Chekhov's theories about the plot

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
galadriel75
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby galadriel75 » July 22nd, 2016, 4:32 am

Hi everyone, first time I write here. :-)
I had my sister, who has been living in Japan for seven years, look at the postcard aboute Shio and Akemi beeing sisters. She says it can be read as they are biological sisters but not necessarily full sisters.

Gosho wouldn't make such importent characters cousins and lovers, but it sure has us wondering and discuss the topic. Hasn't it?
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » August 1st, 2016, 12:18 am

I just wanted to paste a quick cbox transcript that mostly covers theories about the third drug Haibara was talking about and a little speculation about Rumi at the end. This content has been slightly edited for readability and ontopicness. 29 Jul 16, 14:41 --> 31 Jul 16, 20:45

Chek: We are starting with heavier plot though. So far people have massively, massively overlooked the implications of Haibara's other drug that the Bo wanted her to develop, something that wasn't APTX or silver bullet.
Kor: We can't massively overlook something that has barely ever been a thing.
Chek: There is enough to extrapolate implications though
Shadow: and actually it was already a thing in the community for years.. that's probably why the impact wasn't as huge..
Chek: Like why did they need this, why the miyanos did their own thing, what does this thing do?
Shadow: it was more of a confirmation that there indeed was a second drug..
Chek: @Shadow, i think prior theories may have diminished the impact. I have put out one or two, but even so, it bothers me the fandom has glossed over this.
Kor: It's a thing that exists. Gosho has never been interested in exploring the drugs or the software too much. We can write a lot of text over these issues but we can still never be sure we can arrive at the correct answers because Gosho didn't give us the tools to do that
Chek: I am more concerned by what this implies about the relationships between people.
Shadow: yeah..
Shadow: @Kor
Chek: Why didn't the Miyanos work on this other drug, or at least set is aside to do their own thing?
Shadow: i'm not sure if I have the correct line in my head, but if it was the 'what they actually wanted me to do, was another drug' then..
Chek: V That's it.
-----
Other stuff
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Chek: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki ... _convo.jpg
Shadow: @Chek mmm.. honestly I understood that line as 'they wanted me to do the drug again (since the others went rogue/failed..'
Shadow: but I can see the other angle I guess..
Chek: I am not sure how you could pull that context from those panels. (tbh, I should probably just transcribe that convo instead of uploading the panels.)
Chek: @Shadow, I can't see how you would read it as more of the same, as in I don't know how you could parse it that way from English.
Kor: re:drug -I don't like the second drug thing thing cause it just seems like some more unnecessary lore to the series that makes it all more needlessly convoluted than it needs to be. It just feels like one of those things that instead of trying to explore or resolve the things you already have, he just adds new things when there's already enough in the series already.
Chek: @Kor, I don't think is new stuff. I think this, and Vermi's relationship, is the only plot material that dates back to Vermouth plot.
Chek: I think Gosho planned the lore of the second drug from very near the beginning.
Chek: At least pre-Hyde Hotel Showdown when the boss was introduced
Shadow: @Chek I understood it as that Ai describes there that after the 'accident' the BO was tending to her, perhaps being 'nicer' to her than usually ...and then she goes with 'but what they really ...' -> as in 'But I was just a tool for them'..
Kor: eh... maybe. I don't think it was framed as such, though. It feels tacked on due to Gosho not revealing the tape info from the get-go. When it was revealed in the MT, it was met with shrugged and confused response.
Shadow: also as in: actual meaning -> 'just hurry up and create the drug again'
Shadow: be it because the other version failed or the Miyanos went rogue or whatever..
Chek: @Shadow, and then she goes with 'but what they really ...' -> as in 'But I was just a tool for them'... --> Ah, now I see how you could arrive at that conclusion! That said, I don't think I would read it that way, because I would expect Haibara to talk about what she wanted to do before being used in order to generate that context.
Chek: e.g. "I thought I was going to be working on my parents' drug, but what they really wanted me to make was another drug."
Chek: versus the actual convo: I recreated my parent's drug from the data remains, but what they really wanted me to make was another drug.
Shadow: mm never looked at it from the other side - kinda odd that Pisco would compliment her of 'getting her parents drug to this point'.. afterall he should've been there when they would've issued that 'other' drug..
Chek: ... I don't think I wrote that very understandably.
Chek: The other drug might predate pisco...
Shadow: (nah , I see what you mean.. it's fine..)
Shadow: it's obviously possible.. I always saw Pisco as a member that was in there for quite a long time though.. - Gin says something along the lines and Pisco goe with 'a member like me' or something..
Shadow: also having drug intel is apparently not something the BO dishes out everywhere, and Pisco doesn't strike me as the research department..
Chek: I think it dangerous to assume anyone in the BO knows anything beyond what we were told they know. The "people don't talk to each other and information isn't shared as expected" principle is in full effect.
Kor: I just hope that by the time Gosho decides to wrap things up and explain all of this, he'll drop the "gotta have a case" mantra near the end.
Shadow: I'm just saying Pisco apparently is in the know of both what the parents drug was and what the actual endgoal of the drug would look like.. - I can0t imagine so far where this 'other drug' would go in.. ..perhaps if it was an antidote to the first one?
c6251555: I am quite confused about the drug situation after Ai said to herself about the other drug that BO wanted her to make
c6251555: Looking at the case now. Conan: ...and if the drug I took already existed 17 yrs ago...how old are you? (To Haibara)
c6251555: Haibara: you are so rude. I already told you. I am 18
Shadow: it's also to note that Pisco wasn't fazed all that much that a girl of 18 suddenly went back ten or so years.. - then again he did have to look her up to confirm it? or didn't he?.. - at least to him it wasn't too out of the ordinary ...on the contrary he applauded the success.. -- I'd assume a non-savvy member would more go like 'What the hell? How?!!"
Chek: @Shadow, the difference in Pisco's knowledge might be the difference between the purpose of APTX 4869 which is apparently deaging or rejuvination, and the purpose of the Org (which is probably the personal goal of the boss) which is not deaging.
Shadow: @Chek now, I'd like you to fathom me a drug that would blow a rejuvination/deaging one out the door.. =X
Shadow: (read: ~immortality vs. .... )
Chek: I don't fathom a drug that isn't those. The evidence points to deaging, rejuv, whatever.
Chek: Per my personal theories, I think the boss is out to save someone, and needs the drug to achieve that.
