Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » December 18th, 2019, 1:19 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Not an either/or scenario, but something sort of sounds out of context.

Let's for the sake of argument consider Hoye as a high-ranking official who wants to keep himself out of this mess as much as possible.
He already had called Kansuke and asked him to put Komei on the line. He already had made two witnesses who can testify that someone over the phone who called himself as Hoye Kuroda asked for Morofushi, and Morofushi will further testify that he told Morofushi something about Amuro.
For a high ranking official who wants as less of an involvement as possible, putting such a highly confidential and important call through Kansuke would have made no sense.

So chances are that Kuroda wanted to ensure that Morofushi's phone should have no trace. But for NPA Morofushi is a vulnerable person and potential BO target. So NPA must have investigated his phones thoroughly and Bourbon must have derailed BO's internal investigation about Scotch. So avoiding Morofushi's phone for the chance of a BO bug looks very unlikely.

So the other option is that Morofushi won't readily have access to the number from which Kuroda has called as the number would be in Kansuke's phone who will possibly delete it later and Kuroda might have asked Morofushi to not save/call this number as this number is is only used for confidential purposes. Which sort looks bad.

In a nutshell Kuroda despite saving Bourbon's cover is taking a route which is generally not taken by someone who wants to save one's cover. So chances are he might be setting up Komei against Amuro, by saying that "This traitor screwed over your bro and we'll get him in our trap. You just be quiet for time being."


What tips the scales in favor of the truth of that scene being Hyōe (Rum) trying to set up conflict between Rei/Bourbon and Taka'aki/Kōmei—for the ultimate purpose of dealing with Rei/Bourbon in a way that can't be traced to him—as opposed to Hyōe (just a high-ranking official and not a BO mole) warning Taka'aki/Kōmei not to approach Rei/Bourbon, lest he reveal a connection between them to Kanenori (Rum).
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 19th, 2019, 2:36 am

Image

This tips the scale. If you see Komei's actions there is a tinge of malice in his actions. In general if Kuroda just told him to stay away from Amuro, he would have just started his salutation with specifying Kogoro , so that Amuro doesn't come into picture at all. But he does what in Football/soccer is called a Juke i.e. a misdirection, even it caught Amuro by surprise. At the last moment he involves Kogoro, which is dangerous when someone's cover is at stake.

This shows malice, not affection. In reality he should have affection for Amuro(i.e. someone who might end up like my brother if I'm not cautious. It puts immense emotional responsibility on Komei which would show in his manner.) but it shows something different, the action of Komei is like a veiled threat to Amuro.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » December 19th, 2019, 7:03 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Image

This tips the scale. If you see Komei's actions there is a tinge of malice in his actions. In general if Kuroda just told him to stay away from Amuro, he would have just started his salutation with specifying Kogoro , so that Amuro doesn't come into picture at all. But he does what in Football/soccer is called a Juke i.e. a misdirection, even it caught Amuro by surprise. At the last moment he involves Kogoro, which is dangerous when someone's cover is at stake.

This shows malice, not affection. In reality he should have affection for Amuro(i.e. someone who might end up like my brother if I'm not cautious. It puts immense emotional responsibility on Komei which would show in his manner.) but it shows something different, the action of Komei is like a veiled threat to Amuro.


I just wonder why Komei suddenly mentioned a quote about time being like gold when there's no pressing or urgent situation at hand at the time they met for him to use such saying. Was it a saying that he thought of saying from himself or did someone else asked him to pass the word while without directly invovlving Amuro as the intended recipient?
Anyways, there's some interesting theory going on in this youtube video but too bad it's in German 8-) and someone mentioned this under the comments: "is interesting that Kuroda uses a different cell phone than before when talking to Koumei. Either it is a mistake or Kuroda uses a black cell phone when calling Bourbon and a white cell phone when calling the police and Koumei. Could mean something ... "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti32-GMHyPA
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » December 19th, 2019, 10:51 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Image

If you see Komei's actions there is a tinge of malice in his actions. In general if Kuroda just told him to stay away from Amuro, he would have just started his salutation with specifying Kogoro , so that Amuro doesn't come into picture at all. But he does what in Football/soccer is called a Juke i.e. a misdirection, even it caught Amuro by surprise. At the last moment he involves Kogoro, which is dangerous when someone's cover is at stake.

