Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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KingWilson

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26

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by KingWilson »

vaibhavgupte wrote:
June 6th, 2020, 11:33 am
and then charged amuro will end up giving info to his
senior confidante kuroda ( his other identity) via phone.
( similar to camel telling info to jodie disguised as vermouth)
But Amuro didnt give it to Kuroda via phone even though RUM already message him twice which was confirmed in chapter 1017, when Kuroda asked how it going with the Kudo report, Amuro said nothing and that a lie, so from that conversation i could conclude that it a part of yusaku akai and bourbon to kept it a secret from anyone about the meeting at tea party, so in my opinion im not seeing amuro giving info about Kudo report to Kuroda even though RUM will keep messaging Amuro.
vaibhavgupte

Posts:
35

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

KingWilson wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 7:22 am
vaibhavgupte wrote:
June 6th, 2020, 11:33 am
and then charged amuro will end up giving info to his
senior confidante kuroda ( his other identity) via phone.
( similar to camel telling info to jodie disguised as vermouth)
But Amuro didnt give it to Kuroda via phone even though RUM already message him twice which was confirmed in chapter 1017, when Kuroda asked how it going with the Kudo report, Amuro said nothing and that a lie, so from that conversation i could conclude that it a part of yusaku akai and bourbon to kept it a secret from anyone about the meeting at tea party, so in my opinion im not seeing amuro giving info about Kudo report to Kuroda even though RUM will keep messaging Amuro.
yes .bingo. you are on point.
actually amuro did confide info that conan
is real sleeping kogoro to kuroda earlier
in way I stated above. but in akai bourbon yusaku meet
they had conversation and they now
doubt kuroda to be rum.
hence even though kuroda called amuro in
traffic polcewoman serial murder case
(by identity of senior confidante)
bourbon is actually terrified and doesnt tell him info.
now kuroda will start to doubt that
bourbon knows kuroda idemtity as bourbon even doesnt
tell info to senior confidante.
I think these three maybe plotting bourbon fake death
on lines of akai fake death
to protect him from kuroda in black bunny club case knowing his cover is already
blown off.
KingWilson

Posts:
26

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by KingWilson »

vaibhavgupte wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 7:38 am
yes .bingo. you are on point.
actually amuro did confide info that conan
is real sleeping kogoro to kuroda earlier
in way I stated above. but in akai bourbon yusaku meet
they had conversation and they now
doubt kuroda to be rum.
hence even though kuroda called amuro in
traffic polcewoman serial murder case
(by identity of senior confidante)
bourbon is actually terrified and doesnt tell him info.
now kuroda will start to doubt that
bourbon knows kuroda idemtity as bourbon even doesnt
tell info to senior confidante.
I think these three maybe plotting bourbon fake death
on lines of akai fake death
to protect him from kuroda in black bunny club case knowing his cover is already
blown off.
I could see that happening, but how does yusaku akai and bourbon figure out that Kuroda is RUM though, isnt it better to assume that they will suspect everyone that Amuro knows to be RUM.
vaibhavgupte

Posts:
35

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

KingWilson wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 7:53 am
vaibhavgupte wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 7:38 am
yes .bingo. you are on point.
actually amuro did confide info that conan
is real sleeping kogoro to kuroda earlier
in way I stated above. but in akai bourbon yusaku meet
they had conversation and they now
doubt kuroda to be rum.
hence even though kuroda called amuro in
traffic polcewoman serial murder case
(by identity of senior confidante)
bourbon is actually terrified and doesnt tell him info.
now kuroda will start to doubt that
bourbon knows kuroda idemtity as bourbon even doesnt
tell info to senior confidante.
I think these three maybe plotting bourbon fake death
on lines of akai fake death
to protect him from kuroda in black bunny club case knowing his cover is already
blown off.
I could see that happening, but how does yusaku akai and bourbon figure out that Kuroda is RUM though, isnt it better to assume that they will suspect everyone that Amuro knows to be RUM.
that is possibility and can be the case that they dont
exactly know rum.
when you see yusaku ( more brilliant than conan)
along with amuro and akai. it could well be within
realms of possibility.
all cases which happened till then and even
kuroda wakasa or even wakita could be known facts
to yusaku and akai. yusaku is here means they
must be observing events around conan
this is all behind the scenes.
what I think is they may have hidden this from conan
so kuroda who sees conan may not know from his
reactions that he knows he is rum.
conan knows something is plotted between them
but not exactly what.
hence he directly asks amuro about rum in
nagano snowy mountains case since he
knows these four have discussed something.
but amuro gives conan confusing answer as plotted
by these three.
but I doubt gosho will keep conan away from such
important plot since he is main character.
so I am not sure about this.
but there are two possibilities:
1) conan will figure out this plan .he already started in nagano. eventually come out his own plan and
correct error in original plan
2) without conan knowing the plan, they may execute
bourbon fake death which may fail as
protagonist conan wasnt there.
and amuro may end up dead like his police academy friends. less likely but.
Reader

