Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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blackmoon

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

And by the way, if we were to follow and believe that all BO codenames for male members are alcohol and wine for female members, then RUM, which is an alcohol, should clearly be a male! Unless you care to cater the idea of RUM being a pervert who likes to dress up as a female, then that leaves us with only 2 male suspects that can potentially be RUM. And like Akai who likes to drink Bourbon, I believe Rumi once mentioned that she likes to drink whisky? ::)

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Zerozaki4869

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

MeiTanteixX wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:I don't think Rum's target is Shinichi, it looks more like Rum's target is the spy infestation.
Except... it is quite clearly shown that Rum is interested and gathering intel on Kudo Shinichi (File 1008), while it's in fact Gin who is revealed to be concerned and planning to take action towards the spy infestation (File 898).
If we are following the same manga then we should come to the conclusion that Rum came out of hibernation for something else as mentioned at the epilogue of Scarlet series. At that time no rumours about an alive Kudo Shinichi were circulating. So Rum's initial/primary movement isn't triggered d by supposed Shinichi sighting. It appears targeting Shinichi is a cog in Rum's grand plan.
Last edited by Zerozaki4869 on November 3rd, 2019, 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

Well we can postulate two possible foreshadowings in that way,
Rumi likes Whiskey. Rumi investigating Whiskey.
Kuroda likes Red-Tea. Kuroda investigating Akai Tsutomu.
Wakita waited Highball, Cola and Oolong-tea(a less oxidised version of red tea).
It is heavily implied that Wakita->Japanese Whiskey
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

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Zerozaki4869 wrote:"So Hyōe is concerned about Rumi enough to stalk her, but not to go further than that?"
Yup, to be honest the repercussions of that encounter is already started to take shape. Possibly Kuroda is manipulating Bourbon/NPA to get more info about Rumi.
And that manipulation involves his call with Taka'aki/Kōmei in 1,030, right? Naturally, he'd want to steer Hiromitsu's/Scotch's brother into thinking that not only did Hyōe have nothing to do with Hiromitsu's/Scotch's death, but also that someone else is responsible for blowing his cover, and that it's, say, either Rei or Kanenori he should be investigating. If Hyōe knows that Shūichi is alive (if Rei briefed him about his investigation into Shūichi's supposed death, if he got his permission to carry out the Scarlet Showdown raid, and if he got a report from Rei about the results of that raid), he may even try to turn Taka'aki/Kōmei against Shūichi.
Zerozaki4869 wrote:"He's connected her to the Amanda/Kōji murders—a huge point of exposure for the BO—if he wasn't prepared to go farther than stalking her in 987–989, when will he cross that line?"
He doesn't know whether Rumi is an idiot or Rumi is a trap, so he is treading with caution. Also I think Hoye is yet to place Rumi in the picture unlike Kanenori.
So he is not only aware of Kanenori, but has placed him within the big picture context? When did he find out about this drifting sushi chef, and from who?
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

"And that manipulation involves his call with Taka'aki/Kōmei in 1,030, right? Naturally, he'd want to steer Hiromitsu's/Scotch's brother into thinking that not only did Hyōe have nothing to do with Hiromitsu's/Scotch's death, but also that someone else is responsible for blowing his cover, and that it's, say, either Rei or Kanenori he should be investigating. If Hyōe knows that Shūichi is alive (if Rei briefed him about his investigation into Shūichi's supposed death, if he got his permission to carry out the Scarlet Showdown raid, and if he got a report from Rei about the results of that raid), he may even try to turn Taka'aki/Kōmei against Shūichi."

Just a couple of observations,
a) Kuroda arrives at Nagano, much later. Scotch had been killed for some years now, yet the sudden interest of NPA in Komei looks odd. If NPA was worried about Komei then they would have mobilized after Scotch's killing/made prefecture to transfer Komei at NPA for closer observations.
b) Trust deficit between Bourbon and Kuroda. Cause Bourbon was chatting about the serial murder case just fine, but when the meeting with Akai and Kudo parents were mentioned he got a jumpscare. So likely Kuroda doesn't know about Akai being alive cause Amuro possibly have ordered his NPA lackeyes to keep their mouth shut.

