Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 327

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 27th, 2018, 3:23 am

It is not that easy.
Kuroda is not a disguise, his face, skin are all his flesh and blood. Points to consider that Kuroda and Tsutomu had different hair and different eyebrows. Akai Tsutomu looks pretty much like Shukichi Haneda.(as mentioned by Masumi).
By Plastic surgery you can change your face, can lift the eyebrow but can't change the nature of your hairline and eyebrows.

Then there are plot arguments which poses a serious challenge to Kuroda=Tsutomu theory.

a)Kuroda assumes that "U MASCARA" mentions Wakasa Rumi. If Kuroda is Tsutomu and he went as far as making enemies with them, then this interpretation makes no sense if Tsutomu is as smart as Shukichi Haneda.

b.1) Kuroda assumes that Rumi had killed Kohji. (he even compares the body of Kohji with the pro golfer's knocked out posture.)
b.2) Tsutomu's finger jab technique has been foreshadowed and linked with permanent eye damage and thus Tsutomu vs Rum fight has been mentioned.(in an abductive way)
These two don't fit together. Also Kuroda remembers a dead Kohji yet he doesn't recall the bruise mark on Haneda's palm. Tsutomu like insight is far better than that.

c)Kuroda has been brought up as Non BO, interested party and possibly swapped(though not mid-coma due to the white hair issue) before the coma, guy. As of now he is a Tsutomu herring. Just like Rumi is Asaka herring and Wakita is Rum herring.

Regarding the three Rum theory, it has been debunked by Gosho.
champagne
Posts: 16

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby champagne » October 27th, 2018, 5:27 pm

I hope Wakita shows up in the next case, it's really about time to get more hints.
While he seems more likely to be Rum than Kuroda and Rumi (because there has been so little about him and he hasn't met Ai), it's hard to believe that #2 in the BO has to go undercover as a sushi chef and beg Kogoro to accept him as an apprentice when he's already ordering Bourbon around who has already acquired such a position.
Plus it would be super repetitive if the guy who works in a restaurant close to Kogoro and wants to be his apprentice turns out to be the wanted BO guy again. I know Gosho has been repetitive on a number of occasions, but wouldn't that be a bit too much of the same old?

I have a similar gripe concerning Iori - why would #2 in the BO have to pose as a rich girl's butler :D? Plus I would have thought that Rum is a long-term member and thus old (and there's also the "old man" description and he was already an active BO member 17 years ago), so Iori seems to be too young, unless it turns out he's way older than he appears to be.

About Chikara... It would kinda beg the question why Rum is a shogi player :D? But then again, at the end of the day they're all just human as well and maybe he just likes to play shogi ;D? And since Kohji was a shogi player, there would be a connection to the case from 17 years ago.
Kor wrote:What's the twist, though? While Araide was indeed seemingly unrelated, he was still around, he met Conan and Haibara and Ran and Jodie, etc. With Katsumata, the only one he's met is Shuukichi. Is it really such a strong twist if a literal nobody turns out to be Rum?

But I would have to agree with this, so far he's just a "nobody".

I don't even have high expectations when it comes to Rum's identity. I could live with any of the people who have been suggested at some point to really be Rum. All I want is that Rum's reveal and the confrontation with him triggers something important. I mean Conan already knows how Gin, Vodka etc. look like and that they're on the move, so it would be really frustrating and pointless if Rum is revealed and it leads to nothing.
shinichi1977
Posts: 64

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby shinichi1977 » October 27th, 2018, 7:04 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:It is not that easy.
Kuroda is not a disguise, his face, skin are all his flesh and blood. Points to consider that Kuroda and Tsutomu had different hair and different eyebrows. Akai Tsutomu looks pretty much like Shukichi Haneda.(as mentioned by Masumi).
By Plastic surgery you can change your face, can lift the eyebrow but can't change the nature of your hairline and eyebrows.

Then there are plot arguments which poses a serious challenge to Kuroda=Tsutomu theory.

a)Kuroda assumes that "U MASCARA" mentions Wakasa Rumi. If Kuroda is Tsutomu and he went as far as making enemies with them, then this interpretation makes no sense if Tsutomu is as smart as Shukichi Haneda.

b.1) Kuroda assumes that Rumi had killed Kohji. (he even compares the body of Kohji with the pro golfer's knocked out posture.)
b.2) Tsutomu's finger jab technique has been foreshadowed and linked with permanent eye damage and thus Tsutomu vs Rum fight has been mentioned.(in an abductive way)
These two don't fit together. Also Kuroda remembers a dead Kohji yet he doesn't recall the bruise mark on Haneda's palm. Tsutomu like insight is far better than that.

c)Kuroda has been brought up as Non BO, interested party and possibly swapped(though not mid-coma due to the white hair issue) before the coma, guy. As of now he is a Tsutomu herring. Just like Rumi is Asaka herring and Wakita is Rum herring.

