of other options.

Edit: spelling and grammar, no content changes, except this edit line.


I think it makes sense to assume that the reason Erena thought she was not going to be able to be in contact with Shiho as late as her 18th, possibly 20th, birthday, is different from the reason she has actually not been able to be in touch with her. It is important to note that in one of the tapes, she directly links her separation from Shiho to the research she and he husband engage in.

To me it doesn't make any sense that she wanted to leave the Organisation, but leave her two children behind. I also think it doesn't make sense that they wanted to fake their deaths to flee. You yourself point out quite well where problems with that are. Regardless of what actually unfolded, there must have been some sort of plan that led Erena to believe it would be a good idea to record all those tapes.

To me it seems that there is some sort of deal between the Miyanos and the Black Organisation that would involve them not being in touch with their children for perhaps around 20 years which leads to Erena recording the tapes as her only means of talking to Shiho. And that deal is connected to the research as suggested in the 18th tape.

In the end, though, it didn't play out that way. Instead, they died.

When it comes to Mary's involvement, I think the easiest way to connect that would be to say that Erena sought help from her sister Mary who was bodyguard at the time, who in turn got her husband Tsutomu involved. When the Miyanos died, Mary and Tsutomu decided to try and figure out whether that was really an accident and stuff, and subsequently ended up part of a larger conflict up until the current time.

I haven't really been able to structure this in a way that makes sense. Hopefully it is still understandable what I'm trying to say.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » May 23rd, 2017, 5:34 pm

@Bash I think we are on the same page. I think you have described the best explanations we can have right now which keep everyone in character and consistent with the facts.




I mean to post this a while ago, but I made a list of benchmark posts which show how my theories on Rum have evolved over the arc. You can find in on the first page of this thread Ctrl-F for Rum.

Here's my current status on arc issues.

Kuroda Hyoue - Someone who isn't the original pre-coma Kuroda. He is swapped with someone, but I think he might be part of a backstory that isn't known yet, so we still haven't "met" his real ID in the story yet if that makes any sense. I think he may have known Elena or Mary because he got pretty close to Haibara almost as if on purpose that one time.

Wakasa Rumi - Was Asaka, Amanda's bodyguard, yet is innocent of Kohji and Amanda's murder. She wants to know the truth behind the double murder so she posted a website of clues. She is trying to test Conan to see if he can help her or use Conan to rope Kogoro/Shinichi into helping her. Unaware of the Black Organization by name, but obviously she has witnessed their murderous handiwork.

Kanenori Wakita - I am inclined to think he is on the side of good, but I am uncomfortable really calling it because he needs a second major case. For now, I say he is Amuro's boxing teacher who also taught him a thing or two about waitstaffing and cooking.

Website Uploader - Rumi

Akai Tsutomu - no opinion yet.

Mary Sera - Elena's sister, British SIS/MI6 spy, shrunk with APTX (by Rum?), and currently on the run

Ooka Momiji - The Akako to Heiji's Kaito and Kazuha's Aoko. Plot useless except for romantic comedies with Heiji.

Muga Iori - basically Akako's monster butler with a makeover. Plot useless except for romantic comedies with Heiji.

Asaka - Rumi

The dying message mirror - ASACA RUM is meant to be "Wakasa Rumi", but she's not the killer. I believe Hyoue suspects "Wakasa Rumi" is the meaning of the dying message which is why he suspects and is hanging around Rumi now. The Black Organization doesn't know about Rumi and is fixated on the Rum interpretation of the message, so they are completely in the dark. They hate loose ends they don't understand, so they try to take down the website and send agents after "Asaca" things hoping to figure it out.

Rum - Chikara Katsumata because of course it's gonna be the final shogi showdown of ultimate destiny between Kohji's protege and his killer, getting the Akai family some vengeance.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby MeiTanteixX » May 23rd, 2017, 6:28 pm

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Here's my current status on arc issues.

Kuroda Hyoue - Someone who isn't the original pre-coma Kuroda. He is swapped with someone, but I think he might be part of a backstory that isn't known yet, so we still haven't "met" his real ID in the story yet if that makes any sense. I think he may have known Elena or Mary because he got pretty close to Haibara almost as if on purpose that one time.

