Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

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Zerozaki4869

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

blackmoon wrote:
July 23rd, 2020, 7:30 am
well... looking back at past chapter 987, there was an unusual spike from Rumi picked up by both Conan and Haibara when one of the camper mentioned about losing sight and almost had to get a prosthetic.... not to mention Conan sawing her clutching an object (now we know it's Kohji's shogi piece) in her pocket.... so.... that reaction seem to imply that her "impaired" vision may be related to the Kohji case in some way.... otherwise why the strong reaction in clenching the shogi piece when someone else was talking about "impaired vision"... and not to mention in files 1032-34 she was pressing down on her right eye and crouching down on the ground while recalling Kohji's death scene... which seem to further imply that her "impaired eye" may be related to the Kohji incident... Say if she only arrived at the crime scene after everything happened and Kohji was lying on the floor dead (while she happened to pick up the shogi piece from the crime scene) then there is no explanation for what could have caused her eye to be "impaired" and not to mention the scar marks left on her body that appeared to be left from a fight or struggle with someone who held a sharp object... could Rumi have possibly fought with someone else over that shogi piece and the person left her the scars as well as an eye injury? ???

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I don't think she had obtained it from anyone. She saw Kohji with an open palm, so she possibly isn't the one who took it out of his hand. It's also very unlikely that she fought someone to get the piece. If that was the case the other person would have destroyed it. Again a fight between killer and Rumi is very unlikely given Rumi's memory. Plus there would have been Rumi's dna in the room, which we don't find as of now.

There's a fine argument that the piece not in the scene and the piece in Kohji's hand is equally damaging for the culprit.
If one introspects one can see that even if the piece isn't there once can know it's identity (that it's a bishop piece) and can figure out the dying message..just that it will be a bit harder.

So a very intelligent killer will most likely try to kill the potential of the piece to become a damaging evidence, i.e. just to leave it on the crime scene as a sign of a struggle and that's it.

Rumi possibly had no faith on the investigating agency hence she took the piece away. Then when she thought that the piece could be just a lucky charm and not a dying message she lost all her will to fight.

Rumi's injuries could be stitches from a big operation, but I'm not sure.
Last edited by Zerozaki4869 on July 23rd, 2020, 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reader

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Reader »

If every eye mention or passing reference makes Rumi remember Kohji, it means her eye injury did take place 17 years ago.
Now did she injure her own eye by self accident? Possibly no.
So someone else did that to her. Obviously in a fight.
That means she did fight with someone. Chances are, the fight took place in Kohji's room, because of the mess.
So she fought with the killer. Or she is the killer herself, and fought with a witness.
Now if she is the killer, why carry the shogi piece?
So the most possible scenario could be: the killer killed Kohji and was in the process of tiding up the room when she enters and spots the killer. They fight. The room becomes a mess. She injures the killer badly. The killer stabs her eye. Rumi manages to injure the killer badly and make him flee. And then She flees herself.

I know it sounds kinda lame, but honestly I see no way to squeeze in the fact that she picked up the piece and the message was planted.
Would any person care about picking up any thing when his/her eye is injured? They would be howling in pain.
So does that mean she first picked up the piece and then the fight ensured?
But then who planted the message? Rumi with her eye injured wouldn't do that. Or that the message was planted before the fight, which means Kohji planted it himself. Now how much does Kohji know about BO? Or does the message means something completely different?

It is so easy to get derailed into various ends while thinking about this case. This might be the most difficult case in DC so far, if we assume that all necessary hints or clues are dropped so far. Though I feel we need something more concrete. The occasion of 100th volume should deliver a vital clue if not the Identity of Rum.
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Mohamed Ebrahem

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Mohamed Ebrahem »

vaibhavgupte

We know a lot about Rum and his morals , so if Chikara is Rum then we know a lot about Chikara .

Also Wakasa said that Karasuma is deceptive, cunning, moving through a group of people and difficult to reach , so Chikara posses these characteristics .
In the second appearance of Chikara Katsumata , There is a sentence said by a shogi player : " The thought is like a bamboo plant , most parts of it are buried under the ground " meaning that Goshu wants to tell us you have to know RUM by yourselves through allusions that you will hear and know about Rum because Goshu will not show Rum in front of us doing any suspicious acts .