This shows malice, not affection. In reality he should have affection for Amuro(i.e. someone who might end up like my brother if I'm not cautious. It puts immense emotional responsibility on Komei which would show in his manner.) but it shows something different, the action of Komei is like a veiled threat to Amuro.


I can see that... sure, Gosho had those panels play out like that to make us think he was actually going to talk to Rei/Bourbon, but in terms of why Taka'aki/Kōmei did that in-universe...

blackmoon wrote:I just wonder why Komei suddenly mentioned a quote about time being like gold when there's no pressing or urgent situation at hand at the time they met for him to use such saying. Was it a saying that he thought of saying from himself or did someone else asked him to pass the word while without directly invovlving Amuro as the intended recipient?


Indeed, what prompted him to think "Time is money," as he walks away from them?

Could it be that Hyōe actually said "time is money" to Taka'aki/Kōmei?

blackmoon wrote:Anyways, there's some interesting theory going on in this youtube video but too bad it's in German 8-) and someone mentioned this under the comments: "is interesting that Kuroda uses a different cell phone than before when talking to Koumei. Either it is a mistake or Kuroda uses a black cell phone when calling Bourbon and a white cell phone when calling the police and Koumei. Could mean something ...


Hyōe always used his black phone until 1,030—he used it in 917/812, 980/897, 1,005/928, 1,008/942, 1,015 and 1,017.

For proponents of the Hyōe = Tsutomu theory, they will probably point to Shūkichi using two phones (black one in 860/745, 929/828; white one in 947/850 and 1,045), as well as him using a separate phone to contact Shūichi, just as Hyōe used a separate phone to contact Taka'aki/Kōmei. However, Shūkichi actually uses 3 phones—a black one he uses to text Masumi in 859–861/744–745 and receive a call from Yumi in 928–930/828–829; a white one (with a black front) he uses to call Yumi in 945–947/849–850; and a white one (with a white front) that Shūichi calls him with in 1,045 (and this is presumably the one he uses to text Shūichi in 1,016). Already, we have some differences between him and Hyōe—Hyōe has a white phone he's used to call Kansuke and get him to hand Kansuke's phone over to Taka'aki/Kōmei, and a black phone he seems to use for everything else. Shūkichi has three phones—he used two of his phones to call Yumi; he's used one phone to contact both Yumi and Masumi; and he has a phone that seems to be exclusively used to contact Shūichi. And, of course, he hasn't called someone for the purpose of asking them to hand their phone over to someone else and converse with that someone else, rather than simply call that someone else's phone.

The fact that Hyōe's using two phones, combined with him not calling Taka'aki/Kōmei directly (as well as contacting him and Rei/Bourbon with different phones, rather than with the same phone), but, rather, calling Kansuke so he could then hand the phone over to Taka'aki/Kōmei, all come together and mark Hyōe as suspicious... and not in a, "he's trying to keep Bourbon's cover getting blown by Rum (Kanenori)" way. I have to continue to concur with zerozaki that Hyōe's sure looking like Rum right about now.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » December 20th, 2019, 8:26 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:The fact that Hyōe's using two phones, combined with him not calling Taka'aki/Kōmei directly (as well as contacting him and Rei/Bourbon with different phones, rather than with the same phone), but, rather, calling Kansuke so he could then hand the phone over to Taka'aki/Kōmei, all come together and mark Hyōe as suspicious... and not in a, "he's trying to keep Bourbon's cover getting blown by Rum (Kanenori)" way. I have to continue to concur with zerozaki that Hyōe's sure looking like Rum right about now.


well... as someone else pointed out in a previous post (https://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=13563&start=30) that there were different recollections about the details of Kohji's dead body between Rumi + whoever was uploading the news about Kohji's death on the web and Kuroda's recollection of the image of Kohji, and will just quote that part here for simple reference:

"more precisely:
- Rumi remember Kohji after he died

while..
- Kuroda remember Kohji in point of death

this doesnt prove Kuroda is Kohji’s killer, but i think is probable. I think this is a very important clue, because is a clue only findable analyzing this two illustration, and not a simple red herring like he could only have seen him just before dying."

So yeah, if that were true then why'd Kuroda be there at Kohji's point of death instead of after his death? Another note that makes Kuroda more suspicious I'd say.
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 20th, 2019, 9:42 am

Image

So if we look at the differences then 3 things stand out.(Kuroda's version is on the left while Rumi's is on the right.)

a) Kuroda's version lacks the blood.
b) Kuroda's version has lower elevation and the observer was much closer to the body than Rumi's case.
c) Kuroda's version has bigger bruises.

