Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,051-1,054

[blackmoon]

Well that escalated quickly. I did not expect Amuro to get knocked out that quickly. Rumi really wanted that shogi piece back, but that will also be her downfall. Now this begs the question. Did rumi want the shogi piece back regardless of the risk of Amuro piecing things together? or did she just assume that he would not know the significance of the piece. Surely rum would be more careful in such a scenario. I honestly don't think that Rum would risk revealing the importance of the piece and it's relation to the case in front of a highly trained PBS officer.

I think amuro will very easily link someone at the scene to the Haneda koji case, when he finds the piece missing.

Good point there...
One thing i do not understand about Amuro's flash back when he held Kohji's favorite shogi piece is that he thought that this shogi piece may be connected to Kohji's killer, which may also be present at the farm... but... according to the B.O.'s aptx drug victim list, Kohji's name was listed on that list... so did Bourbon not have access to the aptx victim list? And he who is a code-named B.O. agent never knew or heard that Kohji was killed by aptx, which could only be in the hands of B.O.? Considering that even Gin knew about RUM being involved in the case of Kohji, it's hard to believe that Bourbon is unaware that Kohji's death is related to RUM. So... why did Amuro's flash back made him connect to a 'possible Kohji killer' based on police records, but not RUM instead In other words, why didn't Kohji's shogi piece trigger a connection to RUM from Bourbon but a 'fugitive killer of Kohji' instead?

[jason342]

Well that escalated quickly. I did not expect Amuro to get knocked out that quickly. Rumi really wanted that shogi piece back, but that will also be her downfall. Now this begs the question. Did rumi want the shogi piece back regardless of the risk of Amuro piecing things together? or did she just assume that he would not know the significance of the piece. Surely rum would be more careful in such a scenario. I honestly don't think that Rum would risk revealing the importance of the piece and it's relation to the case in front of a highly trained PBS officer.

I think amuro will very easily link someone at the scene to the Haneda koji case, when he finds the piece missing.

Good point there...
One thing i do not understand about Amuro's flash back when he held Kohji's favorite shogi piece is that he thought that this shogi piece may be connected to Kohji's killer, which may also be present at the farm... but... according to the B.O.'s aptx drug victim list, Kohji's name was listed on that list... so did Bourbon not have access to the aptx victim list? And he who is a code-named B.O. agent never knew or heard that Kohji was killed by aptx, which could only be in the hands of B.O.? Considering that even Gin knew about RUM being involved in the case of Kohji, it's hard to believe that Bourbon is unaware that Kohji's death is related to RUM. So... why did Amuro's flash back made him connect to a 'possible Kohji killer' based on police records, but not RUM instead In other words, why didn't Kohji's shogi piece trigger a connection to RUM from Bourbon but a 'fugitive killer of Kohji' instead?

That's a really good point you brought to my attention. I'm guessing Bourbon did not really have access to the aptx list. I'm pretty sure Gin knew about rum's screw up, as he likes to put it because he was there long enough and is a senior member of the BO. Bourbon joined around about the same time as akai and was not in the BO for as long as Gin.

[Zerozaki4869]

Bourbon and Vermouth did BO's bidding in the Asaca song case. That was enough for Bourbon to figure out BO's involvement in Kohji case or there's a catch, maybe the mirror wasn't even a part of the crime scene. So that's why Amuro thinks the uploader is trying to pin the crime on KG.

[Shinan-Kudogawa]

Bourbon's activiy in the song named ASACA case, prompts us to think he is on the know, employed to work on the case. Meaning he at least knows about the Kohji's case and it's connection to BO, as they partnered him with Vermouth to investigate. And on the latest case, he refers to a killer of Kohji on the farm, not referring to a BO agent of the sort. Rum knows Bourbon, even if by appearance, providing two dangerous chances, if Rumi is Rum. 1 - Rum/Rumi risked their ID to be known by attacking Bourbon, 2 - Rum/Rumi already known by Bourbon, still attacked him (which is highy unlikely). Resulting in a very highly uncharacteristic trait of Rum/Rumi to attack Bourbon, while knowing the skills of Bourbon. Again Gosho might be pulling a super twist with Rumi = Rum, while double/triple red herring us, towards believing she is not Rum with the assumptions..

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Again Gosho might be pulling a super twist with Rumi = Rum, while double/triple red herring us, towards believing she is not Rum with the assumptions..

But in the unlikely event he does that, I'll just think, "Oh, so he's going this route." Rumi has been presented far too uniquely and suspiciously for me to be surprised by her being Rum.

[Zerozaki4869]

I would say the three main suspects are portrayed by three different writing styles........

