Chekhov's theories about the plot

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Firefox
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Firefox » August 16th, 2016, 8:49 pm

wrd wrote:So there is a speculation circling around, about a possible mention of a certain Furuya Masaaki 降谷正晃 in the mermaid case guestbook,
https://www.facebook.com/DCTheRedThread ... 06/?type=3

Out of curiousity I went and tried a comparision for that name and surname between the anime version and manga version of the guestbook,
Spoiler:
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aaaand I was stuck and couldn't figure out what was written in the anime ver :-X .

Regardless of this speculation..
Can anyone enlighten me on the possible readings for the surname in the anime version?


The name in the anime version is 中谷 正晃.
Valentin
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Valentin » August 17th, 2016, 7:54 am

Firefox wrote:
wrd wrote:The name in the anime version is 中谷 正晃.

To me, the surname in the anime version rather looks like 中方, which could be pronounced Nakakata.
MeiTanteixX
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby MeiTanteixX » August 17th, 2016, 9:18 am

Valentin wrote:
Firefox wrote:
wrd wrote:The name in the anime version is 中谷 正晃.

To me, the surname in the anime version rather looks like 中方, which could be pronounced Nakakata.

yeah, yours looks more similar...
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jimmy_kud0_tv2
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby jimmy_kud0_tv2 » August 19th, 2016, 9:47 pm

Here, have a high quality thing

Image

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I hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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Firefox
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Firefox » August 19th, 2016, 9:56 pm

Valentin wrote:
Firefox wrote:
wrd wrote:The name in the anime version is 中谷 正晃.

To me, the surname in the anime version rather looks like 中方, which could be pronounced Nakakata.


I changed the picture to grayscale and adjusted the brightness level to make it clearer, then I colored each part of the Kanji. Hope you see it being now. The little triangle-like thing at the bottom is actually as it's written fast and pictured with a bad resolution. As I'm Chinese, identifying such handwriting Kanji is actually not a problem. ;D
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The family name 中谷 (Hiragana:なかたに) is pronounced as Nakatani.

If the TV producers had changed such a Kanji from the manga when they did the TV anime, I would think there should be a certain reason that we may look into. Yet it seems that they kept it the original.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby KaitoRizu » August 20th, 2016, 4:46 am

jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Here, have a high quality thing

Image

Image

Now it looks more and more like a girl to me...
Thanks for the SS Kamite! ;D
Spoiler:
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » August 20th, 2016, 4:53 am

KaitoRizu wrote:
jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Here, have a high quality thing

Image

Image

Now it looks more and more like a girl to me...


I know, right?
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby k11chi » August 20th, 2016, 5:51 am

Was it ever confirmed that Vermouth was the woman with the cat in Itakuras diary?
Also that friend of Itakura hmm...
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Valentin
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Valentin » August 20th, 2016, 6:37 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
KaitoRizu wrote:Now it looks more and more like a girl to me...
I know, right?

I’m far from having any substantial idea about hand structures of men and women and their differences, but the first notion that stroke me upon seeing the high resolution version was that Asaka’s index finger seems to be visibly shorter than their ring finger even after putting them into perspective.

Image

The sizes may, of course, vary with each person (see pseudoscientific articles proclaiming correlations between the lenghts of a man’s index finger, his ring finger and his penis), and who knows how Aoyama intentionally incorporated this—or not. I only thought that this might be something like the little sister of a hint in a picture that doesn’t seem to deliver anything useful.

(I apologize if this has already been mentioned. At least I can’t remember that it was.)
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » August 20th, 2016, 7:51 am

Valentin wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
KaitoRizu wrote:Now it looks more and more like a girl to me...
I know, right?

I’m far from having any substantial idea about hand structures of men and women and their differences, but the first notion that stroke me upon seeing the high resolution version was that Asaka’s index finger seems to be visibly shorter than their ring finger even after putting them into perspective.

Image

The sizes may, of course, vary with each person (see pseudoscientific articles proclaiming correlations between the lenghts of a man’s index finger, his ring finger and his penis), and who knows how Aoyama intentionally incorporated this—or not. I only thought that this might be something like the little sister of a hint in a picture that doesn’t seem to deliver anything useful.

(I apologize if this has already been mentioned. At least I can’t remember that it was.)


In that case, someone should take a look at Rumi's and Mary's index and ring fingers (of their right hands, specifically).
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby AMY 99 » August 20th, 2016, 8:28 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Valentin wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
KaitoRizu wrote:Now it looks more and more like a girl to me...
I know, right?

I’m far from having any substantial idea about hand structures of men and women and their differences, but the first notion that stroke me upon seeing the high resolution version was that Asaka’s index finger seems to be visibly shorter than their ring finger even after putting them into perspective.

Image

The sizes may, of course, vary with each person (see pseudoscientific articles proclaiming correlations between the lenghts of a man’s index finger, his ring finger and his penis), and who knows how Aoyama intentionally incorporated this—or not. I only thought that this might be something like the little sister of a hint in a picture that doesn’t seem to deliver anything useful.

(I apologize if this has already been mentioned. At least I can’t remember that it was.)


In that case, someone should take a look at Rumi's and Mary's index and ring fingers (of their right hands, specifically).

this is rumi right hand , i hope that it would help , and i will try to find mary's right hand
Image
KaitoRizu
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby KaitoRizu » August 20th, 2016, 4:35 pm

Valentin wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
KaitoRizu wrote:Now it looks more and more like a girl to me...
I know, right?

I’m far from having any substantial idea about hand structures of men and women and their differences, but the first notion that stroke me upon seeing the high resolution version was that Asaka’s index finger seems to be visibly shorter than their ring finger even after putting them into perspective.