Regarding the three Rum theory, it has been debunked by Gosho.


https://video.wired.com/watch/how-spies-use-disguises Now this is how real life works, and the video contains a specific mention to how you can drastically change gait, posture, mannerisms, also how a person can be made look smaller or bigger, including hair and eyebrows, so that alone does not convince me it's drastically unchangeable. If I wouldn't tell you Tilda Swinton plays a guy in the remake of Suspiria, you'd be just as surprised as I was, since unlike with Stardust and Glenn Close where you could see the jawline, this disguise is brutal.

I'm not sure if you've never met a person who was single-minded on certain issues, to the point they conform evidence to their theory. It doesn't matter how smart they are, the biggest mass murderers of the last century were plenty smart and yet deeply caught up in a web of ethnic hatred.

Regarding debunking it, Gosho rarely if ever gives straight answers, and the last interview I've read is from 2016.
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » October 27th, 2018, 7:53 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Then there are plot arguments which poses a serious challenge to Kuroda=Tsutomu theory.

a)Kuroda assumes that "U MASCARA" mentions Wakasa Rumi. If Kuroda is Tsutomu and he went as far as making enemies with them, then this interpretation makes no sense if Tsutomu is as smart as Shukichi Haneda.


When does he assume that?


Zerozaki4869 wrote:b.1) Kuroda assumes that Rumi had killed Kohji. (he even compares the body of Kohji with the pro golfer's knocked out posture.)
b.2) Tsutomu's finger jab technique has been foreshadowed and linked with permanent eye damage and thus Tsutomu vs Rum fight has been mentioned.(in an abductive way)
These two don't fit together. Also Kuroda remembers a dead Kohji yet he doesn't recall the bruise mark on Haneda's palm. Tsutomu like insight is far better than that.


When does he assumes that Rumi killed Kohji?
When does he compares the body of Kohji to the pro golfers knocked out posture?

So basically ur saying:
Tsutomu is intelligent.
So Tsutomu has to think about what I think (is right).
Kuroda doesnt think about the things that I think.
Kuroda cant be Tsutomu then.

I think you just reached a new level *elmo*


Zerozaki4869 wrote:c)Kuroda has been brought up as Non BO, interested party and possibly swapped(though not mid-coma due to the white hair issue) before the coma, guy. As of now he is a Tsutomu herring. Just like Rumi is Asaka herring and Wakita is Rum herring.

Regarding the three Rum theory, it has been debunked by Gosho.


Its interesting you started stating that Kuroda is a Tsutomu-herring right after Kor pointed out the similiarities.
I wonder where youve been the years before after Kuroda was introduced.
You never even implied slightest that Kuroda is a Tsutomu-herring.
Actually nothing really points to Kuroda being a Tsutomu-herring simply because there are no
"obvious similarities" or atleast a connection between those two brought up within the manga in a "red herringish" manner.
So no - Kuroda couldnt be a lesser Tsutomu-herring.

Rumi can be an Asaka-herring.
I doubt it though and think shes Asaka.

I agree with Wakita being a Rum-herring to a certain extent.
But so far Kuroda and Rumi are being portrayed to the "average reader" as BO-members.
(APTX-list+aura / "Bourbon...")
So so far theyre more Rum-red-herringish than Wakita is.


But lets hold on to the things that we agree on:
Rum isnt one of the three main suspects - theyre all red herrings.
Rum is a 4th person.

So basically were just arguing about who the mysterious 4th suspect is.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 327

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 27th, 2018, 9:26 pm

He can only assume that. He is not privy to the Hotta hearsay info.
He has no way to go by the route of Asaka=Rumi=Woman. So only way left is Rumi=dying message. Mary was privy to the existence of a shady Karasuma group. Karasuma Group was a company operating in Japan. Mary was stationed in UK, so it is likely that Tsutomu passed the info to her. So the obvious question is why Tsutomu doesn't interpret as Karasuma Group and seek Bourbon's help more if he is Kuroda?(like asking him to gather intel about Kohji case from BO rank and file)

He assumed it lock, stock and barrel. If he thought that Rumi is referencing Kohji case players then he would be more interested in investigating Rumi, not putting up a surveillance mission.He thought that Rumi can't be trusted around Conan, but given things from an in-universe setting, Kuroda can only know that Rumi had fought robbers to help Justice, Rumi helped cops to round up the Pro-golfer. It's a shinning C.V. Too shinning to be kept under watch. But if he has marked Rumi as a killer he will waste no time, which he did.

