My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

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PhantomWriter
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby PhantomWriter » December 20th, 2017, 6:45 pm

Idioms aren't inherently placed at the end of messages/sentences, Zerozaki, at least in English. Idioms are their own chunk that are generally grammatically correct as written, sometimes with a few changes based on context, and their placement in the sentence varies based on the idiom in question. Thus you can say they fight, fought, or are fighting like cats and dogs, with the verb conjugating, but the rest of the phrase is grammatically correct as is and the word order remains consistent within the idiom. If it's about sentences and placement within, "Time is money!" and "Hurry up, Bourbon" are two separate sentences, and the idiom "Time is money" can be used at the beginning of a sentence. ("Time is money and I'm broke.")

It is not the same as Yoda's word order (which is Object-Subject-Verb, with either the accusative or dative being placed in front of the nominative case; your example should be "Or else like Yoda, he becomes.") in sentence structure- that has to do with noun case and the grammar of a given language itself.

Word order rules also vary among languages. While English, Chinese, and Spanish have generally fixed word orders, where the place of the noun generally marks its grammatical relation to the other words in the sentence, other languages don't necessarily operate that way. In Russian, for example, while there are traditional word orders for some phrases and grammatical constructions, it's can be more flexible because the noun ending changes based on its grammatical case. And, even in fixed word order situations like in English, an alteration in word order can denote emphasis. ("This I have to see.")

While I do think it is a hint about Rum, that he incorporated an English idiom into his writing like that, we shouldn't jump the gun on the specific meaning of its incorporation just yet.
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Nemomon
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Nemomon » December 20th, 2017, 8:29 pm

Since Phantom summoned Russian, I will mention that in Polish it is the same. In theory there is a word order in Polish, but practically there isn't. In most of cases it is up to the speaker in what order he will say what he has to say and only a very few constructions sound odd/off (although they're still correct). Not to mention that some of the idioms have some variants that depend on the region of the country they are used.

There is one more thing. Some people like to use foreign sentences/idioms instead of their native versions. For example someone would like to say that pecunia non olet instead of that money doesn't stink, and it will be fine. Maybe for Rum English is same exotic language like for other people Latin is, and that's why he used English phrase instead of its Japanese counterpart. Especially, like I said in my previous message, for me "time is money (so) hurry up, Bourbon" sounds pretty natural.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
Zerozaki4869
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 20th, 2017, 9:57 pm

PhantomWriter wrote:Idioms aren't inherently placed at the end of messages/sentences, Zerozaki, at least in English. Idioms are their own chunk that are generally grammatically correct as written, sometimes with a few changes based on context, and their placement in the sentence varies based on the idiom in question. Thus you can say they fight, fought, or are fighting like cats and dogs, with the verb conjugating, but the rest of the phrase is grammatically correct as is and the word order remains consistent within the idiom. If it's about sentences and placement within, "Time is money!" and "Hurry up, Bourbon" are two separate sentences, and the idiom "Time is money" can be used at the beginning of a sentence. ("Time is money and I'm broke.")

It is not the same as Yoda's word order (which is Object-Subject-Verb, with either the accusative or dative being placed in front of the nominative case; your example should be "Or else like Yoda, he becomes.") in sentence structure- that has to do with noun case and the grammar of a given language itself.

Word order rules also vary among languages. While English, Chinese, and Spanish have generally fixed word orders, where the place of the noun generally marks its grammatical relation to the other words in the sentence, other languages don't necessarily operate that way. In Russian, for example, while there are traditional word orders for some phrases and grammatical constructions, it's can be more flexible because the noun ending changes based on its grammatical case. And, even in fixed word order situations like in English, an alteration in word order can denote emphasis. ("This I have to see.")

While I do think it is a hint about Rum, that he incorporated an English idiom into his writing like that, we shouldn't jump the gun on the specific meaning of its incorporation just yet.


Point taken, but Idioms which draw parallels are generally placed at the end of the sentence. If an idiom is comparing time with money, then first the a statement will elaborate why time is needed and then it will end with time is money. Rum wants info on Kudo Shinichi, asap. So he could have said I demand info on Kudo Shinichi, Hurry up Bourbon. Time is money. Only then it makes sense as I demand the info on Kudo Shinichi isn't expressing the urgent need of the info, it's only expressing the piqued interest of Rum. So a Idiom like "Time is money" will only make sense when the urgency is revealed(Hurry up Bourbon.)

Also it is a code for Burbon(Rum could have written the whole idiom in Katakana/Kanji, like Taimu is Money, but he didn't. He wants Bourbon to notice it, as something else other than a petty idiom.

Why do you think is that?
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Nemomon » December 21st, 2017, 12:48 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Also it is a code for Burbon(Rum could have written the whole idiom in Katakana/Kanji, like Taimu is Money, but he didn't. He wants Bourbon to notice it, as something else other than a petty idiom.

Why do you think is that?


Maybe, or maybe not. Maybe Rum thought that Bourbon is smart enough to understand the idiom in its original language without needing to provide its Japanese counterpart.

But he as well could use it as an irony. For example Latin praesente medico nihil nocet means "when a doctor is present, nothing can harm you". You would want to use it right after a doctor made a mistake and someone got hurt. If one would use an English counterpart, no one would get the irony. But if one used the Latin idiom, then the irony can be seen.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
blackmoon
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby blackmoon » December 22nd, 2017, 1:18 am

Well, from this message to Bourbon, I think somethings can be inferred about Rum.

1. If Rum was in the police department, it would be much easier for him to confirm the identity of Shinichi himself by either exercising his status\authority in or through affiliates in the police department rather than asking Bourbon (a cafe waiter) to do the job for him. Therefore, this reduces the likelihood of Hyoue Kuroda being Rum.

