Shiho's Attempted Suicide

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Xytan Whitcombe
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Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby Xytan Whitcombe » March 24th, 2017, 1:53 am

We all know that Shiho attempted suicide when captured by the Black Organization and... Well, the rest is history.

I've always viewed Shiho/Ai as a very dark character who perhaps has multiple reasons to end her life and is likely very depressed.

How do you view Ai? Do you see her as suicidal or edgy?
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby Spimer » March 24th, 2017, 4:04 am

She did that because she was convinced that the BO would eventually execute her for her disobedience (she refused to keep researching until they explained why they killed her sister).

Since she was going to die one way or another then she didn't see much loss in killing herself.
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicides

Postby Raspbryl » March 24th, 2017, 5:02 am

Here's the thing about that - she tries AGAIN when she stays on the bus she knows is about to explode. This could easily be linked back to the high anxiety caused by the immense threat she's facing. Part of her might just wants to be free of the tension and she certainly seemed quick to start rationalizing the consequences of her death. I think Conan has remarked at point she's not as strong as she act and on an emotional level he's got a point she's not exactly the poster child for stability in that regard. This also kinda explains why she was kinda clingy on Conan for a while why she may have implied she had feeling for him in certain situations - from personal experience - I know when I was not well and I found something or someone that eased my stress I got real friggen attached to it. I think she's smart enough to realize she's not in the best place emotionally and was smart never to act on feelings like that.

Maybe this is just me projecting but I don't think it conflicts at least. I mean the one person she had in the world was her sister - and you said it - she's dead. Lets say she finds a way to reverse the drugs effects permanently - would she ever take it? WHY? what possible life did she have she's in a hurry to get back to? Her sister was the one with the friends and the normal life - she was VERY clear on that point. What kinda life could she possibly have had locked in a lab conducting research probably non-stop? hell the only reason she ever used the prototype was because the lives of innocents DEMANDED it.

Hypothetical - she has the permanent drug ready and the black organization is out of the way for good.... why would she choose take it? why would she not just wait to grow up again with this new life she's been handed? This is a second chance for her very own normal life started from damn near the very beginning. If she has developed any affection at all for her new life... what possible reason would she have to go back?
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby AkaiMoroboshi » March 24th, 2017, 9:52 am

i view ai as dark character, no one can describes her true face. I loved him since her early appearances, she has made DC story much better. DC cannot went this far without her. Gosho wouldn't enjoyed this kind of success without her (and conan haha)

But gosho hasnt been developing her character since kir arc. The last time DC revolving the story around her was in vermouth arc and that arc is the greatest arc in my opinion.

Ive always think that she has completed the full antitode. But she didn't want to give it to conan because she still has a feeling for him.

I hope she will find her own happiness in the end of the story (although if she supposed to be died, it will be great thought)
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby k11chi » March 24th, 2017, 10:07 am

AkaiMoroboshi wrote:i view ai as dark character, no one can describes her true face. I loved him since her early appearances, she has made DC story much better. DC cannot went this far without her. Gosho wouldn't enjoyed this kind of success without her (and conan haha)

But gosho hasnt been developing her character since kir arc. The last time DC revolving the story around her was in vermouth arc and that arc is the greatest arc in my opinion.

Ive always think that she has completed the full antitode. But she didn't want to give it to conan because she still has a feeling for him.

I hope she will find her own happiness in the end of the story (although if she supposed to be died, it will be great thought)

The story has revolved around Haibara alot even in Bourbon arc, just not in the direct way it used to before it as she's getting more fleshed out than developed since "Subaru" came around. Alot of the things Conan does is to protect Haibara and make her forget about the past by living the life with the DB. Subaru's whole existance revolves around her too.
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby AkaiMoroboshi » March 24th, 2017, 5:05 pm

k11chi wrote:The story has revolved around Haibara alot even in Bourbon arc, just not in the direct way it used to before it as she's getting more fleshed out than developed since "Subaru" came around. Alot of the things Conan does is to protect Haibara and make her forget about the past by living the life with the DB. Subaru's whole existance revolves around her too.


Yeah you're right, it may be she hasnt know about it. Conan never tell the truth about subaru, even in mistery train she didn't know that she was in danger.