Chek: Per my personal theories, what I believe Haibara was being asked to do was recreate the drug which got the boss into the mess he is in currently, rather than make an equivalent.
Shadow: if it goes into the same field of rejuv/deage then I wonder agai though about that 'another drug'.. it would seem the Miyanos were on their way for that line too, so obviously 'another' drug would leave the field kinda..
Chek: My sneaky suspicion is that the original drug that caused the boss’s predicament was also destroyed in some accident, which is why the Miyanos’ were brought on board to try to remake something like it. My sneaky, sneaky suspicion is that the accident was also a fire, similarly leaving partial documents behind. Haibara was told she would be recreating her parents’ work when in fact data from both drugs was included. Haibara only realized she was part of the ploy later.
Chek: This is a personal theory I believe is consistent with the naming issues and Haibara's angsty thought monologues, not something I can back with hard evidence.
Shadow: I see now,,
Shadow: so basically 'but what they really...' -> is a result of her discovering while she worked that it was something else than what she expected..
c6251555: Well in MT, Shiho said, "Sorry mom...I didn't realize that this kind of drug shouldn't be created" <--- That would align with what Chek said. I don't think Miyano parents' death was an accident, could it be suicide? (Or maybe Vermy was the one who offed them)
Chek: My theory on the Miyano deaths (again a personal theory), is that Elena was related to MI6 by her sister Mary. They wanted out and tried to feign deaths in an accident, only the accident went right and they really died.
Shadow: @Chek in that scenario that brings me to question though how Shiho realized that something didn't fit..
Chek: @Shadow, My guess is that there were clues in the docs themselves such as dif handwriting, something her parents wouldn't do compared with Shiho's birthday recordings
Shadow: so Pisco basically lied to her that she followed her parents drug when he confronted her?
c6251555: Maybe Pisco knew only bits of info about the drug and just automatically assumed that she was doing her parents' drug
Chek: @Shadow, I think Pisco knew what the Miyanos are doing, but not the true purpose of the Org.
Chek: Basically what c6 said.
c6251555: Btw has it been explained why the the cassette for 1 to 5 or 6 year old Shiho was empty?
Shadow: even so, Pisco is convinced the drug goes into the right directions.. it would be unneeded to hide another agenda if the end goal is basically the same..
Chek: It would be needed if the endgoal was a weak point for the boss
Kor: @c6: to fool anyone into thinking the tapes aren't special?
Chek: If someone capable of bringing power and leverage to a point who was not completely trustworthy could correctly deduce the boss's goal from the drug, then they could blackmail the boss.
Shadow: I don't know - as the boss he could just be like 'yosh - I'll have an example.' or send Vermy to get one for him.. that's not suspicious I think..
Shadow: hmmm why would someone want an immortality drug I wonder.. =X
Kor: @c6: sounds neat. Why was everything so cool back then :V
Chek: @Shadow the easy answer would be wealth and power, which would not be an exploitable weakness.
Chek: If pisco were to figure out that the boss has a soft spot, or maybe use it to deduce his identity... there could be problems for the boss
Shadow: ..is what I'm saying yeah.. if he just would answer this - or give this impression.. who shoud suspect a plot for him saving someone?
Chek: @c6, I have a hard time comprehending a goal so evil that also is in character with Gosho.
Shadow: If I start a project for an immortality drug and run a secret, wealthy apparently, organization, would you think I do so to save a lover or would you believe I'm just powerhungry and don't want to die because I like being boss and all.. =P
Shadow: I'd go with the second first of all..
Chek: Exactly.
Kor: Here's my problem. I see you talking about implied relationships and all of these things that for the longest time have really been at the edge of the background of the text, but just earlier we talked over how inept characters are with regards to their frame of work and supposed goals (Amuro, Akai, etc.) - a lot of this stuff being proposed here relies on Gosho truly understanding his own subtext, which for the longest time doesn't seem to be the case.
Chek: @Kor, I'm not overly concerned with that. The most important thing for me is coming up with a theory that doesn't outright contradict anything from the manga or interviews, is reasonably congruous with the actions of the characters, and is in character for Gosho.
Shadow: @Chek yeah, that's where I ask: since Pisco commented on the drug that (according to the theory) would be a development which plans for were swapped or tampered with to go with the boss' agenda and he still comments that it's going in the right direction, doesn't that mean the endgoal of the Miyano drug, the APTX drug and the supposed 'other drug' spiced in by the boss would end at the same point?
Chek: I expect to be wrong, especially with the lack of data. I don't think I will be completely wrong though. i will adjust theories accordingly with time and new information.
Chek: I am just satisfied that new information, since I have first started this theory hasn't contradicted it. That to me suggests I am at least pointed in the right direction.
c6251555: Boss: I just want to save the wonderful drug for myself :V if I let everyone in the BO know, everyone would want it too :V. Wait can someone sum up what is the overall theory now?
Shadow: now if the answer is yes - why is there even need for the 'other drug' ..or how does the other drug actually part in effects of the Miyano/base APTX one..
Chek: @Shadow yes,
Chek: But the drug is a means to an end, not the actual end.
Shadow: without telling them he's using it for a lil' private affair..
Shadow: I'm getting the bit about the boss might having another agenda though.. - I'm just not sure if it would really require such an action if the drug in the end was about rejuv all along..
c6251555: Maybe the end goal is so evil that even the BO agents would oppose to it (it would dispose of them too once their purpose is fulfilled; kinda like how ancient Chinese emperors were buried when they died: the workers who buried him, once they were done, would be slaughtered by another round of ppl, process above repeats until the last round reaches the palace, something like that) :P
Chek: @Shadow the problem is not who he is testing it on (eg Numabuchi) but that a sufficiently intelligent person could be like: "Why does the boss want a drug like this? Oh wait, maybe the boss had this happen, so is someone like this... and has somebody like this"
Chek: That's how I resolve the contradiction between Gosho's interview saying the point of the BO is not immortality or something like that, with the extremely solid manga evidence that the drug is for immortality or something like that.
Chek: The difference is the point of the BO, eg the boss's endgoal, versus the point of the drug, a means to the endgoal.
Chek: I do think the Miyano project and the hypothetical boss project I am proposing were similar, just not exactly the same.
Shadow: I can see all that, that's not the problem - I just fail to see how there would have to be the need for the 'other drug' if APTX would basically do the same thing...