So the third point is somewhat shaky as people claimed that the volume version had more changes to Kuroda's memory. I will tackle it later.

For first two points it is pretty evident that the blood was there in Hoye's memory. The lower elevation means either observing a crime scene photo which was taken from a lower and closer position or Hoye being there observing Kohji from a lower and closer position. Now why would a crime scene photo not get the blood from that angle? So the blood wasn't there when Hoye observed Kohji.

The third point is a bit fishy, either it is a mistake by Gosho or it is something different. A dead man's bruise doesn't increase in size. Hence Hoye saw Kohji before Rumi in that condition. (but this would also mean that after Hoye left Kohji was alive for sometime as some bruises shrank due to blood circulation.)

Rumi's memory seems to be genuine given Mary's memory about Kohji murder is consistent with Rumi's
Image

So all in all the picture puts Hoye in a tighter spot. Plus Kansuke's bemused reaction to Kuroda's call also meant that Kuroda did call from a different number. (Cause Kansuke still admires him, so he won't delete Kuroda's original number just like that.)

Also we don't see any recollections of Wakita about the case. Does his memory uniquely identifies his role in the case i.e. from crime scene photos only?
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » December 20th, 2019, 12:42 pm

blackmoon wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:The fact that Hyōe's using two phones, combined with him not calling Taka'aki/Kōmei directly (as well as contacting him and Rei/Bourbon with different phones, rather than with the same phone), but, rather, calling Kansuke so he could then hand the phone over to Taka'aki/Kōmei, all come together and mark Hyōe as suspicious... and not in a, "he's trying to keep Bourbon's cover getting blown by Rum (Kanenori)" way. I have to continue to concur with zerozaki that Hyōe's sure looking like Rum right about now.


well... as someone else pointed out in a previous post (https://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=13563&start=30) that there were different recollections about the details of Kohji's dead body between Rumi + whoever was uploading the news about Kohji's death on the web and Kuroda's recollection of the image of Kohji, and will just quote that part here for simple reference:

"more precisely:
- Rumi remember Kohji after he died

while..
- Kuroda remember Kohji in point of death

this doesnt prove Kuroda is Kohji’s killer, but i think is probable. I think this is a very important clue, because is a clue only findable analyzing this two illustration, and not a simple red herring like he could only have seen him just before dying."

So yeah, if that were true then why'd Kuroda be there at Kohji's point of death instead of after his death? Another note that makes Kuroda more suspicious I'd say.


Yes, exactly. Unless Volume 97 has a correction to those panels of Kōji in 1,032 and 1,033, we can take this as quite the evidence.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Image

So if we look at the differences then 3 things stand out.(Kuroda's version is on the left while Rumi's is on the right.)

a) Kuroda's version lacks the blood.
b) Kuroda's version has lower elevation and the observer was much closer to the body than Rumi's case.
c) Kuroda's version has bigger bruises.

So the third point is somewhat shaky as people claimed that the volume version had more changes to Kuroda's memory. I will tackle it later.

For first two points it is pretty evident that the blood was there in Hoye's memory. The lower elevation means either observing a crime scene photo which was taken from a lower and closer position or Hoye being there observing Kohji from a lower and closer position. Now why would a crime scene photo not get the blood from that angle? So the blood wasn't there when Hoye observed Kohji.

The third point is a bit fishy, either it is a mistake by Gosho or it is something different. A dead man's bruise doesn't increase in size. Hence Hoye saw Kohji before Rumi in that condition. (but this would also mean that after Hoye left Kohji was alive for sometime as some bruises shrank due to blood circulation.)

Rumi's memory seems to be genuine given Mary's memory about Kohji murder is consistent with Rumi's
Image

So all in all the picture puts Hoye in a tighter spot. Plus Kansuke's bemused reaction to Kuroda's call also meant that Kuroda did call from a different number. (Cause Kansuke still admires him, so he won't delete Kuroda's original number just like that.)

Also we don't see any recollections of Wakita about the case. Does his memory uniquely identifies his role in the case i.e. from crime scene photos only?


And the Volume 93 version kept the lack of blood.

But unlike with Jodie during the Vermouth arc (343/278), there's no hint that this is a photo he's recalling, as far as I can tell.