"So he is not only aware of Kanenori, but has placed him within the big picture context? When did he find out about this drifting sushi chef, and from who?"
Should have used the final panel of that case. What I mean was this, Kanenori at least knows Rumi's goals and motive or has a fair idea about what Rumi is unlike Hoye.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

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Zerozaki4869 wrote:a) Kuroda arrives at Nagano, much later. Scotch had been killed for some years now, yet the sudden interest of NPA in Komei looks odd. If NPA was worried about Komei then they would have mobilized after Scotch's killing/made prefecture to transfer Komei at NPA for closer observations.
b) Trust deficit between Bourbon and Kuroda. Cause Bourbon was chatting about the serial murder case just fine, but when the meeting with Akai and Kudo parents were mentioned he got a jumpscare. So likely Kuroda doesn't know about Akai being alive cause Amuro possibly have ordered his NPA lackeyes to keep their mouth shut.
Yes, it's possible Rei is keeping things from his superior because he may have come to suspect his involvement in Hiromitsu being exposed as a NOC.

If Rei has kept Shūichi's survival in the dark, it would thus follow that he's omitting Shūichi's presence from the meeting with the Kudos (1,012) in any reports he makes to Hyōe about this meeting... so what, then, has Rei told Hyōe about this meeting? Does Hyōe know where this meeting took place, and that Yusaku and Yukiko were both present and demonstrated that they had full knowledge of the BO? Especially with Shinichi's time in the public spotlight, this is going to make Hyōe (if he's Rum or Rum's subordinate) even more wary than usual—even if he doesn't know that Shūichi was there.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

I don't think Rei had told anything about the meeting to either Rum or Hoye. The manga panel after NPA's failure in the scarlet arc, Rei mentioned that "he will handle the seniors about the mission." Possibly he must have said something like a misadventure or something of that sort.

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But I think Hoye has instructed Bourbon to do two jobs, one which could have been hampered due to the serial murderer of policewomen and the other being the information about investigation of Kudou Shinichi.

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

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Zerozaki4869 wrote:I don't think Rei had told anything about the meeting to either Rum or Hoye. The manga panel after NPA's failure in the scarlet arc, Rei mentioned that "he will handle the seniors about the mission." Possibly he must have said something like a misadventure or something of that sort.

But I think Hoye has instructed Bourbon to do two jobs, one which could have been hampered due to the serial murderer of policewomen and the other being the information about investigation of Kudou Shinichi.
At this point, I'm with you on Hyōe = Rum (or Rum's subordinate, even). Kanenori being Rum would be quite the rehash of the Rum arc's immediate predecessor, for there are just too many similarities between him and Rei... and as for Rumi, she's been cast in such a light with those certain violent tendencies of hers (968/890, 989/910), such that I consider her as more likely to be an unstable 3rd party with her own agenda than anything else—Gosho's pushed the violent psychotic angle so much with her, and shown it so much to us, that I doubt she's actually going to turn out to be Rum. That leaves Hyōe... and back when he first appeared (913–920/810–812 & 814–815), I absolutely thought him being Rum would be too obvious... but now that he has got company on the Rum suspect list, he seems the most likely. We have moments of him being "exonerated" from being Rum, so to speak (925/822 – "Oh, he came face to face with Shiho/Ai and nothing came of it, and the characters, themselves, even point that out!" / 1,017 – "Oh, he's Rei's boss in the NPA! Nothing suspicious about him referring to Rei by his BO codename and Rei looking nervous when the matter of his meeting with Shūichi and the Kudos comes up!") No such "exoneration" moments have happened with Rumi and Kanenori—Rumi's been portrayed as concealing violent psychosis, and Kanenori has mirrored Rei/Tōru, who turned out to be Bourbon.

What do you think of Dr. Agasa's skull coaster trick from 898/783? imo, it meant that there are four Rum suspects, not three.

