Chekhov's theories about the plot

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
ALAKTORN
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby ALAKTORN » May 12th, 2016, 12:07 pm

What postcard is this about siblings?
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » May 12th, 2016, 9:40 pm

ALAKTORN wrote:What postcard is this about siblings?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3518&start=1020#p865263

Or do you mean the interview where Gosho says two mother characters are sisters?
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby ALAKTORN » May 12th, 2016, 10:59 pm

I meant that, thanks. …Did Aoyama just reveal it like that or am I really far behind with the plot?
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » May 18th, 2016, 2:33 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:What you call the "newcomer/inexperienced crowd" or what I would term readers in general is the only crowd that Gosho plays to. Gosho has never given any indication that he cares that fans are solving his stuff years early and doesn't seem to create arc-level mysteries tailored towards challenging these people. It makes sense, hyper-dedicated fans are a significant minority. If anything, Gosho prefers to reuse useful mechanics from the last mystery so he doesn't have to establish a new internal ruleset every arc. People who say "X can't be right because Gosho wouldn't do something obvious" are wrongly imposing their prior experiences with authors who are "must twist-twist-twist" types or care about the hyper-dedicated fanbase. You have to give up the "but it would be too easy" mindset to be successful with Gosho. Gosho throws some harder mysteries (explaining the mechanics of Akai's fake death which only a few people tackled to near completion across the whole multi-language internet.), and he throws some easier ones (Who is Masumi Sera), but there is no indication he avoids certain solutions because they are "too predictable".

@AkaixAkemi. They were questionable because they were adults, and I fully expect adults to have an adult relationship even in the prudish Gosholand. Having an adult relationship with your first cousin is incest. I assume they didn't know, but that doesn't make it any less incestuous. I still think the pairing would be questionable even in the half-sister theory because they are still first cousins by family ties. "Technically it's okay" doesn't quite paper over dating someone who would come to your family reunion if you had one.


Was the Bourbon arc what led to the conclusion that Gosho doesn't care about "too predictable" solutions? (Though the Kir arc re-used stuff, and, quite frankly, the earliest cases in DC established patterns that Gosho's reused often... threatening-looking characters aren't the culprits, harmless-looking characters are, the culprit of a serial murder case will hurt themselves to escape suspicion, etc.) As I see it, the fact that Gosho made the Bourbon arc led to the perception that Gosho doesn't care about making long arcs that are essentially comprised of a mix of elements of what has been seen before, with just a bit of variation, thus leading to some saying that this is what we can expect, from now, until the end of DC. This perception seems to suggest that, DC is of inferior quality, now, as compared to any of the arcs before the Bourbon arc, especially the first three, and that's how it's gonna be until it ends.

If it's revealed that Elena and Mary are sisters, then Shuichi and Akemi had an incestuous relationship. Point is, they're no longer in an incestuous relationship, and never will be, again. It may have been a not so good situation, in terms of potentially leading to a child/children with genetic defects, but there's no chance of that now (unless Gosho reveals, later on, that Akemi did get pregnant and have Shuichi's kid or kids, at some point before she died, and the BO now have them and are planning to raise the kid or kids to get rid of his/her/their own father, which I'm pretty confident is not going to happen).

ALAKTORN wrote:Did Aoyama just reveal it like that or am I really far behind with the plot?


What File/Chapter are you currently on?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Spimer » May 18th, 2016, 4:28 am

I think Alaktorn was wondering if this deal about the "true sisters" had been revealed only in a postcard or if it'd been revealed on the manga.

The answer is that, as far as I know, this has only been mentioned in the postcards and never brought up in the manga.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » May 18th, 2016, 5:05 am

Spimer wrote:I think Alaktorn was wondering if this deal about the "true sisters" had been revealed only in a postcard or if it'd been revealed on the manga.

The answer is that, as far as I know, this has only been mentioned in the postcards and never brought up in the manga.


But ALAKTORN suggested being "far behind" in terms of plot, hence my inquiry about what file he/she was currently on.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Spimer » May 18th, 2016, 7:48 am

Hum. You've got a point there as well. I hadn't thought about it.
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ALAKTORN
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby ALAKTORN » May 18th, 2016, 8:54 am

…I seem to be on chapter 693 which is pretty far back. I meant what Spimer answered, so thanks.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby jimmy_kud0_tv2 » May 18th, 2016, 10:02 am

ALAKTORN wrote:…I seem to be on chapter 693 which is pretty far back. I meant what Spimer answered, so thanks.


While the sisters thing (Both the mother sisters, and Haibara / Akemi) still has not been brought up in the manga directly,
but the beginnings of something that may lead to it starts with the end of file 941. However its been nearly 20 chapters since then
and nothing more has come up related to it.

according to the small portion of the Da Vinci magazine interviews (2014) we have that is translated,
we should be getting more of Elena through Amuro's point of view soon, maybe that might give us more?

""まずね、安室透の本名が判明する。彼の回想になぜか灰原の母・エレーナも出てきてね。とある二人の母同士が姉妹だとわかったり……。
いろいろなことがつながりますね。まずいなあ、しゃべりすぎです。まあ、連載を楽しみにしてください""
I hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » May 19th, 2016, 6:02 pm

jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:
ALAKTORN wrote:…I seem to be on chapter 693 which is pretty far back. I meant what Spimer answered, so thanks.