I suppose that specific point (assuming Gosho simply didn't make a mistake—we'll have to wait for Volume 97 to see if he corrects the bruises in Rumi's recollection to align with the bruises Hyōe recalls) could either play into the theory that while Rum killed Amanda, someone else killed Kōji... and/or that Hyōe is not Rum.

As well as Shinichi's/Conan's internal monologue from the current case, as well as 1,042—hers, Shinichi's/Conan's and Rumi's all seem to line up... leaving Hyōe the odd one out.

And he hasn't interacted with Rumi or Hyōe. The most he's done is observe Rumi's actions from afar and openly deem them quick-witted. He hasn't even engaged in distant observation of Hyōe.

That would align with the Kanenori = Tsutomu theory—Tsutomu only got involved upon the request of Kōji's father. This would seem to indicate that Tsutomu was not present at Juke Hotel on the day of the murders. This would, in turn, decrease the likelihood of the Hyōe = Tsutomu theory.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 29th, 2019, 8:13 am

Kuroda's first case involved Body-swap and death faking by using victims' bodies.
Kuroda's second appearance featured a culprit who killed to suppress the info of "Hiding 5 years" and "Involvement in hit and run."

Rumi's first case, skeletons inside the closet and repentance of past crimes.
Rumi's second case about a man masquerading as a woman.

Wakita's first case, a thief who was too obsessed to life a perfect family life.
Wakita's second case, retribution, framing of an innocent person and chemistry, a lot of chemistry.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Shinan-Kudogawa » January 5th, 2020, 9:05 am

Hi everyone, I'd like to weigh in, in the regards of the latest.

Regarding Rum's definite 3 suspects (Hyoue, Wakita and Wakasa) , as according to Gosho, Rum is one of them. We know:

1. Wakasa has seen Haibara/Sherry, we are still waiting to see her act on that. Haibara is not affraid of her.
+ knows about Conan's intelligence, yet to show concerns about him (in facts she helps). While Conan, notices the eye problem.

Interacted with Hyoue, if she is BO. She would make measures/attempt to hurry up per Rum's personna.
-----------------

2. Hyoue, has seen Haibara + Conan. Conan's knowledge in known to him, he has seen Haibara, and she has not sensed BO aura from him. she was simply scared from his face.

Hyoue has Bourbon as a contact
-----------------

3. Wakita, has seen Conan, does not exclusivly know about Conan's intelligence, yet to see Haibara.

Is engaged in everything Kogoro/Shinichi related. as of recently.

-----------------

Now, following the above, one usually falls to suspect Wakita as the primal suscpect. However, nothing can be conclusive. Yet, to follow leads, the facts that more than likely to reveal Rum's ID, are in his mistake regarding the 17 years old crime of Kouji and Amanda's death in U.S.

Regarding the double murder of Kouji and Amanda, what we know for sure:

1. Amanda, had contacts in CIA & FBI.
2. Amanda knew, and interacted with Kouji.
3. Amanda had the bodyguard by the name of Asaca.
4. Amanda's death have no traces, and the crime scene was left, as if nothing is touched. (This is the prevelant M.O of the B.O)

5. Kouji, was bruised.
6. Kouji's reason for death is unknown.
7. Kouji, held something in his hand (most likely the scissors + Shogi piece and/or mirror piece)
8. Kouji, knew someone was going to attack him (per the Wakasa flashback)
9. Kouji left the CARASUMA/ ASACA RUM message behind.

10. Tsutomo was requested by the Hanedas to look into the matter -> most likely he meddled after the incident took place.
11. Tsutomo realized he had made enemies with 'very bad people', to the point where he instructed his family to move to Japan. If the crime took place in U.S, and his family is in U.K, why would he ask them to move to Japan?, moreover, I'm going to risk guessing that he must've known about Mary's past in the SIS, and yet he was worried, meaning he knew his enemies well enough.

-----------------------

In regards to the above:

1. Amanda's contacts, prove that she was well connected. And for the BO to kill her, either means that; a) she knew of the BO, and they didn't want risk her revealing that info to FBI/CIA. or b) she was in fact a BO (probably like Pisco - his generation), and was about to turn in.
2. Amanda, already knows about the information that her life is in danger, she did hire a recent mysterious Asaca for that reason. Yet, had no problem to interact with Kouji, and risk getting him involved. Which means; a) she was too naive to trust him/others, which is highly doubtful for a woman with her experience. or b) Kouji was involved somehow with the BO.
3. For Amanda to hire a mysterious bodyguard, and for the sake of argumentation, she knows she is in danger. She would not hire anyone, if she truly knows the BO. The most reasonable option is that she hired someone from the FBI/CIA as bodyguard so that they can, not only protect, but also catch any suspicious person.