Chek: So in summary my proposal is #1: boss's drug which probably caused Vermouth's problem. --- #2: Silver Bullet: independent work by the Miyanos trying to do something similar to #1. --- #3: APTX 4869: a mix of data from #1 and #2 which people like Pisco think is the same as #2, but now Haibs knows it to include some of #1
Shadow: it's like in a recipe where it says 'take a coffee spoon and rod' the boss went and swapped it in order for it to read 'take a tee spoon and rod'... the end result is the sa,e
Shadow: *tea, same
Chek: I am going to assume the boss did not want Shiho or the other members to know what Shiho was unwittingly really working on, as it might provide clues that the boss did not want leaking.
Shadow: I can imagine that - in fact if Pisco wouldn't have been fotographed I would even assume Vermy ratted out to the boss that Shiho has shrunk and Pisco was aware of it..which then led the boss to phone Gin..
Chek: Eh, I don't the boss would have left Conan and Haibara alone though. That is too many loose ends for someone described as cautious to a fault.
Shadow: it's also convenient that a photographer took a photo when it's dark really - how was ihe even able to aim at Pisco..
Shadow: well, Vermouth was there wasn't she?
Chek: If the boss was described as aggressive or risk taking, I could see the sstimson batman gambit being played, but I trust Vermouth's comment.
Chek: I think Pisco happened to be captured in the frame. If I recall the context was a paparazzi taking pictures of celebrities noshing on eachother.
c6251555: Pisco was just very unfortunate (and careless perhaps, his plan was just too risky)
Shadow: mm.. well regardless.. let's see where the drug plan heads.. whatever she developed.. (I still kinda feel the 'another' was just about 'go on, do the APTX, hurry') but I'll keep my eyes open..
Shadow: my first theory when coming here was in fact too about Bourbon only being a construct..
Chek: My history here was I thought there had to be another non-APTX drug that caused Vermouth to stop aging which caused Vermouth's problem. Said hypothetical drug was attempted to be recreated by the Miyanos.
Chek: When silver bullet was first mentioned in the train case, I was worried because that could have been what vermouth took, but it didn't seem likely when it was still in an experimental stage.
Chek: That's why I was pretty happy to see this recent monologue by Haibara suggesting a drug which transcended her parents' work.
Kor: But Vermouth cursed Ai's parents in ep 345
----
Shadow: @Chek I did a take another approach to the 'another drug' line and perhaps there's even two more ways to gather different context from it:
Shadow: 1) If you go in with the mindset, that Shiho was truly 'approached' by the BO for the first time when they gave her the details of the accident, then you could come to the conclusion that Ai believes they only really approached her for the very reason to create/re-create the drug they've just lost. This makes 'another' also more likely to refer to a recreation of the old one.
Shadow: As an example you could imagine a scenario where you buy a burger from a stand -> then for some reason it ends up on the floor because you drop it or someone bumps into you, whatev. -> you'll tell yourself "damn now I need ANOTHER burger. -> The burger then is the same, just another one you go and buy
Shadow: (this approach assumes that you place the event of the BO telling Ai about the fire around the time when Shiho was not yet on her path to scientist, but perhaps just before that point)
Shadow: 2) Another take on it, which supports the view of the drug being a different kind or a new one altogether can be taken if you assume that events progress as you suggested (the BO high ups sneak in and replace the plans Shiho should work with -> she realizes it as she works) and then Shiho went ahead and flatly ignored the new content she realized has been snuck in and focuses solely on the recreation of whatever her parents drug might have been.
Shadow: curiously it can fit in there quite well: Apparently this drug was her project, perhaps even her project alone, so that means she may have ways to 'fool' the BO by presenting her results in a way it's impossible to tell that she ignored the new formula. -> Through her realizing that the drug she actually should create, Shiho may have also deduced what it's use could be, leaving her with an insight to the true plans not many more might have in the BO (cont.)
Shadow: I guess it would remain debatable if Shiho actually linked the boss/split group from the BO to the swap or if she thought the whole BO just stood behind it - in the end though she found it to be unsafe to reveal it to anyone that there was a swap, perhaps fearing (and correctly so) that spreading that knowledge could make her a target -> This take is supported further on when the HCH case came around:
Shadow: Pisco commented on the drug going the right way, which of course fits in as he goes there with the idea that the drug project is supposed to re-create and further develop the Miyano drug. Vermouth on the other hand, assumingly knowing about the swap, get's a clear view and confirmation that Sherry not only shrank, something Vermouth could link to the parents drug only, but also that she took the knowledge of the swap right with her as she did so...
Shadow: This also serves to explain why the boss is on axes to get rid of Shiho while also offering an explanation as to why Ai oddly at times seems to have insight into the BO that extends her position..
Shadow: ergh - it's all pretty hypothetical of course... -- it'd be nice if a translator could take a look a the 'another drug' part to see if a clear interpretation can be gained from it..
Valentin: 「まあ、私が本当に作らされていたのは… 別の薬なんだけどね…」 means “Well, what I was truly made to create… Was another/different drug…”, although I would like to hear other translators on 別. The word is common, but how exactly is its relation to another and different? Isn’t it rather vague in Japanese?
bash7353: The implication is that it is a different drug. That is the contrast between what is actually true, and what Haibara says to Conan. Haibara is like "I recreated my parents' drug after their death.", but is then thinking "Actually, different drug."
bash7353: Going with Shadow's burger analogy doesn't make contextual sense, because then there'd be no difference between what Haibara says and thinks.
Shadow: what I simply find odd about the idea of there being a third drug is, that in order for that idea to work, either Shiho (like mentioned down there) would have to have realized the trickery they attempted on her and simply went with using her parents version and further develop it, shoving aside the new input (I'm struggling if I would believe Shiho went against their plans on her own - though it has a possibility if she immediately perhaps assumed the BO killed her parents on purpose)
Shadow: -OR-
Shadow: The replaced formula for the third drug differs so little from the one her parents developed that you would have to question if calling it 'another' is actually fitting for it, seeing that Pisco later on comments that what he sees is the result (and expected result it seems) of the Miyano parent's drug...
bash7353: What makes you say there is a third drug?
Shadow: another complaint I'd have goes along with Kor in that it convolutes things even further, though that of course is something Gosho would decide..