While the sisters thing (Both the mother sisters, and Haibara / Akemi) still has not been brought up in the manga directly,
but the beginnings of something that may lead to it starts with the end of file 941. However its been nearly 20 chapters since then
and nothing more has come up related to it.


Shinichi/Conan, in 942, speculated more about Shuichi being related to Shiho, and then was about to connect him with Akemi before being interrupted.

Now, after 951–953, he may start to think about Mary and Elena in a future case. If Rei/Tooru is present during said case, we may see him flashback to a moment with Elena, perhaps even an expanded version of the flashback from 888–890/770–771.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » May 24th, 2016, 9:04 pm

a user asked me the following question by PM, and I thought the answer may be useful to someone.

Hi, Chek.

A quick question regarding your "Boss is possibly a shrunken adult" theory. Were there any evidence (parents;otherwise) that neither of those two students (the boy and girl) that joined Conan's class a few years ago were the Boss? If so, how would you personally see the character if you could design him?


They seemed pretty normal for kids. I have no residual suspicions about them. You know how in old cartoons you could tell which objects were going to move because they were drawn differently and lighter-colored than the background? Gosho sort of has an equivalent tell. Important plot characters have more careful designs than the usual suspects and tend to be cool or attractive (and younger too). "Normals" tend to be plain or have appearance quirks. Let me put it this way, none of the arc BO suspects are fat or have Agasa noses or funny shaped heads. People picked up on Okiya right away in his intro case because he was simply drawn more carefully than a standard suspect and was also "cool". For a plot important child design, I don't expect the boss to look fat like Genta, or "dorky" like Mitsuhiko. I suspect someone a bit like a male Haibara with sharp eyes, or maybe a slightly more innocent face if Gosho is going for shock value.

In the "find the boss" excel spreadsheet of all named characters I linked in an earlier post, I think I may have included certain appearances as a disqualifying characteristic because of this principle. Mostly I am concerned with the details of faces.

Gosho has acknowledged this "cool/attractive character design is better than quirky/plain" principle exists.
Q:先生が漫画を描く上で大事なさっていることは?
When sensei draws manga, what do you value?
A:男の子はかっこよく、女の子は可愛くですね。最近は蘭や世良などの女の子もかっこよくなってきちゃいましたけどね(笑)。
To draw cool boys and cute girls. Though Ran and Sera and such girls are becoming cooler these days (laughs).

An especially odd-shaped face that is too skinny or fat or banana-shaped with unusual or dorky features just wouldn't look good next to Conan or the other BO in a final chapters. There are some authors who recognize this trope and purposefully design a major boss who doesn't look like major boss material. I think Gosho is cognizant of the trend, but will choose to stick with it anyway because it looks better and the drama/seriousness value overrides the shock surprise factor.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby unclesporkums » May 25th, 2016, 3:19 pm

Personally, I'd prefer the shock/surprise element as I'm sick of the Ai lookalikes.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby MeiTanteixX » May 25th, 2016, 3:46 pm

Camel was a BO suspect during the kir arc, and although he wasn't fat/skinny, he definitely had interesting facial features that could be classified as "case-only plain".
Even if the Boss was shrunken adult, I doubt Gosho would play around with different Boss suspects, since it would make them obvious. If he plays his cards right, he can definitely give us a surprise without deviating too much from his usual "plot techniques".
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » May 25th, 2016, 9:56 pm

MeiTanteixX wrote:Camel was a BO suspect during the kir arc, and although he wasn't fat/skinny, he definitely had interesting facial features that could be classified as "case-only plain".
Camel is not "case-only plain" by my definition; he's extra-time-was-put-into-drawing-him-in-every-panel ugly. You can see it in his hair especially, but also jawline and browline to a lesser extent. Keeping that many bony angles consistent is not easy, but Gosho puts in the effort! He's not even as hideous as he could be; Camel doesn't have the soulless and hideous foreigner eyes that Gosho sometimes uses for throwaway foreign characters (I'm not talking about the small pupil eyes. Look at the background foreign characters in Shinichi's NY case, London case, and red vs black background FBI for examples of the creepy foreigner eyes.). Take some screenshots of the filler FBI in chap 598 and paste Camel's pic in the middle. You can pick Camel out of a lineup of filler FBI because of the extra detail.

While many of the plot important characters are pretty/handsome/cool, that's doesn't cover it because many oneshot case suspects are also drawn in the typically beautiful style too. "Drawn with more detail" is the other half and is important in cases like Camel where being a gonk is a relevant character attribute.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Themaninarmor » May 26th, 2016, 1:57 am

Poor... Camel. :-D
hmm maybe this is unrelated to boss but there was mysterious character in bombing train case where gin and vodka appeared.
He is one of the 3 suspects. He is old fat man and he is deaf too. But there were something weird about him. He had listening device like the MIB in hijack bus case but i had impression that he wasn't deaf in the first place.
Well he is one of the suspect so it was common that he acted mysterious but gosho was always telling the reason of the suspect
acted mysteriously at the middle or at the end of case (like the old man in baron knight) even conan said he would talk to him later too.
He had mysterious background too. No name, no job background unlike the second suspect (the man that brought laptop), we couldn't guess what is his job.

So all about him is mysterious to me or i'm thinking too much ha ha ha. But if i can ask gosho one question, IS HE IMPORTANT OR NOT? My curiosty is killing me. Thanks
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