4. Amanda's crime scene, seems to be done by a pro. With no mistake whatsoever, something to be expected from an experieced criminal, suitable job for a 2nd in command.

5. Kouji's attacker, is not neccessarily Rum. For if it is, he/she would not make that much of a mistake, without taking it in consideration (imagine Anokata's overthinking proccess, and how Rum is rather way too reckless).

6. Same for Amanda, Kouji's death is not known. The most suspicious weapon, is the APTX, or a previous form that was made by the Miyanos.

7. Kouji's palm is bruised, the bruise indicates a defensive form while holding the scissors which he used to cut the mirror. With no strong evidence, a possible and yet relative option, is that Kouji bruised the eye of his attacker with the scissors.

The Shogi piece, was taken, meaning his attacker/another person took it. It cannot be the authorities, so either his killer took it to get rid of evidence, or someone else. We now know that Wakasa has a Shogi piece, if she did murder him, she would have no reason to hold a piece of evidence to implicate her, especially if she is Rum.

8. According to Wakasa's flashback, Kouji's statement gives the implication, that Kouji knew of his killer's intentions. So he knows his killer, and knew about the true identity of the killer to implicate ASACA RUM/CARASUMA. There are other alterations, such as U R MR. ASACA. SARCASM U. MRS. UACAA (as in Ooka :D ), they are fun to consider, but would not take them seriously :) .

9. The message, while can be interpreted either ways. Is too vague, whether Asaca is Rum, Carasuma is involved, or what. Which is perfect to mislead the criminal, yet for an intelligent person like Kouji, he must've left another clue to define the death message.

10. Tsutomo's interferrence, as requested by the Haneda household. Means they do not trust FBI/CIA enough, and they want to figure the true killer, instead of suspecting Asaca, as the most obvious. Means they knew something was off, to request the aid of Tsutomo.

11. Tsutomo's awareness of the 'bad people', shows how deep his investigations went. He knew of the danger his opponents carry, and warned his family. Meaning, he had a lead to follow and figure out the ones responsible, hence one can deduce that the BO are definitely are responsible. And they had to try and stop Tsutomo from finding out anything about them.

------------------

From the above, we can extract:

I. Wakasa, the holder of the Shogi piece, cannot be Rum. Otherwise she would despose of any evidence that can be traced back to her.

II. Most likely, one of the 3 (Hyoue, Wakita and Wakasa), have the damaged eye due to an attack by Kouji. Following this, the most likely injury to be from a scissors is Wakita's (we are yet to see).

III. Amanda, was most likely BO, and she was using her contacts to protect her from BO. So Asaca was hired.

IV. Kouji had to have something to do with BO, the only reason of the moment I can think of that he would be in the matter is that he is a BO, or a spy or a consultant.

V. Wakasa's flashback, heavily indicated Kouji's comment to be forwarded to her. Meaning, she is most likely his killer, unless proven otherwise. This indication, means she was close to him; the highest possibilty at the moment, is that Wakasa is Asaca, she was FBI/CIA or from other organization. She was hired to protect Amanda, a BO agent/ infromant. Meaning, the killer of Amanda, is someone else. Unless Wakasa was a double agent for the BO.

VI. Hyoue's past with Wakasa, indicates he had at least a distant relation to the crime of Kouji/Amanda. Being a police-personna, he was most likely a Japanese respresentative for the murder of Kouji, and had been at least close to the people in charge (if he was not the person in charge) to investigate the BO.

VII. Tsutomo's message 'Think of me as dead', heavily implicates that he is not dead but in hiding. Otherwise he would've said, "I'm by this time dead". Rather than implanting the dubious "Think of me". meaning he most probably is not dead, and is in hiding.