I want to ask you about Iori Muga ,
Does he have an artificial eye ? Is him appropriate for the three descriptions said by Haibara ?
Reader

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Reader »

Mohamed Ebrahem wrote:
July 23rd, 2020, 4:18 pm
...meaning that Goshu wants to tell us you have to know RUM by yourselves ...
This looks like a subjective interpretation. One can always pin point and say gosho implied this or gosho implied that.
Reader

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Reader »

Wow...this has become the longest thread ever.
vaibhavgupte

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

There is a theory I want to put. I dont know whether this is
already put by anybody else or not.

In the antique facet case (1035-1038), there was a
antique laquer tray which prof agasa inherited from his
uncle kurisuke agasa , who was introduced way back
in secret of sun, moon and star case (111-113).

At the end of 1038 its told that laquer tray was painted
black by kurisuke agasa to hide the cracks and it wasnt shown what design was present on laquer tray.

Then it clicked to me that karasuma renya had collected
300 antiques and he engraved his crest of rolled crow on
many things.

Guys is there any possibility that the pattern of agasa's
plate is karasuma 's crow emblem.

Now we know that karasuma had called many experts
from different fields to find gold treasure in his house.
example is senma kyosuke , archaelogist.
I think one of the called dignitaries to find treasure
could be
kurisuke agasa ?
I am not sure of this. I am just asking.

the contradiction here is that karasuma found the code
of his mother 40 years ago and then he called dignitaries while kurisuke agasa died somewhere around 50 years old.
though its not exactly confirmed he died 50 years ago.
its just told i think he wrote a will 50 years ago and then died " later on" due to illness.
but his age was 38 at death which looks fishy.
so is it possible he was killed by karasuma using some
poison .
another indication is that he kept secretive life and only
had contact with his sister and a painter.
another indication is that he was quite rich which
is similar to the fact that senma's family received
huge sums of money from karasuma to find the treasure.
another weird thing is that he told not to touch
anything in his house for 50 years
only after which agasa took the laquer tray.
maybe he doubted karasuma's men woud come after his death to take something from his house and if they wont find what they want , his relatives would be in trouble.

and just a foreshadowing is that this case 111-113
in which kurisuke agasa was introduced dealt with
finding something from arrows from db
similar to maria higashio case in which karasuma was
confirmed as boss.
another foreshadowing is that the immediate next case to 111-113
was game company murder case , a bo case.
( at that time bo cases were sparse).

I am not sure about this though.
blackmoon

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

Reader wrote:
July 23rd, 2020, 12:04 pm
If every eye mention or passing reference makes Rumi remember Kohji, it means her eye injury did take place 17 years ago.
Now did she injure her own eye by self accident? Possibly no.
So someone else did that to her. Obviously in a fight.
That means she did fight with someone.
Yeah that was the point i was trying to get across... like there's this flush of killing intent from Rumi when whatever made her recall the Kohji case while the memory also triggered her clutching the shogi piece or pressing her eye... if there were no fight involved with shogi piece why the strong reaction? Not to mention how desperate she was in getting back the shogi piece by even going as far as assaulting Amuro for it.
Reader wrote:
July 23rd, 2020, 12:04 pm
Chances are, the fight took place in Kohji's room, because of the mess.
So she fought with the killer. Or she is the killer herself, and fought with a witness.
Now if she is the killer, why carry the shogi piece?
So the most possible scenario could be: the killer killed Kohji and was in the process of tiding up the room when she enters and spots the killer. They fight. The room becomes a mess. She injures the killer badly. The killer stabs her eye. Rumi manages to injure the killer badly and make him flee. And then She flees herself.

I know it sounds kinda lame, but honestly I see no way to squeeze in the fact that she picked up the piece and the message was planted.
Would any person care about picking up any thing when his/her eye is injured? They would be howling in pain.
So does that mean she first picked up the piece and then the fight ensured?
But then who planted the message? Rumi with her eye injured wouldn't do that. Or that the message was planted before the fight, which means Kohji planted it himself. Now how much does Kohji know about BO? Or does the message means something completely different?

