My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

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Zerozaki4869
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My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 17th, 2017, 2:44 am

First things first, the message which Bourbon received was
"I want information on Kudo Shinichi, Time is money(Toki Wa Kanenari), Hurry up Bourbon."................RUM

Now this is an odd construction of the sentence as "Hurry up Bourbon ." is a directive assertion, which really negates the meaning of the idiom. It would have been a proper sentence if the idiom was at the end.(As then it would have meant that why Bourbon is being told to speed up.)

Now this idiom in Romaji is TOKI WA KANENARI>> rearranged a little and we get Wakita Kanenori.
So why is Rum cryptically taking Wakita's name??
Now a likely solution is that somehow Rum was hinting to Wakita, but then the question is why?(If he wants Bourbon to defeat Wakita in the race of getting info about Shinichi, then Hurry up Bourbon would have been just enough.)

The real solution to me is Rum wants Bourbon to gather info on Kudo Shinichi as well as Wakita Kanenori. Now the latter is named in a cryptic way because of obvious reasons. As Wakita being a BO executive would have some allies in BO, if Bourbon got a direct order about gaining info on Wakita, then the message might just be too easy to interpret and Wakita will get warned. But even if this message is leaked, nobody will think it alludes to Wakita and btw the most insightful mind in BO is expected to decode this rearrangement quite easily.)

The sweatdrop on Bourbon after receiving it also shows his dillema, probably he somehow knows Wakita personally and probably thinks that wakita is a possible infiltrator in BO, so when Rum asks him to get dirt on Wakita Bourbon finds himself in the exact same place where Rye found him when he was ordered to kill Scotch.

Given my current speculation, that wakita=Tsutomu, this development might just be the bridge needed to be there to further that Suichi vs Amuro plot.
Kor
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Kor » December 17th, 2017, 3:36 am

So it's not really worth it to argue on something that's based on assumptions that's based on assumptions, but there is one thing that stood out to me here.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:The sweatdrop on Bourbon after receiving it also shows his dillema, probably he somehow knows Wakita personally and probably thinks that wakita is a possible infiltrator in BO, so when Rum asks him to get dirt on Wakita Bourbon finds himself in the exact same place where Rye found him when he was ordered to kill Scotch.


Gosho uses the sweatdrops so often that they may as well not mean shit. I do seriously welcome you to look back at previous files and see just how often he uses them even at places in which they don't seem appropriate at all (it's actually quite amazing). You'll find around 50 of them in some files and over 70 of them in other files.

Also, we have a thread about the Rum arc, so you could use that instead of creating a new thread for every new thought. (I can see on this page three different topics you created about something related to Rum).
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Nemomon
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Nemomon » December 17th, 2017, 3:40 am

Idk.

Using "time is money" as "wakita" would suggest that Bourbon knows Wakita in the first place. But why would Bourbon know him? Also, if Rum really wanted to find anything about Wakita (assuming he's BO's executive), he would do that himself to minimalise the risk that Wakita would find out about that.

Otherwise, he would just send the name normally (assuming Wakita is not a BO). It would be kinda hard to track down a single SMS sent from one person to another, especially for Wakita if he's a BO. Rum probably would know if Wakita has access to a tele company and can read all the SMSs all people in Japan have sent.

Also, if Rum is so afraid of Wakita, why didn't he order killing him? Rum can order killing other BO agents, and Wakita isn't really in hiding...

EDIT: Also, for me the order of sentences is correct. Time is money, Bourbon, so hurry up. The reversed order would look kinda odd to me.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
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When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
Zerozaki4869
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 17th, 2017, 4:02 am

Nemomon wrote:Idk.

Using "time is money" as "wakita" would suggest that Bourbon knows Wakita in the first place. But why would Bourbon know him? Also, if Rum really wanted to find anything about Wakita (assuming he's BO's executive), he would do that himself to minimalise the risk that Wakita would find out about that.

