Chekhov's theories about the plot

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Flasks and Shogi

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 25th, 2017, 3:50 am

MeiTanteixX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:And in the time it took me to make another diagram, Chikara is starting to put on serious mileage in Kor's poll. 7 votes compared to 2 apiece for the next most popular options, Fakuroda and new char.

Here is the beta version of a diagram I am thinking of using for the Silver Bullet / APTX 4869 / original drug stuff.
Thoughts?

Spoiler:
Image

This "alpha" drug, or as Zerozaki put it, "Original source", do u mean that SB and APTX stem from the same scientific area? Or do you mean that there was literally an "alpha" drug that was recreated differently by the Miyano? If it's the former, then yeah, that makes sense.
Why not both? They aren't mutually exclusive ideas.
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Re: Flasks and Shogi

Postby MeiTanteixX » June 25th, 2017, 3:54 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:And in the time it took me to make another diagram, Chikara is starting to put on serious mileage in Kor's poll. 7 votes compared to 2 apiece for the next most popular options, Fakuroda and new char.

Here is the beta version of a diagram I am thinking of using for the Silver Bullet / APTX 4869 / original drug stuff.
Thoughts?

Spoiler:
Image

This "alpha" drug, or as Zerozaki put it, "Original source", do u mean that SB and APTX stem from the same scientific area? Or do you mean that there was literally an "alpha" drug that was recreated differently by the Miyano? If it's the former, then yeah, that makes sense.
Why not both? They aren't mutually exclusive ideas.
they definitely are not, but the latter... I'm not sure it has a basis, or have I missed certain clues?
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

DeviantArt:http://meitanteixx.deviantart.com/
Tumblr:http://masterdetectivexx.tumblr.com/
Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFL6Gqku3dvoPhWaNIRUu0Q
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Flasks and Shogi

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 25th, 2017, 4:13 am

MeiTanteixX wrote: they definitely are not, but the latter... I'm not sure it has a basis, or have I missed certain clues?
I've been building a case for it. Disclosure, I am still fact checking the second point.

http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki ... known_drug
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Re: Flasks and Shogi

Postby MeiTanteixX » June 25th, 2017, 4:17 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote: they definitely are not, but the latter... I'm not sure it has a basis, or have I missed certain clues?
I've been building a case for it. Disclosure, I am still fact checking the second point.

http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki ... known_drug
Ah...
So you don't think that the "different drug" she was referring to(in File 948) was what ended up leading to the creation of the current APTX prototype?
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

DeviantArt:http://meitanteixx.deviantart.com/
Tumblr:http://masterdetectivexx.tumblr.com/
Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFL6Gqku3dvoPhWaNIRUu0Q
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Flasks and Shogi

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 25th, 2017, 4:36 am

MeiTanteixX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote: they definitely are not, but the latter... I'm not sure it has a basis, or have I missed certain clues?
I've been building a case for it. Disclosure, I am still fact checking the second point.

http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki ... known_drug
Ah...
So you don't think that the "different drug" she was referring to(in File 948) was what ended up leading to the creation of the current APTX prototype?
I believe in my diagram, which is only half complete and not well marked, I indicated that Shiho is linked to two projects, APTX 4869 and another drug which may not exist if Shiho didn't get around to working on it yet as the BO wanted. Both of these emerged from the ashes of her parents' research. (I attempted to show in the diagram how the research might have been mixed up by the fire.) Her parents' I put as having two drugs as well - one which was APTX 4869, and the other was silver bullet. APTX and silver bullet may in fact be the same drug at different stages of development with two different names, but for the sake of this argument and the diagram I have labelled them separately - one which the BO "gave up on" and used as a murder drug, the other which the Miyanos placed their hope in. I believe the Miyanos assumed control over a pre-existing drug project when they first joined the Organization 30 years ago, and their efforts to recreate/fix/improve an "alpha drug" for lack of a better term led to the creation of Silver Bullet and APTX 4869.
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Re: Flasks and Shogi

