Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
vaibhavgupte

Posts:
79

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

Kor wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 2:16 pm
vaibhavgupte wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 10:55 am
Firstly I am sure gosho didnt have
kuroda and rumi's memory different by mistake.
he wont do it for such important kohji mystery.
In the beach flashback case, Gosho proved just how much he can mess up memories and flashbacks, which is why I actually don't have much faith in him getting these sort of things exactly right. Conan remembers from the case things that he wasn't around to witness or hear. In an ideal world, our mystery writer would be perfect, but Gosho isn't.

Here are some of my favorite "Gosho forgot Conan isn't around to witness it moments:

First let's start with something that was indicated a bit before the flashback in chapter 905:

Image

Only problem is, there is no indication in the flashback that Ran was next to Shinichi and Masumi for this exchange. We simply don't see her near them when this happens. (in fact, the final appearance of child Ran is on page 9 in the final chapter of the flashback).

Next, we have the glimpses of memories that Conan had in chapter 969. Such as:

1)

Image

But throughout the flashback, Mary's clearly wearing a shirt.

Image

2)

Image

Since Akai asks "who are you", it's logical to assume that Conan remembers when Akai asked him that. But in the corresponding scene in the actual flashback, it's actually like this:

Image

3)

Shinichi wasn't seemingly next to the Akais when Shuukichi said what Conan remembers above.

Image

Also I'd like to add to this that the dialogue isn't 100% the same between the two memories too

Image

Image

4)

As for Mary's shinigami comments, which were said at the start of 972, there's once again no indication that Shinichi's anywhere near them to hear it. Shinichi would need to be right in front of her in order to witness this, but he only first appears in page 10.

Image



Lastly, in the beach flashback, Conan remembers at the end of chapter of 974:

Image

But the only spot in the entire case where Shuukichi says "mary-kaa-san" happens in chapter 972, page 3, where, again, Shinichi isn't actually near the Akais to hear Shuukichi saying that.

Image


Some of this inconsistent memory is between two cases that were written one after the other, and some of it is within the very same case. So if you were to ask me "can we completely trust Gosho to not screw up memories of characters and present them completely consistently", I'd say no, it's quite possible for Gosho to screw up these sort of things.
I can understand you kor that gosho can screw up.
he ia a human being after all.
but I do think that here in magician of ripples case
screwing up in dialogues doesnt mean thst much they arent relayed directly to rum mystery.
dialogues like " you are magician"
" you are possessed " theur memories can be screwed up.

this definitely leaves a posibility that same happened with
kuroda 's memory of kohji .
but to make it a strng arguement . you have to show mistakes from scenes which were extremely important to plot . its possible but very less liely.

if you remember the small detail from vermouth arc gosho gave that jodie's pictures were actually photographs of vermouths picture .those rough edges.
thus was mimute detail which was very well handled by gosho.
so my conclusion is that in plot relevant things gosho will be extremely careful though still erare mistakes can happen.
I am not denying.
but your all examples arent important to plot
not even mentioned again in any case. so being less
careful here is okay.
Kor
Administrator

Posts:
3000

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Kor »

vaibhavgupte wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 2:28 pm
but I do think that here in magician of ripples case
screwing up in dialogues doesnt mean thst much they arent relayed directly to rum mystery.
dialogues like " you are magician"
" you are possessed " theur memories can be screwed up.
This isn't just about dialogue lines. It's a string of inconsistencies, both textual and visual, that simply don't make sense in the context we were given.
but to make it a strng arguement . you have to show mistakes from scenes which were extremely important to plot . its possible but very less liely.
Not really, though. There's no established law in this franchise that Gosho will never make mistakes in plot important issues. If anything, it's pure wishful thinking. Besides, the beach flashback case was important to the plot. Gosho spent many cases to build it up.
but your all examples arent important to plot
not even mentioned again in any case. so being less
careful here is okay.
They're not mentioned again in any case because the beach flashback was the culmination of all the previous "hints" leading to the flashback. You can likewise say that after the Rum confrontation, any previous mistakes won't be mentioned again either. Everything can become less important after it has served its importance.
Image
Reader

Posts:
50

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Reader »

Irrespective of who is right though,
@kor,
Your counter argument was very thorough. I noticed none of those things (because they are less plot relevant maybe, but anyway). My point is, is that I keep visiting this forum for such extensive discussions. Will be looking forward for more. :D
vaibhavgupte

