Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
mtcc
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby mtcc » December 24th, 2018, 2:59 am

I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » December 24th, 2018, 3:11 am

mtcc wrote:I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him


Does it remind you of another character who often does the same?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
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— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » December 24th, 2018, 3:30 am

Kuro No Shinigami wrote:Maria has just 3 appearances so far, it's true that her maturity is not yet foreshadowed or shown but it's still not too late considering the ASAKA territory is completely out in speculation area even in DC universe.


I think it's "ill advised" to approach these things as "well it didn't happen yet, but it could happen," as a compelling argument, because that's exactly what leads to the idea of "theory being just as likely as others so long as it hasn't 100% been eliminated". I don't agree about your proposed status of the Asaka mystery because we have three main suspects going around. Surely at least one of them has to be Asaka, right? Or if you think none of them is, then maybe some other adult character with the appropriate age. Dismissing pretty much every existing active player in this arc for the sake of a minor character who not only has to be shrunken, but also has to have been shrunken for the past 17 years, this can't rely upon "maybe it will be foreshadowed later", it needs some extraordinary evidence to be included in the premise, and I don't think it exists, which is why I don't understand why this theory is a thing.

For Okiya at that point of time in 954 , he used to be in same train as ASACA and RUM being two different names. One of the most obvious conclusion was ASACA=RUM who became a bodyguard of Amanda and killed her off. So it's not stretched to be asking about Asaka and indirectly comparing her to RUM or assuming she is RUM. Okiya asking about someone suspicious around Sera could mean he meant either Mary or Someone else hence it couldn't be Mary imo but someone near Sera who was suspicious.


So if Okiya's words shouldn't be taken as some sort of hint, why should Sonoko's by-the-by remark about Ran being like her bodyguard, or Akemi getting the mirror from a mother be applied as "foreshadowing"? MTX's theory is filled with these oddities, which is why I pointed out what Okiya also said. "Thing could be foreshadowing because I said so" is basically the gist of all the proof provided by MTX, and while foreshadowing has been a thing in all of Gosho's mysteries, they've always been accompanied with some other proof. And dare I say, Gosho's foreshadowing is more direct than what MTX is referring to as "foreshadowing".
Moreover, MTX mentioned how Mary can be seen as a "model" for Asaka, even though when Conan suspected her, he was himself under the assumption that Rum and Asaka are the same person, which is not the context we're using here.

Since I'm already expanding on this, I'll just make a full list of all the proposed "foreshadowings" in that theory.

1) Haibara says how her sister got a hand mirror from her mother, so that somehow means Asaka also got her hand mirror from her mother... and also she's Kouji's sister apparently.
2) Kansuke is a model for Rum, so it's likely Mary is a model for Rum.
3) Gosho had Ogura say "Mari" in order to allude to Maria
4) Both have bright hair color and probably are part western [well, Mary is for sure].
5) Sonoko said jokingly how Ran is like her bodyguard so that somehow means Asaka was actually 17.
6) Some guy in some case dyed his hair so that somehow means Asaka also dyed her hair.
7) Some woman in some case changed her hair style so that somehow also means Asaka changed her hair style.

This is basically the building blocks of the theory. All alleged foreshadowings and nothing more. Can any of it be intentional? Well, yeah I guess so (though not necessarily to foreshadow Maria being Asaka). But it's kinda difficult to take seriously this constant notion of foreshadowings when in this very thread you can find a post in which MTX claimed that the dude dying his hair was actually hinting at the butler dying his hair cause he's secretly blonde. If these alleged foreshadowings can be repurposed so easily (and conveniently they always mean and hint at MTX's given theory), do they even mean what MTX thinks they mean? Do they even mean anything at all?

Again , Subaru doesn't know about APTX list names. Haneda being killed off by APTX is one of the true core of
mystery for him overall.