Wakasa Rumi - Was Asaka, Amanda's bodyguard, yet is innocent of Kohji and Amanda's murder. She wants to know the truth behind the double murder so she posted a website of clues. She is trying to test Conan to see if he can help her or use Conan to rope Kogoro/Shinichi into helping her. Unaware of the Black Organization by name, but obviously she has witnessed their murderous handiwork.

Kanenori Wakita - I am inclined to think he is on the side of good, but I am uncomfortable really calling it because he needs a second major case. For now, I say he is Amuro's boxing teacher who also taught him a thing or two about waitstaffing and cooking.

Website Uploader - Rumi

Akai Tsutomu - no opinion yet.

Mary Sera - Elena's sister, British SIS/MI6 spy, shrunk with APTX (by Rum?), and currently on the run

Ooka Momiji - The Akako to Heiji's Kaito and Kazuha's Aoko. Plot useless except for romantic comedies with Heiji.

Muga Iori - basically Akako's monster butler with a makeover. Plot useless except for romantic comedies with Heiji.

Asaka - Rumi

The dying message mirror - ASACA RUM is meant to be "Wakasa Rumi", but she's not the killer. I believe Hyoue suspects "Wakasa Rumi" is the meaning of the dying message which is why he suspects and is hanging around Rumi now. The Black Organization doesn't know about Rumi and is fixated on the Rum interpretation of the message, so they are completely in the dark. They hate loose ends they don't understand, so they try to take down the website and send agents after "Asaca" things hoping to figure it out.

Rum - Chikara Katsumata because of course it's gonna be the final shogi showdown of ultimate destiny between Kohji's protege and his killer, getting the Akai family some vengeance.
Kuroda - reasonable speculation(at least the beginning part).

Wakasa - Still lacks explanations to her evil-natured side and Haibara's trigger.

Wakita - Him being good(not-BO-related) seems highly unlikely so far.

Uploader - If you basically are saying it's Asaka(since you believe Asaka=Rumi), then at least we can agree on that.

Iori - wouldn't dismiss him as an irrelevant side character so easily if I were you.

Dying message - So you think Kohji thought he was being killed be Asaka/Wakasa and made a half-assed message with the letters that he had to spell out her full name?

Rum - I take it this is just a joke.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » May 23rd, 2017, 9:06 pm

MeiTanteixX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Rum - Chikara Katsumata because of course it's gonna be the final shogi showdown of ultimate destiny between Kohji's protege and his killer, getting the Akai family some vengeance.

Rum - I take it this is just a joke.


She's not joking (viewtopic.php?p=874112#p874112).

As for me, Chikara happens to be one of my top 2 candidates for who's going to turn out to be Rum (the other is Heizo Hattori).
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » May 23rd, 2017, 9:26 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Rum - Chikara Katsumata because of course it's gonna be the final shogi showdown of ultimate destiny between Kohji's protege and his killer, getting the Akai family some vengeance.

Rum - I take it this is just a joke.
She's not—and she's not the only one who thinks the odds of him being Rum are higher than those of the other suspects. In fact, Chikara happens to be one of my top 2 candidates for who's going to turn out to be Rum (the other is Heizo Hattori).
I finished working out the three Rum aspects for Chikara, which was my main sticking point for a while. I was looking for ideas mentioned in manga to avoid imposing unnecessarily subjective opinions. They are: Chikara is generally sturdy and broad shouldered (Objective obversation) = strongly-built man aspect; Minus shogi players and rakugo performers, only elderly in Japan commonly wear traditional kimonos (Yumi mentioned this) = elderly man aspect; Beauty products and other accessories to mind his appearance per typical shogi vanity (Ai mentioned this) = feminine man aspect.

@DCUniverseAficionado I can't really get behind Heizo Hattori because he appears unconnected to various current affairs, and he is an especially old character who I think predates ideas about Rum. Regardless, there is no way to reason with @MeitanteixX on most of his ideas. He won't abide by a theory that's too simple or too mainstream unless the evidence becomes overwhelming.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Swagnarok » May 23rd, 2017, 9:38 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Rum - Chikara Katsumata because of course it's gonna be the final shogi showdown of ultimate destiny between Kohji's protege and his killer, getting the Akai family some vengeance.