Posts:
24

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Reader »

Now zerozaki, I don't know if I am reading this wrong because there's seems to be a conflicting opinion in your redit posts.
In your Kuroda post:
Then one can ask why and how Rum had switched with Kuroda ?

The answer is in the past (which I had elucidated in my Rumi theory) that pre coma/real Kuroda had some sort of exchange with Rumi which disgusted Rumi, but this Kuroda only thinks that Rumi is important because of her name. Which further substantiates that the swap happened after Kuroda earned Rumi's wrath.
And in your Asaka post:
Now the big reveal, I think Rum is a Hoye Kuroda but not the current Kuroda. Rum i.e. previous Kuroda had taken the alias Asaka as a mean to kill Amanda but got identified by Haneda Kohji.
Now I don't know the dates which those two separate posts were posted. If the gap is too long then yes, our opinions do change over time. But seeing how detailed your theory is (and a good one too!), I feel I am missing something...maybe?
vaibhavgupte

Posts:
35

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

I totally agree with you that wakita is tsutomu and kuroda
is rum.
what I dont agree is rumi is on good side.
rumi allowed a murder to take place just to solve case
with conan in wakasa neighbour case.
plus she threw ayumi clover leaf in wild plants collecting case.
you say she is npa and got info from maybe amuro.
thrn why did she knock him down in hatoyama farm case.
most importantly point she doesnt even know
conan is shinichi. so why is she so interested in conan
to take job at teitan school???.

my logic is her arrival timing is after soul detective murder case. here kogoro's involvement raised death bells in bo.
so if we agree kuroda is rum then he knows true
sleeping kogoro is conan and he sent his assistant rumi
who I believe is asaka , loyal bo and kohji lover to
keep an eye on conan.

also your logic that asaka is tall only applies if
photographer is of normal height. if he is short
asaka coud be normal height.

also if asaka is not bo then why didnt bo
do anything even after seeing her name similar to wakasa.
and if kuroda is rum . how could he have left wakasa
free after all this.
if he is rum , how does wakasa have courage to speak
tauntingly to rum. this isnt possible unless they are on
one side and that is bo.
KingWilson

Posts:
26

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by KingWilson »

vaibhavgupte wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 1:15 pm
also if asaka is not bo then why didnt bo
do anything even after seeing her name similar to wakasa.
and if kuroda is rum . how could he have left wakasa
free after all this.
if he is rum , how does wakasa have courage to speak
tauntingly to rum. this isnt possible unless they are on
one side and that is bo.
Great point vaib, i completely agree with your point that Kuroda should take action with Rumi realising that her name bear similarity to Haneda dying message if Rumi is not BO, also i do agree that Rumi should be BO bc she have updated APTX list, trigger haibara BO sense and knowing about karasu too.
Zerozaki4869

Posts:
441

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

Now I don't know the dates which those two separate posts were posted. If the gap is too long then yes, our opinions do change over time. But seeing how detailed your theory is (and a good one too!), I feel I am missing something...maybe?
You felt right and read it wrong. The Rum part of that post was exploratory in nature...if you look at the conclusion it was how one can interpret the SBD info about Rum being one of the three.
Asaka is short.
And that would make the photographer less than 5 feet in height. Not many people are that short......so very unlikely.
hrn why did she knock him down in hatoyama farm case.
No BO agent would think that another fellow BO agent who wasn't involved in that case (Kohji case) to know the implication of the Shogi piece. As it was in the cold case files, meaning a secret from the prying eyes. It only makes sense if Rumi knows that Amuro knew about the piece from an inside source which makes Rumi aware of Amuro's real job.
also if asaka is not bo then why didnt bo
do anything even after seeing her name similar to wakasa.
What can they do, it's just a random name and Kuroda has nothing on her other than the fact that she is ``violently psychotic.`` But Kuroda stalked her instead of asking Amuro to investigate her . You should also ponder on that point.