You know there is this good idea of character capabilities.
Tsutomu is stated to be as intelligent as Shukichi. Now, if Tsutomu had fought Rum, then after the fight someone came and destroyed the crime-scene , went running away with the shogi piece after prying open Kohji's palm(Tsutomu will remember that Haneda's fist was balled not open, so he will also be privy and interested about it), then Tsutomu would be searching for two perpetrators. Rum and the crime scene destroyer. Also if he was recalling Rumi, then just an image of her would have been sufficient, if he was only recalling Kohji case the glimpse of the paper would have been enough. But we all saw that he recalled the position of Kohji's corpse rather the position of the head of the corpse(it was turned) and then recalled how the Pro-golfer lie knocked out.

No, I always called him a Tsutomu herring.(In discussions on whether he was Tsutomu or not)
(I can also cite the example that You were mum regarding the whole Vermouth arc, why didn't you open your mouth when Jodie appeared?)
It is obnoxiously hilarious.(seeing you measuring the depth of abyss.Keep on, it gives me more laughs than "Elmo")

Kuroda is a total Tsutomu Herring. You just need to read it from 913.
First it established Kuroda as a Rum suspect, plus swapped, then Haibara gave him a "Not BO" certificate plus Haibara reasoned that how Kuroda can't be Rum.
Then in back to back cases we get two potent info. A) Asaka is rumoured to be an woman. B)Tsutomu was involved in that case and his body was not found in Juke hotel.
In 975 we got the info that Tsutomu's body is yet to be found.
The case just after it pushed the thought that Kuroda is interested in Rumi. 989 almost sealed that Kuroda is trying to catch Kohji killer.
These infos are spelled out by characters for casual readers. If these are not Tsutomu herrings then what is??
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » October 28th, 2018, 5:07 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:He can only assume that. He is not privy to the Hotta hearsay info.
He has no way to go by the route of Asaka=Rumi=Woman. So only way left is Rumi=dying message. Mary was privy to the existence of a shady Karasuma group. Karasuma Group was a company operating in Japan. Mary was stationed in UK, so it is likely that Tsutomu passed the info to her. So the obvious question is why Tsutomu doesn't interpret as Karasuma Group and seek Bourbon's help more if he is Kuroda?(like asking him to gather intel about Kohji case from BO rank and file)


He cant not only assume that.
You dont know if he is privy to the Hotta hearsay info.
He has a lot of potential ways to go by the route of Asaka=Rumi=Woman.
You dont know how he interpretates the dying message.
You dont know what Gosho makes him know.

You dont have even ONE - NOT A SINGLE ONE - sentence about the dying message from either Kuroda or Tsutomu.
Yet you base all of ur statements on ur assumptions on what you think Kuroda and Tsutomu should know.
Again: Not a single thing is stated about the Kohji case by both so far.


Zerozaki4869 wrote:He assumed it lock, stock and barrel. If he thought that Rumi is referencing Kohji case players then he would be more interested in investigating Rumi, not putting up a surveillance mission.He thought that Rumi can't be trusted around Conan, but given things from an in-universe setting, Kuroda can only know that Rumi had fought robbers to help Justice, Rumi helped cops to round up the Pro-golfer. It's a shinning C.V. Too shinning to be kept under watch. But if he has marked Rumi as a killer he will waste no time, which he did.


Erm ... so he doesnt trust her and thinks shes the killer.
And he didnt wasted time.
Simple question: Why doesnt he arrest her then but let her walk away instead?
What did he accomplish by saying "Hi" to her in the woods?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:You know there is this good idea of character capabilities.
Tsutomu is stated to be as intelligent as Shukichi. Now, if Tsutomu had fought Rum, then after the fight someone came and destroyed the crime-scene , went running away with the shogi piece after prying open Kohji's palm(Tsutomu will remember that Haneda's fist was balled not open, so he will also be privy and interested about it), then Tsutomu would be searching for two perpetrators. Rum and the crime scene destroyer. Also if he was recalling Rumi, then just an image of her would have been sufficient, if he was only recalling Kohji case the glimpse of the paper would have been enough. But we all saw that he recalled the position of Kohji's corpse rather the position of the head of the corpse(it was turned) and then recalled how the Pro-golfer lie knocked out.