Image

The sizes may, of course, vary with each person (see pseudoscientific articles proclaiming correlations between the lenghts of a man’s index finger, his ring finger and his penis), and who knows how Aoyama intentionally incorporated this—or not. I only thought that this might be something like the little sister of a hint in a picture that doesn’t seem to deliver anything useful.

(I apologize if this has already been mentioned. At least I can’t remember that it was.)

Just like you said the finger length may vary.. the Kid heist when the comparison of finger lengths happened had Ran looking at her fingers at the end and from what I understood at least she said that it's different from Sonoko's shorter ring finger.. so it's hard to decide on the gender from the fingers...

When I said that Asaka looks like a girl I was looking at Asaka's body line, the way the curve is drawn under the hand gives me an impression of a woman's chest and anything other than that (like the shoulders, neck, chin and the length of the arms) are drawn in the way a female is usually drawn, however I won't take anything other than the chest area into consideration since it's possible for Asaka to be a thin man.. even though considering Asaka is supposed to be a bodyguard.. I imagine a male bodyguard not to be that thin..
Thanks for the SS Kamite! ;D
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cchanged
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby cchanged » August 20th, 2016, 4:45 pm

I find it perplexing that no one knows Asaca's gender, as Asaca was a bodyguard of someone as rich and powerful as Amanda. Don't the rich usually have a cohort of security personnel? Did the BO manage to wipe all of them out? :x And why would Amanda use someone she didn't fully know (or even if she did, how come no one else knew about Asaca)? Or was Asaca's identity hijacked? Even then the original Asaca's gender should be known.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Serinox » August 20th, 2016, 6:09 pm

cchanged wrote:I find it perplexing that no one knows Asaca's gender, as Asaca was a bodyguard of someone as rich and powerful as Amanda. Don't the rich usually have a cohort of security personnel? Did the BO manage to wipe all of them out? :x And why would Amanda use someone she didn't fully know (or even if she did, how come no one else knew about Asaca)? Or was Asaca's identity hijacked? Even then the original Asaca's gender should be known.

Nobody of Amanda's relatives and acquaintances knew who Asaka was or how Asaka came to be Amanda's bodyguard; Asaka was probably an agent from the FBI or the CIA, to whom Amanda had contact, for some reason. Maybe either of these agencies had reasons to believe that Amanda's regular security personnel was compromised (perhaps there were already hints that Amanda would become a target of the BO), and she agreed to replace them for an agent (if the Asaka in hotel killed Amanda and was Rum, then either Rum replaced Asaka before taking the job or Rum had already infiltrated either the CIA or the FBI and had put himself up for the job that way).

Maybe the gender was hard to tell? I mean, if Hotta didn't just pull the "Asaka is a woman" thing out of his ass (which he might've, since the guy was a massive fraud), there must've been rumours about it floating around somewhere, right?
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby cchanged » August 21st, 2016, 1:26 am

Serinox wrote:Nobody of Amanda's relatives and acquaintances knew who Asaka was or how Asaka came to be Amanda's bodyguard; Asaka was probably an agent from the FBI or the CIA, to whom Amanda had contact, for some reason. Maybe either of these agencies had reasons to believe that Amanda's regular security personnel was compromised (perhaps there were already hints that Amanda would become a target of the BO), and she agreed to replace them for an agent (if the Asaka in hotel killed Amanda and was Rum, then either Rum replaced Asaka before taking the job or Rum had already infiltrated either the CIA or the FBI and had put himself up for the job that way).

Maybe the gender was hard to tell? I mean, if Hotta didn't just pull the "Asaka is a woman" thing out of his ass (which he might've, since the guy was a massive fraud), there must've been rumours about it floating around somewhere, right?


I really like your idea that Asaca was actually an intelligence agency's agent. That could explain most, if not all, of the issues I raised, especially why Amanda would let Asaca be her bodyguard and why Asaca's gender was not known (because no one besides Amanda knew Asaca). There are quite a few interesting possibilities that can go from there (well I only thought of two like you). One, Asaca, who is also Rum, is a BO agent who was in an intelligence agency and used his/her job to approach and kill Amanda. Two, Rum disguised as Asaca (who's a member of an intelligence agency) to kill Amanda. He also killed the real Asaca to fully takeover Asaca's identity (like how Vermy planned to kill Araide), which could explain why Asaca disappeared after the murder better than possibility one because in one Asaca was assumed to not have used a disguise and it would be more difficult to completely avoid someone from recognizing him/her, unless he/she got a plastic surgery or hid at somewhere remote. But I see a weakness with possibility two: why would BO care so much about Asaca if he/she was only a hijacked identity?

Btw, I was thinking about how disguises might still be limited by height and build in DC (okay I know movies aren't canon but in m13 Irish disguised as Matsumoto and both Irish and Matsumoto are very tall and have very wide shoulders. Also, in file 936 page 4, you can see that the real Azusa is around the same height as Sonoko, but in file 954 page 12, you can see the Vermy Azusa as noticeably taller than both Ran and Sonoko). Is Gosho usually consistent with his characters' height? So I was thinking that if Asaca is indeed Rum, then Rum has a slender built and long hair sometimes so he can easily disguise as either gender (and thus the being feminine part of Rum's description is a physical characteristic). If Rum's femininity is not displayed in physical appearance but instead in something else like physical movements and speech patterns, then it will be much harder to detect. Especially speech patterns may get lost in translation (I recall reading file 259, a file in desperate revival, and wondering if Shinichi was merely joking or if there were real differences in speech patterns ie the more polite form in the raw version when he told Haibara that it is disgusting of her to use Conan's voice and speak in a girly manner. There is no distinction between male and female speech in my language).

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