Postby MeiTanteixX » June 25th, 2017, 6:52 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote: they definitely are not, but the latter... I'm not sure it has a basis, or have I missed certain clues?
I've been building a case for it. Disclosure, I am still fact checking the second point.

http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki ... known_drug
Ah...
So you don't think that the "different drug" she was referring to(in File 948) was what ended up leading to the creation of the current APTX prototype?
I believe in my diagram, which is only half complete and not well marked, I indicated that Shiho is linked to two projects, APTX 4869 and another drug which may not exist if Shiho didn't get around to working on it yet as the BO wanted. Both of these emerged from the ashes of her parents' research. (I attempted to show in the diagram how the research might have been mixed up by the fire.) Her parents' I put as having two drugs as well - one which was APTX 4869, and the other was silver bullet. APTX and silver bullet may in fact be the same drug at different stages of development with two different names, but for the sake of this argument and the diagram I have labelled them separately - one which the BO "gave up on" and used as a murder drug, the other which the Miyanos placed their hope in. I believe the Miyanos assumed control over a pre-existing drug project when they first joined the Organization 30 years ago, and their efforts to recreate/fix/improve an "alpha drug" for lack of a better term led to the creation of Silver Bullet and APTX 4869.
I see, thanks for the summary.
Sounds like a lot of drugs were involved... but ofc, although it's a bit convoluted in my opinion, it doesn't contradict with the facts.
I personally see the moment when Haibara heard Elena's tapes as the turning point on her previously established knowledge regarding her parents' research. Rather than her taking over her parents' research(SB), she has been working with a different drug(APTX), and that the BO intended for her to use SB materials to further the APTX research. Ofc, the reason why the BO funded the Miyano's SB research(that works in the same scientific area as APTX, thus sharing similar development stages) was because they were planning on using it to progress their own.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

DeviantArt:http://meitanteixx.deviantart.com/
Tumblr:http://masterdetectivexx.tumblr.com/
Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFL6Gqku3dvoPhWaNIRUu0Q
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Another day, another diagram.

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 27th, 2017, 5:14 pm

So I made a collage of the evidence panels, yet it didn't feel impactful, so I started fiddling with the colors, but then I went overboard, and here we are now. If you check carefully, you will notice I did take a few liberties to maintain conciseness, such as spelling out unambiguous pronouns, and re-editing several bubbles into just a few.

Sorry, had to use roman numerals because 2s and queries don't mate. 2?2?2?

Also I just realized that because I am putting big images (4<X<12 MB) on the Chek's theories page I could be causing hardships for people with limited phone plans. Will this cause a problem for people?

Image
MeiTanteixX
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Re: Another day, another diagram.

Postby MeiTanteixX » June 27th, 2017, 5:23 pm

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:So I made a collage of the evidence panels, yet it didn't feel impactful, so I started fiddling with the colors, but then I went overboard, and here we are now. If you check carefully, you will notice I did take a few liberties to maintain conciseness, such as spelling out unambiguous pronouns, and re-editing several bubbles into just a few.

Sorry, had to use roman numerals because 2s and queries don't mate. 2?2?2?

Also I just realized that because I am putting big images (4<X<12 MB) on the Chek's theories page I could be causing hardships for people with limited phone plans. Will this cause a problem for people?

Image
Again, well done!
You missed the crucial parts from the doll case(APTX end-goal description). As well as SB description.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

DeviantArt:http://meitanteixx.deviantart.com/
Tumblr:http://masterdetectivexx.tumblr.com/
Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFL6Gqku3dvoPhWaNIRUu0Q
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Another day, another diagram.