Shadow: @bash the 'another drug' would be the third one: there's the Miyano parents drug, APTX from Shiho as a recreation of the former and potentially the third one, as in the one Ai would mean if she thinks about 'another' drug..
Shadow: whether this third drug would've actually ever seen the light of day is up to debate... depending on if Ai actually did it, or didn't do it and merely noticed something..
Shadow: (personally, the way I took the scene was Ai's 'another' was referring to her APTX project - but as you said, when looking at it again more thoroughly (the scene didn't stand out to me much through my impressions) I'd agree it would be odd for her to say and think the same, so I could see where Chek came from when she mentioned there was a completely different drug (planned)..
bash7353: The way I understand it there is just her parents' drug and the different one she made herself. When she tells Conan that she recreated her parents' drug she is lying.
Shadow: I think it really boils down to how the Ai thinking panel is taken, and specifically perhaps where you put the emphasis in the sentence - if you put it on 'really' (what I probably did at first) you end up with her reminiscing a scene where she is convinced that the BO just came to her because they wanted her to quickly resume the drug work, if you put it on 'another' you end up with there being plans for a hypothetical third drug..
Shadow: @bash if you talking about actually existing drugs, then yeah I agree - I think there's only two as well..
Valentin: Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, Shadow, but the original wording makes it clear for me that Haibara actually developed the drug that she mentions there, which is why I don’t see much room for a merely potential drug. From my point of view, the translation What they wanted me … is misleading since 作らされていた indicates that they actually made her doing it. Or am I making a mistake in Japanese?
Shadow: so it's actually 'what they made me do/develop'?
Valentin: I would say that the translation I posted below is closer to the original wording than the one in the English scans. But maybe another translator could comment on this.
Shadow: mm yeah, ideally would also be an accurate translation of what Pisco said..
jimmy_kud0_tv: される form is "to make to do" , but I don't know how て form or past tense changes that (or if it does)
Shadow: he could be taken differently too: if he says 'you could bring their drug this far/I knew about their drug in development [...] bring it to this point/develop it this far', then if Chek is right about the formula being swapped, he either
A) comments on the drug, knowing about the swap but hinting at potential parts that were in line with the Miyano's formula..
B) he comments on the drug, not knowing about the swap and the end results of both formulas are very similar..
Shadow: Alternatively, if he is vague about the drug and knowing about it we could take it that he simply isn't aware of any swap and all and is in the believes what he sees is actually a result of the Miyano drug further developed..
Shadow: *at all
Kor: But nothing guarantees back then Gosho knew of the stuff he'd be adding later down the line so Pisco's lines might not be too helpful in our current status.
Shadow: true I guess, but I hope he considers his old plot files when introducing new content..
Chek: Good stuff, I'm archiving all this discussion by the way. I don't think Haibara lied to Conan here. From other context (Vermouth, other convos, there are quotes on the wiki for reference) it definitely does seem like she and other people thought she was working on her parents' project. Also I disagree with Kor, I think the drug plot was planned since the Pisco/Vermouth stuff - Silver Bullet coming in the Vermouth arc, and now much later seals it for me.
KaitoRizu: the way I understand the drug thing: the BO wanted a certain drug that isn't what the Miyanos made but Haibara didn't make the one the BO wanted, she worked on the one her parents were making (2 drugs only)
KaitoRizu: I don't consider it a complete theory more like speculation but here's what I think about the whole drug thing:
KaitoRizu: the BO wanted the Miyanos to make a certain drug and they started on it but as they worked on it they started thinking that it isn't something that should be made (kinda like what Itakura though about his program) but the research they where making in order to finish the drug led them to discover some new stuff (maybe youth related) and they tried to take their work in that direction and the result was the making of a new drug different from the one the BO wanted
KaitoRizu: and as they worked the BO found out about that and considered it a betrayal and killed Haibara's parents and made it look like an accident (maybe Vermouth herself somehow became a test subject and a victim of it resulting in her finding out, hating them and killing them) and Pisco who was a friend of them knew about the drug they were making (not the one the BO wanted) then the BO raised Shiho as a scientist so she'd make the drug for them but without them knowing she tried to recreate the one
KaitoRizu: her parents worked on.... I hope I didn't mess anything there... some shooting and a couple of close by canons went off and gave me a scare midway through my typing =P
KaitoRizu: and when she ran away then Pisco found out about the shrinking and remembered about her parents and said what he did
KaitoRizu: and there's also... I think MG shrunk 6 years ago considering her current status and that means the remaining pills from Miyanos research where still being used by someone (who isn't Gin.. Rum maybe considering the Kouji murder...)
bash7353: Why do you think Haibara is telling the truth, Chek? I mean aside from the fact her thoughts in that particular panel contradict what she just before says to Conan, this isn't unprecedented. Haibara lied to Conan about those disks way earlier in the series, didn't she?
Chek: @bash, give me a sec to type my thoughts. I might need a few mins
Chek: Her thoughts don't contradict with what she told Conan, at least not how I see it. She says that she based her research on the materials recovered from her parents’ accident, but "they" wanted her to/had her make another drug instead. Those are not incompatible things, recreating something from partial notes and in the process making something else.
Chek: Haibara rarely outrights lies. Mostly she doesn’t say things or says them mysteriously. The things she has definitely lied have not been about the drug per say, but instead she has lied to hide the people behind the drug. The APTX disks she told Conan were destroyed about probably contain similar information to the disk she accidentally left Akemi – which include sponsors and real names of people in the Black Organization.
Chek: That specific information she has tried to keep from Conan, if you recall why she panicked when Conan found out the Nanatsu no ko phone number.
Chek: What Haibara said so far has been compatible with things other characters have said and Haibara’s prior conversations: that she took over her parents’ project. Her drug APTX’s kills are listed on the same list that her parent’ version of APTX (whatever that was called, I am guessing silver bullet). Pisco believed she was developing her parents’ drug. She and her parents’ both worked on a “dream-like drug.” Lastly the circumstances of the monologue in the train case suggest that Haibara was regretting her continuation of the APTX project.