But that's main problem of DC,lack of communication
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby Wachi » March 25th, 2017, 8:15 pm

Raspbryl wrote:Here's the thing about that - she tries AGAIN when she stays on the bus she knows is about to explode. This could easily be linked back to the high anxiety caused by the immense threat she's facing. Part of her might just wants to be free of the tension and she certainly seemed quick to start rationalizing the consequences of her death. I think Conan has remarked at point she's not as strong as she act and on an emotional level he's got a point she's not exactly the poster child for stability in that regard. This also kinda explains why she was kinda clingy on Conan for a while why she may have implied she had feeling for him in certain situations - from personal experience - I know when I was not well and I found something or someone that eased my stress I got real friggen attached to it. I think she's smart enough to realize she's not in the best place emotionally and was smart never to act on feelings like that.

I have to disagree. If she was a weak person and couldn't bear the pressure of being a target, she would have killed herself the day after she got shot by Gin. Instead she only tried when she thought her life could put in danger the people around her because she can't accept other people dying because of her (like her sister).
Also I think that she took the drug not only because she was going to die anyway, but in order not to give them the power to control her life ( and death) anymore.

Hypothetical - she has the permanent drug ready and the black organization is out of the way for good.... why would she choose take it? why would she not just wait to grow up again with this new life she's been handed? This is a second chance for her very own normal life started from damn near the very beginning. If she has developed any affection at all for her new life... what possible reason would she have to go back?

I have a totally different point of view.
First of all, Haibara Ai is not a real person, but it's a mask she had to create in order to run away from BO and so it represents her past. In order to live as Haibara, she would need to keep hiding to the other her real self because she's not a real kid!
Secondly, taking the permanent antidote and return to her real body doesn't mean she's going back to her past life! She couldn't go back even if she wanted because her past life doesn't even exist anymore as BO has labeled her as a traitor! Instead returning Shiho would really mean beginning a new life as a free person, also she wouldn't be alone because both Shinichi and Agasa (and Shuuichi) would keep support her!
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby Swagnarok » March 25th, 2017, 11:01 pm

I think you're reading too much into this.
Above all else, the attempted suicide was a plot point to explain why she would ingest APTX-4869. She was valuable enough to the Organization that they probably wouldn't have killed her if it was possible to still make use of her brains. If they did decide to kill her and if they chose to do so by administering that drug to her, they would've done so in a setting where they'd be able to confirm her demise without any high likelihood of mistake or of her escaping, in which case there'd be no Haibara.
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Ryan Jackson: African-American CIA agent and director of CIA operations in Japan involving the Black Organisation. He was once good friends with Ethan Hondou, who taught him how to charge at a gunman without getting hit. He was an army chaplain who served in Iraq, seeing combat on numerous occasions, most notably during the Second Battle of Fallujah. He's been a lifelong resident of Metairie, LA, and he's married with several children. He graduated from Loyola University Maryland. His favorite saying is, "It is sometimes necessary to lie damnably in the interests of the nation."
Elena and Atsushi Miyano: Faked their deaths and now secretly lead a "White Organisation" against the Men in Black. Parents of Akemi, Shiho, and Satoshi Miyano.
ELXR-0666: A drug developed by the BO that can revive the dead, the ultimate aim of their research and development of APTX-4869.
Nancy Akechi: Ran Mouri, revived by ELXR-0666 and then shrunken to a 7/8 year old by APTX-4869. Lives with Conan and her two parents, who are unaware of her true identity. Is the sixth member of the "Detective Boys".
Cognac: Shinichi Kudo made a bargain with Elena Miyano: Join the BO in exchange for the drug that could revive Ran from the dead. He became a Black Crow under the codename Cognac, specialising in using his detective skills to investigate matters important to the Organisation.
Antichrist: An ancient hominid species very closely related to Homo Sapiens. They were biologically indistinguishable from human beings, except for the presence of the "Altar Organ", an internal bodily organ that allowed them to replace one of their other body parts, even the brain, with a corresponding one belonging to another person upon consuming said replacement body part. This species went extinct long ago, but they are relevant to the BO's plans today.
Yoko Okino: Boss of the Black Organisation upon the death of Korn, who in turn succeeded Pisco. Codename: Cabernet Sauvignon. Her mother was a member of the BO Council, and she raised her daughter to worship the Ancient Canaanite gods. Yoko's philosophy was also shaped by something that she witnessed as a child, the bullying of one of her classmates that led to suicide. She represents the "young blood" of the Organisation, and her religious fervour sets her apart from the Council, which consists of elderly and middle-aged bureaucrats and businessmen. She sees them as heretics.
Mezcal: Biochemist who assumed control of the APTX-4869 project upon Sherry's defection. He joined the project approximately one year before the events of Episodes 128-129 and the two of them worked closely in developing the drug.
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby Swagnarok » March 25th, 2017, 11:08 pm