Anyhow ponder over this point
a) Haibara thought Rumi was Rum after the trigger.
b) A lot of BO operatives behaved gallantly infront of Haibara before making a move on her life.
c) Yet Haibara tells Conan to not badmouth her. Meaning she now doesn't consider her a threat.
d) Haibara is pretty smart, so the obvious conclusion is that she didn't sense anything from Rumi and her first trigger wasn't Rumi's doing.
Last edited by Zerozaki4869 on June 10th, 2020, 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reader

Posts:
24

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Reader »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 11:25 pm

c) Yet Haibara tells Conan to not badmouth her. Meaning she now doesn't consider her a threat.
This looked fishy to me from the start. What is it that Haibara sees in Rumi that makes her say that? This was not hinted through any monologue of Haibara or something like that. So maybe Haibara does know who Rumi is? And hiding it from conan for some reasons...
This will be like conan keeping okiya's identity secret from her in the bourbon arc.
KingWilson

Posts:
26

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by KingWilson »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 11:25 pm
No BO agent would think that another fellow BO agent who wasn't involved in that case (Kohji case) to know the implication of the Shogi piece. As it was in the cold case files, meaning a secret from the prying eyes. It only makes sense if Rumi knows that Amuro knew about the piece from an inside source which makes Rumi aware of Amuro's real job.
I agree with this point Zaki, i do think Rumi is NPA agent too but i do think she is BO too bc she trigger haibara sense so she a NOC also make sense from the latest case where in chapter 1051 rumi said that when she imagined karasu it someone who hard to get close to meaning she trying to get close to karasu bc that her job as a NOC in BO.
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 11:25 pm
d) Haibara is pretty smart, so the obvious conclusion is that she didn't sense anything from Rumi and her first trigger wasn't Rumi's doing.
About the part where haibara BO sense was trigger by Kuroda in the burning tent case, i still think that it was Rumi who trigger it because one of the suspect say the word "Prosthetic" and she grip her shogi piece after that implying she have some fury intent bc of that word otherwise why would she grip it all of a sudden.

Also the reason why haibara BO sense didnt trigger again when rumi approached the suspect to save Ayumi because she didnt show some fury intent at all though that why it didnt trigger haibara BO sense, Haibara BO Sense sometimes work if someone have fury intent so that my reasoning on why Haibara BO sense is still trigger by Rumi and not Kuroda.
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Mohamed Ebrahem

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Mohamed Ebrahem »

Reader wrote:
June 10th, 2020, 1:45 am
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 11:25 pm
c) Yet Haibara tells Conan to not badmouth her. Meaning she now doesn't consider her a threat.
This looked fishy to me from the start . What is it that Haibara sees in Rumi that makes her say that ? This was not hinted through any monologue of Haibara or something like that . So maybe Haibara does know who Rumi is ? And hiding it from conan for some reasons...
This will be like conan keeping okiya's identity secret from her in the bourbon arc .
yes Zero
Let's go further , I think Wakasa is the aunt of Haibara = Wakasa is a younger sister of Atsuchi .
I went so far as to think that it was Haibara who gave her the APTX victim list .

I totally agree with you , Reader .
vaibhavgupte

Posts:
35

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

Mohamed Ebrahem wrote:
June 10th, 2020, 6:22 am
Reader wrote:
June 10th, 2020, 1:45 am
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 11:25 pm
c) Yet Haibara tells Conan to not badmouth her. Meaning she now doesn't consider her a threat.
This looked fishy to me from the start . What is it that Haibara sees in Rumi that makes her say that ? This was not hinted through any monologue of Haibara or something like that . So maybe Haibara does know who Rumi is ? And hiding it from conan for some reasons...
This will be like conan keeping okiya's identity secret from her in the bourbon arc .
yes Zero
Let's go further , I think Wakasa is the aunt of Haibara = Wakasa is a younger sister of Atsuchi .
I went so far as to think that it was Haibara who gave her the APTX victim list .

I totally agree with you , Reader .
this rumi character is very fishy
and most complicated to understand character ever
in conan.
reminds me of vermouth . loyal bo agent. so on bad side but with hidden agenda.
I think like vermouth protecting conan,
rumi is trying to protect haibara from her boss rum.
there is definitely a relation between her and haibara.
but I dont think she is her aunt.
coz she is clearly on bad side.
atsushi and elena were good guys.
they were trying to create silver bullet drug
(which I beleive is good drug intended
to finish bo) not aptx 4869.
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Mohamed Ebrahem

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Mohamed Ebrahem »

I have read Chekhov's conclusion on page 21 in this topic in this forum on the case of chapters 948 949 950 and his conclusion is very important if you want to know what exactly happened in the Kohjii crime scene but as Chikov said this case is a trap from Goshu because there are many differences between what happened at Kohji's case and this similar case as Goshu announced in the title of that case in these chapters 948 949 950 .

