Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Spimer » September 9th, 2019, 6:52 am

Oh, those? A troll wrote them

Spoiler:
They said that Iori Muga was the 5th brother of that group of brothers in the most recent case, that he was the treasure left behind by the millionaire their mother worked for... And turns out it was all made up.

The actual thing is that the mother of the 4 brothers worked in the Haneda family as a housemaid. So Conan earned the info that Haneda Kouji was the son of a rich family.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » September 9th, 2019, 2:15 pm

Tantei San wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:
Spoiler:
it was fake spoilers. New ones came out, and they are vastly different and reveal that Haneda family are the ones that requested the Ooka's help.


Spoiler:
Wait what?
What fake spoilers...


Spoiler:
It doesn't usually happen, but there are times when some people will intentionally create spoilers that do not reflect the contents of the file in question—in other words, when we were waiting for the 1,042 spoilers, someone made up fake ones and put them out there. The file, itself, hadn't come out, at this point, so we couldn't be sure if they were real or not—not until the file, itself, came out. These fake spoilers not only falsely claimed that Muga was the brother of the suspects of the case, but even made up fake details about the resolution of the case (such as, the killer was exposed through Shinichi/Conan making him take an eye exam—no such thing took place in 1,042).
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » September 11th, 2019, 5:57 am

Oooka & Haneda household connection

Recent development from File 1042 makes Iori Muga even more suspicious, since we now found out that the Haneda household is a wealthy associate of the Oooka household.
Spoiler:
Image
His position as a Butler for the Oooka, who seems to be trusted and relied on by the Haneda, makes for a perfect information source (without getting too close to the target) about what they know about the Kohji case and what they are up to, to cover for his 17-year-old mistake (File 953), especially if RUM suspects (naturally) that the Haneda family are behind the repeated Kohji case information upload online (File 948) which the BO keeps taking down.
Spoiler:
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 22nd, 2019, 5:07 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Did some stuff in the meantime.
Iori=Rum criticisms


Why, specifically, do you think this outcome would be bad from a writing perspective?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Literary framing of Rum arc


Yeah, I'm into this arc, as well—even with all the details, I can't be absolutely sure of who Rum is... and as for those who turn out not to be Rum... I'm eager to know their true identities, as well.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Rum's profile


Would I be correct in assuming you've ruled out Chikara Katsumata as a Rum suspect?

Though there is the theory that Rum didn't kill Koji, but Chikara did—I believe you did mention that theory once... still in favor of it, or not?

So is Rumi's uma piece a mere memento, or does it have additional value?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Some new analysis


So the white-haired Hyōe isn't Rum, but the black-haired Hyōe is? Do I have that right? If so, have we seen the black-haired Hyōe yet? Or is that something Gosho has yet to show?

So, iyo...
Black-haired Hyōe = Rum (and also Asaka)...
Kanenori = Tsutomu
Rumi = Miyano family member (i.e., Atsushi's sister)
White-haired Hyōe = Kōji Haneda
Do I have these right?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 22nd, 2019, 10:38 am

"Why, specifically, do you think this outcome would be bad from a writing perspective?"
After we got the magnitude of power and influence wielded by Ooka Family, I can't see a way of anyone sneaking through with fake references and fake identities. Plus Iori is yet to do anything remotely suspicious, plus the straws that people use to justify that theory already had been destroyed. I don't see anything funny there, but Iori=Asaka is still a good game.

Yes, given his prolonged absence and 0 influence on plot I've given up on that theory, plus now I also have doubts over the true dying message/i.e. the shogi piece. Chances are Rumi's piece is a memento/good luck charm given by Kohji to Rumi.

Those are just some possibilities that I was pondering over. I do think white haired Hoye is probably Rum if not Rum's right hand. If he is Rum then it is likely that he also was Asaka and was identified by Kohji in Juke hotel, so Kohji had to die.

I think Rumi is more likely to be some sort of a relation of Kohji, plus she could be one from Miyano family, but my I don't favour Rumi=BO argument anymore. I think Haibara's radar is more in line with Hoye being the source. Plus that APTX list could be a mere pdf file/image file obtained by Rumi. I currently favour Rumi being an NPA agent hence knowing the idea of "Mouri's bag of wisdom." Which further supports Rumi's cognizance of "The 10 year old case in Teitan warehouse" and consistently testing of Conan.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 25th, 2019, 5:44 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:"Why, specifically, do you think this outcome would be bad from a writing perspective?"
After we got the magnitude of power and influence wielded by Ooka Family, I can't see a way of anyone sneaking through with fake references and fake identities. Plus Iori is yet to do anything remotely suspicious, plus the straws that people use to justify that theory already had been destroyed. I don't see anything funny there, but Iori=Asaka is still a good game.