Posts:
79

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

Max1996 wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 1:49 pm
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 2:11 am
Regarding the APTX list on Rumi's laptop, an APTX list can be screen-shotted, scanned, made into a pdf by the various spies infiltrating BO.
Biggest hint that Rumi is not BO is Haibara's cautionary words regarding Rumi. (Don't badmouth her.)
[Haibara isn't a fool. She in that case was making an argument that how Rumi could be Rum in her mind-space, so even if she thought Rumi is not Rum but the chance of Rumi being another BO agent would seem pretty high. Yet she is completely fine in letting Rumi around her, which means Haibara thinks Rumi is not BO.)
What possible reasons are there for Haibara to trust Rumi?
Most interesting and importsnt question.
I am also confused since we dont have any hints regarding this.
but I think gosho will tell us later . he keeps on giving hints.
this haibara trust on wakasa is similar to conan trust om subaru earlier.
but here there are no hints as to what their relation could be.
two mahor possibilities:
1) rumi is working in or was working in bo where she met haibara and from their relationship haibara knows she isnt a danger.
2)she could be a relative of her thus has aptx list prb got from atsshi. idk
these are pure guesses. no hints so far.
she connects haibara to kohji.

But I agree with zerozaki that haibara trusting rumi is a pure sign that she atleast isnt rum.

If anybody has anyinteresting theoy here plz put this is one of most unexplicable things.
haibara trust on rumi.
vaibhavgupte

Posts:
79

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

Reader wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 3:41 pm
Irrespective of who is right though,
@kor,
Your counter argument was very thorough. I noticed none of those things (because they are less plot relevant maybe, but anyway). My point is, is that I keep visiting this forum for such extensive discussions. Will be looking forward for more. :D
yup this forum is very good for theorist conan fans.
appreciate the efforts for running such wonderful forum.
specially to kor
Idon'tknow

Posts:
8

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Idon'tknow »

You guy should read the latest chapter... The end is quite interesting
Kor
Administrator

Posts:
3000

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Kor »

Speaking of the last case, when seeing the raw, I was wondering whether or not the cipher may be somehow applicable to the Rum dying message. Other than to perhaps imply the "time is money" anagram (which requires both English and Japanese to figure out), I couldn't come up with any ideas.
I still find it funny that the fandom had figured out the anagram right from the get-go and it may still take a while before Gosho will be like "hey guys, here's the solution!". I mean, Conan hasn't even made note to the fact that Rumi has the entire dying message thing in her name (and far as we're concerned, that was never even a "mystery" for us, we could see that purely thanks to the translation)

That aside, I've also tried thinking more about the shogi piece and how it may be interpreted. Here are a few ideas I haven't seen suggested yet (not that these ideas really solve the issue, but oh well).

Kouji was grasping the shogi piece in his hand, so the hand aspect might play into it?

this article talks about the value of shogi pieces in the game (there are several systems), and I kinda got red flags from this table.

Image

"In hand" is quite literally what Kouji was doing.
手駒 (tegoma) means under one's control (the first kanji means "hand")

There's also the possession rule in shogi (持ち駒). As in, the rule that allows you to use the pieces of your opponent that you've captured. The first kanji of this (持) also means "hold" (what Kouji was essentially doing)

Lastly, there's the entire concept of handicap shogi, and like the term in English, in Japanese the name also has the kanji for hand in it (手合割).

Funnily enough, in English, the handicapped play is "white", while the non-handicapped player is "black".
In Japanese, the higher ranked player is called 上手 uwate "handicapped player" while the lower player is 下手 shitate "lower player." These terms are usually translated in English simply as White and Black, respectively just like the way 後手 gote and 先手 sente are translated as White and Black, respectively.
So... no clue how to apply any of these ideas to the dying message. Kouji was a professional shogi player so go figure how complex the message is if he used a shogi piece. (or it has absolutely nothing to do with shogi at all. that's also possible.)
Image
Zerozaki4869

Posts:
465

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

About that Kuroda panel (though despite Kor's numerous irrelevant examples), I'm yet to see one panel where we had a glimpse of a focal point of the arc (here the crime scene) but the crime scene was botched up by the art style.

(Shukichi's dialogues, heights, what the Akai family were saying to each other becomes irrelevant in the grand scheme of things as none of it would help us solve Kohji case, get Rum's goals etc. If one goes by this logic, then the whole case is a comedy of errors. But it gave us insight about Tsutomu's propensity of using idioms.)