I disagree with this conclusion. During the Asaka convo at Agasa's house, the APTX list was mentioned as well as the fact Kouji was killed by the APTX, and since Akai (presumably) was listening on them, he should know about it.
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Kuro No Shinigami
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kuro No Shinigami » December 24th, 2018, 6:48 am

Well I kind of agree and disagree. It's true that this theory is ignoring all the other players , but if you just think about the so called coincidence of Maria being the centre of the case and in middle of an arc where one of the most important person was revealed and in middle of an arc which is related to BO , it sounds plausible( even if it's a little faint ). It is not proposed statement of status of ASAKA by me but that's what we know about Asaka so far. It's all in mystery unless I'm forgetting important details. By that assumption , then you must be assuming that Tsutomu/Rum/Asaka has to be accommodated in the current suspects scenario. The three official suspects are just RUM suspects as of now even for Conan and readers. Trying to accommodate everyone in suspect list just because there is no one else sounds forced which shouldn't be the case even if it's apparent since Gosho would definitely give hints for all the identities ( which we haven't got for Kuroda/Wakita as of now and not even Asaka except for basic things ) . Assuming that Asaka has to be from there is little too presumptive imo. Though in my personal opinion , Asaka is Rumi but for a theory of Rumi being Vermouth and seeing her interest in APTX list along with this theory of a shrunken kid who also happens to be a tranfer student is not too complicated at a glance.
The thing about extraordinary evidence to prove such thing doesn't exist as of now but the clues presented are scarily or coincidentally there to show the events which could happen. It's not like a random thought of connecting dots out of nowhere which doesn't make sense.
I never disregarded Okiya's word , but rather his intention for asking is for asaka=Rum and not just about Asaka if that makes sense since It wouldn't be any good if he asks about Rum which is a codename but a name which actually exists. So by that, I thought it makes much more sense for him to be actually asking about Rum , not Asaka.

1) We don't have more info on Asaka to pinpoint what her relationship with Kohji or Amanda is so it's not a bad assumption to begin with. Not saying it's the only thing but it shouldn't be a big problem since a lot of people consider Asaka ( Rumi for me ) to be related to Kohji or Elena.

2) Mary is model for Asaka just for this theory.
3) Doesn't it feel odd for Gosho to keep a Mary/Maria confusion case out of nowhere if he just wanted to introduce the name MARY ? Not saying it's the main evidence but it does feel odd imo

5) well , people speculated Akai to be Subaru the moment he was told to be the red guy in Subaru intro ..... So .... Idk. It's just a theory but it could mean Asaka was more like a girl who was young and capable for all we know.

6) that's only because the photo of ASAKA and her current appearance is different. It's not a far fetched assumption like other assumptions imo and shouldnt be a big problem.

7) again , same point as last one. The hair style is different which MAY be a foreshadowing for all we know for any other character ( Kuroda/Rumi ) , I don't see why it can't be used in this theory as well.

These may be intentional upto some extent. The connections are rather scary imo. It's not easy to make such connections which is why I'm saying it's a thing to consider. Using such "foreshadowing just because I say so" is not easy to connect like in this case and because of that it's a theory.

About foreshadowing meaning something or not .. who knows. Gosho has been direct in other arcs but in this arc it seems that current information about people is enough but on other hand not enough for us to go full on and pin point his/her position. Being in a place like this , it's not easy to connect all this and make up a reasonable analysis.

We don't know about Subaru knowing everthing about APTX yet and I don't think Subaru would have wiretapped the whole house since as you suggested it's not AT ALL implied/hinted. For Subaru, to whom this case is important which would decide his overall life he gave up to this day , why wasn't a single panel used for this purpose to show such thing then? Sounds odd , right ?
But it could be the case where only phones are wiretapped since Agasa was called by police to come at the scene ( Clenched scissors) and Subaru got to know about it and came to his house with excuse of curry. His timing was odd as well and which should be considered as you suggested but there are other ways of eavesdropping.
Also , even if he has tapped the whole house , there's no way he could be knowing about Rum's description as of now ( exclude The Yusaku meet though ). The talk about RUM's description happened out of the house afaik ( which is not related to the current discussion but just saying ).
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » December 24th, 2018, 6:50 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
mtcc wrote:I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him


Does it remind you of another character who often does the same?