How do you factor in Rum's supposed impatience? Is it just a ruse by Rum? A mere disinformation campaign on his part, like the conflicting descriptions? If Hyōe is Rum, then he's been sitting on the info that Shūichi is alive and that Bourbon and Kir are NOCs (he may not realize who she's working for, but since she helped fake Shūichi's death, he'll know she's a traitor), all the while setting a trap for Team Shinichi/Conan and the NOCs as they plot against him and the BO (File 1,012).

Is it more likely Asaka was Amanda and Kōji's killer, or someone who witnessed the murders? How does Rum = Asaka (or Hyōe = Asaka, if Hyōe is a subordinate of Rum) compare to Muga = Asaka?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Now I also have doubts over the true dying message/i.e. the shogi piece. Chances are Rumi's piece is a memento/good luck charm given by Kohji to Rumi.


Because of his open palm in her flashback in 1,033, right? It implies that the shogi piece Rumi has wasn't the one he clutched in his hand. So is Rumi's uma piece completely unrelated to the dying message? Which shogi piece should we be focusing on, then?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Those are just some possibilities that I was pondering over. I do think white haired Hoye is probably Rum if not Rum's right hand. If he is Rum then it is likely that he also was Asaka and was identified by Kohji in Juke hotel, so Kohji had to die.


And who was black-haired Hyōe?

Would Rum have only one subordinate, or more?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:I think Rumi is more likely to be some sort of a relation of Kohji, plus she could be one from Miyano family, but my I don't favour Rumi=BO argument anymore. I think Haibara's radar is more in line with Hoye being the source. Plus that APTX list could be a mere pdf file/image file obtained by Rumi. I currently favour Rumi being an NPA agent hence knowing the idea of "Mouri's bag of wisdom." Which further supports Rumi's cognizance of "The 10 year old case in Teitan warehouse" and consistently testing of Conan.


How'd she get her hands on that list? Who slipped it to her?

Then wouldn't she be a rogue one? Hyōe is Rei's boss, after all. He'd do something to discredit and isolate her (if not try to have her kicked out), since he thinks she may be a threat to him, right? Does Rei know about her?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Ran-dezvous » October 26th, 2019, 2:07 am

Would you mind copy-pasting your thoughts here? I've been unable to access reddit these past few weeks, for some reason. I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 30th, 2019, 1:15 am

"How do you factor in Rum's supposed impatience? Is it just a ruse by Rum? A mere disinformation campaign on his part, like the conflicting descriptions? If Hyōe is Rum, then he's been sitting on the info that Shūichi is alive and that Bourbon and Kir are NOCs (he may not realize who she's working for, but since she helped fake Shūichi's death, he'll know she's a traitor), all the while setting a trap for Team Shinichi/Conan and the NOCs as they plot against him and the BO (File 1,012)."

It is Bourbon's perception. It stemmed from the fact due to Rum's consistent prodding for info on Kudo Shinichi. We don't know about Rum's circumstances, maybe Rum wants to test Bourbon's loyalty so needs the info asap for further preparations? (Every employee thinks that their manager is impatient.)

"Is it more likely Asaka was Amanda and Kōji's killer, or someone who witnessed the murders? How does Rum = Asaka (or Hyōe = Asaka, if Hyōe is a subordinate of Rum) compare to Muga = Asaka?"
The supposed cleanliness of Amanda's room insinuates that Asaka was either an accomplice/killer or was lured away from the scene. So either Asaka was Rum/Rum's subordinate or a bonafide person who was tricked by Rum into leaving his post empty. So Hoye=Rum/Rum's subordinate=Asaka)i.e. evil Asaka is one route the other being Muga=Asaka i.e.good Asaka.

"Because of his open palm in her flashback in 1,033, right? It implies that the shogi piece Rumi has wasn't the one he clutched in his hand. So is Rumi's uma piece completely unrelated to the dying message? Which shogi piece should we be focusing on, then?"
Maybe wait a bit for more Kohji case info. If one wants to make a jump, only Hoye's name is a real name and was existing for past 17 years. So if one wants a jump then it's a pawn piece.(Which has Hoye's name's Kanji on it)

And who was black-haired Hyōe?

