Chekhov's theories about the plot

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
mtcc
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby mtcc » October 8th, 2017, 8:55 am

hello it semes adoptive father yusuharu haneda for shukichi

the name from shogi player yusuharu oyama
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Spimer » October 8th, 2017, 4:25 pm

Do you have a source for that? Information without sources isn't trustable.
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mtcc
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby mtcc » October 8th, 2017, 5:09 pm

Spimer wrote:Do you have a source for that? Information without sources isn't trustable.

from japanese site
http://conan-4869.net/post-18045/7
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Spimer » October 8th, 2017, 5:51 pm

I see. Well, apparently those names were in the design materials for the marriage form which was a bonus that came with the "Ripples namenote" which was a gift to 1,000 people that came with the Shonen Sunday, apparently, and contains explanations by Gosho of how he designed the "Ripples case" plus many sketches of the case.

If we assume the information is valid (it wouldn't be the first time things have been explained outside of the manga) then we have:

羽田康晴 (Haneda Yasuharu) [Father]
羽田市代 (Haneda Ichiyo) [Mother]

Like mtcc says, the names are derived from other famed Shogi players:
大山康晴 (Ooyama Yasuharu)
清水市代 (Shimizu Ichiyo)

We'll have to wait and see if this information will be mentioned in the manga itself or will become relevant in the future.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby jimmy_kud0_tv2 » October 9th, 2017, 8:44 pm

Spimer wrote:I see. Well, apparently those names were in the design materials for the marriage form which was a bonus that came with the "Ripples namenote" which was a gift to 1,000 people that came with the Shonen Sunday, apparently, and contains explanations by Gosho of how he designed the "Ripples case" plus many sketches of the case.

If we assume the information is valid (it wouldn't be the first time things have been explained outside of the manga) then we have:

羽田康晴 (Haneda Yasuharu) [Father]
羽田市代 (Haneda Ichiyo) [Mother]

Like mtcc says, the names are derived from other famed Shogi players:
大山康晴 (Ooyama Yasuharu)
清水市代 (Shimizu Ichiyo)

We'll have to wait and see if this information will be mentioned in the manga itself or will become relevant in the future.

Name seems to check out against File 945 Page 13

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It really saddens me to see people continuing to talk about this series as if its dying or that they are losing interest in it. This has been one of my favorite series' since I first heard of it in 2005 and I have never looked back. I really hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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Kokuriko
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Kokuriko » October 14th, 2017, 12:39 pm

In a different thread K.O.R.N mentioned making a list of 80 mysteries here: https://anotepad.com/notes/hkjph5
I'd like to share some of my thoughts regarding Questions No.10,21,23,26,33,38,53,58,65,72,80. Please excuse my English; I'm not a native speaker.
Spoiler:
21. Who is Asaka?
I think Rumi is the real Asaka, as in "Amanda's real bodyguard". The Asaka appeared in the case 17 years ago might be Rum in disguise. Gin said something like Rum made a mess of that case, which implied that there were unexpected events (perhaps a survivor)
23. Bourbon's family background
This is intriguing given 1000+ chapters dealing with other major characters and their backgrounds, Gosho is still being vague about him. For one thing, Gosho tends to depict him as another Sherlock Holmes beside Conan, even more than Akai.
⦁ Gin's remark in File 704 "...one who you wish only existed in novels. A detective like Sherlock Holmes." (source: the fandom wiki)
⦁ Rei's specialty is boxing, just like Sherlock Holmes.
⦁ Date's comment in File 807 that both Rei & Takagi are gentlemen. Sherlock Holmes is also a gentleman detective.
⦁ His connection with Elena Miyano, whose namesake was taken from Irene Adler.
I admit I like him more than Akai, because of the comments on his character from the others. The Bo members noted that he's secretive, likes to do what he pleases; Date's comment implied he had a tendency to overestimate his abilities; and as a kid he got involved in fights a lot. But Akai's remark implied Rei could play fair unless it was a matter of personal issues.
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It isn't like Akai or Akai papa killed his family or something, right ?
At this point I wonder which will come first : Ran's birthday or Rei's past reveal. Maybe we will get some more info in M22.
26. The Miyano parents' fate
The thing is, Elena's message to Haibara bugs me. At one point Elena stated that both of them needed to leave their children to complete their research. I don't quite get what she meant. If they were actually busy going off places to gather info for their research then I wouldn't find that weird. It's clear that both Akemi and Haibara's birthplace is Japan given their real names, so I wonder if "leaving" was being used literally. Furthermore, Haibara believes the event of their death was an accident, but a part of me still think it was intentional.
10. Boss' background
33. BO's headquarters