VIII. If we follow the premise, that Kouji was likely to land a strike on his attacker, and that strike hit the attacker in the eye. The injury that seems to be most likely made by scissors, is Wakita's. If Wakita did attack and kill Kouji, this would contradict Wakasa being the murderer. That is unless, an alternatie would be brought. Such as, Wakita being Rum, killed Amanda. While his protege, Wakasa, the BO double agent, was meant to attack Haneda. Something triggered her, and she had a change of heart, and thus the 'mistake'. She and Wakita fought, making the mess, while Kouji created the dying message. She was most likely knocked out, Kouji, went in, killed by a strike to the head, and then force-fed APTX (Like Shinichi). Wakita, being betrayed, leaves in a hurry, after suffering an injury. Tsutomo, finds clues thanks to the surviving Wakasa, who is torn between authorities and BO. Either, he is Hyoue, being a victim of a bomb, or a person in disguise. Which would explain, why Wakasa is still holding the Shogi piece and trying to make Conan figure it, to prove her innocence, or she might not be BO agent. And simply a bodyguard who failed at her job.

------------------------

ADDED:-

Regarding the APTX list:-

According to Haibara, the list is in a certain order:-

A) Maybe bloodtype, or something.

B) Haneda's name is below that of Shinichi's.

C) As a reaseacrher, and not much of a spiritual person, she visited the Mermaid Island.

D) The people who had used the APTX, and become younger in few years (rather than fully deaged/died), are interestingly foreign/ half Japanes. Except for Shinichi, Haibara is half-British, Vermouth is at least half Japanese/American, Mary is British.

E) Most male Japanese APTX vicitms, are dead (We still do not know of Tsutomo, if had taken it). the only exception is Shinichi, however his age is 17 by the time Gin force-fed him the APTX.

F) While Amanda died probably from APTX, being an American. Vermouth, most likely deaged from APTX. <-- meaning, either because age spectrum defines the effects of APTX. For example, those aged 17-19 will probably deage ten years to become 7-9 years.

G) Mary, is supposedly 13-15 after deaging. While her true age is about 53.
H) Vermouth, looked young 20 years ago, when she killed Jodie's father. So her deage took event before Kouji and Amanda's death.

I) Besides Shinichi & the self sacrifical Haibara, no known victim of APTX is younger than 20. If BO, thoguht it might work on Shinichi, and he was deaged because he is young. APTX probably have something to do with age difference and/or the strength of the immunity system of the body.

J) APTX <-- has deaging as side effect, and it was not the goal in mind. Most pills have medical treatment in goal. <-- I'm not a proffessional medical authority, all I have is self-taught knowledge. However, I'd think the most suitable solution is that, APTX was probably an Immunity strengthner. It enhances the cells, to make them younger, in order to enhance the immunity system. <-- a great medical achievement and possible conviction for the Miyano's to join BO.

The above brings to question BO's goals:-

A) BO's goal is not to rule the world (per an interview with Gosh..).

B) APTX, probably not the only project of BO.

C) According to Haibara, the BO existed more than 50 years ago. And Shinichi is part of it.

D) Anokata / Carasuma, is / was the boss of BO/Carasuma Group.

E) Itakura Suguro's application is not in favor of humanity (per his comment on his work).

F) BO at some point, is/was looking for the best programmers in the world.

G) Secrecy is their top priority.

----------

Summary:-

1. BO, probably a faction of Carasuma Group.

2. BO's line of work is based on the interests of it's mastermind. Someone who does not wish to be known for his involvement in the BO's affair, meaning either he is a famous person and/or someone who is supposedly not alive (Renya).

3. BO's reach, is international.

4. APTX, is an immunity enhancer, perhaps meant to cure Carasuma's sickly body.

5. The mermaid visit, is more than likely, an attempt to find out any medical recipes to keep the elderly alive for long periods of time.

6. Itakura's program, not exclusively tied to APTX. In fact, the programm might have something to do with hacking. The BO already have their hands on Night Baron Virus that can delete any files of theirs that is accessed unintendedly.

7. Rum's obsession with time, most than likely have something to do with Anokata himself.

8. BO's intention to kill Haibara, means the project have lots of people still working on it.

9. The deaging victims (Shinichi, Sherry, Mary, Vermouth) are spiteful of the effects.

10. Any defecting agents of BO, or those deemed unworthy, would/may end up being an APTX victim.

11. The earliest use of APTX is on Vermouth, 20 years ago.

12. Itakura's comment "For the sake of humanity", and Vermouth's " We can be both of God and the Devil". Heavily indicates that Karasuma Renya, is the topic. Following this, "raise the dead, against the stream time". He is supposedly dead, however they are trying to bring back his status to being alive and well. He is known as the most powerful person in Japan (according to the smarter character Yuusaku). It falls to be most appropraite since his resurrection is not in the interest of humanity.