Rum - I take it this is just a joke.


She's
not joking (viewtopic.php?p=874112#p874112).

As for me, Chikara happens to be one of my top 2 candidates for who's going to turn out to be Rum (the other is Heizo Hattori).


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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby MeiTanteixX » May 24th, 2017, 1:23 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Regardless, there is no way to reason with @MeitanteixX on most of his ideas. He won't abide by a theory that's too simple or too mainstream unless the evidence becomes overwhelming.
don't want this to turn into something like last time, so I'm just gonna ask, what are you referring to with the bolded part? I find it very funny how you are assuming we have gotten 100% undeniable evidence about anything in the current Rum plot.
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Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''
Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 24th, 2017, 3:06 am

There was another person keenly observing the stuff happening during the burning tent case. Maybe Rumi's trigger of Haib's dokkun is just a red herring while the real pressure came from Kuroda, who was in the back observing stuff.

Haibara can't sense BO stuff from Kuroda as he never knew the existence of Haibara. So Haibara didn't get any smell from Kuroda, and Kuroda might be another infiltrator in the BO that's why he keeps mum about Conan's involvements.
His name roughly translates to (Black label/Black sack). So ideal for an infiltrator. He wants to catch Rum, that's why he's keenly following the Kohji case and considers Wakasa Rumi as Rum.

Wakita could be another person impersonating Rum features. He has an eye with a supposed injury, he's strongly built and his name roughly translates to (To Brew Golden Starch). It's more like he wants to confirm Kogoro's knowledge about Rum. Can be Rum or Rum's enemy. More likely to be Rum's enemy.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » May 24th, 2017, 4:29 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:@DCUniverseAficionado I can't really get behind Heizo Hattori because he appears unconnected to various current affairs, and he is an especially old character who I think predates ideas about Rum.


Granted—you'd think he would've appeared, by now, if Gosho, at least, wanted to use him as a suspect. There's still time, though, for him to get involved in things.

Doesn't mean that Gosho can't decide to have an old character fill a newer role—there's room for new precedent.

Chikara is my prime pick, in terms of characters that have been introduced during the Rum arc, while Heizo is my prime pick, in terms of characters introduced prior to the Rum arc.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » May 24th, 2017, 4:38 am

MeiTanteixX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Regardless, there is no way to reason with @MeitanteixX on most of his ideas. He won't abide by a theory that's too simple or too mainstream unless the evidence becomes overwhelming.
don't want this to turn into something like last time, so I'm just gonna ask, what are you referring to with the bolded part? I find it very funny how you are assuming we have gotten 100% undeniable evidence about anything in the current Rum plot.
I didn't say anything about the status of the Rum arc or the evidence levels. That assumption is yours alone. I used the "Chekhov's theories about the plot" thread to give an informal status update on Chekhov's current thoughts since my position on certain issues had shifted over time.
I think you should also consider that the tone of your reply was quite dismissive, especially since the post you replied to was not directed to anyone in particular. Considering the context -- my opinions are by no means aggressive or unique (they have all been discussed before by others I am pretty sure) -- it's a little baffling that these "vanilla" speculations (Neapolitan at best) would warrant that level of backlash. In contrast, you are the type of person to make a big organized theory post arguing that Rumi is Vermouth in disguise after she has appeared in two main cases and defend the idea strongly, and say Wakita being "good(not-BO-related) seems highly unlikely so far" after he has had one major case. Paraphrasing that convo from January, we simply don't see eye to eye on the process of solving mysteries, and I don't see either of our positions changing any time soon. If you have already seen what I have said so far about Chikara and still think he is a "just a joke" and not worthy of serious consideration, then I don't think there is anything more I can add with the current evidence at the current time to convince you. Maybe DCUniverseAficionado could pull it off (s/he's got a knack for being very convincing), but I don't think a discussion between us would be fruitful because evidence is still thin for many issues right now and we are starting from two very different philosophies.

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