Why was Mary shrank?

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
blackmoon
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Why was Mary shrank?

Postby blackmoon » January 23rd, 2018, 1:54 am

Has anyone figured out how and why Mary got shrank? We know that at the time Conan first met the Akai family at the beach 10 years ago, Mary was still in her adult form, and from the conversation at the time, we get the information that Akai's father and Mary's husband Tsutomu got in trouble with 'very bad people' and went missing. It is also the time that we know Akai planned to join FBI. So what could have happened after the beach meeting that caused Mary to shrank?

The only way that Mary would shrank was by taking the APTX pill. Was she forced fed the APTX pill like they did to Conan? But why would Mary be forced fed the pill by BO? And if that was indeed the case, why wasn't her name on the APTX victim list? And if BO figured Mary to be a threat enough to give her the pill, why did they not investigate further and figure out her connection to Tsutomu and find out other relatives of her family that could have linked them to Akai being a spy in their organization? What could Mary have done that caught the attention of the BO to drug her? Or... could it be that she obtained a APTX pill through Akai and Akemi's relationship that happened 5 years ago? But why would she need to take such a pill to shrink herself? Was there a need for her to hide from someone or something? ???
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
K.O.R.N
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby K.O.R.N » January 23rd, 2018, 7:05 am

I think she attacked Wakita in the left eye before being subdued by him. The knife-hand strike from Mary hit Wakita on the left eye just like Shuichi. About why? I think either Rum (if he's Wakita) or if Wakita somehow figured out Mary as a connection to Tsutomu from 17 years ago, then that's probably the reason why. Another reason is that it's also possible that Mary is a spy from MI6 who got found out and intoxicated with APTX. It also depends on when Mary was attacked as well. If she was attacked 5 years ago or more, then the APTX old version was used on her. Because Shiho was 13 and began her research from her parents' work, before 5 years ago there was no version of the current APTX.

The plot makes it sound like Mary got attacked recently, Wakita suddenly appeared and such. Mary and Sera have been on the run a lot of times recently in Japan, so yeah, she's under pursuit of BO, could be from Rum, or from Wakita. I don't think it's that easy to figure out that Mary and Tsutomu are connected since both are most likely agents, hiding their identity and such. Therefore, the "spy" chance is more likely - though I don't want to see another spy.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 23rd, 2018, 7:25 am

If you trace back to Sera's introduction case, you can see that she was interested in Conan from the very beginning. While some might say that Sera came to confirm/investigate Akai's death, that claim gets countered squarely by the latest chapter. Mary said that the antidote really exists, which makes me think that they had an idea that the antidote may exist. Who gave them the idea? Not Shuichi for sure.(He himself doesn't know about the side effect of APTX, Shukichi is an impossible solution)

So they must have seen a person in his original form, on whom APTX has been administered. Given the timing of Sera's appearance(Just after Holmes arc and given how Masumi was staying in UK with Mary.)it is evident that they had seen Shinichi running around during the wimbledon and they had prior knowledge that Shinichi was APTXed.

So Mary was attacked in UK, probably she was investigating BO(after hearing about Shuichi's apparent death, heard that Kudo Shinichi got APTXed, or the person poisoning her mentioned that she is the second one after the famous Shinichi Kudo to get poisoned by APTX.)

Now a person who roams around with APTX list in her hand, thinks Conan is somehow Shinichi in a chibified form, is probably the one who had attacked Mary.
dccd
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby dccd » January 23rd, 2018, 10:21 am

100% agree with Korn.

To add sth which maybe was mentioned before:
Conans last question in 974 is: Who did it [gave Mary the APTX?
975: Wakita appears.

And partially I agree with Zero.
Yes - obv Wimbledon with Conan was the event Mary saw.
We even might have a parallel to 899-9xx in which Mary is watching sports (Shogi) on TV too.
Btw: Is it possible that Gosho had planned Mary/Sera/Rum-Arc even that early? Sounds possible.

I disagree on Mary being attacked in the UK.
From the 1000-1005 chat it seems that she hasnt used a antidote before.
So it would be really hard for her to go on a flight without a fake id.
Remember Conans trouble with it.

But the most important point is: Mary fled 10 years ago to Japan knowing someone is prolly threatening her in UK.
I dont see much reason for her to go back to the UK since she is hiding in Japan for 10 years.

