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jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Random question, for the people who think that Rumi is Vermouth, do you also think that Rumi is Asaka? (And therefore that Vermouth is Asaka?)

I believe Meitantei has said that while he thinks Rumi is Vermouth, she is not Asaka. As for other proponents of the theory, I don't know—so step on up and answer, if you care to do so.

MeiTanteixX wrote:

RucyL wrote:

Themaninarmor wrote:

MeiTanteixX wrote:

Themaninarmor wrote:The missing fragment become a clue... So it means if she found it in scene it means the code will only be "Mascara".

I think it's too weird of a coincidence that they look identical.

Who says she had to have found it right in the open? Or that Kohji is a magician who can make it disappear out of existence? It was still somewhere in that room, but hidden(so that the message would work). The guy who died in File 948-950 hid his shards in the sink.

I mean if she found the letter u, then why she didn't found the "mascara" part? okay let's say she could manage to find and brought only the U part!?

Maybe the "U" wasn't part of the dying message from the very begining, and was just near the mirror, but not hidden. That way then message would have being just "mascara".

As for the meaning of of it, I don't know, but I have a few options:
1- The obvious one: The culprit was wearing mascara.
2- Improbable: The culprit was wearing a mask (mascara is spanish for mask, idk why would Kouji know it, but hey, if Conan knows oro is gold in italian, why not?)
3- Almost stupid but makes a little sense: "Mr. Asaca", meaning Asaca is a man.

These are all stupid theories that are going to be wrong, but it's not like I can think something better.

Interesting idea. But that's still a bit iffy, because it doesn't make sense that Kohji would cut the "U" out when it's not a part of the message(regardless if it was close to the mirror or not). Or maybe Rumi cut it out to mess with the message intentionally?

I was just wondering if the 'u' could have been cut out deliberately in the shape of a shogi tile and therefore have an additional / different meaning... It's just that, given the most popular theories for the object in Rumi's pocket being either the glass fragment or the shogi tile, then is it possible that the similarity in shape is not coincidental?

I don't know anything about shogi though and there doesn't seem to be any character that looks similar to the letter 'u'. It would also be a pretty impressive feat for a dying man (although...this is Conan after all where dying people frequently come up with amazing dying messages). On the other hand, it would make sense for someone like Kohji to give a shogi-related hint since it is something so familiar to him. maybe it is possible also that there is something else inscribed on the other side of the glass fragment?

Just throwing out more ideas into this already complex web of theories. :p

caribou wrote:I was just wondering if the 'u' could have been cut out deliberately in the shape of a shogi tile and therefore have an additional / different meaning... It's just that, given the most popular theories for the object in Rumi's pocket being either the glass fragment or the shogi tile, then is it possible that the similarity in shape is not coincidental?

I don't know anything about shogi though and there doesn't seem to be any character that looks similar to the letter 'u'. It would also be a pretty impressive feat for a dying man (although...this is Conan after all where dying people frequently come up with amazing dying messages). On the other hand, it would make sense for someone like Kohji to give a shogi-related hint since it is something so familiar to him. maybe it is possible also that there is something else inscribed on the other side of the glass fragment?

Just throwing out more ideas into this already complex web of theories. :p

Wow, you have some progressive ideas. That's very possible, if the object is the "u" shard. Why else involve the shape of the object as a plot-point? I agree with you, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

So this could be Kohji's official way of saying that the message is tied to Shogi(which confirms some of my speculations regarding the message). Since it's the US however, and since he was gonna play Chess(more widely known in the west), it's also possible that he was alluding to Chess, but "Shogi-piece shape" was his easiest way to connect the puzzle solver to chess(Shogi's "sibling-game"). That would be a smart way for Gosho to also portray his two main interests through the dying message at the same time.

jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Random question, for the people who think that Rumi is Vermouth, do you also think that Rumi is Asaka? (And therefore that Vermouth is Asaka?)

If so, do you think that Okiya/Akai is aware of this?

If so, why do you think that Okiya/Akai thinks that Asaka would try to get close to Masumi (as mentioned in the Asaca Song case) ?

No, Rumi is an "Asaka" red-herring if she's Vermouth. (what DCUniverseAficionado said)

No, I think that he's under the impression that Asaka is Rum.