From there, the following could be contended—since Hyōe, Rumi and Kanenori have been presented to us as the Rum suspects (the three coasters with skulls drawn on them), it followed that someone like Muga or Chikara was the hidden fourth suspect, and, thus, since they were hidden/not presented to us as a Rum suspect (the one coaster that did not have a skull drawn on it), they were actually Rum. What do you think of this contention? I used to be fairly confident about it, but now I'm not so sure.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

I still think that Hoye had called Bourbon as being just Hoye and not as a BO member, but Bourbon doesn't trust Hoye with those info.
Yes, you're right in pointing out the exoneration of Hoye as a Rum suspect, the reasoning furnished there is incomplete.
a) Even if Bourbon had been found out as a mole, there is no reason to mistrust him of Sherry murder, cause another non-mole character Vermouth herself will testify that Sherry was killed. So Rum not recognising Ai is just a fallacy generating from a wrongful assumption that Rum is suspecting the Ai's death is equal to Rum knowing Bourbon is a mole.
b) When Kuroda was talking to Bourbon he gave out enough hints that he is calling Bourbon as his NPA boss, not as someone else.

But two things stick out like sore thumbs,
a) Rum as of now hasn't called Rei, only had texted him.(BO operatives do call people, Gin uses voice calls all the time.)
b) Wakita bends his knees to hide his true height also arches his back to look droopy.

These two things boil down to one single idea,
a) Wakita is wary that when he will approach Kogoro there might be someone who shouldn't see his true height and stature.
b) Bourbon already interacts with Rum, but doesn't know the man who is talking to him is really Rum.

So it boils down to Wakita a BO agent who had been seen by Bourbon and Rum as someone else is in contact with Bourbon.

Now if we use that trick of Agasa, out of 3+1 suspects one should be clear(i.e. no hidden Rum-likeness) the clear one would be Rum.
Now when Kuroda got cleared off just after he appeared. All Rum suspects(discounting Chikara) i.e. Rumi, Kanenori and Muga had appeared after Hoye got his clean chit.
Now there is a very funny thing about Gosho's answer that Rum is one among Kuroda, Wakita and Rumi.
Wakita and Rumi are fake names(which is almost clear to everyone) but Kuroda is a real name. So there is a chance that both this Kuroda and Rum had the same name, that's why Rum was able to take Kuroda's place.(I think Real Kuroda was to protect Amanda as Asaka).
Now Asaka was real Kuroda but Rum replaced real Kuroda before Asaka even went to Amanda.
Then he killed Amanda, Kohji realised that he was his acquaintance, "Hoye Kuroda the second." so Kohji also had to die.
Now I'm stuck at Kuroda's coma. If Kuroda was in a coma when all these things were happening, then this Kuroda is surely a fake and was brought in after he was seriously damaged. Then NPA switched him with real Kuroda because this guy was a very trustowrthy person of NPA(i.e. Asaka who wasn't Kuroda but got switched by Rum.)
If Kuroda's coma started after Kohji incident, then the one who got into coma was a fake altogether and was someone who already had neutralized real Kuroda( i.e. Asaka in that case.)

Now if we assume that real Kuroda/Asaka was aptxed by Rum and somehow survived what would be real Kuroda?
This real Kuroda is good at protecting, had strong features and was in such a precarious condition that he couldn't come out to unmask the faker( as nobody would believe him.) In that case asaka/real Kuroda would be Iori Muga who had been given the same APTX like thing which halted Vermouth's ageing.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

Well, we saw from prior chapters in the manga that the "current" Kuroda was having flash-blacks recalling the crime scene of the bruised and dead Kohji Haneda. So he must either be the same Kuroda as the one who was the police at the time investigating the crime scene OR the curpit who commited the murder causing the crime scene OR someone else who was a witness of the crime scene. Now which one of the three? And why did Rumi dropped the four-leaf clover anyways? ;)

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:But two things stick out like sore thumbs,
a) Rum as of now hasn't called Rei, only had texted him.(BO operatives do call people, Gin uses voice calls all the time.)
b) Wakita bends his knees to hide his true height also arches his back to look droopy.

These two things boil down to one single idea,
a) Wakita is wary that when he will approach Kogoro there might be someone who shouldn't see his true height and stature.
b) Bourbon already interacts with Rum, but doesn't know the man who is talking to him is really Rum.

So it boils down to Wakita a BO agent who had been seen by Bourbon and Rum as someone else is in contact with Bourbon.
While he doesn't always do it, it is quite apparent when he does—since when he's in crowds (in 975–977/894–895 and 1,027–1,031), he seems to be the only one doing one or the other, or both.