Again we dont know how much chars there were at the scene.
You dont know it and we dont know it if Tsutomu knows it.
Being intelligent doesnt mean being omniscient in Tsutomus case.

I still must admit that ur interpretation on why there were "extra pics" of her with the
k.o.ed golfer + Kohjis body on the other side in pretty similar positions looks pretty good to me.

But dont you think its weird that he didnt arrest her then when meeting her?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:No, I always called him a Tsutomu herring.(In discussions on whether he was Tsutomu or not)
(I can also cite the example that You were mum regarding the whole Vermouth arc, why didn't you open your mouth when Jodie appeared?)
It is obnoxiously hilarious.(seeing you measuring the depth of abyss.Keep on, it gives me more laughs than "Elmo")


Erm... where did I was when Vermouth arc appeared?
About 16 years ago... I was at school.
And certainly not at this forum.
You on the other side are able to proof that you claimed Kuroda being a Tsutomu herring way before anybody made that connection.
Were excited.


Zerozaki4869 wrote:Kuroda is a total Tsutomu Herring. You just need to read it from 913.
First it established Kuroda as a Rum suspect, plus swapped, then Haibara gave him a "Not BO" certificate plus Haibara reasoned that how Kuroda can't be Rum.
Then in back to back cases we get two potent info. A) Asaka is rumoured to be an woman. B)Tsutomu was involved in that case and his body was not found in Juke hotel.
In 975 we got the info that Tsutomu's body is yet to be found.
The case just after it pushed the thought that Kuroda is interested in Rumi. 989 almost sealed that Kuroda is trying to catch Kohji killer.


Yeah... Im sure we will find hints that Kuroda is a Tsutomu herring right from 913 on.
Doesnt matter that Tsutomu wasnt even introed yet.
Gosho just started right there!

"First it established Kuroda as a Rum suspect" -> No direct connection for Kuroda being Tsutomu
"plus swapped" -> No direct connection for Kuroda being Tsutomu
"then Haibara gave him a "Not BO" certificate plus Haibara reasoned that how Kuroda can't be Rum -> No direct connection for Kuroda being Tsutomu
"Then in back to back cases we get two potent info. A) Asaka is rumoured to be an woman. B)Tsutomu was involved in that case and his body was not found in Juke hotel." -> No direct connection for Kuroda being Tsutomu
"In 975 we got the info that Tsutomu's body is yet to be found -> No direct connection for Kuroda being Tsutomu
"The case just after it pushed the thought that Kuroda is interested in Rumi. 989 almost sealed that Kuroda is trying to catch Kohji killer. -> nope, too


Zerozaki4869 wrote:These infos are spelled out by characters for casual readers. If these are not Tsutomu herrings then what is??


Dont you find it weird that pretty much noone went for Kuroda=Tsutomu for a long time?
If those are such clear red herrings, then people mustve gone completely mad for this.
But nothing happened.

Red herrings are things such as Rumi being shown with the APTX list or Kuroda calling Amuro Bourbon.
Things which are mostly on the last page and are being punched into the readers face.
Not things which are in the last part of a sentence in only one panel at page 9 of a chapter.
These ones will mostly end up as hints - not herrings.

To answer ur question:
Those are not Tsutomu-herrings, but rather hints/herrings for Kuroda either being Rum or not being Rum.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 28th, 2018, 11:52 pm

He isn't privy to it. Only Masumi got it out of him(Kokuri) before he was taken away.
Conan doesn't have it and it had nothing to do with the murder so why would the Kanrikan(Kuroda) get to know about it?
Again the name "Wakasa Rumi" struck him, then he was seen focusing on the broken mirror.(if you can't make the connection, then switch to better network, so it is a logical deduction, plus he got files from Shiratori regarding the 10-year old skeleton case.)

Again you won't use verifiable facts, Karasuma group was a red flagged(supposedly rogue) organization. Tsutomu's wife who was an woman stationed in UK, thought that group was bad. Fat chance she had no ways of knowing it, other than the info being passed on by Tsutomu. Even if it wasn't passed onto her by Tsutomu, still she would have told Tsutomu about the decision of the Miyanos. Given Tsutomu was an operative of some secret service, so it would be helpful to take him in confidence for the eventuality.
So, if Kuroda is Tsutomu then why he appears to be so oblivious to these info?