It is so easy to get derailed into various ends while thinking about this case. This might be the most difficult case in DC so far, if we assume that all necessary hints or clues are dropped so far. Though I feel we need something more concrete. The occasion of 100th volume should deliver a vital clue if not the Identity of Rum.
Well... I'm trying to think out of the context here... Gin mentioned that the Kohji case was where RUM screwed up 17 years ago and yet that mistake didn't stop RUM from being BO No.2 so... either RUM was already No.2 at the time of the Kohji case or the case being screwed up didn't hinder RUM from becoming No.2. From interviews with Gosho, it seemed to be implied by Gosho that RUM wasn't punished by the mistake from the Kohji case 17 years ago because RUM was No.2... so RUM being able to climb to the position of No.2 doesn't seem to be based on the performance or contribution done for BO but rather some other reason... If the BOSS of BO was truly Carasuma and Carasuma despite giving Vermouth extra leisure didn't make her No.2 of BO then who could have been this No.2 of Carasuma? Someone who may be a blood relative of Carasuma perhaps? If that were the case then RUM would definitely be concerned about Kohji's dying message that could potentially point to Carasuma. From previous cases we know there was someone who constantly put up reports related to Kohji case on the internet yet it was also immediately taken down from someone. In the case "A song named ASACA" Conan and Subaru went to the concert hall to investigate and encountered Bourbon and Vermouth in disguise. Their presence seem to suggest BO also decoded Kohji's "dying message" and were also investigating who may be related. Yet, strangely, the BO did not make an appearance in the "Soul Detective Murder Case" despite Gaito Hotta, the soul detective wanting to "pretend that he had summoned Kohji's spirit and have it say that a woman was going to kill him." So................ if BO was really involved in the Kohji case then why did they not try to silence the Soul detective who was going to reveal some information about the case (even though it maybe fake acting). YET be interested in "A song named ASACA" while just the words ASACA alone can't possibly point towards Carasuma? While we know that Vermouth's goal may not always be in-line with BO (as she asked for a development of a certain software program from someone she knew) and had been going out acting on her own sometimes... and considering BO's non-involvement with the soul detective case, could it be just the the words "ASACA" alone that triggered Vermouth's interest in investigating further about it with Bourbon? Does this imply Vermouth knows someone by the name Asaka and the body guard Asaka actually does exist and is someone known by Vermouth? Not to mention Vermouth feeding Mary the APTX pill despite knowing about the possible shrinking affect... could it be another part of her grand schemes? ::)
Well, I'm getting off-track here, but point is that if Asaka, the body guard of Amanda really was present at the time it would be strange for BO to murder Amanda so swiftly without Asaka putting up some sort of struggle... yet there was no sign of struggle in Amanda's room, which was really strange... and Kohji's room being a mess is even more strange as there were no direct reasons for BO to assault Kohji. Considering their lack of interest in the followup of silencing the "soul detective" who could have leaked information about the case, the person who was taking down whatever was posted on the internet about Kohji case may not be the "main-stream" BO and Vermouth appear to have an odd interest in Asaka.

And really, why did Wakita suddenly bring up shogi to Conan ???
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"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
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Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Kor »

Reader wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 1:36 am
Wow...this has become the longest thread ever.
Heh, nice catch. Haven't realized it.

Looking back at past threads, this has been the longest thread in the story board for quite a while. Previous one was the scarlet series discussion thread.
blackmoon wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 6:57 am
And really, why did Wakita suddenly bring up shogi to Conan ???
I was bemused by this too, tbh.

Out of universe explanation: Gosho wants to make it clear to the audience that Wakita is also related to the Kouji case (even though that should be obvious to us based on him being a Rum suspect, but whatever, I guess.)

Far as in-universe explanation for Wakita's motive... that's a bit wanky. It's actually kinda funny because as far as we know, Conan doesn't even know yet of the existence of a shogi piece from the scene, and (unless he was told by Genta off screen) he doesn't know Rumi has a cherished shogi piece and that's the item in her pocket, so it could be that Conan is just too unaware at this point to even grasp what Wakita's talking about.
I saw on Baidu a proposed explanation that Wakita thinks Kogoro might be looking into the Kouji case (because of the Soul Detective case), and since Conan goes with him everywhere, then Conan might also be privy to details of the investigation. So Wakita asked Conan about it to see how far the investigation has been coming along.
(dunno if I buy this explanation because it's extremely indirect)

Conan is so far behind on clues and hints in this arc that he's actually slowing us down. Do some detective work, Conan!
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Zerozaki4869

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

Rather how does Wakita know about thepiece is more important question here ?
(Only NPA/Kohji's family/Rum/Tsutomu/Rumi should know about it.)
Wakita if Rum has no reason to suggest something to Conan which is potentially damaging.....