And Rumi did not attack Mary.
The hurt eye should be enough to disprove this.
Furthermore Rumi did not show any kind of interest in Mary so far but in Conan/Shinichi.
Furthermore Rumi is looking at at the APTX list.
What for?
Mary isnt on the APTX list and if she was the one who attacked Rumi then her memory should be enough.
It doesnt make sense to look at the APTX list since Mary isnt there.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
blackmoon
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby blackmoon » January 23rd, 2018, 8:18 pm

dccd wrote:100% agree with Korn.

To add sth which maybe was mentioned before:
Conans last question in 974 is: Who did it [gave Mary the APTX?
975: Wakita appears.

And partially I agree with Zero.
Yes - obv Wimbledon with Conan was the event Mary saw.
We even might have a parallel to 899-9xx in which Mary is watching sports (Shogi) on TV too.
Btw: Is it possible that Gosho had planned Mary/Sera/Rum-Arc even that early? Sounds possible.

I disagree on Mary being attacked in the UK.
From the 1000-1005 chat it seems that she hasnt used a antidote before.
So it would be really hard for her to go on a flight without a fake id.
Remember Conans trouble with it.

But the most important point is: Mary fled 10 years ago to Japan knowing someone is prolly threatening her in UK.
I dont see much reason for her to go back to the UK since she is hiding in Japan for 10 years.

And Rumi did not attack Mary.
The hurt eye should be enough to disprove this.
Furthermore Rumi did not show any kind of interest in Mary so far but in Conan/Shinichi.
Furthermore Rumi is looking at at the APTX list.
What for?
Mary isnt on the APTX list and if she was the one who attacked Rumi then her memory should be enough.
It doesnt make sense to look at the APTX list since Mary isnt there.


Very good points there! Thanks for responding! So, yeah, most likely the event of Mary shrinking happened more recently (at least after the new drug with shrinking affect was produced) and due to Sera witnessing Conan's changes from child to adult form, they figured out there is an antidote to it. Does appear suspicious that Wakita has a fresh eye wound, but... if he was that eager to show it to the people at the restaurant, how could he be so sure that there won't be people who really would demand to see it, and turns out it wasn't a pimple infection like he said it was? :|

K.O.R.N wrote:I think she attacked Wakita in the left eye before being subdued by him. The knife-hand strike from Mary hit Wakita on the left eye just like Shuichi. About why? I think either Rum (if he's Wakita) or if Wakita somehow figured out Mary as a connection to Tsutomu from 17 years ago, then that's probably the reason why. Another reason is that it's also possible that Mary is a spy from MI6 who got found out and intoxicated with APTX. It also depends on when Mary was attacked as well. If she was attacked 5 years ago or more, then the APTX old version was used on her. Because Shiho was 13 and began her research from her parents' work, before 5 years ago there was no version of the current APTX.

The plot makes it sound like Mary got attacked recently, Wakita suddenly appeared and such. Mary and Sera have been on the run a lot of times recently in Japan, so yeah, she's under pursuit of BO, could be from Rum, or from Wakita. I don't think it's that easy to figure out that Mary and Tsutomu are connected since both are most likely agents, hiding their identity and such. Therefore, the "spy" chance is more likely - though I don't want to see another spy.


A reasonable deduction. So Wakita is good at bluffing? Said his eye patch covers a pimple infection and was confident enough that nobody would want to check it out? Then again, when did Sherry hear about descriptions about Rum? When she was still in the organization, I suppose. So... they say Rum has a prosthetic eye even when Ai Haibara was still working for the organization, which means that he probably got the eye wound from the Kohji incident 17 years ago rather than just being hit recently? ;D
Last edited by Kor on January 23rd, 2018, 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
Kor
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby Kor » January 23rd, 2018, 8:57 pm

I recall MeitX suggesting that it was Tsutomu who may have caused the Rum's eye injury with some Jeet Kune Do move similarly to what Akai was threatening to do to the dude at the beach, which sounds reasonable to me. I just don't remember where (if) it's stated Tsutomu knew Jeet Kune Do, though. An interview maybe?
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dccd
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby dccd » January 24th, 2018, 9:23 am

A reasonable deduction. So Wakita is good at bluffing? Said his eye patch covers a pimple infection and was confident enough that nobody would want to check it out?


Yes, it was a bluff.