Again some-body interrupted Rum during the clean-up. That much you agree, I guess?
Now given Kuroda's linking of Rumi with the dying message plus recalling the extra pics.+recalling a glimpse of the corpse(focused on his turned head.) proves to me that it wasn't Kuroda.
Now here I admit that I've no proof to point out which of the two attacked Rum.
But given the finger-jab eye gouging technique I lean towards Tsutomu. Now if Tsutomu had beaten the crap out of Rum and made him flee the scene then Rum would not be in a position to pry open Kohji's hand and take out the shogi piece. So Tsutomu would remember the position of Kohji's hand and his balled fist. If Kuroda was Tsutomu this would have given us the sneak peek into the idea of the bruise in Kohji's palm.

No it is not weird. You don't get to arrest people for carrying a suspicious name and aiding the Justice , directly(even if that person's profession doesn't require you to aid the Justice directly).
You can't suspect people then make an arrest, you need to get primafacie evidence. As of now Kuroda can only suspect Rumi.

This what happens when you are so immersed in an idea that you ignore verifiable facts.
In 913 Kuroda got introduced with an implication of being swapped.
Selfie case made him meet Haibara and get the clean chit.(Haibara was genuinely afraid of his appearance, so yes BO-dar failure argument won't hold here.)
So he can't be Rum anymore(to even the most casual reader.)
Now two extra missing characters are introduced and one of them is framed as an woman.
Kuroda was shown to pursue Kohji case killer.
That's how indirect framing works. So using indirect framing Kuroda becomes Tsutomu, he doesn't become Tsutomu by the merit of showing a behaviour pattern which matches with a real Tsutomu (who was trying to round up Kohji killer and had clashed with Rum and uses idioms, too much.)

Now if you match it with Bourbon arc, well yeah Masumi became Masumi because her behaviour pattern(which matched with a sister trying to uncover her Onii-san's death mystery, matched by circumstantial evidence), Subaru became Akai (He was behaving in a way in which real Akai would have behaved in this situation which got corroborated by circumstantial evidence .), Scar Akai became Bourbon(He was also behaving in a way whcih will ensure whether the killing of Akai was a hoax or not.), Amuro became Bourbon(He was behaving in a way which justifies a BO intel gatherer hunting for Sherry, plus corroborating circumstantial evidence.)
So all in all, jumping to any train for now is suicidal, a safer bet is to invest in circumstantial evidences.
a)Tsutomu used idioms and phrases.

As of now there is no roadblock for Tsutomu to be Wakita. All we know is that Wakita lacks the suavity of Bourbon, he hunches just enough to give the impression that he is old.
He is the only one whose combat abilities were not shown to us.
Mary and Gin used the same quote, which implies that Tsutomu might have already infiltrated BO.
Wakita was introduced with three drinks one on them being Japanese Whiskey.(Highball is made up of that, in Japan)
This intro came on the same year when the darkest nightmare which established Rei's three fold identity in the mainstream. That movie was also referenced. So chances are that Wakita is a spy in BO of NPA(aka Tsutomu Akai/Kuroda V1)

Regarding why didn't I voiced my opinion?
Well you should have got it from the example but you didn't so I'll elucidate.
I started the series during the last quarter of 2016, 2016 October to be specific. And I can only comment here after I've read through it, completely, which took me about 7-8 months to binge read.
mtcc
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby mtcc » October 29th, 2018, 5:32 am

zerozaki in Japanese roku and muttsu could mean number 6 which can find in tsutomu name and kuroda it is hard to be just a coincidence and remember okiya was the red guy from the first case
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 30th, 2018, 12:58 am

mtcc wrote:zerozaki in Japanese roku and muttsu could mean number 6 which can find in tsutomu name and kuroda it is hard to be just a coincidence and remember okiya was the red guy from the first case


Do you know that Kanji reading of Chikara Katsumata's name means Tsutomu. It has the same Zumu-kanji in it.
So Chikara=Tsutomu then?(if I take your argument)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » October 30th, 2018, 1:24 am

champagne wrote:I have a similar gripe concerning Iori - why would #2 in the BO have to pose as a rich girl's butler :D? Plus I would have thought that Rum is a long-term member and thus old (and there's also the "old man" description and he was already an active BO member 17 years ago), so Iori seems to be too young, unless it turns out he's way older than he appears to be.
that rich girl's power is implied to reach even the governor's actions, so...make of it what you will.

Or just old enough to be Sherry's age 17 years ago.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Spimer » October 30th, 2018, 8:01 am

I think you've got things mixed up with the Kanji, Zerozaki.