Mary's reaction to Hotta's infos were coined in one word. ``Bogus.``
Most likely a) Asaka is a woman b)The mirror belonged to Asaka are bogus infos. Most likely Hotta was set up by Rum to undermine the uploader's mirror message.
If Asaka is stamped as a fugitive and killer then her mirror being a dying message won't make much sense....(rather a relic from a fight with Kohji.)
Reader

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Reader »

@blackmoon your post clearly sums up our confusion (but that is itself what keeps our interest in DC going honestly) and rightfully so, Rum arc wouldn't have been interesting if it was only about who is Rum; but of course Rum is just one speck (though important) in the grand scheme of things which keeps the boat floating.

vaibhavgupte wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 4:42 am
though its not exactly confirmed he died 50 years ago.
its just told i think he wrote a will 50 years ago and then died " later on" due to illness.
From what I read on mangadex on page 2 of file 1035 agasa says, "uncle kurisuke died fifty years ago..."
I think one of the called dignitaries to find treasure
could be
kurisuke agasa ?
I am not sure of this. I am just asking.
In file 111, while looking at the painting of kurisuke, agasa says, "my uncle was a hermit, so she (aunt) was the only person he allowed around him..."
Going by agasa's words, a person of hermit nature won't go treasure hunting (he was rich himself btw).
and just a foreshadowing is that this case 111-113
in which kurisuke agasa was introduced dealt with
finding something from arrows from db
similar to maria higashio case in which karasuma was
confirmed as boss.
Many had thought that just because Maria was in the file where karasuma was confirmed, she was a shrunken kid by aptx. This is simply...

But concerning the foreshadowing you are talking about, I think its hard to say, if suppose gosho did intend agasa's uncle to be a part of the plot in some way, why did he not reference him between 111 and 1006. (If he did, correct me).

Besides all this, I feel now that if a certain thing is not shown to be plot related in manga, and if it has close to zero recurrence, then that thing is unrelated to plot. Eg. Chikara.
Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Kor »

By the by, while I know that it's considered by the fandom a "taboo" to talk about the movies in regards to these mysteries, I still wanted to examine this approach. Besides, in recent years, the manga has started giving vague acknowledgments to stuff that happens in the movies, such as Kid knowing Conan's actually a high school detective, Kazuha referring to a thing Kid did in movie 3, and Conan recognizes that Kazami is Amuro's subordinate. Plus, Gosho's also gone on record that he checks the film's scripts and fixes stuff as he sees fit, so I'd like to hope there wouldn't be stuff that's too jarringly inconsistent.

So basically, movie 20 more or less invalidates Kuroda as a Rum suspect.

Kuroda is introduced in the manga in December 2014 and February 2016 in the anime (obviously talking real life dates here), and at the end of the case, he's already supposedly notified of his move to Tokyo. So basically, as far as the manga and anime are concerned, If Kuroda is Rum, he wouldn't need Curacao to infiltrate the NPA for him, he'd likely already have a personal access.

Rum orders Curacao to infiltrate the NPA in order to find the NOCs list for him. Curacao confirms to him of the three movie exclusive spies, and also is about to tell him that the two Rum suspects of being NOCs (Kir and Bourbon) are indeed NOCs, but gets obstructed. Despite the non-confirmation, Gin still intends to kill them, but is stopped after Rum receives a message (faked by Agasa) that clears Kir and Bourbon from doubt. Furthermore, the BO doesn't know about Bourbon's police connections in the movie. It's only after he's suspected that Vermouth confronts him about possibly having police connections (which he denies).
So if Kuroda is already in his Tokyo position, he'd already know Bourbon's police connections, so he can't really "suspect" him to be a NOC cause he should already be aware of that. And even if this timeline is wrong and Kuroda/Rum isn't active yet (so he learns about Bourbon only later), it makes no sense for the impatient Rum to wait out on killing Amuro (especially considering he was so gung-ho about getting rid of all the spies).

In other words, Kuroda being Rum makes for a pretty huge inconsistency between manga Rum and movie Rum.

Even ignoring the movie, though, it doesn't really benefit Rum to keep Bourbon alive if he's already aware he's a mole, and he wouldn't need Bourbon to look into Kudo Shinichi for him. Kuroda has access to all the case files Shinichi was involved in, and he can very easily ask his subordinates (Megure, Takagi, etc.) what they know about Shinichi.
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Zerozaki4869

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

``Even ignoring the movie, though, it doesn't really benefit Rum to keep Bourbon alive if he's already aware he's a mole, and he wouldn't need Bourbon to look into Kudo Shinichi for him. Kuroda has access to all the case files Shinichi was involved in, and he can very easily ask his subordinates (Megure, Takagi, etc.) what they know about Shinichi.``

Only if outing Bourbon jeopardises Rum's own cover. Plus Kuroda was introduced with an woodpecker strategy. The false alarm to lure your enemy out of the safer side and then attack them when their guard is down.
Asking Bourbon about the info on Kudo Shinichi has a very decent advantage to put one over Gin. Do remember that Shinichi has a promise with the Police that his names won't appear in the proceedings. That means Police can take all the claim they like and his name won't be in the files. Takagi/Megure/Sato/Shiratori are very apt with that.