I'm not confident about the HQ's location, but from details like the boss's number using the Nanatsu No Ko song and being related to the regional code of Tottori and the naming "4869" it's safe to assume that the boss's hometown is in Tottori prefecture. Another thing, I find it weird that Kusuda Rikumichi, a low-ranked BO member (without a codename) actually knew the boss's number.
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Even Akai asked Rei to investigate the original distribution of his gun in File 897, which I guess was the real intention of his reappearance. I expect we will get some result by the end of Rum arc.
38. Why does Gin always think of naked Shiho?
I remember there is a rare exception, when Gin asked Mori through the tracking device about his relationship with Shiho, that Gosho drew her fully clothed. Who knows, maybe it was his own idea, or his editor's. Imagine the conversation :
Editor-san: Hey why did you draw my waifu naked in this bastard's head?
Gosho: I don't know, just my idea of a dangerous criminal with some sick mentality.
Editor-san: Oh okay.

Meanwhile, there's a Haibara-to-Ran example :
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53. Should we still trust Haibara's BO aura sense these days?
After the Cherry Blossom viewing case ? Not really. It seems that the reason Haibara couldn't sense Numabuchi (Files 358-360) and Vermouth (Files 850-852) was because in both cases the BO members didn't have the particular "hunting" aura. She couldn't pinpoint Pisco and Rei's aura but it doesn't matter now. Side-note: Akai apparently can switch "hunting mode" on/off as well.
58. Is Rei investigating Agasa?
IIRC, for about 200+ chapters since Rei's first debut, not even once has he met Prof. Agasa face-to-face unlike Subaru and Sera, even though he did express some interest to meet him in the past. After the Bell Tree case, he even passed the chance to visit Prof. Agasa's house twice. I think Rei deliberately avoids meeting him. It's possible that Prof. Agasa did meet him in the past and Rei doesn't want Vermouth to find out through the wiretap he had on him.
65. Shukichi's role in the plot
At the moment his notable factors are : shogi and being the step-brother of Haneda Kouji, who was involved in Rum's messy case 17 years ago. Itakura the programmer was also a shogi player. I think Gosho will reveal more about Haneda through him in the future.
72. Does Haneda Kouji really know who Rum is?
- Haneda Kouji's message is a puzzle piece in this case. How did Haneda acquire the knowledge of the word "RUM" ? All the BO agents we've seen are a bunch of sneaky bastards. It's hard to imagine a high-ranked BO agent like Rum willing to divulge his name to a mere shogi player. Was that name mentioned by Amanda Hughes ? Or by the real Asaka ? Was the message truly from Haneda ? I guess this is a part of the whole big puzzle (the Rum arc).
80. Is there more than one BO boss?
This caught me off-guard, but it's possible.


I also got some doubts regarding a few cases, so I hope you guys would help me clarify.
Spoiler:
- The timing of Kuroda's appearance after Rei being officially revealed as an NPA undercover. For now I support the theory that Kuroda Hyoue was an important member of the NPA - National Police Agency and possibly Rei's former boss, as opposed to Scotch, who was a member of the PSB - Public Security Bureau. According to Wikipedia, the Japanese NPA works alongside the PSB, but it does have regional branches including Nagano prefecture. Consider the following : During his investigation of Tsutomu and/or the Haneda Kouji case, Kuroda assigned Rei a leading position in Security Planning Division but an accident happened, which explains these details:
+ His MIA status
+ Rei's ability to assemble two squads assisting him in his mission
+ His knowledge of Conan - the secret behind "Sleeping Kogoro"

- The lack of details regarding Haneda Kouji's corpse. Up until now he's the first dead-confirmed victim of APTX 4869 the poison whose case is exposed to the readers. Some speculate that APTX 4869 has reproductive potential and/or can affect the life span of human cells, but the manga doesn't provide clear examples. I'm mainly concerned about how APTX 4869 the poison, having de-aging characteristics, manages to kill its victims without a trace.

- Based on what we got from Sera's memory and what we knew about the BO in general, was Scotch Akai's partner ?
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Most BO members during a mission work in pair, and judging from Sera's memory in File 937 it looks like Scotch and Akai were armed in advance. Then it might justify Rei's deep-rooted hatred for Akai, with him being a factor leading to the death of Rei's acquaintances (Scotch and Akemi)

- What is Gosho's aim, keeping Akemi's postscript a secret at this point ? Is it a big spoiler ? Did he forget it ? Lots of things have been cleared up since the Kir arc, like Akai's current status and Mary-Elena relationship but the content of what seemingly a casual text message hasn't. Is 'Protecting my sister' not the true message ?