Because:
1. James told him about Mary's and Sera's arrival in Japan during Detective Nocturne(File 799), right when Amuro found out about her returning to Japan. He's worried that maybe Asaka attacked Mary as a result of Tsutomu's involvement and might approach Sera in order to find her.
2. He's worried that Asaka(BO) might attempt to get close to Sera, now that he knows that at least Vermouth knows about her(after mystery train), in order to confirm Bourbon's investigation.
3. Gosho forced Subaru's words so that it could make Mary look like Asaka. (unlikely)

MeiTanteixX wrote: Wow, you have some progressive ideas. That's very possible, if the object is the "u" shard. Why else involve the shape of the object as a plot-point? I agree with you, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

That's not a plot point.

Kor wrote:

MeiTanteixX wrote: Wow, you have some progressive ideas. That's very possible, if the object is the "u" shard. Why else involve the shape of the object as a plot-point? I agree with you, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

That's not a plot point.

It is... it became the question of the latest chapter.

MeiTanteixX wrote:

RucyL wrote:

Themaninarmor wrote:The missing fragment become a clue... So it means if she found it in scene it means the code will only be "Mascara".

Maybe the "U" wasn't part of the dying message from the very begining, and was just near the mirror, but not hidden. That way then message would have being just "mascara".

As for the meaning of of it, I don't know, but I have a few options:
1- The obvious one: The culprit was wearing mascara.
2- Improbable: The culprit was wearing a mask (mascara is spanish for mask, idk why would Kouji know it, but hey, if Conan knows oro is gold in italian, why not?)
3- Almost stupid but makes a little sense: "Mr. Asaca", meaning Asaca is a man.

These are all stupid theories that are going to be wrong, but it's not like I can think something better.

Interesting idea. But that's still a bit iffy, because it doesn't make sense that Kohji would cut the "U" out when it's not a part of the message(regardless if it was close to the mirror or not). Or maybe Rumi cut it out to mess with the message intentionally?

Maybe he didn't cut it, maybe he just broke it. The mirror appears to have a metal border, and it doesn't look like it has marks of trying to cut it. So, in order to had cut it like that, he would have to take the glass out of the border, then cut it, and then, because of some reason, put the remaing glasses again in the border, like a puzzle. I don't believe he was dying and putting pieces of glass again within the border.

I think he just hit the mirror with the scissors and took the pieces that he needed. This way, he could not predict how the breaks in the glass would be, and just by chance it broke separating the U.

MeiTanteixX wrote:

Kor wrote:

MeiTanteixX wrote: Wow, you have some progressive ideas. That's very possible, if the object is the "u" shard. Why else involve the shape of the object as a plot-point? I agree with you, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

That's not a plot point.

It is... it became the question of the latest chapter.

No, it isn't, because it doesn't answer the function of what a plot point is or should be. These are two words that actually mean something in critical analysis. Not only does said event not change the direction of the plot in any way, it's also not really informative to the reader other than "this character has some unidentified item in her pocket".
If you feel like being super generous about plot points as far as it goes with Rumi then you could say that Rumi's introduction is a plot point, or Rumi meeting Kuroda is a plot point, or Haibara's BOdar being triggered in Rumi's and Kuroda's presence is a plot point, but just because Gosho is telling you Rumi has some vague item in her pocket doesn't really make it a plot point. Rumi is already a "mysterious" character, so it's not like this item in her pocket changes her said "mysterious" status in any shape or form or how we view her role in the story.

RucyL wrote:Maybe he didn't cut it, maybe he just broke it. The mirror appears to have a metal border, and it doesn't look like it has marks of trying to cut it. So, in order to had cut it like that, he would have to take the glass out of the border, then cut it, and then, because of some reason, put the remaing glasses again in the border, like a puzzle. I don't believe he was dying and putting pieces of glass again within the border.

I think he just hit the mirror with the scissors and took the pieces that he needed. This way, he could not predict how the breaks in the glass would be, and just by chance it broke separating the U.

That's what I thought (and think) is the most logical way of getting glass shards out of the object also. If I were him (I hope I am never in a situation where I am dying from a strange poison...) I would grab the scissors in my fist and carefully hit the mirror at points where I think the shard-lines would go to the letters that I want. I don't think running water would even be needed for that.

But then I saw the panel showing the grip marks on Kohji's hand, and the grip marks suggest that he was holding the pair of scissors in the way you would normally like if you were cutting paper or something. So I think he probably did hit the mirror first but because he didn't get the exact shards that he wanted he had to "trim" them under the running water. The "u" fragment may have been especially hard to get out neatly cos it was in between 2 other letters.

