Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)
Posted: December 24th, 2018, 2:59 am
I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him
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Does it remind you of another character who often does the same?mtcc wrote:I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him
I think it's "ill advised" to approach these things as "well it didn't happen yet, but it could happen," as a compelling argument, because that's exactly what leads to the idea of "theory being just as likely as others so long as it hasn't 100% been eliminated". I don't agree about your proposed status of the Asaka mystery because we have three main suspects going around. Surely at least one of them has to be Asaka, right? Or if you think none of them is, then maybe some other adult character with the appropriate age. Dismissing pretty much every existing active player in this arc for the sake of a minor character who not only has to be shrunken, but also has to have been shrunken for the past 17 years, this can't rely upon "maybe it will be foreshadowed later", it needs some extraordinary evidence to be included in the premise, and I don't think it exists, which is why I don't understand why this theory is a thing.Kuro No Shinigami wrote: Maria has just 3 appearances so far, it's true that her maturity is not yet foreshadowed or shown but it's still not too late considering the ASAKA territory is completely out in speculation area even in DC universe.
So if Okiya's words shouldn't be taken as some sort of hint, why should Sonoko's by-the-by remark about Ran being like her bodyguard, or Akemi getting the mirror from a mother be applied as "foreshadowing"? MTX's theory is filled with these oddities, which is why I pointed out what Okiya also said. "Thing could be foreshadowing because I said so" is basically the gist of all the proof provided by MTX, and while foreshadowing has been a thing in all of Gosho's mysteries, they've always been accompanied with some other proof. And dare I say, Gosho's foreshadowing is more direct than what MTX is referring to as "foreshadowing".For Okiya at that point of time in 954 , he used to be in same train as ASACA and RUM being two different names. One of the most obvious conclusion was ASACA=RUM who became a bodyguard of Amanda and killed her off. So it's not stretched to be asking about Asaka and indirectly comparing her to RUM or assuming she is RUM. Okiya asking about someone suspicious around Sera could mean he meant either Mary or Someone else hence it couldn't be Mary imo but someone near Sera who was suspicious.
I disagree with this conclusion. During the Asaka convo at Agasa's house, the APTX list was mentioned as well as the fact Kouji was killed by the APTX, and since Akai (presumably) was listening on them, he should know about it.Again , Subaru doesn't know about APTX list names. Haneda being killed off by APTX is one of the true core of
mystery for him overall.
for sure... a masked avenger hero back in file 977 where the second in command is actually mentionedDCUniverseAficionado wrote:Does it remind you of another character who often does the same?mtcc wrote:I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him
I should rephrase and say "thinking she was a child who couldn't grow (rather than someone who was an adult before)", if that was so easily misunderstood.Kor wrote:How do you live for 17 years as a normal child who's stuck as a 7 years old? That's the opposite of normal. Amnesia or not, shouldn't she have grown mentally by now?
It's not ignored at all, it's in fact proposed that the Ran comparison is foreshadowing a subvertion of everyone's imagination of "the bodyguard Asaka"(who Subaru and Conan suspected was Rum, hence why Subaru described Asaka that way), basically a hint within the joke.Kor wrote:And yet you ignore what was said just a panel earlier by Okiya.
How do you connect this notion to Maria?
In fact, Subaru's comment could be more attributed as a hint to Rum, since that was the basis of those descriptions.the comparison to Ran would make sense too, since she has a sweet personality like her that is very subverted from everyone's expectations of "the bodyguard Asaka"/"a weird person"(as Ran put it), despite her similar qualities.
Not re-purposing anything. Those case ideas are simply seeded in concepts that Gosho is showing he could use. Why is "dying hair black" something that can't be used more than once within the story?Kor wrote:Aren't you just recycling and repurposing old ideas you claimed to be hints from your butler theory?
Of course, I'm not that oblivious. I'm aware that this lacks in-universe 100% evidence.Kor wrote:Don't you see that every step of the way in this theory is actually actually a major leap you don't have anything to base it on other than "ifs"?
Oh no, the opposite actually. We have an ambiguous text, and I took the exact information into consideration the whole way through while proposing this theory. Asaka being an official bodyguard is not a confirmed fact. It's an interpretation based on how she followed this influential person, Amanda, around, and no one was able to corroborate such bodyguard hiring. Since she is not a confirmed official bodyguard (with a limit in age), her being 17 years old like Ran is not contradicting established facts either.Kor wrote:You're actively refusing to acknowledge what's stated in the text and throwing it away in favor of your theory. Why's Asaka suddenly no longer a bodyguard? Why's Asaka suddenly 17? Why ignore the text?
Kor wrote:Why does Gosho need to introduce YET ANOTHER shrunken subject when we're not even done yet dealing with the third one?
If Maria shrank as Asaka 17 years again, then the true purpose it would have would mainly be to answer the question regarding Conan's and Haibara's aging state, and that answer would be that they can't age like Vermouth, since Maria is still a 7-year-old, because, as mentioned above, the drug they were affected by is a recreated version of the one Asaka would have been drugged by (and is very likely to have the same effects).
