Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

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blackmoon

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

Well... speaking of Rumi, let's do a little addition and subtraction. First off, Rumi holds a list of APTX victims, and not just an old list, but a fairly new one with Shinichi's name appearing on it. How hard is it for someone to obtain such a list when any BO encripted file is protected by a night baron virus program? I doubt that even FBI has their hands on one, so any holder of the list most likely is affiliated with the BO and probably one in the level with a code name. Secondly, Rumi went straight to Conan's school and showed quite an interest in him. If she really were a BO member, then would she spend her time in an elementary school full of kids without a valid reason to do so? Thirdly, Kuroda seemed to be acquinted with Rumi since he once mentioned that it isn't like her style to go on a camping trip. This seems to suggest that the two have known each other from before and their encounter and interaction during the camping trip not only confirmed this, but additionally suggested that there appear to be some kind of gruge between the two. Lastly, since Rumi and Kuroda knew each other and Rumi was also acquinted with Kohji, then would Kuroda also have met Kohji in the past? What were the relationships between them?

And... anyways, i think any contradiction can be solved as in the previous files 939-941 ;)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:To be honst I consider that more than speculation/my desire to make Iori important. But if I were to answer you, then Ooka's dad/mom know about Iori but Momiji might not know. Like if Iori joins the household 5 years ago as a fullfledged young man, then he can attribute his lack of ageing by using diversion tactics like workout, efficient diet, ginseng etc.
I want him to be important, as well—and he's not the only one I'd like to be revealed as important (i.e., Chikara).
blackmoon wrote:First off, Rumi holds a list of APTX victims, and not just an old list, but a fairly new one with Shinichi's name appearing on it. How hard is it for someone to obtain such a list when any BO encripted file is protected by a night baron virus program? I doubt that even FBI has their hands on one, so any holder of the list most likely is affiliated with the BO and probably one in the level with a code name.

Secondly, Rumi went straight to Conan's school and showed quite an interest in him. If she really were a BO member, then would she spend her time in an elementary school full of kids without a valid reason to do so?

Thirdly, Kuroda seemed to be acquinted with Rumi since he once mentioned that it isn't like her style to go on a camping trip. This seems to suggest that the two have known each other from before and their encounter and interaction during the camping trip not only confirmed this, but additionally suggested that there appear to be some kind of gruge between the two.

Lastly, since Rumi and Kuroda knew each other and Rumi was also acquinted with Kohji, then would Kuroda also have met Kohji in the past? What were the relationships between them?

And... anyways, i think any contradiction can be solved as in the previous files 939-941 ;)
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All she really needs is a BO insider in her corner for her to get access to the list. The only way she's a BO member is if a BO member up the chain of command has allowed her and/or instructed her to put herself in the public eye (978–980/896–897)... or if she's actually Vermouth, as the likes of MeiTanteixX have asserted.

But recall—in the original Japanese text, Hyōe uses nonspecific pronouns. Hyōe could be making an assumption about who she is without knowing exactly who she is. And as for Rumi, she already had shown that she tenses up when she even hears about eye injuries—seeing Hyōe's eye might have been the cause for her staring at him so intensely when he revealed himself to her, as opposed to, "It's him! That guy who I know and recognize from a past event!" This would line up with what zerozaki and I have been talking about, in terms of Hyōe not having Rumi pinned down on his mental lay of the land—and why he only stalked her to begin with, rather than take a more drastic action against her right off the bat.

As was demonstrated in 939–941/843–844, seeing a person from a certain angle—and seeing that person next to people of different sizes and next to different colors/lighting—can influence one's perception of that person. BO members saw Rum from different visual contexts, and, from that, Rum's varying descriptions came to be.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
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— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

Rumi's scars tell us a different story altogether. If You take a look at her scars you can see that her left arm is more scarred than her right arm.
Her scars are slash type. Which means she was involved in a knife fight. Now add up her physical strength and stamina, plus battle scars, plus fighting people in a very closed space. She has quintessential qualities of being an agent of NPA.