Would Rum have only one subordinate, or more?
I personally think balck haired Hoye=White haired Hoye. The swap was a misdirection so that one can erroneously put Tsutomu in that blank spot if they go by Rumi=Female yaiba and Wakita=Boss' assistant hints.

"How'd she get her hands on that list? Who slipped it to her?"
Bourbon, working with Rumi to take down the spy who outed Scotch(i.e. Kuroda).
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 30th, 2019, 5:39 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:The supposed cleanliness of Amanda's room insinuates that Asaka was either an accomplice/killer or was lured away from the scene. So either Asaka was Rum/Rum's subordinate or a bonafide person who was tricked by Rum into leaving his post empty. So Hoye=Rum/Rum's subordinate=Asaka)i.e. evil Asaka is one route the other being Muga=Asaka i.e.good Asaka.


There actually aren't many panels showing Muga's right hand clear enough for us to see the index finger/ring finger difference... have you been able to determine whether his ring finger is longer than his index finger—like Asaka—or not?

Come to think of it, there aren't many good views of Hyōe's right index and right ring finger, either, are there? Any way to tell, in that respect?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Maybe wait a bit for more Kohji case info. If one wants to make a jump, only Hoye's name is a real name and was existing for past 17 years. So if one wants a jump then it's a pawn piece.(Which has Hoye's name's Kanji on it)


Kuroda Hyōe = 黒田
Hyō =
Pawn = 歩 (Fuhyō)

So did Kōji intend his message to name Hyōe, himself, or did he intend to spell out something else?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:I personally think balck haired Hoye=White haired Hoye. The swap was a misdirection so that one can erroneously put Tsutomu in that blank spot if they go by Rumi=Female yaiba and Wakita=Boss' assistant hints.


What was Hyōe's reaction to seeing Shiho/Ai (File 920 & File 987–File 989)? What does he think of her resemblance to a young Sherry?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Bourbon, working with Rumi to take down the spy who outed Scotch(i.e. Kuroda).


So when did Hyōe awaken from his coma?

Why is Rumi testing Shinichi/Conan? Shouldn't she have heard from Rei that he's trustworthy? Just how free-range is Rumi? If Rumi is NPA, shouldn't Hyōe have taken more action against her than merely stalk her, given his own position of authority?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 31st, 2019, 1:53 am

"There actually aren't many panels showing Muga's right hand clear enough for us to see the index finger/ring finger difference... have you been able to determine whether his ring finger is longer than his index finger—like Asaka—or not?

Come to think of it, there aren't many good views of Hyōe's right index and right ring finger, either, are there? Any way to tell, in that respect?"

Didn't want to use it for out-manga inference, but you're right. That's why I'm suspicious of them, Kuroda even keeps his fist balled, whenever he takes his hand out of his pockets.

"So did Kōji intend his message to name Hyōe, himself, or did he intend to spell out something else?"
Not sure, but if a pawn piece is missing from Kohji's belongings we will know who is it for sure.

"What was Hyōe's reaction to seeing Shiho/Ai (File 920 & File 987–File 989)? What does he think of her resemblance to a young Sherry?"
Blame Bourbon and Sherry's failing radar for it.
Bourbon must have reported both BO and NPA that Sherry was ripped apart in that blast. So Kuroda if he is BO has verified doubly that Sherry is dead, plus despite the resemblance, the idea of shrinking and double evidence to believe Bourbon would surely let Sherry off the hook. Though for once I think Kuroda thought that Rumi might be from BO trying to prod Shinichi/Conan(i.e. his enemy/Tsutomu/the pesky detective who thinks that he is stronger than Hoye)

"So when did Hyōe awaken from his coma?"
Hoye looks too strong and healthy to be out of Coma just now. I would expect he got out of Coma around the time when Shuichi was still infiltrating the BO/inside BO. Or He came out of coma before Sherry got those Rum descriptions.

"Why is Rumi testing Shinichi/Conan? Shouldn't she have heard from Rei that he's trustworthy? Just how free-range is Rumi? If Rumi is NPA, shouldn't Hyōe have taken more action against her than merely stalk her, given his own position of authority?"
Well for starters smart people don't take everything at face value, she could even think that Rei is colluding with someone else/Rum(given her detective skills she must have figured out that Rei works for Karasuma group for infiltration purposes after the Scarlet attack.) so she tests Conan.
I think Hoye doesn't recognize Rumi from one of the force, it's not easy to check every single NPA officer also "U MASCARA" thing won't be an NPA officer's doing, more like a Kohji case player's doing.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 31st, 2019, 5:46 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:"There actually aren't many panels showing Muga's right hand clear enough for us to see the index finger/ring finger difference... have you been able to determine whether his ring finger is longer than his index finger—like Asaka—or not?