In the movie Amuro and Subaru had already fought and bruised each other.Let's not talk about movies.....
On a different front consider Scotch's cover blow up.....(if that's an inside job who could be the leaker ?)
vaibhavgupte

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 12:05 pm
``Even ignoring the movie, though, it doesn't really benefit Rum to keep Bourbon alive if he's already aware he's a mole, and he wouldn't need Bourbon to look into Kudo Shinichi for him. Kuroda has access to all the case files Shinichi was involved in, and he can very easily ask his subordinates (Megure, Takagi, etc.) what they know about Shinichi.``

Only if outing Bourbon jeopardises Rum's own cover. Plus Kuroda was introduced with an woodpecker strategy. The false alarm to lure your enemy out of the safer side and then attack them when their guard is down.
Asking Bourbon about the info on Kudo Shinichi has a very decent advantage to put one over Gin. Do remember that Shinichi has a promise with the Police that his names won't appear in the proceedings. That means Police can take all the claim they like and his name won't be in the files. Takagi/Megure/Sato/Shiratori are very apt with that.

In the movie Amuro and Subaru had already fought and bruised each other.Let's not talk about movies.....
On a different front consider Scotch's cover blow up.....(if that's an inside job who could be the leaker ?)
what was he then doing in nagano after scotch death for
4 years??
since his mission was accomplished.
vaibhavgupte

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

Kor wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 11:21 am
By the by, while I know that it's considered by the fandom a "taboo" to talk about the movies in regards to these mysteries, I still wanted to examine this approach. Besides, in recent years, the manga has started giving vague acknowledgments to stuff that happens in the movies, such as Kid knowing Conan's actually a high school detective, Kazuha referring to a thing Kid did in movie 3, and Conan recognizes that Kazami is Amuro's subordinate. Plus, Gosho's also gone on record that he checks the film's scripts and fixes stuff as he sees fit, so I'd like to hope there wouldn't be stuff that's too jarringly inconsistent.


So basically, movie 20 more or less invalidates Kuroda as a Rum suspect.

Kuroda is introduced in the manga in December 2014 and February 2016 in the anime (obviously talking real life dates here), and at the end of the case, he's already supposedly notified of his move to Tokyo. So basically, as far as the manga and anime are concerned, If Kuroda is Rum, he wouldn't need Curacao to infiltrate the NPA for him, he'd likely already have a personal access.

Rum orders Curacao to infiltrate the NPA in order to find the NOCs list for him. Curacao confirms to him of the three movie exclusive spies, and also is about to tell him that the two Rum suspects of being NOCs (Kir and Bourbon) are indeed NOCs, but gets obstructed. Despite the non-confirmation, Gin still intends to kill them, but is stopped after Rum receives a message (faked by Agasa) that clears Kir and Bourbon from doubt. Furthermore, the BO doesn't know about Bourbon's police connections in the movie. It's only after he's suspected that Vermouth confronts him about possibly having police connections (which he denies).
So if Kuroda is already in his Tokyo position, he'd already know Bourbon's police connections, so he can't really "suspect" him to be a NOC cause he should already be aware of that. And even if this timeline is wrong and Kuroda/Rum isn't active yet (so he learns about Bourbon only later), it makes no sense for the impatient Rum to wait out on killing Amuro (especially considering he was so gung-ho about getting rid of all the spies).

In other words, Kuroda being Rum makes for a pretty huge inconsistency between manga Rum and movie Rum.

Even ignoring the movie, though, it doesn't really benefit Rum to keep Bourbon alive if he's already aware he's a mole, and he wouldn't need Bourbon to look into Kudo Shinichi for him. Kuroda has access to all the case files Shinichi was involved in, and he can very easily ask his subordinates (Megure, Takagi, etc.) what they know about Shinichi.

so in your opinion kanenori is rum?
since you discard kuroda.
since hardly someone believes wakasa is rum.
Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Kor »

vaibhavgupte wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:47 pm
so in your opinion kanenori is rum?
Yes.
vaibhavgupte wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:47 pm
since hardly someone believes wakasa is rum.
You'll be surprised. I checked today on Baidu (a Chinese forum thing), and there's a huge faction there that thinks it's Rumi. Over there it seems to be Kuroda with the least amount of supporters.
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