Rumi--> Has been portrayed as someone not genuinely what she says she is, someone with BO aura, apparently incriminating evidence. Characters like that are primary herrings.

Wakita--> Has been portrayed suspiciously, with Bourbon's route/progression in mind with subtle differences and mannerisms. Characters like these are secondary herrings.

Kuroda--> Portrayed with initial suspicion which is quickly allayed by the narrative and gaining a firewall in a sort of way. Unlike Wakita there is no apparent chink in his armour. A firewall suspect.They are generally the mind boggling culprits.

[Shinan-Kudogawa]

Again Gosho might be pulling a super twist with Rumi = Rum, while double/triple red herring us, towards believing she is not Rum with the assumptions..

But in the unlikely event he does that, I'll just think, "Oh, so he's going this route." Rumi has been presented far too uniquely and suspiciously for me to be surprised by her being Rum.

True, to a certain degree. However, with the pace he is going at, Gosho is for some reason neglected focus for the time being on Wakita and Kuroda. Logically, it would mean to remove a 1st -non-Rum character, to leave the tense atmosphere of guessing between the remaning two characters. As if, he presented three characters as candidates, and while buidling the mystery around them. Focusing on one of them, with some distinguished trait, as to eventually reveal the character to be a different person, while keeping the readers on guessing between the remaining two. A logical pathway of story telling, however, what I mean by a super twist. Is that while Gosho may reveal Rumi to be another character than a Rum candidate. Leaving us guessing between only Kuroda and Wakita, he'd pull a joker twist card, and reveal that in fact we judged too quickly, and Rumi fooled us to be the actual Rum. Again this is possible theory for Gosho to utilize if he watns to surprise the readers, although it is not much a trait of Gosho to fool us then show us. He'd rather create a mystery, then reveals the truth, rather than tricking the reader, and then revealing the truth.

[jason342]

I would say the three main suspects are portrayed by three different writing styles........

Rumi--> Has been portrayed as someone not genuinely what she says she is, someone with BO aura, apparently incriminating evidence. Characters like that are primary herrings.

Wakita--> Has been portrayed suspiciously, with Bourbon's route/progression in mind with subtle differences and mannerisms. Characters like these are secondary herrings.

Kuroda--> Portrayed with initial suspicion which is quickly allayed by the narrative and gaining a firewall in a sort of way. Unlike Wakita there is no apparent chink in his armour. A firewall suspect.They are generally the mind boggling culprits.

I agree with most of your points. The one character that has sort of been sidelined at this point in the story, is none other than tsutomu akai. The character i once was sure was the identity of kuroda. With the recent developments i have been second guessing my previous assumption of him still being alive and lurking like a demon in the shadows as mary and gin would put it. What i also want to know is why Mary and Gin are familiar with the same quote. I assume they both got it from tsutomu who must have heard it from Rum if he was confronted by him, as to Rum tsutomu was the Demon in chasing him after the kohji case at the behest of the Haneda family.

Anyway i digress. I doubt that tsutomu is alive sadly and if he is then i don't see him with his intelligence service links leaving his wife alone to face them without having her back, which we clearly see was not the case in the london when she was duped by vermouth into thinking he would meet her at the bride. Tbh that blunder was more a fault of Mary's than his, but the fact that she slipped up so carelessly tells me that she missed him and was desperate and almost suicidal to risk exposing herself like that. I get the feeling that she knew deep down that he had perished once contact ceased between them for years until she saw the ghost of her husbands face worn by the witch with many faces on the bridge. She must have needed that reassurance that he was really dead.

[Zerozaki4869]

I do think there is something about Tsutomu's character that we are missing out.
To fool your enemies you've to fool your friends first.

That note of ``Treat me as a dead man from here on.``
The same proverb.
BO's eagerness to infiltrate MI6.
Vermouth waiting for 3 years to appear before Mary when she could have just waited 1 year and get the stuff done. (As if she just got voice data of Tsutomu only recently.)
BO waiting for 14 years to infiltrate MI6, where Tsutomu Akai already was missing for 17 years.

So I think Tsutomu is inside BO with a deep cover. (Possibly he is a male version of Vermouth, Shuichi uses disguises and voice changer and in Gosho-land fathers do it better than the sons. Hence Tsutomu using a disguise and a different voice.)
Rum is possibly out there and is searching for Tsutomu.(His investigations on Tsutomu began 3 years ago and now recently he got the voice data from Tsutomu.), Tsutomu is still considered a real threat and an active spy. That's why to test the waters and control the damage Vermouth was given the mission to infiltrate MI6.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Again Gosho might be pulling a super twist with Rumi = Rum, while double/triple red herring us, towards believing she is not Rum with the assumptions..