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 27th, 2017, 5:44 pm

MeiTanteixX wrote:You missed the crucial parts from the doll case(APTX end-goal description). As well as SB description.
I deliberately avoided that one because I wanted to focus on timeline, not intent, and there were better panels purpose-wise discussing the parents' involvement. My goal was to outline the evidence for a drug that existed before the Miyano parents touched anything, which in turn opens theory possibilities like "who might have taken that one"?
MeiTanteixX
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Re: Another day, another diagram.

Postby MeiTanteixX » June 28th, 2017, 4:23 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:You missed the crucial parts from the doll case(APTX end-goal description). As well as SB description.
I deliberately avoided that one because I wanted to focus on timeline, not intent, and there were better panels purpose-wise discussing the parents' involvement. My goal was to outline the evidence for a drug that existed before the Miyano parents touched anything, which in turn opens theory possibilities like "who might have taken that one"?
I see. Cool nonetheless.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

DeviantArt:http://meitanteixx.deviantart.com/
Tumblr:http://masterdetectivexx.tumblr.com/
Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFL6Gqku3dvoPhWaNIRUu0Q
bash7353

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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby bash7353 » July 1st, 2017, 12:43 pm

Is it really true that Gin says in Chapter 1 that the poison has never been used or tested on humans before? Because that does somewhat contradict its usage 17 years ago on Haneda Kouji. It certainly is true that Haibara suggests in her thoughts that there are two separate drugs, but so far that has not been stated very clearly.
"Jo mere uenig du er med nogen, jo pænere skal du tale til dem. Tal om indholdet. Brug tid på indholdet. Forhold dig til det, der diskuteres. Lyt til, hvad der bliver sagt, i stedet for hvem der siger det. Hvis vi skal gøre det her med demokratiet bedre, så starter vi der."
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ことを時々辞めたくなる

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k11chi
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby k11chi » July 1st, 2017, 2:42 pm

Haibara was the creator of it.
Image
Valentin
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Valentin » July 1st, 2017, 4:05 pm

bash7353 wrote:Is it really true that Gin says in Chapter 1 that the poison has never been used or tested on humans before? Because that does somewhat contradict its usage 17 years ago on Haneda Kouji.
It’s the following:

「まだ人間には試した事がない、試作品らしいがな…」
“It hasn’t been tested on humans yet, it appears to be a prototype …”

Please note that he says らしい ‘to appear’, an expression for judgements based on reason or hearsay. (The Crunchyroll translation in Episode 863 ignores that.) That’s no definitive knowledge—it’s feasible that APTX 4869 had been used seventeen years ago, but no one informed him, or that some false rumors had been circulating and picked up. The utterance might even be pure speculation.

There’s every possibility that Gin is unreliable in that respect and the drug was already employed before.
Spimer
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Spimer » July 1st, 2017, 5:34 pm

A bit more accurate translation would be
「まだ人間には試した事がない、試作品らしいがな…」
"It'd seem it's a prototype that hasn't been tested in humans yet, though..."

Haibara did say she made the current ATPX from the remains of research materials that survived the fire of her parents' lab so it could be that it's different from what the one employed in the past is and she does inwardly think that the BO was actually aiming to achieve another drug altogether (with ATPX being an attempt).
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Valentin » July 1st, 2017, 6:54 pm

Spimer wrote:A bit more accurate translation would be
「まだ人間には試した事がない、試作品らしいがな…」
"It'd seem it's a prototype that hasn't been tested in humans yet, though..."
Are you sure? I dismissed that option because a comma in the sentence would appear weird to me if it were a relative clause.

For that reason, I thought of two separate parts: The first one ending in 事がない states plainly that testing on humans never happened, and only the latter one is weakened by らしい. Gin might, for example, be rather confident about the drug’s usage history because he—as a member of the General Oversight—would have known if it had already been tried in the field, but merely infer from his level of awareness that it’s a prototype because no one other than the members of the Internal Division is acquainted with the specifications as to what poison is available in which version.

Perhaps the wording is supposed to be ambiguous? In any case, the punctuation mark irritates me.

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