Now the file can be the handiwork of an NOC with whom Rumi is collaborating. The same way Kir collaborates with Subaru.
Rumi's moral compass is Gray which is common phenomenon is cops who have seen some severe shit.

Her reaction to prosthetic and Kuroda are not in line with a person who is seeing "a ghost" rather someone who hates "prosthesis and men with prosthetic".
Kuroda is referring to a person who doesn't like to reveal himself/herself. Prey are the ones who reveal themselves not the predators. As if Kuroda thought that Rumi had something to do with a predator/is a predator but then thought Rumi is too conspicuous to be that.

Hoye is a complete Rum suspect(everyone else is incomplete even Iori)
He is strongly built(here a bunch of theorists make a mistake, Rum is not strong rather strongly built), has white hair( strong built has nothing to do with white hair, a man with white hair is considered old first even if he is strongly built ), Kuroda likes tea (which is not in-line with a macho man's drink as Kansuke pointed out, rather a woman's drink) and his prosthetic is glaring.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

DCUniverseAficionado wrote: "All she really needs is a BO insider in her corner for her to get access to the list. The only way she's a BO member is if a BO member up the chain of command has allowed her and/or instructed her to put herself in the public eye (978–980/896–897)... or if she's actually Vermouth, as the likes of MeiTanteixX have asserted."
Well that makes sense.... except considering that previously we saw Vermouth with a body clean without scars, it's more likely for Rumi to be some B.O. agent sent by Vermouth to look after her "treasure." :D

Although i do have personal reasons to suspect Rumi being RUM or closely related to RUM, i also can't deny the fact that Gosho has this tendency of making the most obvious suspect NOT being the "actual" curpit. :P
DCUniverseAficionado wrote: But recall—in the original Japanese text, Hyōe uses nonspecific pronouns. Hyōe could be making an assumption about who she is without knowing exactly who she is. And as for Rumi, she already had shown that she tenses up when she even hears about eye injuries—seeing Hyōe's eye might have been the cause for her staring at him so intensely when he revealed himself to her, as opposed to, "It's him! That guy who I know and recognize from a past event!" This would line up with what zerozaki and I have been talking about, in terms of Hyōe not having Rumi pinned down on his mental lay of the land—and why he only stalked her to begin with, rather than take a more drastic action against her right off the bat.

As was demonstrated in 939–941/843–844, seeing a person from a certain angle—and seeing that person next to people of different sizes and next to different colors/lighting—can influence one's perception of that person. BO members saw Rum from different visual contexts, and, from that, Rum's varying descriptions came to be.
Also what you said makes sense, which brings another minor detail to attention, which is despite all the conflicting statements about RUM, all those who saw him\her notices and relays RUM having a prosthetic eye, which also means that it is obvious to spot and identify and not concealed. So unless Rumi is actually wearing a mask to cover up both her face and her eye, it is not very obvious to see her having a prosthetic eye at first sight. ;)
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
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blackmoon

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Hoye is a complete Rum suspect(everyone else is incomplete even Iori)
He is strongly built(here a bunch of theorists make a mistake, Rum is not strong rather strongly built), has white hair( strong built has nothing to do with white hair, a man with white hair is considered old first even if he is strongly built ), Kuroda likes tea (which is not in-line with a macho man's drink as Kansuke pointed out, rather a woman's drink) and his prosthetic is glaring.
Well... except i can't wait to see what may be underneath the eye cover of Wakita who has this eye infection that seems to take forever to be healed and occasionaly lady-like postures. ;D

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Rumi's scars tell us a different story altogether. If You take a look at her scars you can see that her left arm is more scarred than her right arm.
Her scars are slash type. Which means she was involved in a knife fight. Now add up her physical strength and stamina, plus battle scars, plus fighting people in a very closed space. She has quintessential qualities of being an agent of NPA.

Now the file can be the handiwork of an NOC with whom Rumi is collaborating. The same way Kir collaborates with Subaru.
Rumi's moral compass is Gray which is common phenomenon is cops who have seen some severe shit.