MeiTanteixX wrote:Wow, you have some progressive ideas. That's very possible, if the object is the "u" shard. Why else involve the shape of the object as a plot-point? I agree with you, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

So this could be Kohji's official way of saying that the message is tied to Shogi(which confirms some of my speculations regarding the message). Since it's the US however, and since he was gonna play Chess(more widely known in the west), it's also possible that he was alluding to Chess, but "Shogi-piece shape" was his easiest way to connect the puzzle solver to chess(Shogi's "sibling-game"). That would be a smart way for Gosho to also portray his two main interests through the dying message at the same time.

Thanks, it is what it is for now, just an idea.

What are some of your speculations regarding the message (making it shogi-related)?

Sorry for the double post, I should remember to combine all quotes in one post in future. ^^;

RucyL wrote:I don't believe he was dying and putting pieces of glass again within the border.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on that. Putting the remainder of the mirror back within the border is more crucial than you think. For him to be sure that people know where the mirror came from(and know about the original text "put on mascara"), he has to put it back, since it's more recognizable that way. Also, the border helps the mirror from breaking easier, so I think it's safe to assume that Kohji took it all into consideration.

caribou wrote:Thanks, it is what it is for now, just an idea.

What are some of your speculations regarding the message (making it shogi-related)?

Sorry for the double post, I should remember to combine all quotes in one post in future. ^^;

Well, going by the assumption that kohji was trying to connect the message to Chess, something I noticed(which I mentioned in my Kohji case discussion) is that the the numbers in chessboard fits with with the number of letters in the message(chessboard is 8x8, and the message is 8 letters). There were two overall style of decoding that I thought of.

The first is that something about their intended position will reveal the true order of the letters. For that to even make sense, there's info missing, and whether it's something he anticipated Asaka would solve(who might have that missing info) or not, no one would be able to solve it yet.

The second one is that the letters in the message are key to the real letters he was trying to deliver, and that chess is the way to find them. One way I thought of was by distibuting the letters with a position(a chess piece), based on the number they have in the alphabet. After that, I got stuck (in the end, more info/clues is still needed)

Either way, I'll have to wait until Conan mentions its similarity to a shogi piece. Only then can we be more certain that the message might be connected to Shogi/chess.

Kor wrote:No, it isn't, because it doesn't answer the function of what a plot point is or should be. These are two words that actually mean something in critical analysis.

You name it for me then. The point still came across.

Since the "unknown passerby" wasn't addressed in File 991, and the blind man seems to be telling the truth about not hearing anyone leave the crime scene, I'm gonna assume that Iori was the person that passed by Conan and that observed the corpse and crime scene before leaving with his silent steps.
(Again with his assassin-like behavior)

Why would Iori stumble upon the crime scene though? This path by the northern exit only leads to the toilets, while Iori must've been on his way to meet Momiji, so even if he was using the northern exit to do that, he would have no reason to randomly go along that path to spot the body. I'd rather think that it was just some flavor text from Gosho.

Let's keep this "unknown passerby" in mind for now, but immediately assuming that it was Iori is jumping to conclusions far too quickly imo, as is that Iori would just ignore a dead body and do nothing about it, since so far there is nothing to indicate that he is actually evil or even main plot relevant.

Serinox wrote:Why would Iori stumble upon the crime scene though? This path by the northern exit only leads to the toilets, while Iori must've been on his way to meet Momiji, so even if he was using the northern exit to do that, he would have no reason to randomly go along that path to spot the body.

Unless he heard "the groan"/"the old man's reaction" on his way to the exit.

Serinox wrote:I'd rather think that it was just some flavor text from Gosho.

What are you referring to here?

Serinox wrote:Let's keep this "unknown passerby" in mind for now, but immediately assuming that it was Iori is jumping to conclusions far too quickly imo

Even after we have established his presence-hiding tendencies? ok, I'm going with my reasoning on this though, until further notice.

MeiTanteixX wrote:Since the "unknown passerby" wasn't addressed in File 991, and the blind man seems to be telling the truth about not hearing anyone leave the crime scene, I'm gonna assume that Iori was the person that passed by Conan and that observed the corpse and crime scene before leaving with his silent steps.
(Again with his assassin-like behavior)

are you sure those aren't just super butler powers?
all this really adds is that once again, someone could not sense his presence

jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:all this really adds is that once again, someone could not sense his presence

And that he ignored a corpse in order to not get involved.