for sure... a masked avenger hero back in file 977 where the second in command is actually mentioned ;D

https://file-image.mpcdn.net/19259/987020/7.jpg?1513819984
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"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » December 24th, 2018, 7:08 am

Kor wrote:How do you live for 17 years as a normal child who's stuck as a 7 years old? That's the opposite of normal. Amnesia or not, shouldn't she have grown mentally by now?
I should rephrase and say "thinking she was a child who couldn't grow (rather than someone who was an adult before)", if that was so easily misunderstood.
Kor wrote:And yet you ignore what was said just a panel earlier by Okiya.
How do you connect this notion to Maria?
It's not ignored at all, it's in fact proposed that the Ran comparison is foreshadowing a subvertion of everyone's imagination of "the bodyguard Asaka"(who Subaru and Conan suspected was Rum, hence why Subaru described Asaka that way), basically a hint within the joke.
the comparison to Ran would make sense too, since she has a sweet personality like her that is very subverted from everyone's expectations of "the bodyguard Asaka"/"a weird person"(as Ran put it), despite her similar qualities.
In fact, Subaru's comment could be more attributed as a hint to Rum, since that was the basis of those descriptions.
(in case you are wondering of the basis for "Subaru believing Asaka is Rum", it's SDB Black+ Black Trajectory)
Kor wrote:Aren't you just recycling and repurposing old ideas you claimed to be hints from your butler theory?
Not re-purposing anything. Those case ideas are simply seeded in concepts that Gosho is showing he could use. Why is "dying hair black" something that can't be used more than once within the story?
Kor wrote:Don't you see that every step of the way in this theory is actually actually a major leap you don't have anything to base it on other than "ifs"?
Of course, I'm not that oblivious. I'm aware that this lacks in-universe 100% evidence.
Kor wrote:You're actively refusing to acknowledge what's stated in the text and throwing it away in favor of your theory. Why's Asaka suddenly no longer a bodyguard? Why's Asaka suddenly 17? Why ignore the text?
Oh no, the opposite actually. We have an ambiguous text, and I took the exact information into consideration the whole way through while proposing this theory. Asaka being an official bodyguard is not a confirmed fact. It's an interpretation based on how she followed this influential person, Amanda, around, and no one was able to corroborate such bodyguard hiring. Since she is not a confirmed official bodyguard (with a limit in age), her being 17 years old like Ran is not contradicting established facts either.
Kor wrote:Why does Gosho need to introduce YET ANOTHER shrunken subject when we're not even done yet dealing with the third one?
If Maria shrank as Asaka 17 years again, then the true purpose it would have would mainly be to answer the question regarding Conan's and Haibara's aging state, and that answer would be that they can't age like Vermouth, since Maria is still a 7-year-old, because, as mentioned above, the drug they were affected by is a recreated version of the one Asaka would have been drugged by (and is very likely to have the same effects).
Kor wrote:And just for a minor sidetrack, while yes, Vermouth did wonder about Okiya, Rumi asked Haibara about meeting Shinichi, and why would Rumi ask her that if she's Vermouth? She already knows Haibara met Shinichi.
She showed interest in the neighbor living in the Kudo mansion, and using Shinichi's recent public appearance as a conversation starter would hide your intentions more. Rumi is pretty much portrayed to be using the same information Bourbon gave to Vermouth.
Spoiler:
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Kor wrote:Dismissing pretty much every existing active player in this arc for the sake of a minor character who not only has to be shrunken, but also has to have been shrunken for the past 17 years, this can't rely upon "maybe it will be foreshadowed later", it needs some extraordinary evidence to be included in the premise, and I don't think it exists, which is why I don't understand why this theory is a thing.
If you are not interested in speculations that look deeper into various details and entertain potential foreshadowings before any facts get established that supports such trajectories, then that's fine. Just not your cup of tea, meaning you have wasted your time here. If you got something out of it (whether it's new angles or just a way to kill uneeded time), then maybe this wasn't as much of a time waste after all.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''
Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

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mtcc
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby mtcc » December 24th, 2018, 7:44 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
mtcc wrote:I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him


Does it remind you of another character who often does the same?


katsumata but the panels only four panels and one keyhole this not enough to consider as a habit like Wakita
champagne
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby champagne » December 24th, 2018, 12:01 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
mtcc wrote:I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him

Does it remind you of another character who often does the same?