But in the unlikely event he does that, I'll just think, "Oh, so he's going this route." Rumi has been presented far too uniquely and suspiciously for me to be surprised by her being Rum.

True, to a certain degree. However, with the pace he is going at, Gosho is for some reason neglected focus for the time being on Wakita and Kuroda. Logically, it would mean to remove a 1st -non-Rum character, to leave the tense atmosphere of guessing between the remaning two characters. As if, he presented three characters as candidates, and while buidling the mystery around them. Focusing on one of them, with some distinguished trait, as to eventually reveal the character to be a different person, while keeping the readers on guessing between the remaining two. A logical pathway of story telling, however, what I mean by a super twist. Is that while Gosho may reveal Rumi to be another character than a Rum candidate. Leaving us guessing between only Kuroda and Wakita, he'd pull a joker twist card, and reveal that in fact we judged too quickly, and Rumi fooled us to be the actual Rum. Again this is possible theory for Gosho to utilize if he watns to surprise the readers, although it is not much a trait of Gosho to fool us then show us. He'd rather create a mystery, then reveals the truth, rather than tricking the reader, and then revealing the truth.

That is, of course, in the event that we declare the matter resolved the instant the fake reveal happens. And that would depend, for instance, on how much time would pass between the fake reveal and the actual reveal. Is it only a few files, a few cases, or does it take a few years, instead? I can see Goshō pulling a fake reveal, but I can't see him taking years to reveal it (even with these long delays between cases/files). In which case, with such a narrow time frame, I definitely wouldn't let my guard down.

But even if the time frame was longer, the reveal that the uniquely suspicious Rumi was actually Rum still wouldn't surprise me. In a long-running mystery series with continuity, you keep an eye on the suspects until the series comes to a close, due to the possibility that the author will try to mix things up. The only ones you can drop you guard on are the ones who appeared long ago and have never appeared again (i.e., Dr. Araide, post Vermouth arc... and this only applies as long as he doesn't appear again).

As for the focus lately being on Rumi rather than Kanenori and Hyōe—I think that's more due to these long breaks than anything else. Were Gosho still able to keep to his 2007-2013/2016 pace of about 40 files per year/12 cases per year, then instead it taking two years to get from the Shūichi/Bourbon confrontation (1,009–1,012) to the case we just finished (1,051–1,054), we would've gotten that entire range of cases in (give-or-take) a year instead of two. We'd really be ahead of where we are now, were that the case, and thus be able to tell whether or not Kanenori and Hyōe taking backseats to Rumi was a trend beyond this current point. But since we aren't, it's created the feeling that Kanenori and Rumi have less focus.

The one character that has sort of been sidelined at this point in the story, is none other than tsutomu akai. The character i once was sure was the identity of kuroda. With the recent developments i have been second guessing my previous assumption of him still being alive and lurking like a demon in the shadows as mary and gin would put it. What i also want to know is why Mary and Gin are familiar with the same quote. I assume they both got it from tsutomu who must have heard it from Rum if he was confronted by him, as to Rum tsutomu was the Demon in chasing him after the kohji case at the behest of the Haneda family.

Anyway i digress. I doubt that tsutomu is alive sadly and if he is then i don't see him with his intelligence service links leaving his wife alone to face them without having her back, which we clearly see was not the case in the london when she was duped by vermouth into thinking he would meet her at the bride. Tbh that blunder was more a fault of Mary's than his, but the fact that she slipped up so carelessly tells me that she missed him and was desperate and almost suicidal to risk exposing herself like that. I get the feeling that she knew deep down that he had perished once contact ceased between them for years until she saw the ghost of her husbands face worn by the witch with many faces on the bridge. She must have needed that reassurance that he was really dead.

But it seems to be implied that Mary hasn't heard from the real Tsutomu (beyond the final text message he left to her) since he left, 17 years ago, before Masumi was even born. So Mary would have to have heard that quote from him before he left to investigate the Kōji case. The fact that Gin is using an old quote of Tsutomu's seems to indicate that he's still alive, and has a connection to Gin, which implies he's in the BO (or was alive long enough to create an impression in Gin, enough for Gin to still use that quote in present day).

[Zerozaki4869]

Maybe a bit offtopic, but some interesting stuff about Wakita.



It is very likely to be Wakita's handiwork. Cause using a pickpocket to put a winning ticket inside one's purse looks plain suspicious and any smart man would try to avoid it.