And since both Gin and Mary used the same phrase (953/864), it follows that the one who said it is in the BO. We have Kanenori as a frequent user of phrases... and we have Tsutomu as a frequent user of phrases.
Zerozaki4869 wrote:Now if we use that trick of Agasa, out of 3+1 suspects one should be clear(i.e. no hidden Rum-likeness) the clear one would be Rum.
Now when Kuroda got cleared off just after he appeared. All Rum suspects(discounting Chikara) i.e. Rumi, Kanenori and Muga had appeared after Hoye got his clean chit.
Now there is a very funny thing about Gosho's answer that Rum is one among Kuroda, Wakita and Rumi.
Wakita and Rumi are fake names(which is almost clear to everyone) but Kuroda is a real name. So there is a chance that both this Kuroda and Rum had the same name, that's why Rum was able to take Kuroda's place.(I think Real Kuroda was to protect Amanda as Asaka).
Now Asaka was real Kuroda but Rum replaced real Kuroda before Asaka even went to Amanda.
Then he killed Amanda, Kohji realised that he was his acquaintance, "Hoye Kuroda the second." so Kohji also had to die.
Now I'm stuck at Kuroda's coma. If Kuroda was in a coma when all these things were happening, then this Kuroda is surely a fake and was brought in after he was seriously damaged. Then NPA switched him with real Kuroda because this guy was a very trustowrthy person of NPA(i.e. Asaka who wasn't Kuroda but got switched by Rum.)
If Kuroda's coma started after Kohji incident, then the one who got into coma was a fake altogether and was someone who already had neutralized real Kuroda( i.e. Asaka in that case.)

Now if we assume that real Kuroda/Asaka was aptxed by Rum and somehow survived what would be real Kuroda?
This real Kuroda is good at protecting, had strong features and was in such a precarious condition that he couldn't come out to unmask the faker( as nobody would believe him.) In that case asaka/real Kuroda would be Iori Muga who had been given the same APTX like thing which halted Vermouth's ageing.
By telling us that Hyōe looked like "someone else" when his facial bandages were removed (914/810) Gosho is setting us up for a twist. He wants us to assume that a switch happened during the coma... all so that he can turn things around and reveal that: a) there was never a switch at all, at any point, or, b) there was a switch before the coma.

The only way Hyōe Kuroda could be a fake name was if he joined the police using it, then passed background checks without his deception being exposed, ultimately leading to him rising through the ranks with a fake name... this would mean that Gosho's SDB Black+ answer was him referring to more than just their names.

So you haven't been able to determine if there were two comas or just one? Personally, I think there was only one—thus, it was the imposter who was put in a coma. I've seen no evidence that there was more than one coma, here—if there is such evidence, I'd like to see it.

So if Muga is actually the real Hyōe, he hasn't aged for the past 17 years? How has he been able to keep his condition hidden? Does he have any confidants that he can trust with this secret?

What is your response to the argument, "If Hyōe is Rum (or Rum's subordinate), then why is Rei/Bourbon still alive? Shouldn't Rum (or Rum's subordinate) have already acted to have this NPA mole within the BO killed?"
blackmoon wrote:Well, we saw from prior chapters in the manga that the "current" Kuroda was having flash-blacks recalling the crime scene of the bruised and dead Kohji Haneda. So he must either be the same Kuroda as the one who was the police at the time investigating the crime scene OR the curpit who commited the murder causing the crime scene OR someone else who was a witness of the crime scene. Now which one of the three? And why did Rumi dropped the four-leaf clover anyways? ;)
As of right now, I consider Hyōe the most likely to be Rum—therefore, right now, I'd say it's more likely that he's the culprit, rather than him being a witness or an investigator.

We have not yet reached the reveal of Rum's identity... but we have Rumi established as having violent, psychotic tendencies (or, at the very least, doesn't mind coming off or wants to come off as a violent psychotic to the culprits of 966–968/889–890 and the culprit of 987–989/909–910), Kanenori established as having strong similarities to Bourbon (approaches Kogorō to become his apprentice, and works right next to the Mōri Detective Agency), and Hyōe as a high-ranking NPA officer. This, I'd say, is simply made for Gosho to reveal that the suspicious Rumi and Kanenori are not Rum, and the seemingly exonerated Hyōe is.