Shadow: @KR an interesting take on the Miyano family... and I partially agree on stuff, especially on the parents realizing what they're doing might be wrong.. and also maybe them having Vermouth be a test subject if she didn't already have her condition back then..
Shadow: When I think about the Miyano's past and put it together, here's how it played out for me:
Shadow: (roughly):~30 years ago, Prof Miyano came up with the idea of creating a drug or a vaccine to an illness/a condition, that at this point is considered 'uncurable'. When he presents to the public how he would want to get to that cure, the public sees it as a mad idea (it could be argued if he already was seen as a 'mad scientist' at this point or if that was the moment it got stuck to him). Whatever it was though, the public refused to back his work.. (too much cost, too unethical, whatevs)
Shadow: Although the public turned him down, one interessant didn't and found his 'mad' ideas quite fascinating ...namely the BO. (I'll leave it up for interpretation at this point if it was the boss because he would have been under a condition already or if the BO simply found the Miyano's ideas interesting in general) -> Atsushi is offered to work for the BO to obtain whatever cure he pursued making and of course he happily agrees ->
Shadow: Somewhere here Elena comes into play (or maybe she was before too? I think it was never stated when exactly they met eachother, just when they married) -> together they start developing Atsushis cure -> then comes the turning point: Either the BO lays pressure on them that they switch their development in a direction the Miyanos don't agree with or the Miyanos themselves start doubting if they do the correct thing ->
Kor: With Gosho's utter refusal to explore the families and past of his vast selection of characters (sans a select few) besides absolute fluff, I'm not sure the areas you are focusing on here will ever be truly revealed besides just a bit of lip service.
Shadow: 25 years ago they visited Doujima, hard to tell if Atsushi and El were already on the run here, but they were under supervision, so perhaps that's a sign they lost some trust of the BO -> Shortly after Shiho's birth the situation starts to escalate -> The Miyanos have made a decision to rebel and stop the drug development, now thinking the drug is too dangerous ->
Shadow: @Kor could be, it's just what I think could've happened..
Shadow: (the tapes left by Elena suggests she knows that they won't be around much longer) -> Obviously, the BO doesn't like it that their lead scientists are refusing their work -OR- Vermouth, having been experimented on and being unhappy with the results -OR even- the Miyanos decided to end themselves along with their research -> In any case they are killed/kill themselves but not without them managing to destroy parts of their work too ->
Shadow: the BO turns to Shiho to resume development of the drug and in order to do so has Shiho become a scientist -> The APTX development starts when Shiho completed her schooling..
Shadow: point I'm not sure about: What was Silver Bullet about or when was it developed? - It's name would make sense to me in that it kills an otherwise overwhelming foe (read: it cures a previously uncurable disease), assuming it is the desired result of Atsushi and Elena and the lab team...
Kor: Not related. I saw like one or two people suggesting maybe Rumi is the one uploading the info of the case online. Thing is, that alone doesn't answer why she appears in front of Conan. Even if the person uploading the info case manages to locate every person who looked it up on the website (put aside that it was probably seen by more than Conan and co), they wouldn't go to Conan, they'd go to Agasa (his house/comp after all)
Kor: Of course it could all just be a coincidence and Rumi, who uploaded the info to the website, just really wanted to do some teaching in an elementary school, and she just happened to meet Conan who happened to see the info on the website (this level of coincidence is sadly possible with Gosho), but such a scenario is undesirable.
Chek: @Kor, I'm glad that theory came up because I have been thinking that is an excellent idea. It explains the name.
Chek: So you can add me to the list of people who thought this might make a lot of sense. She would have been 20 when Kohji was killed, which is in boyfriend age, assuming Kohji was killed in his twenties.
Kor: How does that make sense from a cause and effect standpoint, though?
Chek: Rumi loves Kohji --> They date --> Rumi goes to the tourny --> Kohji killed --> Rumi gathers evidence --> BO supression kicks in --> Investigarion dies because Asaka has vanished --> Rumi super pissed --> Rumi learns how to kick ass and take names --> Changes her own name to draw out killers because veagence --> Reposts information continuously online hoping someone will figure something out --> Current timeline
Kor: Not that. Why does she appear in Conan's classroom?
Chek: Maybe Rumi, like Okiya, Conan, Bourbon, Vermouth, and the BO also appears wherever the name Asaca or a similar crime scene comes up in case useful information appears. Maybe Conan was less than discrete at one of these crime scenes. Maybe the song one. Should do some background panel hunting real quick.
Chek: She followed Conan maybe because Conan appears to know something.... or or or, maybe she looked up Kogoro's IP address with a whois since Conan might have been on Kogoro's wifi when looking at her website.
Chek: To get close to Kogoro she got close to Conan. I really should look.
Chek: (still panel hunting) ... there have been way too many Asaka cases, even the YokoxHigo case was at a restaurant Aska.
Kor: I can't help but feel that any solution that involves "getting close to Conan in order to get close to a person he's close to" just makes the whole becoming a teacher thing pretty convoluted and just unnecessary. Surely you can get close to a person in order to get close to a person without taking such a job. (and this extra step of getting close to Conan first makes this already needlessly complicated)
c6251555: Do you think she wants to get close to Kogoro or Conan actually? I feel like if she wants to get close to Kogoro, there are better ways than approaching Conan first (like approaching Ran also works too, become Kogoro's client). The fact that she chooses to teach in elementary and her comments on Agasa's gadgets make me think she may be more interested in Conan. Also, has Amuro given up on his interest in Conan (or was he ever curious in the first place, he did see his tranquilizer watch though)
c6251555: And Amuro made some comments about Agasa too in scarlet showdown
c6251555: I do agree with Kor that she is most likely from JP police, which could go with what Chek said below too (she's close to Kohji, then he got killed and maybe she decided to join police. Police can be post bachelor in JP)
Kor: off the top of my head, we had this moment http://image.prntscr.com/image/801ca9f9 ... 6fbb2b.png
Kor: How much was that "I'm curious about that kid" and not "I'm curious about that kid for some reason I think he'll lead me to my totally not homoerotic love interest who I want to kill", dunno.
c6251555: Yeah, and there's that moment in Scarlet where he mentions Agasa having made gadgets for MI6 or something. Not to mention Amuro's renewed interest in yanking Okiya's collar
Chek: Nothing in the song one.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby jimmy_kud0_tv2 » August 1st, 2016, 1:45 am