There is indeed another character who often does the same... It's Ai! Obviously she appears a lot, so it's not like she can be seen doing that in every single panel, but she still crosses her arms on a very regular basis. I quickly skimmed through many of her Rum arc appearances to make sure it's not only my imagination and was amazed to see just how often she crosses her arms.
So Sherry from the BO crosses her arms a lot, Wakita crosses his arms a lot - so maybe he's indeed BO too and crossing their arms is what real BO members do ;D :P
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » December 24th, 2018, 2:37 pm

So on the subject of foreshadowing (or red herrings if you're on that camp), there was one thing I think should be clarified.

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This translation is slightly off. It's specifically referring to the "enemy boss". The anime subs had it right.

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jimmy_kud0_tv2
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby jimmy_kud0_tv2 » December 24th, 2018, 3:26 pm

Was it not obvious that it was Yaiba's enemy's boss' (the boss of the bad guys) associate ?
I hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » December 24th, 2018, 3:39 pm

jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Was it not obvious that it was Yaiba's enemy's boss' (the boss of the bad guys) associate ?


It was, but some people chose to derive a different interpretation out of it.
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MeiTanteixX
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » December 24th, 2018, 3:57 pm

in other words, Kuroda is not that "boss".
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''
Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

DeviantArt:http://meitanteixx.deviantart.com/
Tumblr:http://masterdetectivexx.tumblr.com/
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Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » December 24th, 2018, 4:08 pm

MeiTanteixX wrote:in other words, Kuroda is not that "boss".


high five
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Valentin
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Valentin » December 24th, 2018, 4:59 pm

mtcc wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
mtcc wrote:I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him
Does it remind you of another character who often does the same?
katsumata but the panels only four panels and one keyhole this not enough to consider as a habit like Wakita
I had the same thought, or at least I asked myself: if I were to ascribe significance to this posture, what would it be?

Image

Both Kanenori Wakita and Chikara Katsumata cross their arms in the same manner—right-over-left—and indicate right-handedness, for example during their debuts by moving a shougi piece or serving dishes with the right hand. In contrast, Conan in File 500 and Haibara in File 239—both right-handed—cross their arms left-over-right; just three panels before left-over-right-crossing Conan in File 500, though, Haibara also crosses her arms right-over-left despite essentially being in the same situation as in File 239, namely reluctantly chasing down some newly introduced member of the organization. So does the manner of crossing arms bear any meaning in this series? Not usually, it seems.

Image

Then again, one could argue that a lot of time had passed between File 239 and File 500, and while there was no need to differentiate left-over-right and right-over-left arm-crossers at that time, there might be now. Given that Shuukichi consistently crosses his arms right-over-left as well, model-loving Aoyama indeed might have found his model of a shougi player: crossing their arms right-over-left out of habit, even when not playing.

Image

Habit is where another kind of posture comes in. After bowing with Shuukichi in File 947, Chikara Katsumata is immediately looking downward, while Shuukichi is looking up, and looks rather hunched when Shuukichi is talking to him. Sure, he obviously concentrates on the match, but …

Image

… even when the match isn’t in progress, his posture isn’t exactly upright. Likewise, Kanenori Wakita’s posture doesn’t appear to be upright in any of his panels, although the one above might overaccentuate that somewhat for clarity’s sake. Be it genetically determined or out of habit—the two’s postures are overall quite … identical.

Do I claim that Rum is Kanenori Wakita is Chikara Katsumata in disguise? Um … I don’t know, not that I’m aware of. For what it’s worth, however, I’m among those who wouldn’t necessarily dislike a resolution where Chikara Katsumata is involved in the main plot, and with Aoyama having confirmed that Rum is either Hyoue Kuroda, Rumi Wakasa or Kanenori Wakita, thus making the latter the most likely candidate, Rum being Kanenori Wakita being Chikara Katsumata would probably represent the best way not to hurt my sensitive feelings.