Right now, when we think of Rumi, who is hiding her violent psychosis, recalling Kōji's body... and then, when we think of Hyōe, who is a high-ranking NPA officer, also recalling Kōji's body... the surface-level conclusion is that: "Oh, Rumi killed Kōji, wiped the blood off his mouth and Hyōe investigated the scene, afterwards!" This is also made for a twist reveal—that Hyōe saw Kōji's body first, and then Rumi saw it, later... after Hyōe caused the internal injury which led to Kōji bleeding from his mouth.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

I was just covering all the bases, but yes as you have mentioned
a) Either the switch was before Coma.(hence the hair has no significance)
b) There had been no switch.

"If Hyōe is Rum (or Rum's subordinate), then why is Rei/Bourbon still alive?"
As a frequent user of that quote(all over the first 5 months of this year) I know how the reasoning works. But the said reasoning has a little chink(or pretty big if you are a rigorous theorist) the leak about Bourbon can only come from two people
a) Kazami
b)Kuroda
Now Kazami is out of question so higher-ups in NPA would think
"Rei was just doing fine, rising in the ranks, giving us data, while nobody was getting a whiff, but all of a sudden this Kuroda comes interacts with Rei, gets to know his BO codename and Rei is outed, damn you Kuroda."
Given this sort of a shady past I do think unless NPA was sure that Kuroda is trustworthy they won't have allowed him to touch Bourbon, given the loss of Hiromitsu. So all in all, Kuroda(if Rum/loyal BO) has no advantage to kill Bourbon just now, but could potentially blackmail Bourbon into doing some of his dirty work before finishing him off. Also if Hoye is Rum, he needs to have a story for Bourbon's cover blow up else people in BO will connect Rum as a spy in NPA and the one having some contact with Bourbon, thus zero in on Kuroda, so if there are other spies in BO it will spook them and possibly for insightful spies Kuroda might get revealed.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

For the Muga issue I think Ooka family can come in handy in spressing secrets and in this way Muga/Asaka can keep watch over Haneda household from a safe distance.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:"If Hyōe is Rum (or Rum's subordinate), then why is Rei/Bourbon still alive?"
As a frequent user of that quote(all over the first 5 months of this year) I know how the reasoning works. But the said reasoning has a little chink(or pretty big if you are a rigorous theorist) the leak about Bourbon can only come from two people
a) Kazami
b)Kuroda
Now Kazami is out of question so higher-ups in NPA would think
"Rei was just doing fine, rising in the ranks, giving us data, while nobody was getting a whiff, but all of a sudden this Kuroda comes interacts with Rei, gets to know his BO codename and Rei is outed, damn you Kuroda."
Given this sort of a shady past I do think unless NPA was sure that Kuroda is trustworthy they won't have allowed him to touch Bourbon, given the loss of Hiromitsu. So all in all, Kuroda(if Rum/loyal BO) has no advantage to kill Bourbon just now, but could potentially blackmail Bourbon into doing some of his dirty work before finishing him off. Also if Hoye is Rum, he needs to have a story for Bourbon's cover blow up else people in BO will connect Rum as a spy in NPA and the one having some contact with Bourbon, thus zero in on Kuroda, so if there are other spies in BO it will spook them and possibly for insightful spies Kuroda might get revealed.
And Shinichi/Conan? Does Hyōe consider him a threat? I assume, through Kogorō, he's connected Shinichi/Conan to the events of Black Impact (499–504/425), for one.
Zerozaki4869 wrote:For the Muga issue I think Ooka family can come in handy in spressing secrets and in this way Muga/Asaka can keep watch over Haneda household from a safe distance.
So he's been with the Ōka family for the past 17 years? Does Momiji know about this, or has she been kept in the dark?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

"And Shinichi/Conan? Does Hyōe consider him a threat? I assume, through Kogorō, he's connected Shinichi/Conan to the events of Black Impact (499–504/425), for one."

I do think that he values Shinichi and Conan differently.
a) Shinichi a sure shot threat who can cause havoc if alive.
b) Conan, a potential threat if he catches on BO's trail.

"So he's been with the Ōka family for the past 17 years? Does Momiji know about this, or has she been kept in the dark?"
To be honst I consider that more than speculation/my desire to make Iori important. But if I were to answer you, then Ooka's dad/mom know about Iori but Momiji might not know. Like if Iori joins the household 5 years ago as a fullfledged young man, then he can attribute his lack of ageing by using diversion tactics like workout, efficient diet, ginseng etc.
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