- Does Rei actually believe in Sherry's death ? Some thought the case files 997-999 are filler-qualitied, I agree because of Rei's seemingly out-of-character enthusiasm in helping the search (by taking advantage of his rank) and this particular exchange :
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It takes one to know one, or I just simply think too hard.

- Is finding the antidote the real final goal of Masumi & Mary ?
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Based on this exchange in File 1005, I consider their final objective is finding the way to get back Mary's original form, and Sera getting involved with Conan is just another on-the-side errand, similar to her finding more about Akai's death. It's also a possibility that they obtained the list of APTX victims like Rumi through the same mean, and it related to the case 17 years ago AND Tsutomu's disappearance.
K.O.R.N
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby K.O.R.N » October 14th, 2017, 12:40 pm

My new collection, from the newest plot points, of the mysteries in the series that have not been answered clearly. In this list, there are 90 mysteries total: https://anotepad.com/notes/hkjph5
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S.Vineyard
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby S.Vineyard » October 14th, 2017, 12:50 pm

As said in the other topic:

Good Thoughts. :)

Some replies of mine.

21)
Spoiler:
Currently, Rumi being Asaka, has really high probability. Kuroda.... I wonder if he might be Daddy Akai afterall. Gosho really likes forth wall jokes, it this smells a a bit like a Scar Akai reference.

26)
Spoiler:
I also don't think that the Miyanos death was an accident. The Prime Candidate as a possible murder is imo still Vermouth, since "their stupid research" is also her main motivation to kill Ai.

33)
Spoiler:
Wasn't the Tottori thing debunked by Gosho in an interview?

38) Yeah, it's imo. some kinda of purity symbolism.
53) Agree.
58) Hm.... that's really a good observation. Remember, that Agasa actually once met Atsushi Miyano....

Akemi's postscript: It took him years to finally reveal Elena's "secret" tape message to the audience, so he is probatly really saving it.

Masumi/Mary: I gave some thoughts to this a few days ago ago.

Also, this thought actually just came to me: Mary actually feels a lot of a "Haibara in control", since her paranoia feels a lot like early day Ai.

Ran's Birthday or Rei past:

Imo. the later.

Already said it in the Ran's suspicion topic, that I think that her birthday is saved for that.

Rei could theoreticly be unfolded if he get's involved in the current Akai Family drama, which is imo. very likely.
Last edited by S.Vineyard on October 15th, 2017, 4:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
K.O.R.N
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby K.O.R.N » October 14th, 2017, 1:06 pm

No, Tottori is not their HQ anymore. Yes, it has been denied by Gosho. I am thinking of Nagoya. If I remember correctly, Gin and Vodka were on the train to Nagoya in the Shinkansen Bombing case, and they were waiting at Nagoya train station for Vermouth and Bourbon to get out and turn Shiho in.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 15th, 2017, 2:00 am

Nice thoughts, but currently only three questions are bugging me most.
1) What does "U MASCARA" indicate?(It's very unlikely of Haneda to know about Rum's BO codename. If Rum really was Asaka, then only the Asaka part would make sense. Any argument which states that Kohji wanted to give as much information as possible fails to explain that how Kohji got to know that Rum's codename was "Rum"? Also Kohji had a time constraint, why would he waste his time in writing an alias which yields no result other than confuse the true message. AS Rum=Asaca interpretation lacks an equals to, in the message. It's highly unlikely that Rum would announce his codename to Kohji. Infact if we assume Rum was unknown to Kohji, then Kohji's killing makes no sense. As Kohji was killed in his own room. Amanda was killed in her own room. Amanda's room is a perfectly cleaned up room. So Kohji meddling in Amanda's murder makes no sense at all. Kohji's messy room and lack of clean-up means it was unplanned and botched up.So why Rum wanted to kill Kohji in first place, but all makes sense if Rum's social persona was known to Kohji and Rum had to kill Kohji as else Kohji would have mentioned that he saw "Rum" around Amanda's room. And as Kohji knew Rum's social name he left a dying message??.)

2) Why Rumi lacks depth perception?(One thought says she's blind in one eye, another says she's using high powered glasses thus making her partially blind. But during hand-to-hand combat scenarios it's seen Rumi faces no problems, but she feels the heat when she has to do a depth perception calculation. If that was powered glass capable of blurring Rumi's depth perception, by now she would have rolled down from the stairs. So she is partially blind in one eye?)