1) I really doubt that the scene/panel/sentence has a deeper meaning but simply is a little troll by Gosho.
Same as Iori mentioning Friday 13th, european history, wearing a british type of hat and having Akai-eyes.
This was aswell just a "Look its Tsutomu/Akai"-troll.
Or does someone really think Iori is an Akai?
Maybe Mary was bored after all...

2) There are tons of possible explanations to this scene:
- Simply a joke/troll
- Pretty much noone would ever agree to see a pimple right before eating ; ask yourself, would you wanna see one in this situation?
- Even if Kogoro/Conan agree to see: He could still say "Naah, I dont wanna kill your appetite". Its just small talk.
Does it sound likely to anyone that Kogoro/Conan would force a stranger to show a pimple?
- Wakita wants to find out if Kogoro knows about Rums one eye
- Gosho shows that Conan doesnt give a damn about every one eyed person next to him
Just compare Kurodas intro with Wakitas (and his appearence at Agasas house)
- Gosho just wants to make Wakita flew under the average readers radar "Ah he would show his eye... so he cant be Rum".

It seems it worked since everybody (atleast in german forums) was after Kuroda/Rumi. Same with Reddit.

And now another point which hasnt been brought up afaik:

From a criminal-literature-point of view there would be no plottwist if it ends up being a pimple.
From all suspects this is the only left "hidden eye".
Its in the nature of things that of course there will be more than a pimple.
I actually believe that it isnt just a bruise but Wakita actually lost his eye.

If we combine that with Kuroda = Tsutomu / Rumi = Asaka
then I guess we know whats coming.

Then again, when did Sherry hear about descriptions about Rum? When she was still in the organization, I suppose. So... they say Rum has a prosthetic eye even when Ai Haibara was still working for the organization, which means that he probably got the eye wound from the Kohji incident 17 years ago rather than just being hit recently?


Thats a really good question.
Afaik there are 3 events that the eye-loss mightve happened:

1) 17 years ago/Koji case
2) Tsutomu fight (Kuroda/Tsu fell into coma)
3) Mary fight

Maybe someone has some hints?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
K.O.R.N
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby K.O.R.N » January 24th, 2018, 10:08 am

I don't think Rum lost his eye in the Kouji case. Initially I thought the same, but then it doesn't make sense there. To be attacked in the eye, there should've been Rum's blood on the scene if he lost an eye there. The accident should be severe enough to cost him an eye. Simply getting a blackeye won't result in the need for a prosthetic eye, as healing is still ongoing. There was nothing about some blood of a stranger on the scene aside from those we know, whose cause of death is by APTX. There would've been luminol reaction on the scene if Rum lost an eye (injury) there. Thus, I feel like Rum lost his eye because of some other accident that doesn't have to do with the Kouji case - getting hit by Mary or Tsutomu makes more sense, but should be outside of that crime scene.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 24th, 2018, 11:12 am

The narrative puts Wakita=Rum, Kuroda=Tsutomu and Asaka=Rumi in our mind.

Like Kuroda is strong, adept in hand to hand combat, likes red tea, so an Akai. Rumi is a woman, has the name Asaka hidden in her name, has stuff from the crime scene, has strong reactions against the word Prosthetic eye, yup a great Asaka, Wakita with a hidden left eye and an ugly face, with Boss' second in command hint, wow a total Rum.

But Kuroda likes to chase around women named Wakasa Rumi, not the true perpetrator Rum, he has no interest in those bad people with whom he made enemies, due to the Kohji case. Also he never recalls the fight with Rum, in Kohji case, to be precise he reached the spot when everything was done and dusted. Was these the actions of Tsutomu-san, 17 years ago? I beg to differ. Kuroda is too slow and too unrelated to be Tsutomu.(Note that there's a possibility that Tsutomu is a BO operative and is influencing people with his silly proverbs.)

On the other hand, Rumi has strong emotions relating to Prosthetic eye and big one eyed men. She has something very similar in shape which went missing from the crime scene. But if Rumi was Asaka, why she didn't help the law enforcement? She could have let the stuff at haneda's hand at least. But no, she took the stuff from his palm and is probably trying to evaluate a certain hypothesis about Conan(his true identity) which will help her solve the shogi piece clue in long run. But these underhand techniques are not Asaka's choice if Asaka was Amanda's bodyguard. Amanda's cause of death is unknown, it wasn't a murder rather a mysterious death. So why the BG without informing anybody had to retreat and why Asaka even be related with Kohji case? Kohji was not Asaka's principle so Asaka would have no business in defending Kohji if Asaka was already keeping Amanda safe. Rumi si a crime scene vandal and clearly not Asaka.(Asaka probably was either a FBI or a CIA or NPA agent, who just went back to parent organization after the save Amanda mission failed.)