2. Why would Rum request Bourbon to confirm the identity of Shinichi instead of doing so himself? While the Conan Movie is not directly related to the manga plot, something about the plot of the Darkest nightmare is still worth noting. In that movie, Rum sent a female agent to breach into police files to confirm possible undercover agents in BO, and Bourbon was already listed as a suspect. While such suspicion was later erased in the movie, this issue of suspicion towards Bourbon was never brought up and erased in the manga. So, one possibility could be that Rum already began to suspect Bourbon as an undercover agent, and that Rum may already acquired some information about Shinichi collected from another BO agent. Therefore, he sent Bourbon on this mission in order to compare the findings Bourbon submits to him with data collected which he already knew. If Bourbon feeds him false or fake information to protect Shinichi, then it would make him even more suspicious and increase his likelihood of being exposed as an undercover agent.

3. Assuming that IF there is no further 'hidden' implication behind the double redundant message of "Time is money" and "Hurry up Bourbon!" I think we can infer that by stressing the same message twice, Rum may be a bit impatient in character, and a bit of a "pusher." If that were indeed the case, I think we can also rule out anyone with a character of being sly as a fox or someone who is a patient lurker who is willing to extend the fishing line long enough to catch a big fish. Personally, I think the extent Rumi Wakasa went through to test the junior detectives makes her someone who is sly as a fox and patient in waiting.

Then again, I may be entirely wrong in my assumptions. ;D
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
PhantomWriter
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby PhantomWriter » December 22nd, 2017, 5:00 pm

1. Considering that he would have access to the files that aren't open to the general public (such as the Desperate Revival case and other appearances and calls made by Shinichi), since he's higher up than the other members of the First Division of the Tokyo PD, I agree. It's definitely looking less and less likely that Kuroda is Rum. Kuroda's behavior is counterintuitive for Rum, anyway.

2. Again, films are not canon and do not affect the main storyline. Bourbon is not actually suspicious in the manga to the Black Organization. Even Vermouth thinks he's loyal, which is why she insisted on coming along with the Asaca case- she was worried he'd harm Ran and Conan. Her warning him about not doing whatever he pleases is more because members like Gin don't like members who act like that, even if they're otherwise loyal.

What I think is more likely is Rum wanting to utilize Bourbon because Bourbon's carved out a nice little niche. He's connected to Kogoro Mouri, whose daughter is close friends with Kudo and was on that class trip. It probably means that Rum, whoever they are, are not trusted enough for either the Mouris or Kudos to move around without drawing some suspicion, especially if he starts asking specific questions.

3. Even if there is another meaning, I do think Rum could be impatient. Demanding information, even without the other comments, implies some urgency and some speed needed for it. Personally, of the various Rum and the Asaka suspects, it would be either Wakita or Chikara who are the most likely to have that flaw. Wakita is incredibly eager and pushy to get close to Kogoro, along with his actions in 1008. Chikara's method of playing shogi is focused on constantly attacking, like he's impatient. While Wakasa is moving around, too, she's moving more subtly and her testing of Conan is quite cautious. Kuroda, meanwhile, is staying put and does so also during the camping case, sitting back and observing them instead of getting into the thick of things. Iori is also quite patient, staying back and observing for the sake of whom he serves. Mary is the most cautious of all, to the point that she's intentionally trying to prevent nearly anyone from knowing she exists.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: My take on Rum's message To Bourbon

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 23rd, 2017, 9:29 am

PhantomWriter wrote:1. Considering that he would have access to the files that aren't open to the general public (such as the Desperate Revival case and other appearances and calls made by Shinichi), since he's higher up than the other members of the First Division of the Tokyo PD, I agree. It's definitely looking less and less likely that Kuroda is Rum. Kuroda's behavior is counterintuitive for Rum, anyway.

2. Again, films are not canon and do not affect the main storyline. Bourbon is not actually suspicious in the manga to the Black Organization. Even Vermouth thinks he's loyal, which is why she insisted on coming along with the Asaca case- she was worried he'd harm Ran and Conan. Her warning him about not doing whatever he pleases is more because members like Gin don't like members who act like that, even if they're otherwise loyal.

What I think is more likely is Rum wanting to utilize Bourbon because Bourbon's carved out a nice little niche. He's connected to Kogoro Mouri, whose daughter is close friends with Kudo and was on that class trip. It probably means that Rum, whoever they are, are not trusted enough for either the Mouris or Kudos to move around without drawing some suspicion, especially if he starts asking specific questions.

3. Even if there is another meaning, I do think Rum could be impatient. Demanding information, even without the other comments, implies some urgency and some speed needed for it. Personally, of the various Rum and the Asaka suspects, it would be either Wakita or Chikara who are the most likely to have that flaw. Wakita is incredibly eager and pushy to get close to Kogoro, along with his actions in 1008. Chikara's method of playing shogi is focused on constantly attacking, like he's impatient. While Wakasa is moving around, too, she's moving more subtly and her testing of Conan is quite cautious. Kuroda, meanwhile, is staying put and does so also during the camping case, sitting back and observing them instead of getting into the thick of things. Iori is also quite patient, staying back and observing for the sake of whom he serves. Mary is the most cautious of all, to the point that she's intentionally trying to prevent nearly anyone from knowing she exists.


I'll totally concur with you on the first two points. On point three I've something to add. Impatient isn't the correct word to describe Rum, he's rather painstakingly fastidious with his time. His time is very limited and he loathes lackadaisical attitude.

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