13. Itakura's programm, what does it have to do with Karasuma Renya?. the most likely answer, Renya is in a comatose state/ill-filled condition. Providing explanation why he takes time to plan things, his extra careful nature, because he cannot allow mistakes to waste time. Rum's obsession with time, probably have something to do with the recovery of Renya, meaning his order onto Bourbon to find out about Shinichi. Is not just for secrecy purposes, but also for finding out medical instances that can help with Anokata's health.

14. Still, what does Itakura's programm have to do with Renya?. Itakura's background is CG graphic designer and games system engineer, and he wonders about the BO's intention with the program, yet he knows for certian that it is not good for the sake of humanity. One of the options is that, the programm is in fact a systematic data reconfiguration. Through which, the BO, would reinstall the inheritance of Karasuma household back to Renya. By altering information, and configuring numbers of accounts and the likes, to register all of Karasuma's properties back to him, and even gain more money. Thus raising the dead.

15. The project that is more than 50 years old, and not related to APTX (modern creation of Haibara) and/or Silver Bullet (the Miyanos started it, perhaps). Perhaps, the project is to put Karasuma back to power, and to reinforce Karasuma's control more than before.

--------------------------------------

Vermouth's relationship with Anokata:-

1. According to Bourbon, it will be a surprise to other BO agents.

2. Vermouth is well above 40 at least.

3. First signs of deaging are at least 20 years ago.

4. Vermouth parents 'died' in an accidental fire.

5. One of the reporters on Sharon's funeral, asked Chris about the boyfriend she is going out with.

6. Vermouth, prior to Shinichi saving her in New York, did not believe in the existence of God.

7. She is more like the boss, to think that a single Silver Bullet exists. Their mindset of thinking is somewhat similar.

8. The overly caution Anokata, promotes freedom to Vermouth, and calls her back when she goes too wild.

Vermouth could be:-

1. His daughter from an American mother, if Renya married an American woman. Although he puts his daughter in the risky business.

2. His wife, highly unlikely for her to be meddling in sexual affairs with Gin, if this is the case. Also if she is his romantic interest.

3. His guina pig, being the only one to deage, according to BO's knowledge. Yet again, why risk putting her in the field work.

4. His clone, however this goes beyond the fantasy implemented by Gosho.

5. His granddaughter, if her parents died (and it's not a lie). Her father is a Karasuma, and if Renya the grandfather, took it sensitively, then her father's made up Surname 'Vineyard' is taken as basis to nickname all agents, hence alcoholic beverages, if Gosho wants to give reasons. She blames the grandfather's status and fame that made her parents live the way they lived which led to their death, which is why when she was brought up to BO and through them gained fame through the Acting world. She hated the BO for that reason.

6. Vermouth is the only blonde/foreign agent of BO per canon. Indicating, the relationship goes more than formal/informal.

7. Gin, the only other silver haired foreigner (not sure if he is). could be another one of Anokata's grandchildren, which is why they commute through first hadn messages, although he could simply be so becasue of his adept skills.

-------------------------

Anyways, I might edit to comply any updates. What do you think?
Last edited by Shinan-Kudogawa on January 13th, 2020, 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
ultraviolence
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby ultraviolence » January 11th, 2020, 10:07 pm

That's a nice write up and summary, Shinan. Your speculation on Kouji and the idea that Amanda could have been a BO member are interesting.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » January 12th, 2020, 4:17 am

Shinan-Kudogawa wrote:7. Kouji's palm is bruised, the bruise indicates a defensive form while holding the scissors which he used to cut the mirror. With no strong evidence, a possible and yet relative option, is that Kouji bruised the eye of his attacker with the scissors.

Anyways, I might edit to comply any updates. What do you think?


Nice analysis... except point #7... why would Kouji only bruise the eye of his attacker with the scissor instead of stabbing the eye with it? If he stabbed with the blade of the scissor while holding the handle side, then there surely there would have been blood spilled, and we know there were no indication of blood on the scissor. If Kouji was holding the scissor with the reverse end (holding the blade side while hitting the attacker with the handle side) then surely that would only cause a bruise to the eye, but why would he do that if his life were in danger? Wouldn't it be strange to only cause a bruise to the eye if the attacker was aiming for his life? ;)
Or did he assume his assaulter wouldn't have killed him? Yet someone else came later and finished him off with the "death pill?"
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"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Shinan-Kudogawa » January 12th, 2020, 5:31 am

blackmoon wrote:
Shinan-Kudogawa wrote:7. Kouji's palm is bruised, the bruise indicates a defensive form while holding the scissors which he used to cut the mirror. With no strong evidence, a possible and yet relative option, is that Kouji bruised the eye of his attacker with the scissors.