Spoiler:
This conversation has got me thinking, though. The reason that Haibara's unable to develop a permanent cure for Conan is that she (supposedly, at least) doesn't possess the complete data on the Apotoxin. It's possible that within this current Rum Arc and with the relatively recent introduction of possible shrunken MI6 agent "Mary" she may come to obtain the drug's complete data sometime soon in the manga.
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"Ey, babe, I found five dollahs in the bottom of a dumpsta somewhere. Lemme treat you to some McDonald's and then we can head on over to my place, how 'bout dat?"
Spoiler:
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Character key for my DC stories:
Yoshiteru Nichimura: Japanese-American CIA agent, Hidemi's colleague and former boyfriend. Known among the ranks of the CIA as "Grim Reaper", from his skull-like face and his deadly short-range combat skills. He has a very good fast draw and he's very highly proficient in the Israeli martial art form called Krav Maga. However, he has no talent as a sniper, and he doesn't bother trying to be one.
Ryan Jackson: African-American CIA agent and director of CIA operations in Japan involving the Black Organisation. He was once good friends with Ethan Hondou, who taught him how to charge at a gunman without getting hit. He was an army chaplain who served in Iraq, seeing combat on numerous occasions, most notably during the Second Battle of Fallujah. He's been a lifelong resident of Metairie, LA, and he's married with several children. He graduated from Loyola University Maryland. His favorite saying is, "It is sometimes necessary to lie damnably in the interests of the nation."
Elena and Atsushi Miyano: Faked their deaths and now secretly lead a "White Organisation" against the Men in Black. Parents of Akemi, Shiho, and Satoshi Miyano.
ELXR-0666: A drug developed by the BO that can revive the dead, the ultimate aim of their research and development of APTX-4869.
Nancy Akechi: Ran Mouri, revived by ELXR-0666 and then shrunken to a 7/8 year old by APTX-4869. Lives with Conan and her two parents, who are unaware of her true identity. Is the sixth member of the "Detective Boys".
Cognac: Shinichi Kudo made a bargain with Elena Miyano: Join the BO in exchange for the drug that could revive Ran from the dead. He became a Black Crow under the codename Cognac, specialising in using his detective skills to investigate matters important to the Organisation.
Antichrist: An ancient hominid species very closely related to Homo Sapiens. They were biologically indistinguishable from human beings, except for the presence of the "Altar Organ", an internal bodily organ that allowed them to replace one of their other body parts, even the brain, with a corresponding one belonging to another person upon consuming said replacement body part. This species went extinct long ago, but they are relevant to the BO's plans today.
Yoko Okino: Boss of the Black Organisation upon the death of Korn, who in turn succeeded Pisco. Codename: Cabernet Sauvignon. Her mother was a member of the BO Council, and she raised her daughter to worship the Ancient Canaanite gods. Yoko's philosophy was also shaped by something that she witnessed as a child, the bullying of one of her classmates that led to suicide. She represents the "young blood" of the Organisation, and her religious fervour sets her apart from the Council, which consists of elderly and middle-aged bureaucrats and businessmen. She sees them as heretics.
Mezcal: Biochemist who assumed control of the APTX-4869 project upon Sherry's defection. He joined the project approximately one year before the events of Episodes 128-129 and the two of them worked closely in developing the drug.
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby Raspbryl » March 26th, 2017, 1:45 am

Swagnarok wrote:I think you're reading too much into this.
Above all else, the attempted suicide was a plot point to explain why she would ingest APTX-4869. She was valuable enough to the Organization that they probably wouldn't have killed her if it was possible to still make use of her brains. If they did decide to kill her and if they chose to do so by administering that drug to her, they would've done so in a setting where they'd be able to confirm her demise without any high likelihood of mistake or of her escaping, in which case there'd be no Haibara.