On a different note: since we’re already talking about Maria Higashio, be sure to enjoy thriceplus’s and my beyond-genius theory why she is most definitely Renya Karasuma having gone underground as a seven-year-old girl. By the way, back then I failed to mention that Vermouth is the “boss’s favorite” because she acts as the boss’s parents—both mother and father—, allowing a supposedly dead old fart to live that wicked life of a seven-year-old girl. But honestly, I’m still holding the view that this hypothesis is much less ridiculous than it should be, especially considering how random this character’s return may be at first glance and how frighteningly much sense its timing would make. With due respect, I would rather support this crackpot idea than MeiTanteixX’s suggestions concerning her.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » December 24th, 2018, 5:27 pm

Valentin wrote:
mtcc wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
mtcc wrote:I want to point out something a lot of o panels in Wakita first case he appeared with crossed arms maybe this is a habit for him
Does it remind you of another character who often does the same?
katsumata but the panels only four panels and one keyhole this not enough to consider as a habit like Wakita
I had the same thought, or at least I asked myself: if I were to ascribe significance to this posture, what would it be?

Image

Both Kanenori Wakita and Chikara Katsumata cross their arms in the same manner—right-over-left—and indicate right-handedness, for example during their debuts by moving a shougi piece or serving dishes with the right hand. In contrast, Conan in File 500 and Haibara in File 239—both right-handed—cross their arms left-over-right; just three panels before left-over-right-crossing Conan in File 500, though, Haibara also crosses her arms right-over-left despite essentially being in the same situation as in File 239, namely reluctantly chasing down some newly introduced member of the organization. So does the manner of crossing arms bear any meaning in this series? Not usually, it seems.

Image

Then again, one could argue that a lot of time had passed between File 239 and File 500, and while there was no need to differentiate left-over-right and right-over-left arm-crossers at that time, there might be now. Given that Shuukichi consistently crosses his arms right-over-left as well, model-loving Aoyama indeed might have found his model of a shougi player: crossing their arms right-over-left out of habit, even when not playing.

Image

Habit is where another kind of posture comes in. After bowing with Shuukichi in File 947, Chikara Katsumata is immediately looking downward, while Shuukichi is looking up, and looks rather hunched when Shuukichi is talking to him. Sure, he obviously concentrates on the match, but …

Image

… even when the match isn’t in progress, his posture isn’t exactly upright. Likewise, Kanenori Wakita’s posture doesn’t appear to be upright in any of his panels, although the one above might overaccentuate that somewhat for clarity’s sake. Be it genetically determined or out of habit—the two’s postures are overall quite … identical.


Nice catch.

Valentin wrote:Do I claim that Rum is Kanenori Wakita is Chikara Katsumata in disguise? Um … I don’t know, not that I’m aware of. For what it’s worth, however, I’m among those who wouldn’t necessarily dislike a resolution where Chikara Katsumata is involved in the main plot, and with Aoyama having confirmed that Rum is either Hyoue Kuroda, Rumi Wakasa or Kanenori Wakita, thus making the latter the most likely candidate, Rum being Kanenori Wakita being Chikara Katsumata would probably represent the best way not to hurt my sensitive feelings.


Agreed.

Chikara hasn't appeared since 947, and Kanenori was introduced in 975. This scenario, if true, would allow Gosho's answer to question 92 of SBD Black+ to coexist with Chikara = Rum theory.

Valentin wrote:On a different note: since we’re already talking about Maria Higashio, be sure to enjoy thriceplus’s and my beyond-genius theory why she is most definitely Renya Karasuma having gone underground as a seven-year-old girl. By the way, back then I failed to mention that Vermouth is the “boss’s favorite” because she acts as the boss’s parents—both mother and father—, allowing a supposedly dead old fart to live that wicked life of a seven-year-old girl. But honestly, I’m still holding the view that this hypothesis is much less ridiculous than it should be, especially considering how random this character’s return may be at first glance and how frighteningly much sense its timing would make. With due respect, I would rather support this crackpot idea than MeiTanteixX’s suggestions concerning her.


I don't think Maria is Anokata, but Anokata being shrunk isn't that crazy of an idea to me, either.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
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