Her reaction to prosthetic and Kuroda are not in line with a person who is seeing "a ghost" rather someone who hates "prosthesis and men with prosthetic".
Kuroda is referring to a person who doesn't like to reveal himself/herself. Prey are the ones who reveal themselves not the predators. As if Kuroda thought that Rumi had something to do with a predator/is a predator but then thought Rumi is too conspicuous to be that.

Hoye is a complete Rum suspect(everyone else is incomplete even Iori)
He is strongly built(here a bunch of theorists make a mistake, Rum is not strong rather strongly built), has white hair( strong built has nothing to do with white hair, a man with white hair is considered old first even if he is strongly built ), Kuroda likes tea (which is not in-line with a macho man's drink as Kansuke pointed out, rather a woman's drink) and his prosthetic is glaring.
Was this a recent fight she got in, or has she had those for quite some time?

Yes, exactly.

Muga is more thinly-built than Hyōe—and Hyōe is taller than Kanenori, as well. So between himself, Rumi, Kanenori and Muga, Hyōe is the most strongly-built.
blackmoon wrote:Well that makes sense.... except considering that previously we saw Vermouth with a body clean without scars, it's more likely for Rumi to be some B.O. agent sent by Vermouth to look after her "treasure." :D

Although i do have personal reasons to suspect Rumi being RUM or closely related to RUM, i also can't deny the fact that Gosho has this tendency of making the most obvious suspect NOT being the "actual" curpit. :P
That's right—it's a major point against that theory.

Yes, exactly. Rumi has been portrayed as a violent force with psychotic tendencies—a force that would clearly be a threat to Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai if she decided to go after them. Her turning out to be Rum would be consistent with the notion that Rum is a threatening force... but regardless of whether or not one would look forward to/be excited about such an outcome and be satisfied with it, it simply wouldn't be a surprise.
blackmoon wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:Hoye is a complete Rum suspect(everyone else is incomplete even Iori)
His prosthetic is glaring.
Well... except i can't wait to see what may be underneath the eye cover of Wakita who has this eye infection that seems to take forever to be healed and occasionaly lady-like postures. ;D
Kanenori's damaged eye is covered—those looking at him would not think, upon making visual contact with him, "oh, he has a prosthetic eye!" They would focus on his eyepatch, rather than whether the eye behind it was real or not.

Hyōe's damaged eye, on the other hand, is not covered—and comes with facial scarring. Kanenori merely has an eyepatch over his eye.
blackmoon wrote:Also what you said makes sense, which brings another minor detail to attention, which is despite all the conflicting statements about RUM, all those who saw him\her notices and relays RUM having a prosthetic eye, which also means that it is obvious to spot and identify and not concealed. So unless Rumi is actually wearing a mask to cover up both her face and her eye, it is not very obvious to see her having a prosthetic eye at first sight. ;)
939–941/843–844 tells us that the BO members who witnessed Rum came to the conclusion Rum had a prosthetic eye via seeing Rum from a certain angle, seeing Rum next to people of different sizes and different colors/lighting—no matter the angle Rum was observed from, no matter who Rum was standing next to and no matter the different colors/lighting next to and surrounding Rum, an observer would come to the conclusion that Rum had a prosthetic eye. For such a consistency in descriptions, there must have been a consistent sighting—perhaps an action that showed Rum was vision-impaired.

Now, if it was an action that showed Rum was vision-impaired, one would assume, "Oh, it's Rumi! Her eye problem was revealed by action (987–989/909–910), rather than physical characteristic (i.e., facial scarring)!" But that very assumption is an assumption Gosho would want us to make—to fall for his misdirect. We'd expect her to reveal her eye problem by action, rather than by someone simply observing a physical characteristic. We wouldn't expect Hyōe to reveal his eye problem by action—we'd expect mere visual observation of the right side of his face to reveal that.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
Zerozaki4869

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

"Was this a recent fight she got in, or has she had those for quite some time?

Yes, exactly.

Muga is more thinly-built than Hyōe—and Hyōe is taller than Kanenori, as well. So between himself, Rumi, Kanenori and Muga, Hyōe is the most strongly-built."