so let me see if I'm following the drug part of the conversation,

The theory seems to follow that the boss either had some drug (lets call that Drug A) or has some issue that requires a drug (which could be related to Vermouth).
The Miyano's may have been creating some other kind of drug (lets call that Drug B) in which is supposed to be a "dream drug".
The boss tried to fund the Drug B and mix in information from his drug in hopes they wouldn't notice and help recreate Drug A.
However eventually the Miyano's notice and their discovery either leads to or causes their deaths.

Then the boss tried to raise Shiho into a drug creating world, mixing the data obtained from her parents,
creating a drug that is neither A or B , but some kind of fusion of both (lets call that Drug C)

In this way, from her perspective she could think "this drug was not made for killing", but at the same time it could be used for that very purpose. So all of the things that she originally thought and stated back in volume 18 are a bit null now that there is the possibility of it being a hybrid drug.

Pisco may have known about Drug B due to his connection to the Miyano's, but might not have known about the boss's intention with the drug. His comment to Haibara about her current results might be more related to the original intent of Drug B rather then the Black Organizations ultimate goal with Drug A.

Since Drug C is a hybrid, taking it could produce two results: death or shrinking depending on currently unknown elements.
It really saddens me to see people continuing to talk about this series as if its dying or that they are losing interest in it. This has been one of my favorite series' since I first heard of it in 2005 and I have never looked back. I really hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby MeiTanteixX » August 1st, 2016, 8:41 am

Nice convo! it was fun, but reeeaaally long, read!

About the drug convo, my thoughts and understanding on that matter basically agrees well with @chek theory, although chek's explains it thoroughly in her own details(regarding the process of adding the BO/Boss' former formula into the Miyano research remains). I just think the whole labeling of a "third drug" is quite unnecessary. The first BO drug's desired effect was intended for the APTX research, meaning that although there's a difference in the making, they are intended to be the same drug(effect-wise), so in the end of things, there are actually two drugs(two different end-goals).

I'm thinking that the remains of the Miyano research were things that both the Silver Bullet and the first "BO/Boss drug"(drug A) needs as a foundation. The only thing you need to do is to simply trick young Shiho into thinking that she is following her parents footstep, when in actuality, she is being tricked into doing the "BO/Boss' drug", with the Miyano research remains as foundation. What prompted the Miyano from leaving their kids to finish the research(as said in the tapes and to Rei) might most likely be the realization of the BO/Boss' true goals(after maybe extra research procedures was presented to them while they were close to their end-goal). Pisco was most likely just amazed that her drug achieved "shrinking"/"longevity" elements that he never saw/heard her parents achieve, meaning that the "shrinking" aspects of her drug was just a step forward to the Miyano end-goal(not necessarily a few inches close to the end-goal).

@chek really nice insight regarding Rumi's character and connection to the plot! It makes a lot of sense and I definitely prefer that over her being another undercover agent(in other words, being completely limited due to having less authority). I can see Gosho pulling off another Eisuke, although it does seem rehashed. Regarding "KogorovsConan", It's kind of blatant that her target is Conan, unless she's completely ignoring Conan's intelligence and is still convinced that Kogoro might know more about "Asaka". She was clearly testing him with the purpose of figuring out his capabilities and possibly if he might be capable of solving the kouji case. Just like how Gin found out about Kogoro's involvement in the soul detective case from the news, she might've taken interest from there and done some Eisuke stuff, leading her to joining school.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
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Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby galadriel75 » August 1st, 2016, 2:20 pm

About the third drug discussion, heres another translation of Ais words: "l really made it, but a different drug"
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Spimer » August 1st, 2016, 3:41 pm

Alright, let's try going by steps with Haibara's wording here.

まあ、私が本当に作らされていたのは… 別の薬なんだけどね…
Maa, watashi ga hontou ni tsukura sareteita no wa... betsu no kusuri nanda kedo ne...
"Well... What I was really ordered to make was... another drug, however..."

The sentence is a wrap up to Haibara's previous talk about Conan regarding APTX: the verb clearly states that she was ordered to create something but that something turns out to actually be a different drug altogether.

What does that mean? Up until that chapter we thought Haibara was forced to develop the APTX her parents had been working on but it's actually not ATPX itself but something else what she was ordered to research/create.

I hope this helped clear things a bit up.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » August 1st, 2016, 6:31 pm

jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:so let me see if I'm following the drug part of the conversation,

The theory seems to follow that the boss either had some drug (lets call that Drug A) or has some issue that requires a drug (which could be related to Vermouth).
The Miyano's may have been creating some other kind of drug (lets call that Drug B) in which is supposed to be a "dream drug".
The boss tried to fund the Drug B and mix in information from his drug in hopes they wouldn't notice and help recreate Drug A.
However eventually the Miyano's notice and their discovery either leads to or causes their deaths.

Then the boss tried to raise Shiho into a drug creating world, mixing the data obtained from her parents,
creating a drug that is neither A or B , but some kind of fusion of both (lets call that Drug C)

In this way, from her perspective she could think "this drug was not made for killing", but at the same time it could be used for that very purpose. So all of the things that she originally thought and stated back in volume 18 are a bit null now that there is the possibility of it being a hybrid drug.

Pisco may have known about Drug B due to his connection to the Miyano's, but might not have known about the boss's intention with the drug. His comment to Haibara about her current results might be more related to the original intent of Drug B rather then the Black Organizations ultimate goal with Drug A.

Since Drug C is a hybrid, taking it could produce two results: death or shrinking depending on currently unknown elements.
I agree with everything you said except the yellow part. I think that killing people was NOT an intended affect of the Miyano Parents' drug (drug B) and Shiho was trying to make it not do that. The evidence for this is that Agasa is calling Atsushi Miyano's ideas unusual and offbeat, not sketchy psycho-killer murderous. In fact, I don't think death was the intended affect of any of the drugs A, B, and C. The BO saw the potential as a murder weapon and hijacked it for that purpose. So I do think everything Haibara said in Volume 18 is still valid.

