MeiTanteixX wrote:Kanenori is the only one (out of the 3) who wasn't portrayed as Rum to the same extent as your typical mislead character (like Subaru, Sera, Jodie) that it would even require a balancing exonerating portrayal to begin with (as in the case of Rumi's & Subaru's emotional-based, Kuroda's evidence-based and Jodie's & Sera's physical-based).
Of course, Vermouth arc, and even Bourbon arc by extension, are never gonna be the same as Rum arc on a surface-level, but there is always an underlying pattern in Gosho's writing and portrayal of plot characters through out his series that is consistent with his characters' planned role, which is what I'm trying to address when pointing out the key difference in portrayal between not just Kuroda & Araide, but even Kuroda & Amuro (who, like Kuroda & unlike Araide, was a portrayed suspect in a who-dunnit mystery).
I can agree that it is not my preference in general for Wakita to be Rum, but that's mainly due to his so-called "least portrayed as suspicious out of the 3" title is too suspicious enough to be Rum, based on Gosho's history. In File 975, Gosho actively made Conan highlight Wakita's similarity with Rum's description by remembering Haibara's words about Rum, and then actively pry on his eye (which is associating Wakita too much with Rum & making Gosho reveal his hand too much to the reader than he usually would if the suspect in question is the main antagonist). For that fundamental reason, complimented by the loudly incriminating Kamen Yaiba reference foreshadowing & ofc the obvious Amuro-like development (even having Conan pointing out "another apprentice?", which is an indirect callback to the previous main antagonist's intro), I don't think, or would like, for Wakita to be Rum.
However, Kuroda is even further gone in that department, so to me, he is definitely not a remainder in your process of elimination, and I would even say that Wakita is far more likely/desired outcome as Rum to me when consistency in Gosho's writing is concerned.
In terms of the consistency and patterns you refer to... how do we know Gosho isn't mixing things up this time around? If he doesn't, then it's easier for us to predict things. After the Bourbon arc, of course it's an easy prediction to just look at Kanenori and go, "welp, there's Rum!" For Gosho to have Kanenori be so similar the one who turned out to be it in the immediately preceding arc... it seems just a wasted opportunity for Gosho to just have such a character be it, once again. So I go with the notion that he made Kanenori like Rei in order to set up the twist, "hey, you'd thought I'd do that for two arcs in a row? Nope!"
Zerozaki4869 wrote:In Rum arc we see there are two types of suspects.
a) Type-1 : Kuroda and Rumi. They are operating in a suspicious manner right under the nose of the protagonist and the reader.
b) Type-2 : Wakita. He is only suspicious to readers and don't indulge much with the protaginits, even if he does he ensures that he isn't suspicious like the former two. He has the biggest baggage of meta-hints/misdirections to be Rum.
Now when we consider Kuroda and Rumi, both of them come off as Jodie/Masumi like suspects.(Conan knew nothing about them and they are operating in front of Conan) here Kuroda gets exonerated at the expense of Rumi. The things which really should be a character certificate for Rumi are used against her.
She is shown with a particular pattern of scars, more on her left hand less on her right hand. More on her outer upper arms. Which ensures a fight with knife wielding opponent. Now she has the APTX list but which she takes out after Shinichi is supposedly sighted. Why would she do that unless she is making some 2+2=4, i.e. APTX can shrink and Conan is very likely Shinichi. Any old/rehashed character who knows Conan's secret won't behave like that, mean she is a new kid on the block.
Haibara after getting triggered even considered whether Rumi is blind in one eye or not. So she was already considering that Rumi is Rum(the worst possible outcome) yet just one act of kindness(which was shrouded in lunacy and destabilising behaviour) gets her on Haibara's good book?
Answer is Haibara knows that despite her behaviour Rumi is not one of them, rather someone who might have shared some history with her family/parents.( I do have a lowkey idea that she is a sister of Haibara's dad and somehow is related also to Kohji)
Now Rumi gets entangled cause Haibara's overt rationalization of how Kuroda can't be Rum.
Here is we follow the idea that we can see Jodie/Araide were paired together. Haibara gets triggered, Jodie takes the blame cause she is the one portrayed with more suspicious behaviour which is directly pointed out and not Araide whose suspicious behaviours are to be deduced by the reader.
Here we see a similar Rumi/Kuroda pairing while Wakita playing the waiting game.
TBF Rumi is Jodie like character not Subaru like character. A Subaru character is someone who is set up by Conan i.e. Conan immediately trusts him despite the wrong auras. Which is significantly different from a Jodie like character who gets investigated/suspected by Conan at first.
Araide characters are generally paired with Jodie characters so that the Jodie constantly draws suspicion while the Araide can subtly hide behind that suspicion. (Which Kuroda does, if You suspect that Rumi is the trigger and is BO, Kuroda gets cleared off. An APTX list isn't the only thing that makes somebody BO.)
On the third issue, a reverse spy on the upper echelon of NPA is a twist in itself.