Wakita is totally gambling when he's opting to show his eye, (It was Conan who was inquisitive about it. If Conan didn't ask him he wouldn't have done this. So this reaction was impromptu. Given Rum's history with the prosthetic eye, he must be very adept now in his day to day life and Wakita asked for a chef's job as he's adept in it. If Rum was an experienced chef he would know by now how to handle knives despite having monocular vision. He wouldn't even need that ruse of eyepatch.)
Also his reaction was impromptu, thus it's far less likely that he's lying.
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby MeiTanteixX » January 24th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:The narrative puts Wakita=Rum, Kuroda=Tsutomu and Asaka=Rumi in our mind.
Nope. The narrative is telling us:
- that Rumi might be Asaka=Rum who found out about Shinichi's drug survival and is connected to shogi but that she is targeting, as well as on to, Conan's intelligence.
- that Kuroda is Rumi's enemy and that he is investigating the Kohji case and is on to Conan's intelligence, but that he also might be Rum.
- that Wakita is interested in Rumi as well as investigating sleeping Kogoro and Shinichi's survival and that he also might be Rum.

Kor wrote:I recall MeitX suggesting that it was Tsutomu who may have caused the Rum's eye injury with some Jeet Kune Do move similarly to what Akai was threatening to do to the dude at the beach, which sounds reasonable to me. I just don't remember where (if) it's stated Tsutomu knew Jeet Kune Do, though. An interview maybe?
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I actually said that Tsutomu blinded Rum with his finger jab, which forced Rum to flee and leave Kohji's room as a mess, but I'm not that sure if a finger jab actually resulted his prosthetic, as well as if it would be considered as "some sort of accident"... but seeing as things might just be this simple in the plot, I can't say it's unlikely.
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dccd
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby dccd » January 24th, 2018, 1:32 pm

So Wakita is Tsutomu.
And Tsutomu has a pimple.
And he is hiding his pimple, because ... it looks ugly?

Sounds totally like Gosho would draw Tsutomu.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Kor
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby Kor » January 24th, 2018, 2:07 pm

Hmm... "Why was Mary shrank" seems like it turned into more "Rum arc discussion". Not saying this line of discussion has to stop (unless the thread's creator is unsatisfied with it), just wanted to point it out.

MeiTanteixX wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:The narrative puts Wakita=Rum, Kuroda=Tsutomu and Asaka=Rumi in our mind.
Nope. The narrative is telling us:
- that Rumi might be Asaka=Rum who found out about Shinichi's drug survival and is connected to shogi but that she is targeting, as well as on to, Conan's intelligence.
- that Kuroda is Rumi's enemy and that he is investigating the Kohji case and is on to Conan's intelligence, but that he also might be Rum.
- that Wakita is interested in Rumi as well as investigating sleeping Kogoro and Shinichi's survival and that he also might be Rum.


Pretty much in agreement with this.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 24th, 2018, 9:23 pm

MeiTanteixX wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:The narrative puts Wakita=Rum, Kuroda=Tsutomu and Asaka=Rumi in our mind.
Nope. The narrative is telling us:
- that Rumi might be Asaka=Rum who found out about Shinichi's drug survival and is connected to shogi but that she is targeting, as well as on to, Conan's intelligence.
- that Kuroda is Rumi's enemy and that he is investigating the Kohji case and is on to Conan's intelligence, but that he also might be Rum.
- that Wakita is interested in Rumi as well as investigating sleeping Kogoro and Shinichi's survival and that he also might be Rum.

Kor wrote:I recall MeitX suggesting that it was Tsutomu who may have caused the Rum's eye injury with some Jeet Kune Do move similarly to what Akai was threatening to do to the dude at the beach, which sounds reasonable to me. I just don't remember where (if) it's stated Tsutomu knew Jeet Kune Do, though. An interview maybe?
SDB 90+
Spoiler:
Image
I actually said that Tsutomu blinded Rum with his finger jab, which forced Rum to flee and leave Kohji's room as a mess, but I'm not that sure if a finger jab actually resulted his prosthetic, as well as if it would be considered as "some sort of accident"... but seeing as things might just be this simple in the plot, I can't say it's unlikely.