She showed interest in the neighbor living in the Kudo mansion, and using Shinichi's recent public appearance as a conversation starter would hide your intentions more. Rumi is pretty much portrayed to be using the same information Bourbon gave to Vermouth.Kor wrote:And just for a minor sidetrack, while yes, Vermouth did wonder about Okiya, Rumi asked Haibara about meeting Shinichi, and why would Rumi ask her that if she's Vermouth? She already knows Haibara met Shinichi.
If you are not interested in speculations that look deeper into various details and entertain potential foreshadowings before any facts get established that supports such trajectories, then that's fine. Just not your cup of tea, meaning you have wasted your time here. If you got something out of it (whether it's new angles or just a way to kill uneeded time), then maybe this wasn't as much of a time waste after all.Kor wrote:Dismissing pretty much every existing active player in this arc for the sake of a minor character who not only has to be shrunken, but also has to have been shrunken for the past 17 years, this can't rely upon "maybe it will be foreshadowed later", it needs some extraordinary evidence to be included in the premise, and I don't think it exists, which is why I don't understand why this theory is a thing.
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:Does it remind you of another character who often does the same?mtcc wrote:I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him
There is indeed another character who often does the same... It's Ai! Obviously she appears a lot, so it's not like she can be seen doing that in every single panel, but she still crosses her arms on a very regular basis. I quickly skimmed through many of her Rum arc appearances to make sure it's not only my imagination and was amazed to see just how often she crosses her arms.DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
It was, but some people chose to derive a different interpretation out of it.jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Was it not obvious that it was Yaiba's enemy's boss' (the boss of the bad guys) associate ?
high fiveMeiTanteixX wrote:in other words, Kuroda is not that "boss".
I had the same thought, or at least I asked myself: if I were to ascribe significance to this posture, what would it be?mtcc wrote:katsumata but the panels only four panels and one keyhole this not enough to consider as a habit like Wakita
Nice catch.Valentin wrote:I had the same thought, or at least I asked myself: if I were to ascribe significance to this posture, what would it be?mtcc wrote:katsumata but the panels only four panels and one keyhole this not enough to consider as a habit like Wakita
Both Kanenori Wakita and Chikara Katsumata cross their arms in the same manner—right-over-left—and indicate right-handedness, for example during their debuts by moving a shougi piece or serving dishes with the right hand. In contrast, Conan in File 500 and Haibara in File 239—both right-handed—cross their arms left-over-right; just three panels before left-over-right-crossing Conan in File 500, though, Haibara also crosses her arms right-over-left despite essentially being in the same situation as in File 239, namely reluctantly chasing down some newly introduced member of the organization. So does the manner of crossing arms bear any meaning in this series? Not usually, it seems.
Then again, one could argue that a lot of time had passed between File 239 and File 500, and while there was no need to differentiate left-over-right and right-over-left arm-crossers at that time, there might be now. Given that Shuukichi consistently crosses his arms right-over-left as well, model-loving Aoyama indeed might have found his model of a shougi player: crossing their arms right-over-left out of habit, even when not playing.
Habit is where another kind of posture comes in. After bowing with Shuukichi in File 947, Chikara Katsumata is immediately looking downward, while Shuukichi is looking up, and looks rather hunched when Shuukichi is talking to him. Sure, he obviously concentrates on the match, but …
… even when the match isn’t in progress, his posture isn’t exactly upright. Likewise, Kanenori Wakita’s posture doesn’t appear to be upright in any of his panels, although the one above might overaccentuate that somewhat for clarity’s sake. Be it genetically determined or out of habit—the two’s postures are overall quite … identical.
Agreed.Valentin wrote:Do I claim that Rum is Kanenori Wakita is Chikara Katsumata in disguise? Um … I don’t know, not that I’m aware of. For what it’s worth, however, I’m among those who wouldn’t necessarily dislike a resolution where Chikara Katsumata is involved in the main plot, and with Aoyama having confirmed that Rum is either Hyoue Kuroda, Rumi Wakasa or Kanenori Wakita, thus making the latter the most likely candidate, Rum being Kanenori Wakita being Chikara Katsumata would probably represent the best way not to hurt my sensitive feelings.
I don't think Maria is Anokata, but Anokata being shrunk isn't that crazy of an idea to me, either.Valentin wrote:On a different note: since we’re already talking about Maria Higashio, be sure to enjoy thriceplus’s and my beyond-genius theory why she is most definitely Renya Karasuma having gone underground as a seven-year-old girl. By the way, back then I failed to mention that Vermouth is the “boss’s favorite” because she acts as the boss’s parents—both mother and father—, allowing a supposedly dead old fart to live that wicked life of a seven-year-old girl. But honestly, I’m still holding the view that this hypothesis is much less ridiculous than it should be, especially considering how random this character’s return may be at first glance and how frighteningly much sense its timing would make. With due respect, I would rather support this crackpot idea than MeiTanteixX’s suggestions concerning her.