I don't think that fight had been very recent as the scars are more in line with Kansuke's/Matsumoto's.

That's where the strongly built/strong giant becomes important. None other than Kuroda qualifies for it.


To complement your assertion about Wakita's eyepatch, I would also like to add, that the Eyepatch is Wakita's gateway for intel gathering. Which sort of ensures that without the eyepatch wakita would be bound to the kitchen, which is not an option given Wakita's intel-gathering nature. Having a prosthetic eye would surely qualify Wakita for the same benefits.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:To complement your assertion about Wakita's eyepatch, I would also like to add, that the Eyepatch is Wakita's gateway for intel gathering. Which sort of ensures that without the eyepatch wakita would be bound to the kitchen, which is not an option given Wakita's intel-gathering nature. Having a prosthetic eye would surely qualify Wakita for the same benefits.
Indeed. Which brings us to the big picture motive behind this fake injury—inserting himself in Kogorō Mōri's orbit... just like Rei/Bourbon. This leads to three possibilities:
1) Gin, distrustful of Bourbon, and wary of Kogorō's further involvement in cases the BO wishes to suppress the truth of, has sent an operative he's not so distrustful of to keep an eye on Kogorō, so if there are things Bourbon is keeping secret, Gin will know.
2) A 3rd party with his own agenda has inserted himself into events to keep an eye on what's happening from close by, and intervene, if necessary.
3) Gin, distrustful of Bourbon, and wary of Kogorō's further involvement in cases the BO wishes to suppress the truth of, has sent an operative he's not so distrustful of to keep an eye on Kogorō, so if there are things Bourbon is keeping secret, Gin will know... however, this operative he has sent actually has an agenda of his own, and is taking advantage of this assignment to keep an eye on what's happening from close by, and intervene, if necessary.

Another thing I suppose is worthy of at least mention—Hyōe was introduced (913–917/810–812) before the Amanda Hughes/Kōji Haneda double murder case was revealed (948–950/861–862), whereas Rumi (966–968/889–890) and Kanenori (975–977/894–895) were introduced after. After another appearance immediately after his debut (918–920/814–815), Hyōe did not appear again until after Rumi and Kanenori were introduced (978–980/896–897). Rumi's introduction followed the reveal of the Amanda/Kōji double murder (4 cases separated the Kōji case reveal and her intro), Kanenori's introduction immediately followed the introduction of Tsutomu Akai (972–974/881–882), and Hyōe's introduction followed Shinichi's/Conan's initial suspicions that Kansuke was Rum (909–912/808–809), which had been immediately preceded by Shiho/Ai revealing Rum's conflicting descriptions and eye injury (906–908/792–793).
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

That is really worthy of mention. Kuroda gets slipped in, immediately gets the clean chit from Sherry (by Aura radar and by no action taken regarding her.) when the real Rum related exposes happen only then Rumi and Wakita surfaces. Which sort of solidifies the nature of these two. They are not the first movers rather they are reacting to a development. Kuroda who knows what he is doing,
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:That is really worthy of mention. Kuroda gets slipped in, immediately gets the clean chit from Sherry (by Aura radar and by no action taken regarding her.) when the real Rum related exposes happen only then Rumi and Wakita surfaces. Which sort of solidifies the nature of these two. They are not the first movers rather they are reacting to a development. Kuroda who knows what he is doing,
If that was Shiho's/Ai's BO radar being triggered in 987/909, then there are only two possibilities:
1) Rumi, standing behind her
2) Hyōe, watching Rumi from his tent

After he was "exonerated," and the sight of Rumi's noticeable reaction—and how Shiho/Ai focused on her, at that moment—she would naturally draw attention and suspicion away from him.