Come to think of it, there aren't many good views of Hyōe's right index and right ring finger, either, are there? Any way to tell, in that respect?"

Didn't want to use it for out-manga inference, but you're right. That's why I'm suspicious of them, Kuroda even keeps his fist balled, whenever he takes his hand out of his pockets.


And it also appears that (unlike Asaka) Kanenori's right ring finger is not longer than his right index finger—just like Rumi.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:"What was Hyōe's reaction to seeing Shiho/Ai (File 920 & File 987–File 989)? What does he think of her resemblance to a young Sherry?"
Blame Bourbon and Sherry's failing radar for it.
Bourbon must have reported both BO and NPA that Sherry was ripped apart in that blast. So Kuroda if he is BO has verified doubly that Sherry is dead, plus despite the resemblance, the idea of shrinking and double evidence to believe Bourbon would surely let Sherry off the hook.

"So when did Hyōe awaken from his coma?"
Hoye looks too strong and healthy to be out of Coma just now. I would expect he got out of Coma around the time when Shuichi was still infiltrating the BO/inside BO. Or He came out of coma before Sherry got those Rum descriptions.


It's true that it was never specified when Hyōe got out of his coma—and if he was back in the arena during Shūichi's infiltration, well... we can clearly note that how Hiromitsu/Scotch was exposed has not been brought up or addressed by Gosho... perhaps because it would implicate Hyōe, who would have the authority and insider knowledge to leak crucial info about Hiromitsu/Scotch to the BO.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Though for once I think Kuroda thought that Rumi might be from BO trying to prod Shinichi/Conan(i.e. his enemy/Tsutomu/the pesky detective who thinks that he is stronger than Hoye)

"Why is Rumi testing Shinichi/Conan? Shouldn't she have heard from Rei that he's trustworthy? Just how free-range is Rumi? If Rumi is NPA, shouldn't Hyōe have taken more action against her than merely stalk her, given his own position of authority?"
Well for starters smart people don't take everything at face value, she could even think that Rei is colluding with someone else/Rum(given her detective skills she must have figured out that Rei works for Karasuma group for infiltration purposes after the Scarlet attack.) so she tests Conan.
I think Hoye doesn't recognize Rumi from one of the force, it's not easy to check every single NPA officer also "U MASCARA" thing won't be an NPA officer's doing, more like a Kohji case player's doing.


So Hyōe is concerned about Rumi enough to stalk her, but not to go further than that? He's connected her to the Amanda/Kōji murders—a huge point of exposure for the BO—if he wasn't prepared to go farther than stalking her in 987–989, when will he cross that line? What would she have to do to get him to start using his position to try and eliminate her as a potential problem?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » November 2nd, 2019, 7:03 am

Ah..... well.... with all the breaks in between... time really is like money... ^-^
And speaking out of the blues, if Bourbon's target was Sherry, then RUM's target should clearly be Shinichi, right? ;)
With the new release coming in November, i hope this sure brings more progress to the main plot....

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » November 2nd, 2019, 11:09 am

I don't think Rum's target is Shinichi, it looks more like Rum's target is the spy infestation.

"So Hyōe is concerned about Rumi enough to stalk her, but not to go further than that?"
Yup, to be honest the repercussions of that encounter is already started to take shape. Possibly Kuroda is manipulating Bourbon/NPA to get more info about Rumi.
"He's connected her to the Amanda/Kōji murders—a huge point of exposure for the BO—if he wasn't prepared to go farther than stalking her in 987–989, when will he cross that line?"
He doesn't know whether Rumi is an idiot or Rumi is a trap, so he is treading with caution. Also I think Hoye is yet to place Rumi in the picture unlike Kanenori.
"hat would she have to do to get him to start using his position to try and eliminate her as a potential problem?"
To come at him at full throttle.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » November 3rd, 2019, 3:20 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:I don't think Rum's target is Shinichi, it looks more like Rum's target is the spy infestation.
Except... it is quite clearly shown that Rum is interested and gathering intel on Kudo Shinichi (File 1008), while it's in fact Gin who is revealed to be concerned and planning to take action towards the spy infestation (File 898).
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''
Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

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