Moving out of soft storyland and more into hard theoryland, we don't know if Asaka gave Kohji the Miyano parents' APTX-like drug knowing it would kill him because it had been tested and used for that purpose before, or it was just a last ditch attempt to kill him and it worked (and why Asaka had some APTX on him thus needs to be explained). For all we know, Kohji's death could be the incident that gave the BO the idea that killing people with APTX, but the Miyano parents died soon after (note the timing of Kohji's death and the estimated Miyano parents' death are close!!!) and all the APTX burnt up until Shiho made more of it after resurrecting the project. Then the BO diverted some for murdery uses, while telling Shiho to fix it and make it not murdery and more like what her parents' wanted (because that is what the boss wants: a working de-aging drug, not a death one).

I also don't think that the Miyano parents' died by their own drug. My soft storyland idea is that they were trying to get out of the Organization with MI6's help, but that failed and they died for real. (It would explain why they knew they were going away ahead of time, but didn't get the chance to take the kids with.)

Your point about Pisco in this theory is excellent and insightful and something to think about, but I still think Parent Miyanos drug B and Boss/Vermi drug A are supposed to have similar goals. That would be why the Miyanos were recruited by the boss/BO and funded in the first place.

One point I never got to make in the cbox is that we have a lot of fires going on. Shiho's drug lab got torched when she left, the Miyanos' drug lab got torched, and, if she is to be believed, Sharon Vineyard's parents died the day she debuted onscreen. Arson I think is something we should definitely be more alert to as a fandom, which would dovetail nicely with Kogoro's past working in the arson division.

Spimer wrote:Alright, let's try going by steps with Haibara's wording here.

まあ、私が本当に作らされていたのは… 別の薬なんだけどね…
Maa, watashi ga hontou ni tsukura sareteita no wa... betsu no kusuri nanda kedo ne...
"Well... What I was really ordered to make was... another drug, however..."

The sentence is a wrap up to Haibara's previous talk about Conan regarding APTX: the verb clearly states that she was ordered to create something but that something turns out to actually be a different drug altogether.

What does that mean? Up until that chapter we thought Haibara was forced to develop the APTX her parents had been working on but it's actually not ATPX itself but something else what she was ordered to research/create.

I hope this helped clear things a bit up.

A late edit, but something I want to ask for clarity. In the other translation, Haibara expresses a complete thought. "But what they really wanted me to make was another drug." The way you phrased it, something could come after that final however. Does the original Japanese leave the potential for an incomplete thought that cuts off, or is it complete?
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Coolkid » August 1st, 2016, 8:42 pm

So basically you are saying that there are three different drugs : the aptx, the silver bullet and an unknown drug, and that all have most likely the same purpose. I can't not agree with you as regarding the existence of 3 different drugs, since vermouth stopped aging presumably 20 years ago while the sb was created probably 18-17 years ago, so it can't possibly be the same drug vermouth took. But I don't think they have the same goal, as it goes for the unknown one and the sb it may be possible, but the aptx has definitely another purpose, because : Elena referred to the silver bullet as a "dream drug" while Haibara calls the aptx "an useless thing, like the Hina dolls that are important only for Japanese girls" just by those words we can set them apart, but there's something more, in the MT Haibara thinks after remembering her mother words "Sorry mum I didn't know I shouldn't have created this drug" and in that moment she is holding the antidote, she is clearly referring to it, as she adds "but know I have to use the silver bullet..." so the antidote for the aptx is the silver bullet (how does she know? Probably she listened to the other remaining tapes, the ones meant for her 19th and 20th birthday) but If it is so could it be that the aptx was originally meant as an antidote for the silver bullet?! That would also explain what haibara told conan "the information for the drug that I created was mostly taken from the burnt remaining data" while she thought "but in reality what they really wanted me to make was another drug" because she had to create the aptx not the silver bullet, maybe the BO asked her to reverse the formula present in the former data or maybe they really wanted her to make a drug different from the silver bullet and the aptx but we still don't have the evidence to assume this.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » August 1st, 2016, 10:18 pm

Coolkid wrote:But I don't think they have the same goal, as it goes for the unknown one and the sb it may be possible, but the aptx has definitely another purpose, because : Elena referred to the silver bullet as a "dream drug" while Haibara calls the aptx "an useless thing, like the Hina dolls that are important only for Japanese girls" just by those words we can set them apart,
Regardless of what Haibara said, the results speak for themselves. While APTX is mostly useless since it kills most people, a drug that actually deages people certainly isn't entirely useless or narrowly appealing. Besides, we may be seeing a difference of opinion here between Ai and Elena's labmates on the drug. Elena's **labmates** called it a dream-like drug and **they** were getting excited about it. After all the pain and death Shiho has seem as a consequence of her drug, she probably doesn't like the project so much anymore. Elena's own opinion was that Silver Bullet was “terrifying”, which doesn't match with either the "useless" or the "dream-like" opinions.

Coolkid wrote:but there's something more, in the MT Haibara thinks after remembering her mother words "Sorry mum I didn't know I shouldn't have created this drug" and in that moment she is holding the antidote, she is clearly referring to it, as she adds "but know I have to use the silver bullet..."
... uh, I think you are mixing up the tape and Haibara's lines in your memory. You should reread Chapter 821 pgs 7-8. Haibara never said anything about using Silver Bullet. She said she was sorry she didn't realize "the drug" (the antidote OR APTX, you decide from the context) should not have been made, but she had to depend on "the drug" (the antidote OR APTX, you decide from the context) in order to keep the others from getting involved.
Haibara doesn't have any APTX samples that we know of, assuming she lacks the ability to recreate the drug from scratch, so blank number 2 can't be APTX. Also since her plan was to use the antidote and commit suicide by BO as an adult, blank number 2 is almost certainly the antidote. That means there are now 2 ways to parse the convo, depending on how you fill in blank one.
If you fill in the first blank with the antidote, that means Ai doesn't think the antidote should have been made. That isn't a position which makes a whole lot of sense at first because Shinichi needs that antidote to become an adult again, and Haibara has been willingly helping him and giving him samples so far. Maybe you could take the quote as she regrets showing Shinichi a ray of hope but then permanently crushing his dreams by leaving the antidote unfinished.
The second parse, which I think makes more sense, is APTX for blank #1. She regrets making APTX, but now has to use the antidote to keep the others from being involved. This is what I believe to be the true version of the quote because it fits best with the other facts we have, which are the situation, and the tapes, and Haibara's other quotes, etc.