Kanenori's been off doing his own thing (hanging around with Kogorō), whereas Rumi and Hyōe have already caught each other's attention (true, Masumi and Rei didn't have proper interaction until the Rum arc, but they expressed interest in each other... and just like Hyōe stalked Rumi, Rei stalked Masumi).
Now that I think about it, Shūichi could be considered a Vermouth suspect—in 343/278, Shinichi/Conan remarks that, in addition to Jodie, there were two more suspicious people. One was "Dr. Araide." The other must've been Shūichi—he appeared multiple times and was on the bus (287–289/230–231) with the two other suspects, whereas James Black only appeared once (and did not reappear at all until the Kir arc began) and was not on the bus.
If we consider Shūichi the third Vermouth suspect, when comparing the Vermouth arc to the Bourbon and Rum arcs, we get either this...
"Dr. Araide" –> Rei/Tōru –> Hyōe
Jodie –> Shūichi/Subaru –> Rumi
Shūichi –> Masumi –> Kanenori
(If Kanenori turns out to be Tsutomu, then we have son, daughter and father playing the waiting game...)
"Dr. Araide" –> Rei/Tōru –> Hyōe
Jodie –> Masumi –> Rumi
Shūichi –> Shūichi/Subaru –> Kanenori
(Still all Akais playing the waiting game.
Yes, since we've yet to have one.
MeiTanteixX wrote:To throw in a third weaker case that relies on assumptions, M25 was hyped up by the staff to cause a bigger uproar than M20 (which involved unrevealed Rum). If M25 will involve a revealed Rum, then for the sake of an actual calculated twist value, by Gosho/movie staff, for casual DC movie-goers (that has followed the traditional DC movie releases), Rum should ideally have been introduced to them before he is revealed, which leaves us funnily enough with the 2 we are currently comparing, Kuroda Hyõe & Iori Muga (assuming M24 doesn't have a random Rumi & Wakita appearance). Kuroda's muted "Bourbon", and M22 guidebook that directly highlights him as potential Rum, ruins the twist value to the casual viewers, unlike Iori's mysterious intro that had Ayanokoji's chipmunk scared & running to hide in his pocket.
But you also had people dismissing
Hyōe as a suspect for that.
I can see the perspective of, "why else would such a thing happen?" But there's also the perspective the lil' one simply got spooked by the sounds of someone approaching, and it just happened to be Muga who was approaching.
Zerozaki4869 wrote: MeiTanteixX wrote: Zerozaki4869 wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:First of all, for a "hidden suspect" route, fundamentally, his development so far already checks the minimal requirements, similar to Araide, unlike Kuroda, who doesn't check the minimal requirements in a "one of the 3" route, like Amuro.
He doesn't check the minimal requirements(as shown by Kansuke i.e. Rum model),
a) He isn't strongly built(but has an attractive figure), he is womanly(checks), he has no old man like mannerisms. Biggest of all, his eye is not prosthetic neither he shows visual impairment like Rumi.
Secondly, Iori Muga is an effeminate man, which is one of the 3 descriptions of Rum, like stocky/strong-built man that Kuroda represents & old man that Wakita represents. Effeminate man role was however hijacked by Conan's "Asaka=Rum"-based alteration that Rum could be a "woman as strong as a man", which is what Wakasa represents. This type of move by Gosho, that ultimately hides an early foreshadowed Rum component in the narrative (and by extension suspects matching said component), is very on brand with a "hidden suspect" route, and considering that Asaka=Rum was altered in the narrative to Carasuma, there is no evidence anymore that supports the change from "effeminate man" to "woman as strong as a man". This further solidifies that effeminate men are credible options, and by extension Iori Muga, and with the amount of effort put to hide said Rum component, it further elevates the chances that Rum ends up being an "effeminate man" like Iori Muga, rather than the Jodie/Subaru-like "woman as strong as a man" that replaced it, Wakasa Rumi.
This creates a very binary interpretation. Effeminate man doesn't necessarily boils down to the fact that the man has womanly appearance only. It can mean a trait. Plus despite (Kansuke being used as a Rum model) the way of Rum suspects are in parallel with the 3 suspects of the lady's suicide case. In this hussle one seemingly forgets that Kuroda likes "tea" considered an effeminate drink and has white hair considered a sign of old age. So Kuroda is a complete Rum suspect like the Rum model. Nobody else comes to the foray.
So I would say Kuroda's feminine quality is much more subtle that Iori's. hence if anybody is gonna replace Rumi, it is likely to be Kuroda not Iori. So here on the display is Kuroda-stocky one eyed man, Rumi-one eyed woman as strong as a man, Wakita-one eyed old man. Here nowhere in the display is Kuroda the complete Rum suspect. If You're bored with these 3-over the table suspects you can play with Iori/Chikara a bit.
It really comes down to:
Is Rum either Hyōe, Rumi and Kanenori?
Is Rum a 4th suspect?
If it's the latter, then only Muga or Chikara could possibly be that suspect.
If it's the former, then that hinges to whether Gosho's simply going to go with Bourbon arc on repeat and have Kanenori be Rum, or he had Kanenori be so much like Rei in order to throw us off.
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