But I think the two important hints in theses chapters :
1- The murderer is called Senba and he is a man, not woman , So we will exclude Wakasa Rumi from being the one who killed Kohji .
2- The job of the killer is a former sweet shop owner , "former" word is a hint to the person who killed Kohji is a former owner of something , and this of course supports our conclusions that Chikara Katsumata is Karasuma Renya and is RUM , the former owner of the Black organization , meaning he has become Number 2 not number 1 as it was before .

But your conclusion Chekhov is very important and your thinking is great but the problem as you said , it is a trap from Goshu for readers who will try to wake up between the two cases . but you have Hotta Gaito murder case which you can derive hints and similarities between it and the case of Kohji's murder , the killer is called " Sanpei Kokuri " , he is somewhat similar to Chikara Katsumata in appearance , so you have the murdered Hotta Gaito = Haned Kohji and the apartment next to the apartment of Hotta is belongs to Mary and Sera Masume , so these two women represents Amanda and her bodyguard Asaka .
Let us not forget that at the end of this case Sera said that Asaka is a woman and it seems that Mary was not surprised , so it is certain Asaka is a woman and not a man and most likely she will be Wakasa Rumi .

we can consider that Mary represents Amanda and Sera represents Asaka , or may be the reverse is correct .
In Hotta Gaito case , The killer /Sanpei Kokuri , decieved the people /Mouri and Conan , that the one who killed the victim came from outside and fled away as soon as they opened the door and jumped off the balcony , this may be a hint that Chikara Katsumata has attached the charge for Asaka who fled , meaning that he had made a trick To clear himself as the murderer /" Sanpei Kokuri " did in the Hotta Gaito murder case .
The person who solves the Hotta Gaito murder case is not Conan , but Mary who used Conan’s voice changer , I don’t know what Goshu wants to refer but it is possible that Goshu wants to say the person who solved the Kohji case is Tsutomu , Mary’s husband .

At the end of the case Sanpei Kokuri jumped from his balcony to Mary's balcony , so it is possible is a hint from Goshu that Chikara jumped from Kohji's balcony to Amanda's balcony after killing Kohji . and also Sanpei Kokuri was hit by Mary , this may also a hint that Tsutomo , when he investigated the case after it happened . He had a fight with Chikara , and Tsutomo who cause the damage to Chikara's eye , or may be the situation between Mary and Sanpei Kokuri , a hint that Wakasa who had a fight with Chikara to recover the piece of shogi that Chikara intended to get rid of . And we recently saw in the newly released farm case (1051 -1054) a hint that Wakasa had recovered the shogi piece from Bourbon so she might have a fight with Chikara too and took the piece from him .

This is what I was able to extract from Hotta Gaito case , and I may be wrong in understanding most of them , But I can assure you that this case which has many hints about what happened in the Kohji murder case and not the case that occurred in Chapter 948 949 950 , So I think you guys can extract hints from it more than me and analyze it better .

But let me remind you a few things that Goshu puts hints about the Kojhi case when it is mentioned by any one in any chapter . May be the reason for Koji's death that he discovered that Chikara cheats in Games , and Kohji warned him to do it again , or he would report it but Chikara killed him , the hint about that may the situation took place in chapters (1043-1046) when Haneda Shukichi known who is the killer in this case before everyone and he went to his house to order him to surrender to police , But the killer held him .

The last thing I would like to say is that Goshu left us with a hint of the identical characters of Haneda Koji and Wakasa Rumi which are Haneda Shukichi and Curacao in order .

Image
Last edited by Mohamed Ebrahem on June 20th, 2020, 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
vaibhavgupte

Posts:
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

Mohamed Ebrahem wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 2:53 pm
I have read Chekhov's conclusion on page 21 in this topic in this forum on the case of chapters 948 949 950 and his conclusion is very important if you want to know what exactly happened in the Kohjii crime scene but as Chikov said this case is a trap from Goshu because there are many differences between what happened at Kohji's case and this similar case as Goshu announced in the title of that case in these chapters 948 949 950 .