Just like Jodi/Vermouth's memory was a genuine hint, the cool kid/cool guy wasn't a botched up job rather a hint.

But instead I would ask,.......(If you think it is just trash and is worthy of no clue)
even then why Kuroda looked up Kohji on the uploader's site and not through cold case files ? (He is Amuro's NPA handler, he will have that much authority to view cold cases as and when he wishes.)

Regarding the dying message (i.e. Shogi piece)
So I did a little research with the Bishop piece. It seems the Kanji's of the Bishop or Uma can't be used to form coherent names but there's a way out. The Kanji's have certain Nanori(name) readings which can point to certain legal Japanese names (albeit Phonetically).
So I scouted online Nanori reading of the both the Kanjis consisting the Kaku/Bishop part and Promoted Bishop/Uma separately.
This is for Bishop part.
- Inami (surname or female name)
- Iname (surname or female name)
- Imichi (surname)
- Sunami (surname or female name)
- Suname (surname)
- Sumichi (surname)
- Suminami (surname)
- Sumiyuki (name, gender not specified?)
- Fusamichi (name, gender not specified?)
- Fusayuki (name, gender not specified?)
For "promoted bishop"
- Ryuuta (name)
- Ryuume (name)
- Ryuumo (name or surname)

Thanks to Holmes for checking the legality of the names and giving a clear outline for the Gender.
This is the source.
https://www.japandict.com/%E8%A7%92%E8%A1%8C
https://www.japandict.com/%E7%AB%9C%E9%A6%AC?lang=eng
vaibhavgupte

Posts:
79

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

There is one question I had throughout the rum arc
which I couldnt find any answer to.
"why rum arc started in first place?"
I mean kir messaged the name RUM
indicating that he is on the move.
Now what exactly happened in scarlet series that made RUM on the move.

I mean unlike bourbon arc which started when bourbon was mentioned . bourbon got interested coz of akai death
who was his arch rival .
vermouth arc began coz chris vineyard may have noticed
conan and sherry in pisco case party.

Now when we think of what in scarlet series may have enticed rum its very difficult to say.
coz both bourbon and vermouth who were the key players
wouldnt tell anything to rum about what happened.
even the people chasing akai were furuya's psb people
no loyal bo involved.

The only possible hint to rum which I can think of is
yusaku kudo at awards in LA talking about a story
"scarlet investigator"
inspired by fbi investigator.
If RUM by any chance read it he would find similarities
of that investigator to fbi agent akai shuichi.
coz since boss considers akai silver bullet there is
nothing odd in assuming his right hand knows details
about akai.

Now this sacrlet invesigator got them interested
in yusaku kudo and rum might have later found that
his son shinichi is in aptx list.

Thats why I think RUM was on the move after
scarlet series.
and he didnt do anything right away since
no poof about yusaku smilar to how gin
left kogoro with suspicion.

But when RUM later learned that his son poisoned by aptx
could be alive in crimson school trip,
RUM got on red alert and messaged bourbon.
and sometime he will strike for sure.

This is what I think a possible explanation
of why RUM became active just after scarlet series.
and why rum arc started at this point.
Reader

Posts:
50

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Reader »

"why rum arc started in the first place?"

To me it looks like gosho just wanted to throw in another BO member for 'plot'.
Otherwise as you said it could be because of the screenplay by yusaku.
Or it could be because rum is interested in finding out the bo rats like gin.
In Scarlet epilogue bourbon tells Vermouth that his mic was acting up. Is it in vermouth's character to believe such an excuse? Maybe she is complying because bourbon has her secret. She could sniff out bourbon's true allegiance as she did of Kir. Maybe she already knows and is playing the Kuroda strategy from woodpecker case. So maybe rum is sniffing out as well.

Hope we will get a proper explanation.
blackmoon

Posts:
188

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

Well.... there is one thing that is strange that is related to Mary and Tsutomu... since both of them being MI6 agents and having the organization backing them up there is still a need for their family to leave England and go to Japan? Something that really doesn't make sense? Meaning their family would still be unsafe under the protection of MI6 agency? Yet it seems Mary wasn't even aware of how powerful the B.O. was from her conversation with fake Tsutomu (Vermouth) at Vauxhall Bridge??? So why the need to leave England and move to Japan???
On a side note, "According to James Black's own account, he was born in London, England, in the Marylebone district of Westchester City, the same district where the original Baker Street is located, before he moved to Chicago, growing up as a naturalized American citizen." --quoted from wiki: https://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/James_Black
So when exactly was James Black staying in England and when did he leave England and moved to Chicago? And was there a reason why he left England?