And it's been established that Rum was on the move at the time of 898/793.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

Kohji's hand comparison
If it's not an error I'm calling Bullshit on the uploader and any Kohji knowing Karasuma theory
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Kohji's hand comparison
If it's not an error I'm calling Bullshit on the uploader and any Kohji knowing Karasuma theory
Hmm.... just wondering if it was really necessary to GRIP a scissor very tightly if Kohji had the time and leisure in making up a dying message before his death, and whether it was REALLY necessary to grip the scissor so TIGHTLY if it were ONLY used to make a dying message? ^-^

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In my mind somehow i picture Kohji holding the scissor very tightly in defence in order to stab at a possible assaulter before his death... if he was simply forced to injest APTX poison, I wonder if he would still have any strength left to leave behind a dying message? ::)
We'd assume that RUM left in a hurry leaving the crime scene behind all messy, but what if he DID somehow had time to clean up the blood stained floor and scissor and leave behind a dying message giving a false lead? But... that's just a theory without any proof. ;D
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

DCUniverseAficionado wrote: Kanenori's damaged eye is covered—those looking at him would not think, upon making visual contact with him, "oh, he has a prosthetic eye!" They would focus on his eyepatch, rather than whether the eye behind it was real or not.

Hyōe's damaged eye, on the other hand, is not covered—and comes with facial scarring. Kanenori merely has an eyepatch over his eye.
Well considering Rumi's obvious instability in her character and Hyoe's obvious damaged eye, I'd say that Wakita is the most "hidden" out of the 3 since underneath his eyepatch could be a normal uninjured\uninfected eye, a prosthetic eye that he is covering up or an infected eye, which he said it was. And despite his claims of being a sushi chef that travels around, he could actually be someone else entirely.

If RUM were to appear in public and in front of the sleeping Kogoro to investigate him, it is very unlikely that he would do so with his true face without a disguise, which coincides with a prior BO member, Vermouth, who approached Conan wearing a mask, and hence reflects back to the words "put on mascara" on the mirror at the crime scene where RUM was involved 17 years ago.

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

Yes, there are three contradictions
a) The colour of the cuff.
b) In Rumi's memory the cuff was peeled up higher, in the pic it is much lower.
c) The scissors have debris both on its blade and on its handle. So the scissor was on the ground before the breaking of the crockery. Which contradicts the narrative that Kohji died with the scissors tightly gripped in his hand. But the marks says otherwise, so all in all these photos are not from the crime scene.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

blackmoon wrote:Well considering Rumi's obvious instability in her character and Hyoe's obvious damaged eye, I'd say that Wakita is the most "hidden" out of the 3 since underneath his eyepatch could be a normal uninjured\uninfected eye, a prosthetic eye that he is covering up or an infected eye, which he said it was. And despite his claims of being a sushi chef that travels around, he could actually be someone else entirely.

If RUM were to appear in public and in front of the sleeping Kogoro to investigate him, it is very unlikely that he would do so with his true face without a disguise, which coincides with a prior BO member, Vermouth, who approached Conan wearing a mask, and hence reflects back to the words "put on mascara" on the mirror at the crime scene where RUM was involved 17 years ago.
If we're talking which one of them has the most "hidden" eye damage, then it's Rumi, by far. You can't tell just by looking at her that she has an eye issue, whereas one look at Hyōe's face and Kanenori's eyepatch tells you immediately.

Yes, like Tsutomu Akai.

I don't think "Put on Mascara" was meant to point us to that conclusion, though.
Zerozaki4869 wrote:Kohji's hand comparison
If it's not an error I'm calling Bullshit on the uploader and any Kohji knowing Karasuma theory

there are three contradictions
a) The colour of the cuff.
b) In Rumi's memory the cuff was peeled up higher, in the pic it is much lower.
c) The scissors have debris both on its blade and on its handle. So the scissor was on the ground before the breaking of the crockery. Which contradicts the narrative that Kohji died with the scissors tightly gripped in his hand. But the marks says otherwise, so all in all these photos are not from the crime scene.
If you look at the bits of crockery beneath/next to his hand, they've shifted, as well, between 948 and 1,033... and the "Juke Hotel" has shifted to the right in Rumi's recollection... so this might be on Gosho.

Just in case it was intentional, though... who did know, then?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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