(Maybe the hint here is to look for someone bending his knees for no good reason.)



The person who is healthy enough to scale through through the ceiling passage but yet bends his knees like old men with leg/hamstring problems.

Regarding Kuroda a very interesting observation, What does he finds in the Uploader's material that he uses it against NPA/PSB's Kohji case material archive.

[Shinan-Kudogawa]

Again Gosho might be pulling a super twist with Rumi = Rum, while double/triple red herring us, towards believing she is not Rum with the assumptions..

But in the unlikely event he does that, I'll just think, "Oh, so he's going this route." Rumi has been presented far too uniquely and suspiciously for me to be surprised by her being Rum.

True, to a certain degree. However, with the pace he is going at, Gosho is for some reason neglected focus for the time being on Wakita and Kuroda. Logically, it would mean to remove a 1st -non-Rum character, to leave the tense atmosphere of guessing between the remaning two characters. As if, he presented three characters as candidates, and while buidling the mystery around them. Focusing on one of them, with some distinguished trait, as to eventually reveal the character to be a different person, while keeping the readers on guessing between the remaining two. A logical pathway of story telling, however, what I mean by a super twist. Is that while Gosho may reveal Rumi to be another character than a Rum candidate. Leaving us guessing between only Kuroda and Wakita, he'd pull a joker twist card, and reveal that in fact we judged too quickly, and Rumi fooled us to be the actual Rum. Again this is possible theory for Gosho to utilize if he watns to surprise the readers, although it is not much a trait of Gosho to fool us then show us. He'd rather create a mystery, then reveals the truth, rather than tricking the reader, and then revealing the truth.

That is, of course, in the event that we declare the matter resolved the instant the fake reveal happens. And that would depend, for instance, on how much time would pass between the fake reveal and the actual reveal. Is it only a few files, a few cases, or does it take a few years, instead? I can see Goshō pulling a fake reveal, but I can't see him taking years to reveal it (even with these long delays between cases/files). In which case, with such a narrow time frame, I definitely wouldn't let my guard down.

But even if the time frame was longer, the reveal that the uniquely suspicious Rumi was actually Rum still wouldn't surprise me. In a long-running mystery series with continuity, you keep an eye on the suspects until the series comes to a close, due to the possibility that the author will try to mix things up. The only ones you can drop you guard on are the ones who appeared long ago and have never appeared again (i.e., Dr. Araide, post Vermouth arc... and this only applies as long as he doesn't appear again).

As for the focus lately being on Rumi rather than Kanenori and Hyōe—I think that's more due to these long breaks than anything else. Were Gosho still able to keep to his 2007-2013/2016 pace of about 40 files per year/12 cases per year, then instead it taking two years to get from the Shūichi/Bourbon confrontation (1,009–1,012) to the case we just finished (1,051–1,054), we would've gotten that entire range of cases in (give-or-take) a year instead of two. We'd really be ahead of where we are now, were that the case, and thus be able to tell whether or not Kanenori and Hyōe taking backseats to Rumi was a trend beyond this current point. But since we aren't, it's created the feeling that Kanenori and Rumi have less focus.

I agree with you on the conept of the timeframe and Gosho's pace, however, we are still don't know the direction that he is going with, whether he is planning one file at a time. Or in fact he plans ahead a couple of files while working on the current one, I wouldn't be surprised if the reveal is Rumi, though I'd be disappointed. Perhaps, Gosho would pull a quick reveal, and in the second file he'd prove it wrong. Anyways, I think perhaps the minor characters from past stories might return ( I do think that Dr. Araide is of current value to Gosho, than to let go and forget, also I have an inclined deep doubt about Asou Seiji, even if the character is truly dead, it would be quite cool of Gosho to use the character in a new scenario) ..

[Zerozaki4869]

Now look at the shading given underneath Kohji's body, it proves that Kuroda also recalled Kohji on a floor.....

[Kudo Shinchi]

Now look at the shading given underneath Kohji's body, it proves that Kuroda also recalled Kohji on a floor.....

Have we confirmed that Gosho didn't correct Kuroda's panel for the volume release? If he didn't, this is really quite the piece of evidence. Kuroda is literally the only character who remembers Kohji without that trickle and pool of blood...

[andi2ews]

Now look at the shading given underneath Kohji's body, it proves that Kuroda also recalled Kohji on a floor.....

Have we confirmed that Gosho didn't correct Kuroda's panel for the volume release? If he didn't, this is really quite the piece of evidence. Kuroda is literally the only character who remembers Kohji without that trickle and pool of blood...

i have the italian version of the volume and practically, it's the same