力勝又 (Chikara Katsumata)

赤井務武 (Akai Tsutomu)

While it's true that 務 contains 力 on it, so do many other kanjis. I don't think that guarantees a direct connection.

Also, I agree with dccd that you don't provide quotes or so to back what you word as if they were facts.

Where'd you get the idea Tsutomu was supposed to have died in the Juke Hotel and that his body wasn't found there, for example?
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sherry26
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby sherry26 » October 30th, 2018, 8:15 am

mtcc wrote:in Japanese roku and muttsu could mean number 6 which can find in tsutomu name and kuroda it is hard to be just a coincidence and remember okiya was the red guy from the first case


By going with this logic, Wakita Kanenori has to be rum because of ' time is money'. Also, Okiya being the red guy can't be compared here.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » October 30th, 2018, 11:19 am

Spimer wrote:I think you've got things mixed up with the Kanji, Zerozaki.

力勝又 (Chikara Katsumata)

赤井務武 (Akai Tsutomu)

While it's true that 務 contains 力 on it, so do many other kanjis. I don't think that guarantees a direct connection.

Also, I agree with dccd that you don't provide quotes or so to back what you word as if they were facts.

Where'd you get the idea Tsutomu was supposed to have died in the Juke Hotel and that his body wasn't found there, for example?


No I didn't, I never said that the Kanji is same, all I said that their readings spell out "Tsutomu".
Now, this is the source(you can deny that Check is not an authority, but then I can use Knaji directory also.)

Checks's take on their names

Again I would like to think that You failed to read MTCC's claim or grasp the essence of my argument which implied that MTCC's claim is not admissible evidence.(Counter example to prove him that random connective assertions are not admissible in hard theorising debates.)

Again you totally missed the argument(gives me the feeling that you hardly follow a conversation before commenting), I never ever said that Tsutomu was killed or his body was to be found in Juke Hotel, I just said that his body wasn't found in Juke hotel(where the case happened which made him go underground) and neither it was found later. Thus giving us a strong possibility of an alive and active Tsutomu.
This was the argument, now if anyone who is reading the Manga spoilers is not privy to the info regarding Juke hotel and then Shuichi's own admission in the Encounter in the ripples case, then I don't really know whether they should be reading it in the first place or not.
Now once might be just random chance, but twice making the same mistake on the same post(which can easily be averted if you had followed the convo) makes me think that You're targetting me for no reason at all(or the reason is that your opinios do not align with mine?)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby mtcc » October 30th, 2018, 3:33 pm

sherry26 wrote:
mtcc wrote:in Japanese roku and muttsu could mean number 6 which can find in tsutomu name and kuroda it is hard to be just a coincidence and remember okiya was the red guy from the first case


By going with this logic, Wakita Kanenori has to be rum because of ' time is money'. Also, Okiya being the red guy can't be compared here.


no, I don't mean that I mean to keep it simple
be using his logic okiya cannot be akai becuase gosho call him the red guy
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » October 30th, 2018, 4:58 pm

Well Zaki,
I think pretty much noone is targetting you on a personal basis.
Its only natural that a person who makes big guesses and acts
if those claims/ guesses/assumptions are facts will get tested a bit harder.

Ur current claim is: Kuroda is being portrayed as a Tsutomu-redherring by the manga.
I couldnt disagree more.
In the whole manga there is not one sentence or thought, not even a word, which puts
Kuroda in direct connection to Tsutomu.
Not even a _highlighted_ paralleled behaviour, absolutely nothing.

I agree with MTX: Kuroda, Rumi and Wakita are all being portrayed as Rum at times.
Kuroda - right after his intro - due to him fitting the descriptions and Conans reaction / later by the Bourbon-scene
Rumi - right after her intro - due to matching the supposed dying message and her similarity with Asaka / later by her aura / later by APTX-list
Wakita - right after his intro - by Conans thought, by the "closest to the boss"-Yaiba-thing, by him being Kogoros disciple (like Bourbon was).

For a long time Rumi was the prime - Rum suspect.
Yes - even if you will argue again that shes a woman.
Still you cant deny that shes portrayed as a Rum suspect BIG TIME by Gosho, can you?

After the meaning of the dying message supposedly changed from Asaka=Rum to Karasuma
I was expecting a shift of focus from her to either Kuroda or Wakita.
And what happened?
Kuroda was shown calling Amuro Bourbon.
And polls changed accordingly by that.

So: How does Kuroda being portrayed as Tsutomu fits with Kuroda calling Amuro Bourbon
( = and therefore being portrayed as Rum ) ?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler

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