Otherwise, he would just send the name normally (assuming Wakita is not a BO). It would be kinda hard to track down a single SMS sent from one person to another, especially for Wakita if he's a BO. Rum probably would know if Wakita has access to a tele company and can read all the SMSs all people in Japan have sent.

Also, if Rum is so afraid of Wakita, why didn't he order killing him? Rum can order killing other BO agents, and Wakita isn't really in hiding...

EDIT: Also, for me the order of sentences is correct. Time is money, Bourbon, so hurry up. The reversed order would look kinda odd to me.


Because Wakita is in BO??(In cafe Poirot case when Tagaki blurts out stuff about the Wakita's initial case, what was Bourbn's reaction?
Would he? (The person is so secretive that even BO members hardly have heard of him, doesn't even use face to face interviews or voice-calls like Gin, it's fairly evident that this guy will rely on Bourbon to do stuff. Even if you ask the question back to yourself you'll find it self defeating? In that case he could have investigated about Kudo Shinichi all alone ,why involve Bourbon as it was a job that Gin screw up, why should it concern Rum, so Bourbon will always find his demand rather suspicious. Given Bourbon is the person with better insights in BO.)

The thing you're again in a closed loop of why Wakita would know it?(He can know it from several points. How would Rum be sure that Bourbon wasn't with someone from BO or Wakita sharing a drink , somehow there's a chance that a third party might see it accidentally and make Wakita aware of it? Rum relied on the insightful mind of Bourbon.)

Rum is suspicious of Wakita and killing a resource/executive of BO based on suspicion really is not how a logical/sane man being the no.2 of BO is expected to behave. But maybe your and my expectation from Manga are different.
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Nemomon » December 17th, 2017, 1:51 pm

You're becoming very aggresive when someone answers You something that is against Your ideas. You really should calm down, and stop thinking that people are attacking You.

If Wakita is a BO agent, Rum would say his codename instead of a riddle. BO almost never is using names (perhaps even never), but codenames. There is a fair chance that the BO agents among themselves don't know how each other are named. Rum assuming that Bourbon knows Wakita's name (or even him) is illogical. For example Akai was in the BO for a while, gained even a codename, and yet he allowed Calvados to kill himself. It looked as if one codenamed agent never meet another codenamed agent. So, even if Wakita is a BO agent, it doesn't mean that Bourbon must know him.

Like with Kudo in that message, Rum just sends what he wants, and it's your job to find out about who he wants some info. A simple question, how so Rum can be so sure that Bourbon even knows that Shinichi guy? For example I doubt that Tequila ever heard of him, Gin openly says he doesn't remember names, so for him Shinichi doesn't ring a bell as well. Not to mention that having the name in kanji helps a lot in searching for info. Having a riddle instead of kanji makes searching for info harder.

Rum can order investigating Kudo simply because Kudo won't know that someone is gathering info about him. Yet, if he wants to know more about another BO member, he as Rum has a better access to info than Bourbon, and since nobody knows him he could use that to gain info a codenamed agent would never get. Looking himself about some info about another agent would also mean that the risk of having that info being leaked is equal to zero. Giving that order to Bourbon means that there is always a risk that Wakita will find out that someone is gathering info about him. This way Rum also wouldn't need to send a cryptic message that would be understood by Wakita immediately anyway.

And yeah, probably we see the manga in different lights, because people can always be replaced regardless how good they are (like Pisco, or Sherry), and if Rum has some doubts about someone, it always better and safe just to kill them. There are probably many other skilled people within the BO that would take Wakita's place. Why would Rum without hesitation allow killing their top drugs creator - Sherry - a person they needed the most to continue their research, and yet hesitate killing some chef? Senseless to me.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
Zerozaki4869
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 17th, 2017, 9:26 pm

Nemomon wrote:You're becoming very aggresive when someone answers You something that is against Your ideas. You really should calm down, and stop thinking that people are attacking You.