3) Why Kuroda did a shitty job with his hair?(The theory that Kuroda is switched fails miserably to explain this. If somebody switched with Kuroda he has to let go of half of his face and possible one eye to mimic his appearance. The second issue is more serious in nature, if that person went for skin grafts and faked a prosthetic eye why the same person did a shitty job with his hair colour ? Why the same person didn't get a plastic surgery ? Kuroda's hair turning white in Coma due to stress makes no sense, but makes sense if Kuroda originally dyed his hair black.)

4) Why Wakita was eager to show Conan is infected left eye?(According to proper translation, Wakita is suffering from a stye in his eye and that's why he's using the medical gauze. But showing it around might impede the healing.)
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby K.O.R.N » October 15th, 2017, 10:02 am

For number 4 I'd like to see the source of that translation. And again since now we know Wakita is more dangerous, he could be bluffing that his eye is healing while having a prosthetic eye (Rum). For number 2, for Rumi's eye condition, I do think she does have some eye problems, but I feel like this is a result of the fight she put up against Rum 17 years ago as Asaka. Thus, a blow to the face from Rum, hitting close to her eye can hurt a lot and might have affected her vision, leading to her distraction in that Burning Tent case.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Spimer » October 15th, 2017, 3:02 pm

Hum, no? Wakita says:

"ひでえでき物ができちまったよー" --> "hidee dekimon ga dekichimatta yoo" --> "I got a terrible boil, see"

Translation by dictionary:
出来物 (できもの) "dekimono"
. blotch
. skin boil
. rash
. swelling
. blister
. pimple
. tumor
. abscess

So I don't know where you got that of the "stye" because I'm sure I never used that word.
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Kokuriko
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Kokuriko » October 15th, 2017, 3:25 pm

S.Vineyard wrote:33) Wasn't the Tottori thing debunked by Gosho in an interview?


K.O.R.N wrote:No, Tottori is not their HQ anymore. Yes, it has been denied by Gosho. I am thinking of Nagoya. If I remember correctly, Gin and Vodka were on the train to Nagoya in the Shinkansen Bombing case, and they were waiting at Nagoya train station for Vermouth and Bourbon to get out and turn Shiho in.


I see. Then again, I haven't seen the translation of that interview so would anyone please provide a link ? I still have doubts, partly because Gosho likes to zigzag in-between/be dubious when doing the interviews, and partly because I didn't specify "the boss's hometown" part.
Tottori prefecture might hold Boss's mother/father's hometown, which in turn can be understood as his/her own hometown as in "the place where the boss was born", or can be the location where the childhood/growing-up phase took place. I already stated that I wasn't confident about the HQ's location, but the boss's hometown being somewhere in Tottori can be related to these details in the manga:

- The phone number's source is a children song that evokes a nostalgic feeling --> Usually linking to one's past or the original hometown.

- Kusuda Rikumichi mystery : he was some agent without a codename (from Vermouth's words) yet he knew the boss's number, which was compared to a Pandora box by Haibara, suggesting an important key that can play a big part later in the story. Does that mean Kusuda is someone the boss personally knows, rather than just a simple agent ? Should we take Vermouth's words (to Bourbon at that time) as minor descriptions rather than a cover-up for some bigger puzzle ? Would it be a stretch to consider Kusuda being from the same hometown as the boss ?

- Following from above then the part where Akai, being bothered by the Kusuda mystery, decided to show up and asked Rei to investigate the only clue left from it (the Glock 17 Kusuda used to shoot himself) might return later with something related to the boss. After all why would Gosho bother drawing Akai's request if not for that ?
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 15th, 2017, 5:44 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Why Kuroda did a shitty job with his hair?(The theory that Kuroda is switched fails miserably to explain this. If somebody switched with Kuroda he has to let go of half of his face and possible one eye to mimic his appearance. The second issue is more serious in nature, if that person went for skin grafts and faked a prosthetic eye why the same person did a shitty job with his hair colour ? Why the same person didn't get a plastic surgery ? Kuroda's hair turning white in Coma due to stress makes no sense, but makes sense if Kuroda originally dyed his hair black.)


Yeah, this makes me think the 10 year coma and sudden hair change could be a red herring/misdirect by Gosho to try and get us to think one Hyoe went into the hospital and another one came out...

...and since the popular notion is that Tsutomu replaced him, it makes me wonder if Shuichi's comment "they never found father's corpse" could also be a red herring/misdirect.

Unless Tsutomu deduced that Hyoe dyed his hair black and that stress would get rid of the dye... but this has problems/contradictions, right?
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 15th, 2017, 11:16 pm

Spimer, we call the pimples/boils in eye as Stye. It's just a specification.

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