Anyways, I might edit to comply any updates. What do you think?


Nice analysis... except point #7... why would Kouji only bruise the eye of his attacker with the scissor instead of stabbing the eye with it? If he stabbed with the blade of the scissor while holding the handle side, then there surely there would have been blood spilled, and we know there were no indication of blood on the scissor. If Kouji was holding the scissor with the reverse end (holding the blade side while hitting the attacker with the handle side) then surely that would only cause a bruise to the eye, but why would he do that if his life were in danger? Wouldn't it be strange to only cause a bruise to the eye if the attacker was aiming for his life? ;)
Or did he assume his assaulter wouldn't have killed him? Yet someone else came later and finished him off with the "death pill?"
???


True, one on the edge of life. Being attacked, would naturally stab the attacker, leading to blood. However are we sure that the scissors were not stained with blood?, there is nothing known fully about that. Furthermore, the fact is, his attacker is more than likely a far skilled martial artist that Kouji. Which would mean that the attacker managed to be bruised rather than stabbed, at a split second.

The scissors are yet to be fully revealed, plus kouji was probably near sighted, which reinforce the chance that he missed.
ultraviolence
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby ultraviolence » January 12th, 2020, 1:02 pm

D) The people who had used the APTX, and become younger in few years (rather than fully deaged/died), are interestingly foreign/ half Japanes. Except for Haibara, Vermouth is at least half Japanese, Mary is British.

Haibara has British heritage since her mother is British (or half British).
And seems like it will turn out that Mary and Haibara/Shiho's mother are sisters.

G) Mary, is supposedly 13-15 after deaging. While her true age should be above 30.

Meanwhile we know that she's 53.

6. Vermouth is the only blonde/foreign agent of BO per canon. Indicating, the relationship goes more than formal/informal.

What do you mean with that?
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Shinan-Kudogawa » January 13th, 2020, 2:45 am

ultraviolence wrote:
D) The people who had used the APTX, and become younger in few years (rather than fully deaged/died), are interestingly foreign/ half Japanes. Except for Haibara, Vermouth is at least half Japanese, Mary is British.

Haibara has British heritage since her mother is British (or half British).
And seems like it will turn out that Mary and Haibara/Shiho's mother are sisters.

G) Mary, is supposedly 13-15 after deaging. While her true age should be above 30.

Meanwhile we know that she's 53.

6. Vermouth is the only blonde/foreign agent of BO per canon. Indicating, the relationship goes more than formal/informal.

What do you mean with that?

ٍSorry, typo. Meant to say except for Conan.. and yeah Mary is 53 I'll fix that.. Thanks for updating..

What I mean, is the fact that since she is the only foreign member of BO (except perhaps for Gin).. it hints that she is more than likely, is having a deep relationship with Anokata, since she is his favorite, she is a foreigner, and does not seem like his romantic interest (we can guess this, from the 'martini' reference of Gin and Vermouth)....
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » January 18th, 2020, 7:23 am

Shinan-Kudogawa wrote:True, one on the edge of life. Being attacked, would naturally stab the attacker, leading to blood. However are we sure that the scissors were not stained with blood?, there is nothing known fully about that. Furthermore, the fact is, his attacker is more than likely a far skilled martial artist that Kouji. Which would mean that the attacker managed to be bruised rather than stabbed, at a split second.

The scissors are yet to be fully revealed, plus kouji was probably near sighted, which reinforce the chance that he missed.


True, we cannot be sure whether the scissor were not stained with blood except if it were yet the one at the crime scene were not then that brings a probability that RUM or the B.O. or whoever came after not managing to have time to do some clean up or tampering on the crime scene ~ that the crime scene was left as it were~ may be false. Let's assume that there were blood spilled and the scissor used by Kohji to attack the assaulter that was stained with blood was switched with one that was clean and a false "dying message" was set up instead by putting broken pieces of the mirror back into it's frame... then who would gain from such an act? A member of the B.O. or an enemy of the B.O. or someone else? ???

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