If Wakita is a BO agent, Rum would say his codename instead of a riddle. BO almost never is using names (perhaps even never), but codenames. There is a fair chance that the BO agents among themselves don't know how each other are named. Rum assuming that Bourbon knows Wakita's name (or even him) is illogical. For example Akai was in the BO for a while, gained even a codename, and yet he allowed Calvados to kill himself. It looked as if one codenamed agent never meet another codenamed agent. So, even if Wakita is a BO agent, it doesn't mean that Bourbon must know him.

Like with Kudo in that message, Rum just sends what he wants, and it's your job to find out about who he wants some info. A simple question, how so Rum can be so sure that Bourbon even knows that Shinichi guy? For example I doubt that Tequila ever heard of him, Gin openly says he doesn't remember names, so for him Shinichi doesn't ring a bell as well. Not to mention that having the name in kanji helps a lot in searching for info. Having a riddle instead of kanji makes searching for info harder.

Rum can order investigating Kudo simply because Kudo won't know that someone is gathering info about him. Yet, if he wants to know more about another BO member, he as Rum has a better access to info than Bourbon, and since nobody knows him he could use that to gain info a codenamed agent would never get. Looking himself about some info about another agent would also mean that the risk of having that info being leaked is equal to zero. Giving that order to Bourbon means that there is always a risk that Wakita will find out that someone is gathering info about him. This way Rum also wouldn't need to send a cryptic message that would be understood by Wakita immediately anyway.

And yeah, probably we see the manga in different lights, because people can always be replaced regardless how good they are (like Pisco, or Sherry), and if Rum has some doubts about someone, it always better and safe just to kill them. There are probably many other skilled people within the BO that would take Wakita's place. Why would Rum without hesitation allow killing their top drugs creator - Sherry - a person they needed the most to continue their research, and yet hesitate killing some chef? Senseless to me.


I'm not being aggressive I'm just perplexed that whatever reasons that you're coming up with holds no water.
To assume everybody in the organization knows everybody else by their codenames is just perplexing.(For the maximum part of his stay in the Organization Rye heard, Rum's name only once or twice. But for no.2 of the organization, knowing BO agent's fake identities is not something problematic at all)

The problem with your assertion that Rum doesn't need to send a cryptic message is that it fails to prove a point, why Rum shouldn't.
Suppose Wakita kills Bourbon while Bourbon was snooping on him and gets his mobile phone, and opens the inbox, he would know it was Rum who is suspicious of him not Bourbon, while sending the cryptic message and making telling Bourbon to solve it himself, is like being sure enough to get out of the trouble.

Also your assertion that it won't have any chance of being leaked is quiet a contrived one. Bourbon losing his mobile, it's getting stolen, someone/a BO agent accidentally sees his messages by sheer coincidence. Given the current revelations about Kohji case, Rum should be very much on the defensive. So he'll venture out only after putting his own house in order.

Also why if Wakita is in a disguise with the rat-tooth, it's unlikely people who have seen him once/twice will really identify him. So Rum is telling Bourbon to get some more info on him(Wakita the person) without revealing his codename, so that Bourbon himself won't know why Rum is demanding the info(as he's suspicious of Wakita being a spy or he just think a random third party is poking his nose?)
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby kkuuddoo » December 17th, 2017, 11:21 pm

After reading the main post and comments, I have a few comments

I believe that some BO members still go by their names like kusuda rikumichi, he is a non-code named Bo member, there may be more of them that we still don't know about. We know that the Bo members call each other with code-names unless they don't have one. However, we don't know if they know each other's names or not, so we cannot assume that they don't know each other's names only code-names.

The second point, I think that we might be reading to much into the English phrase " Time is Money". I believe that this phase is quite commonly used, I heard it countless times in school and training. I honestly don't think there is much to the phrase other than making sure Bourbon hurries to find and send him the information he needs. I am not sure if it just a coincidence that it spells the chef's name when translated into Japanese. Rum must know English, he might have traveled, or even lived abroad, and is used to using this phrase. However, I might be wrong and you might be right.

*For all we know the chef might be Rum asking Bourbon to find information about Shinichi after seeing the tweet and the reporters in front of his house. I am not saying that I think Rum is the Wakita, I am just saying that its a possibility since Gosho regards him as a RUM suspect.