Reading too much into things is quite literally in my job description - I would not be a responsible adult if I was lax on the details. My team depends on that - I cant let them down.

Wachi wrote:I have to disagree. If she was a weak person and couldn't bear the pressure of being a target, she would have killed herself the day after she got shot by Gin. Instead she only tried when she thought her life could put in danger the people around her because she can't accept other people dying because of her (like her sister).
Also I think that she took the drug not only because she was going to die anyway, but in order not to give them the power to control her life ( and death) anymore.


Protecting others was a pretty thin justification - if she really cared about protection having them watch her die in an explosion would not be doing them any favors. Suicide is an almost inherently selfish act no matter how you slice it. I'm also really not sure I buy that as a serious motivator due the very short window she'd had with them up until that point. Also by the point she was shot she hadn't been under the pressure of being a target nearly as long.

Wachi wrote:I have a totally different point of view.
First of all, Haibara Ai is not a real person, but it's a mask she had to create in order to run away from BO and so it represents her past. In order to live as Haibara, she would need to keep hiding to the other her real self because she's not a real kid!
Secondly, taking the permanent antidote and return to her real body doesn't mean she's going back to her past life! She couldn't go back even if she wanted because her past life doesn't even exist anymore as BO has labeled her as a traitor! Instead returning Shiho would really mean beginning a new life as a free person, also she wouldn't be alone because both Shinichi and Agasa (and Shuuichi) would keep support her!


The whole point of the Hypothetical is that the organization is GONE first off.

My point was - Whats stopping her from doing that as the child she is now is my point? what is the advantage? all those things are still true if she stays as she is. What does being "Real" even mean? They managed to enroll her in school just fine after all this goes public she could get any of the proper paperwork drawn up - maybe she takes her old name back maybe she doesn't... but why not keep the more youthful body? Hell by the time she's an adult again she could just use the old paperwork and wave it off as just looking really young for her age. What is the logic in growing back up immediately instead of presumably just growing back up naturally?

Kudo has the excuse of getting back to his old life and Ran - Hibara seems to her new life well enough by this stage. I would love for someone to make a convincing argument she'd want her old life back over this new one but I'm not sure I'll ever see it.
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby MeiTanteixX » March 26th, 2017, 6:16 am

Wachi wrote:
Raspbryl wrote:Here's the thing about that - she tries AGAIN when she stays on the bus she knows is about to explode. This could easily be linked back to the high anxiety caused by the immense threat she's facing. Part of her might just wants to be free of the tension and she certainly seemed quick to start rationalizing the consequences of her death. I think Conan has remarked at point she's not as strong as she act and on an emotional level he's got a point she's not exactly the poster child for stability in that regard. This also kinda explains why she was kinda clingy on Conan for a while why she may have implied she had feeling for him in certain situations - from personal experience - I know when I was not well and I found something or someone that eased my stress I got real friggen attached to it. I think she's smart enough to realize she's not in the best place emotionally and was smart never to act on feelings like that.

I have to disagree. If she was a weak person and couldn't bear the pressure of being a target, she would have killed herself the day after she got shot by Gin. Instead she only tried when she thought her life could put in danger the people around her because she can't accept other people dying because of her (like her sister).
Also I think that she took the drug not only because she was going to die anyway, but in order not to give them the power to control her life ( and death) anymore.

Hypothetical - she has the permanent drug ready and the black organization is out of the way for good.... why would she choose take it? why would she not just wait to grow up again with this new life she's been handed? This is a second chance for her very own normal life started from damn near the very beginning. If she has developed any affection at all for her new life... what possible reason would she have to go back?