Image
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
Spoiler:
Image
Reader

Posts:
50

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Reader »

Didn't they (akai family) move to Japan under Tsutomu's orders that they will be safe in Japan and something like that?
Though I agree, under MI6 protection they would be fine and also they could take up hidden search of Tsutomu with the help of MI6.
blackmoon

Posts:
188

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

Reader wrote:
August 6th, 2020, 9:58 am
Didn't they (akai family) move to Japan under Tsutomu's orders that they will be safe in Japan and something like that?
Though I agree, under MI6 protection they would be fine and also they could take up hidden search of Tsutomu with the help of MI6.
So... yeah looking back at the timeline, when Atsushi Miyano decided to join a research facility sponsored by the Karasuma Group 19 years ago, Elena's sister (Mary) was already aware that the group is shady. And yet... considering when Amanda Hughes, an elderly wealthy American who had contacts to two American intelligence agencies (FBI and CIA) was killed by poison (APTX 4869 or a similar substance) seventeen years ago PLUS the dying message left by Kohji, why these "intelligence agencies" still failed to figure out a link pointing towards the Karasuma group? Considering that the dying message itself was not that hard to solve (easily done by Yusaku Kudo) why hadn't either Mary (from MI6) or Akai (in FBI) figure that out and suspect the shady Karasuma group?

Image
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
DCUniverseAficionado
Life can be so many things... what it is for me and for you is up to us to decide.

Posts:
1623

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

blackmoon wrote:
August 10th, 2020, 6:12 am
why these "intelligence agencies" still failed to figure out a link pointing towards the Karasuma group? Considering that the dying message itself was not that hard to solve (easily done by Yusaku Kudo) why hadn't either Mary (from MI6) or Akai (in FBI) figure that out and suspect the shady Karasuma group?
Who says they didn't? (Mary, an operative of a British intelligence agency, warning Elena about a Japanese corporation is noteworthy, already) The Karasuma Group was a corporate entity back 19 years ago, but how long did it exist after that? If they dissolved, then even if the agencies had marked them for investigation, then it would complicate the investigation process. Plus, even Japan's intelligence agencies have had problems dealing with the BO. If the Karasuma Group still exists, then it's a case of all the intelligence agencies simply being unable to get anything due to how secretive the BO is (and the Movies may be dramatizing things a bit, but the clear message from them and the rest of the series is that they're a match for these government agencies).
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
blackmoon

Posts:
188

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
August 10th, 2020, 8:04 pm
Who says they didn't? (Mary, an operative of a British intelligence agency, warning Elena about a Japanese corporation is noteworthy, already) The Karasuma Group was a corporate entity back 19 years ago, but how long did it exist after that? If they dissolved, then even if the agencies had marked them for investigation, then it would complicate the investigation process. Plus, even Japan's intelligence agencies have had problems dealing with the BO. If the Karasuma Group still exists, then it's a case of all the intelligence agencies simply being unable to get anything due to how secretive the BO is (and the Movies may be dramatizing things a bit, but the clear message from them and the rest of the series is that they're a match for these government agencies).
Well the point is... B.O. having so many undercover agents from FBI, CIA, the Japanese police and possibly even MI6 (if you count the ones from the movie the Darkest nightmare) simply means that they already got the attention of most government agencies, and they have been poking their noses into B.O.'s business. The question I'm asking was why they haven't seem to discover the potential link between B.O. and the Karasuma Group? The focus of the spotlight seems to be on B.O. but so far only Yusaku Kudo (who solved Kohji's dying message) and Conan (who figured that B.O.'s boss used the song of Seven Baby Crows or The Crow's Seven Chicks to encode his phone numbe) seem to have found some connection to that.

by the way according to the timeline...
≈20 years ago
Atsushi Miyano, Elena Miyano, and a 4-5 year old Akemi visited Atsushi Miyano's father's house then occupied by his childhood friend and playmate Souhei Degima. (https://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Timeline)
but according to file 423, their family was already being "watched" even prior to them joining the Karasuma Group... so who would be tailing them at the time?
Image
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
Spoiler:
Image
Post Reply