But I think the two important hints in theses chapters :
1- The murderer is called Senba and he is a man, not woman , So we will exclude Wakasa Rumi from being the one who killed Kohji .
2- The job of the killer is a former sweet shop owner , "former" word is a hint to the person who killed Kohji is a former owner of something , and this of course supports our conclusions that Chikara Katsumata is Karasuma Renya and is the RUM , the former owner of the Black organization , meaning he has become No. 2 not number 1 as it was before .

But your conclusion Chekhov is very important and your thinking is great but the problem as you said , it is a trap from Goshu for readers who will try to wake up between the two cases . but you have Hotta Gaito murder case which you can derive hints and similarities between it and the case of Kohji's murder , the killer is called " Sanpei Kokuri " , he is somewhat similar to Chikara Katsumata in appearance , so you have the murdered Hotta Gaito = Haned Kohji and the apartment next to the apartment of Hotta is belongs to Mary and Sera Masume , so these two womens represents Amanda and her bodyguard Asaka .
Let us not forget that at the end of this case Sera said that Asaka is a woman and it seems that Mary was not surprised , so it is certain Asaka is a woman and not a man and most likely she will be Wakasa Rumi .

we can consider that Mary represents Amanda and Sera represents Asak , or may be the reverse is correct .
In Hotta Gaito case , The killer /Sanpei Kokuri , decieved the people /Mouri and Conan , that the one who killed the victim came from outside and fled away as soon as they opened the door and jumped off the balcony , this may be a hint that Chikara Katsumata has attached the charge for Asaka who fled , meaning that he had made a trick To clear himself as the murderer /" Sanpei Kokuri " did in the Hotta Gaito murder case .
The person who solves the Hotta Gaito murder case is not Conan , but Mary who used Conan’s voice changer , I don’t know what Goshu wants to refer but it is possible that Goshu wants to say the person who solved the Kohji case is Tsutomu , Mary’s husband .

At the end of the case Sanpei Kokuri jumped from his balcony to Mary's balcony , so it is possible is a hint from Goshu that Chikara jumped from Kohji's balcony to Amanda's balcony after killing Kohji . and also Sanpei Kokuri was hit by Mary , this may also a hint that Tsutomo , when he investigated the case after it happened . He had a fight with Chikara , and Tsutomo who cause the damage to Chikara's eye , or may be the situation between Mary and Sanpei Kokuri , a hint that Wakasa who had a fight with Chikara to recover the piece of shogi that Chikara intended to get rid of . And we recently saw in the newly released farm case (1041 -1044) a hint that Wakasa had recovered the shogi piece from Bourbon so she might have a fight with Chikara too and took the piece from him .

This is what I was able to extract from Hotta Gaito case , and I may be wrong in understanding most of them , But I can assure you that this case which has many hints about what happened in the Kohji murder case and not the case that occurred in Chapter 948 949 950 , So I think you guys can extract hints from it more than me and analyze it better .

But let me remind you a few things that Goshu puts hints about the Kojhi case when it is mentioned by any one in any chapter . May be the reason for Koji's death that he discovered that Chikara cheats in Games , and Kohji warned him to do it again , or he would report it but Chikara killed him , the hint about that may the situation took place in chapters (1043-1046) when Haneda Shukichi known who is the killer in this case before everyone and he went to his house to order him to surrender to police , But the killer held him .

The last thing I would like to say is that Goshu left us with a hint of the identical characters of Haneda Koji and Wakasa Rumi which are Haneda Shukichi and Curacao in order .

Image
I agree that there is some similarity between kohji haneda
and hotta gaito case. especially regarding the two rooms analogy.
there is a good chance that this must be true.
but even you say kokuri looks like katsumata ( although
similarity is very little to me.)
but hotta gaito definitely doesnt look like kohji haneda.
maybe he is analogy of amanda hughes. maybe.

But just check next case . song named asaca. 954-957
here there is clear analogy between victim
rokumichi hado and kohji haneda . (see their hairstyle
and face structure).
also see the analogy in suspects.
they look like rum suspects.
kuroda, wakasa and wakita. very close lookalikes.p
since this is still kohji haneda arc. this is clearly not coincidence.
gosho clearly intends to make analogy between this
case and rum suspects.
there is possibility that gosho intended to make analogies
with all three cases in kohji haneda arc
( namely clenched scissors case, soul detective case
and song named asaca case)
with actual kohji haneda case.
but song named asaca with lookalike rum supects and
kohji lookalike looks the most promising analogy to me.
I have already written all my analogies regarding this case
in 1051 -1054 discussion last page.
if you are interested .you can have a look at this case
and tell what observation or analogy you can make
regarding kohji and rum suspects from this
song named asaca case.
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