Last but not least, I know I might be completely wrong, but I think the Iori has nothing to do with the RUM plot, and he is just there as Mimoji's butler.
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby dccd » December 18th, 2017, 8:03 am

"*For all we know the chef might be Rum asking Bourbon to find information about Shinichi after seeing the tweet and the reporters in front of his house. I am not saying that I think Rum is the Wakita, I am just saying that its a possibility since Gosho regards him as a RUM suspect."
Exactly.

I believe that Gosho was planning to use the idiom from the very beginning at at certain point of the story.
I believe that Gosho had first the idiom in mind and created a name out of it, since its too much of a coincidence if one does it the other way around.

Afaik there are 3 options:

1) Gather info about Shinichi, [and about Wakita], Bourbon - hurry up!
2) Gather info about Shinichi, [and you too, Wakita], Bourbon - hurry up!
3) Gather info about Shinichi, Bourbon.
Here "Time is money" has no hidden in-manga meaning to Bourbon, but simply is a hint to the reader that Wakita=Rum.

Anyone sees another option?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 18th, 2017, 9:52 am

Now there are several pointers which nullifies Wakita=Rum.

Rum's eye injury is permanent while wakita's is temporary in fact Wakita even went as far as to disclose it to Conan. Not Rum, proven by his actions.(As Conan would have seen only a Prosthetic eye but not an injured eye, tbh Wakita is doing so infront of Kogoro to assure him that he's not Rum and at the same time gauging how much Kogoro does know about Rum.)

On the message to Bourbon, the problem is (Hurry up Bourbon is already added and it is grammatically unsound to insert an idiom in middle of the sentence. Idioms are used as sentence ending stuff.) Bourbon is the most insightful person in BO(not the average Joe) so when an idiom is placed in an odd position and after a full blown sentence with a comma and the said idiom can be rearranged into Wakita Kanenori without much chagrin then it's evident that Rum is hinting Bourbon to find stuff about Wakita.

Also Rum disclosing the stuff about his fake name to Bourbon when Rum is shown to be such a secretive person, (that nobody can say how he looks) then it's evident that Rum won't do such childish stuff.
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby dccd » December 18th, 2017, 7:12 pm

Since this discussion kinda derails the message-discussion I´ll answer you in the main-rum-thread.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Swagnarok » December 18th, 2017, 7:35 pm

Rum wouldn't be the first member of the BO to have a catchphrase. Instances of a person saying "A secret makes a woman woman" has actually been used by Conan to track down Vermouth's recent whereabouts.
Time is money could just be something Rum says to motivate his subordinates to pick up the pace with whatever it is they're doing.
Using the phrase as a code for Wakita could be useful in the event that some hostile force took hold of Amuro's phone, but otherwise it's just pointless.
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby blackmoon » December 19th, 2017, 10:45 pm

Hmm... have a gut feeling that the message could be related to the new movie 22 featuring Bourbon that is soon to be released. According to the trailer, Conan asked a question: "Why are you doing this?" to Zero, and there was a reply from him that "there is something\someone he must protect above all price." So... could it be that there is someone or something that is 'dear' to Bourbon being held captive in Rum's hands that he must protect above all price, and there is somehow a time-limit that if he does not fulfill the given mission within a certain time-limit that someone or something will be lost forever? Not an unreasonable assumption in my opinion. ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBuKx48x8vg
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby PhantomWriter » December 19th, 2017, 11:12 pm

blackmoon wrote:Hmm... have a gut feeling that the message could be related to the new movie 22 featuring Bourbon that is soon to be released. According to the trailer, Conan asked a question: "Why are you doing this?" to Zero, and there was a reply from him that "there is something\someone he must protect above all price." So... could it be that there is someone or something that is 'dear' to Bourbon being held captive in Rum's hands that he must protect above all price, and there is somehow a time-limit that if he does not fulfill the given mission within a certain time-limit that someone or something will be lost forever? Not an unreasonable assumption in my opinion. ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBuKx48x8vg