I have a totally different point of view.
First of all, Haibara Ai is not a real person, but it's a mask she had to create in order to run away from BO and so it represents her past. In order to live as Haibara, she would need to keep hiding to the other her real self because she's not a real kid!
Secondly, taking the permanent antidote and return to her real body doesn't mean she's going back to her past life! She couldn't go back even if she wanted because her past life doesn't even exist anymore as BO has labeled her as a traitor! Instead returning Shiho would really mean beginning a new life as a free person, also she wouldn't be alone because both Shinichi and Agasa (and Shuuichi) would keep support her!

I agree with this.
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby Wachi » March 26th, 2017, 10:47 am

Protecting others was a pretty thin justification - if she really cared about protection having them watch her die in an explosion would not be doing them any favors. Suicide is an almost inherently selfish act no matter how you slice it. I'm also really not sure I buy that as a serious motivator due the very short window she'd had with them up until that point. Also by the point she was shot she hadn't been under the pressure of being a target nearly as long.

I think it's a pretty strong reason, but it's just my opinion. Anyway, we are talking about a person who grew up in a criminal organization, you could expect nobody has ever told her how precious is a human life and I'm pretty sure she tends to think her own life doesn't have much value, or at least less value than the others since she was an accomplice of those people. According to me, that's the reason why, when she is in a critical situation, she thinks killing herself (or let Vermouth kill her) is a good way of protecting other people.

The whole point of the Hypothetical is that the organization is GONE first off.

My point was - Whats stopping her from doing that as the child she is now is my point? what is the advantage? all those things are still true if she stays as she is. What does being "Real" even mean? They managed to enroll her in school just fine after all this goes public she could get any of the proper paperwork drawn up - maybe she takes her old name back maybe she doesn't... but why not keep the more youthful body? Hell by the time she's an adult again she could just use the old paperwork and wave it off as just looking really young for her age. What is the logic in growing back up immediately instead of presumably just growing back up naturally?


She is a 18-years-old girl. Maybe I'm taking this too personally but..well, for example, I think I've done a lot of mistakes in my life and I could do a lot of thing much better than I actually did, but if you give me the chance of going back and restart my life, I would never accept! Why? Because I grow up! I'm not a kid anymore, my wishes, dreams and goals are different from that of a child! That's what I mean when I say "real".
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby Raspbryl » March 31st, 2017, 1:51 am

Wachi wrote:She is a 18-years-old girl. Maybe I'm taking this too personally but..well, for example, I think I've done a lot of mistakes in my life and I could do a lot of thing much better than I actually did, but if you give me the chance of going back and restart my life, I would never accept! Why? Because I grow up! I'm not a kid anymore, my wishes, dreams and goals are different from that of a child! That's what I mean when I say "real".


If i could reset with my memories intact I would... because I know what it is to live a life where nobody gives a damn about you - no family - no friends - you are the only person you can rely on. If I could start over with all I know now? hell yes I would take it... look how Happy Hibara is with her second chance... I don't think she'd ever give it up - I know I wouldn't not if I was truly content with things for a change. Yeah my goals are different now but the benefit of being 28 is primarily one of perspective.
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby Wachi » March 31st, 2017, 11:05 am

Raspbryl wrote:
Wachi wrote:She is a 18-years-old girl. Maybe I'm taking this too personally but..well, for example, I think I've done a lot of mistakes in my life and I could do a lot of thing much better than I actually did, but if you give me the chance of going back and restart my life, I would never accept! Why? Because I grow up! I'm not a kid anymore, my wishes, dreams and goals are different from that of a child! That's what I mean when I say "real".


If i could reset with my memories intact I would... because I know what it is to live a life where nobody gives a damn about you - no family - no friends - you are the only person you can rely on. If I could start over with all I know now? hell yes I would take it... look how Happy Hibara is with her second chance... I don't think she'd ever give it up - I know I wouldn't not if I was truly content with things for a change. Yeah my goals are different now but the benefit of being 28 is primarily one of perspective.

But this is your opinion, because I wouldn't.
Since we are talking about opinions, I guess there isn't a right answer..
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Re: Shiho's Attempted Suicide

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 31st, 2017, 3:25 pm

Wachi wrote:Since we are talking about opinions, I guess there isn't a right answer..


And once you've realized/determined that...

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You've taken a step into a larger world. :) 8-)
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