No, not that. Haibara's BO sense cleared Kuroda much early in the arc and despite her sense Haibara is giving Rumi a clean-chit. As of now Haibara is yet to meet Wakita.
So narrative wise Kuroda=No BO, Rumi=good Bo, Wakita=probably Bad BO , narrative-wise Asaka was never Rum, especially after the recent "Carasuma" reveal.
Now if you combine this with other info(Hotta saying Asaka was a woman), Rumi and Kuroda are enemies of each-other, Wakita is investigating Kogoro and Shinichi, it's written in bold letters to pin, Rumi=Asaka, Kuroda=Tsutomu, and Wakita=Rum. That's how it is, narrative wise.
blackmoon
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby blackmoon » January 24th, 2018, 9:47 pm

Kor wrote:Hmm... "Why was Mary shrank" seems like it turned into more "Rum arc discussion". Not saying this line of discussion has to stop (unless the thread's creator is unsatisfied with it), just wanted to point it out.


Ah, totally don't mind the change in course at all. [Although I'm not sure how far the admins would let it run if they were on the watch ::) ]

Actually, I'm glad how the discussion threads turned out answering some unaccounted questions. So thanks! :D

K.O.R.N wrote:I don't think Rum lost his eye in the Kouji case. Initially I thought the same, but then it doesn't make sense there. To be attacked in the eye, there should've been Rum's blood on the scene if he lost an eye there. The accident should be severe enough to cost him an eye. Simply getting a blackeye won't result in the need for a prosthetic eye, as healing is still ongoing. There was nothing about some blood of a stranger on the scene aside from those we know, whose cause of death is by APTX. There would've been luminol reaction on the scene if Rum lost an eye (injury) there. Thus, I feel like Rum lost his eye because of some other accident that doesn't have to do with the Kouji case - getting hit by Mary or Tsutomu makes more sense, but should be outside of that crime scene.


Very good point there! A serious eye injury ought to have blood spill that would stain the room. So Rum really did lose an eye in an accident from another incident... hmm... hopefully not on a certain field trip? Ho ho... I wonder how his eye was lost. ^-^

Now my attempt to lead the discussion back about Mary. Quoting the following from wiki:
http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Mary_Sera

Mary is the sister of Elena Miyano
This very popular fan theory was born after Gosho hinted that two mother characters are sisters. After it was confirmed the sisters were not the previous most popular choice Yukiko Kudo and Chikage Kuroba, and that the Akai family mother was one member of the sister pair, fan suspicion fell squarely on Elena Miyano as the other mother. After all, the two are both British. Gosho has given evasive answers when asked about Elena and the Akai family mother being related, which is his habit when a fan theory is correct but he can't admit to it.

Mary is a British SIS/MI6 Agent
Mary is British and has several unusual skillsets that match those of other spy-like characters in Detective Conan. Mary has knowledge of incapacitating martial arts that can bring down adult men despite her size, extraordinary flexibility and climbing skills that allowed her to hide below a balcony like a ninja, and knowledge of listening devices and hidden microphones. Because of her British nationality, the theory that she is a member of the British Secret Intelligence Service, often known as MI6, has gained traction in many Detective Conan fandoms.

If the first theory were true, then Mary obviously would have been a target considering her relationship with Elena Miyano, and it would not be a surprise if she were able to obtain some information concerning APTX or even a pill of APTX from her. If the second theory were true, then Elena could be a spy that infiltrated the BO on behalf of Mary to obtain information.

Another curious person would be Amanda Huges, Too little information was revealed about her, and why would she have been a target of the BO? Could she also have been a secret intelligent agent or informer passing on information to the British intelligence or FBI?
Last edited by Kor on January 25th, 2018, 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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K.O.R.N
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Re: Why was Mary shrank?

Postby K.O.R.N » January 27th, 2018, 5:38 pm

I think it's hard to know that Mary and Elena are sisters, after all. One person is an agent while the other person is in the organization back then. It's really hard to point out exactly that they're sisters. Mary was targeted possibly for her espionage and her cover was blown, or for some other reasons.

It only seems to me that Mary stopped investigating Tsutomu's "missing" status, or "death" after the Kouji case when she went to Japan for safety. Thus it's hard to believe she's still a spy during these 17 years and got found out recently, within one year to the current timeline.

So...maybe, she's the one who uploaded the info regarding Kouji case on the internet and got found out by them?! is what I think currently.
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