While that would be interesting, the films are separate from the manga and anime and are not considered canon. Along with it, trailers do things like that to build up hype. They include lines that aren't in the film or they splice dialogue together to make them sound as if they're continuous when they're not.
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blackmoon
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby blackmoon » December 20th, 2017, 12:36 am

PhantomWriter wrote:
blackmoon wrote:Hmm... have a gut feeling that the message could be related to the new movie 22 featuring Bourbon that is soon to be released. According to the trailer, Conan asked a question: "Why are you doing this?" to Zero, and there was a reply from him that "there is something\someone he must protect above all price." So... could it be that there is someone or something that is 'dear' to Bourbon being held captive in Rum's hands that he must protect above all price, and there is somehow a time-limit that if he does not fulfill the given mission within a certain time-limit that someone or something will be lost forever? Not an unreasonable assumption in my opinion. ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBuKx48x8vg


While that would be interesting, the films are separate from the manga and anime and are not considered canon. Along with it, trailers do things like that to build up hype. They include lines that aren't in the film or they splice dialogue together to make them sound as if they're continuous when they're not.


Yes, I understand the reasoning and logic, but if either the manga and anime is logical but boring, then it is probably not worth seeing. If, on the other hand, the content is unreasonable and illogical, yet interesting and entertaining (such as Conan skate boarding on the score board on a stadium and surviving countless bombing explosions in one of the movies), then it is still worth watching. So would you not agree that the most important value in either manga or anime is something that grips the reader's interest AND is entertaining enough regardless of it being reasonable or not? ;) I think that plot I mentioned above is interesting and entertaining enough regardless of the possibility of it being the actual script of the movie. ;D
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
Zerozaki4869
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 20th, 2017, 9:48 am

kkuuddoo wrote:After reading the main post and comments, I have a few comments

I believe that some BO members still go by their names like kusuda rikumichi, he is a non-code named Bo member, there may be more of them that we still don't know about. We know that the Bo members call each other with code-names unless they don't have one. However, we don't know if they know each other's names or not, so we cannot assume that they don't know each other's names only code-names.

The second point, I think that we might be reading to much into the English phrase " Time is Money". I believe that this phase is quite commonly used, I heard it countless times in school and training. I honestly don't think there is much to the phrase other than making sure Bourbon hurries to find and send him the information he needs. I am not sure if it just a coincidence that it spells the chef's name when translated into Japanese. Rum must know English, he might have traveled, or even lived abroad, and is used to using this phrase. However, I might be wrong and you might be right.

*For all we know the chef might be Rum asking Bourbon to find information about Shinichi after seeing the tweet and the reporters in front of his house. I am not saying that I think Rum is the Wakita, I am just saying that its a possibility since Gosho regards him as a RUM suspect.

Last but not least, I know I might be completely wrong, but I think the Iori has nothing to do with the RUM plot, and he is just there as Mimoji's butler.


The oddity is not the message but rather its position and necessity. Idioms are sentence enders. Hurry up Bourbon was enough, to get the message. If Rum loves using Idioms, then it should have been placed at the end not in the middle. If Rum has enough knowledge in English to use idioms, it quite likely that he knows how to use one.(Else, he like yoda becomes.) Now Rum given he's the no.2 of BO and has enough intelligence to skirt investigating authorities despite screwing up Kohji case, we can expect this much that if doesn't know how to use an idiom, he'll not use it, in the first place.

Now time is money was written in English, not in Kanji/katakana. So it was Rum's intention to make the phrase, stand out. So why would he want the phrase to stand out, only possible answer is he wants Bourbon's attention to it.

Now given we get Toki wa Kanenari>>Wakita Kanenori we, suddenly get a hint, Rum is demanding info on Kudo Shinichi and Wakita Kanenori.(Given Wakita's nature, he'll blurt out idioms now and then. Possibly this one is a signature idiom of Wakita.) So Bourbon can make the connection and start investigating.

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