Keep in mind this whole mess is one of Gosho's deliberately vague bullshit quotes designed to confuse. The best method I have found for dealing with them is to simply look at what characters do and then decide what the quote should mean to be consistent with that. It doesn't make sense for Haibara to hate the antidote because it simply hasn't been around that long, and she hasn’t otherwise shown any angst using them on Shinichi for his get-back-with-Ran schemes. On the other hand we know Ai has an incredible amount of baggage related to APTX, including her non-existent first childhood, her artificial second childhood, her sister's death, a bunch of murders, and probably her parents' deaths.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby MeiTanteixX » August 2nd, 2016, 4:20 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:If you fill in the first blank with the antidote, that means Ai doesn't think the antidote should have been made. That isn't a position which makes a whole lot of sense at first because Shinichi needs that antidote to become an adult again, and Haibara has been willingly helping him and giving him samples so far. Maybe you could take the quote as she regrets showing Shinichi a ray of hope but then permanently crushing his dreams by leaving the antidote unfinished.
The second parse, which I think makes more sense, is APTX for blank #1. She regrets making APTX, but now has to use the antidote to keep the others from being involved. This is what I believe to be the true version of the quote because it fits best with the other facts we have, which are the situation, and the tapes, and Haibara's other quotes, etc.

If we go back to theoryland again, that first blank with the antidote could still hold some potential. It seems just really weird that Gosho would make two sentences(with two blanks) that flows awfully well together (as if the two blanks are referring to the same thing). If the antidote was the true goal of the Boss ("reverse-de-aging"/"growth-rushing" drug), and Haibara actually succeeded in creating a prototype of the drug the BO sought, than maybe it could make sense to the way her lines was structured. She was regretting the fact that she created the prototype with the help of the disk(from the Pisco case) and the components of Paikaru(chinese liquor) for shinichi's sake, before listening to the tape and realizing what her mother went through in order to not let the BO use the Miyano research to create that very same "antidote". Although it may seem as a stretch, I'll still consider this possibility, since it supports my theory...but...my first interpretation is that the first blank was APTX, and the second was The APTX antidote...
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby jimmy_kud0_tv2 » August 4th, 2016, 4:17 pm

In terms of recent (and only recent) plot developments and ongoing story events, is there anything else happening besides the below list of things? I'm thinking about making a list of confirmed facts for each topic. For now I'm excluding things like "DB trio info" and "Yamamura vs Youkai" since not much happens on those fronts.

Rum descriptions
APTX and other drugs + APTX list
Haneda Kohji, Amanda Hughes, and Asaka
Akai father and why Shuuichi joined the FBI
Wakasa Rumi
Furuya Rei and the PSB
Bourbon, Scotch, Rye
Kuroda and the NPA
Masumi and Mary + flashback
Akai Family Middle Brother
Momiji Ooka and Heiji
Heiji confessing to Kazuha
Ran confessing to Shinichi
Ran recognizing Vermouth's voice
Chiba recognizing Naeko
Naeko confessing to Chiba and vise versa
Shuukichi and Yumi relationship
Shuukichi and the shogi titles
Sakurako noticing Conan's intelligence
It really saddens me to see people continuing to talk about this series as if its dying or that they are losing interest in it. This has been one of my favorite series' since I first heard of it in 2005 and I have never looked back. I really hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby MeiTanteixX » August 4th, 2016, 7:55 pm

jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:In terms of recent (and only recent) plot developments and ongoing story events, is there anything else happening besides the below list of things? I'm thinking about making a list of confirmed facts for each topic. For now I'm excluding things like "DB trio info" and "Yamamura vs Youkai" since not much happens on those fronts.

Rum descriptions
APTX and other drugs + APTX list
Haneda Kohji, Amanda Hughes, and Asaka
Akai father and why Shuuichi joined the FBI
Wakasa Rumi
Furuya Rei and the PSB
Bourbon, Scotch, Rye
Kuroda and the NPA
Masumi and Mary + flashback
Akai Family Middle Brother
Momiji Ooka and Heiji
Heiji confessing to Kazuha
Ran confessing to Shinichi
Ran recognizing Vermouth's voice
Chiba recognizing Naeko
Naeko confessing to Chiba and vise versa
Shuukichi and Yumi relationship
Shuukichi and the shogi titles
Sakurako noticing Conan's intelligence

I wouldn't really put this in the list, considering it's neither a "recent plot development" or an implied "ongoing story event"!
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby jimmy_kud0_tv2 » August 4th, 2016, 8:24 pm

MeiTanteixX wrote:
jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Sakurako noticing Conan's intelligence

I wouldn't really put this in the list, considering it's neither a "recent plot development" or an implied "ongoing story event"!


I stuck it on there because she has reappeared in the current arc. Her connection to the Chiba-Naeko relationship is the only other thing going for her at the moment, that's why I put it at the bottom.
It really saddens me to see people continuing to talk about this series as if its dying or that they are losing interest in it. This has been one of my favorite series' since I first heard of it in 2005 and I have never looked back. I really hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » August 6th, 2016, 5:28 pm

@jimmy I'll have to think about it. Nothing stood out immediately

----------------------

Well, I did something useful for once; I leveraged the power of statistics to figure out how to spot characters who have only one working eye and are trying to hide it. Using Kansuke as my model and Koumei and Conan as controls, I was able to preliminarily identify the traits of one-eyed characters by simply counting the number of panels where they turn their heads and look a certain way. I then applied the results to Rumi, Kuroda, and Sakurako Yonehara. Kuroda has too few points to go off of, but an interesting lack of head turning. Rumi appears to have two working eyes, but there is not enough data to tell for sure. Sakurako was much more definitive: two working eyes and an honest disposition that avoids sideyeing characters. From now on, any new character who appears for 2-3+ cases will not be able to hide from the powers of math.

You can see the results and more Rum hunting tips here: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki ... fin/Vision
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby wrd » August 12th, 2016, 1:19 pm

So there is a speculation circling around, about a possible mention of a certain Furuya Masaaki 降谷正晃 in the mermaid case guestbook,
https://www.facebook.com/DCTheRedThread ... 06/?type=3

Out of curiousity I went and tried a comparision for that name and surname between the anime version and manga version of the guestbook,
Spoiler:
Image

aaaand I was stuck and couldn't figure out what was written in the anime ver :-X .

Regardless of this speculation..
Can anyone enlighten me on the possible readings for the surname in the anime version?
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