Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » February 11th, 2018, 10:45 am

Somehow mma-fighters did not heard about your theory of "hardened skin" yet.
Because they look like crap after their fights.

And it doesnt matter how strong Rumi is - Gosho simply wanted to show us:
She can fight pretty well - probably even with one damaged/lost eye.
She is an possibe Asaka-candidate.
From an objective point of view - if she has one (damaged) eye - this even
speaks for her being experienced to fight with one eye since one doesnt knock out 3 guys that easily.
Secondly

And ur current theory is that Rumi attacked Mary.
Cool that ur ignoring the only hint we have so far:
Mary prefers to attack the left eye.
Rumi has a right damaged eye.
Kuroda has a right damaged eye.
Wakita has a left damaged eye.

Now someone really needs to be a genius to figure out who attacked Mary.
My god...
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
mtcc
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby mtcc » February 11th, 2018, 5:58 pm

hyoue in english = he + you which means two person
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 272

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » February 11th, 2018, 9:32 pm

dccd wrote:Somehow mma-fighters did not heard about your theory of "hardened skin" yet.
Because they look like crap after their fights.

And it doesnt matter how strong Rumi is - Gosho simply wanted to show us:
She can fight pretty well - probably even with one damaged/lost eye.
She is an possibe Asaka-candidate.
From an objective point of view - if she has one (damaged) eye - this even
speaks for her being experienced to fight with one eye since one doesnt knock out 3 guys that easily.
Secondly

And ur current theory is that Rumi attacked Mary.
Cool that ur ignoring the only hint we have so far:
Mary prefers to attack the left eye.
Rumi has a right damaged eye.
Kuroda has a right damaged eye.
Wakita has a left damaged eye.

Now someone really needs to be a genius to figure out who attacked Mary.
My god...


Yup, it's god tier deduction. I know it.
Wakita said his eye is invested with a stye/boil. He was even ready to show it. It's a proof that he was telling the truth, it's not an eye injury. It's neither a damaged eye, you're just jumping the gun, to force Wakita be the Mary attacker.(When he isn't.)

Now Mary has a variety of stuff in her arsenal, not the only knife hand strike which landed on Shuichi's left eye. The Producer guy was Karate chopped at the temple.

It's not hardened skin, it's hardened knee or elbow, have you seen their knees or elbow look like shit after a fight? No it won't becauce the practice on woodmen and sandbags to prefect their techniques. Thus the knee and the elbow gets hardened. Rumi is not a fighter who practises her techniques like that.

She knocked the three guys, who were no fighters themselves and the last two were knocked out by a long range Bo-staff. Anybody strong enough to wield it would have done in the last two.

Yes someone really needs to be genius to find who attacked Mary and it's Sakurako......
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » February 11th, 2018, 10:41 pm

Good mornin`

I admit its a bit early to fully commit to him being the attacker since there might be more chars showing up with a hurt left eye.
But at this point of the story - focus on the 3 main suspects for a couple of files - I heavily doubt it.

His comment and the context cant be more anti-proof to be honest.
I was wrong when I said that Tsutomus left eye wasnt shown, because it was (both of his eyes were shown in the beach case).
So the only left (not in the sense of right/left) hidden eye is Wakitas!
And its 100% that there will be a plottwist with his eye not only having a stye/boil.
Its the same with the Asaka=Rum -dying message.
This kind of facts presented to you at the beginning or the mid of an arc (or a crime story) are never true,
since there has to be room to make a plottwist.

And she obviously is an experienced fighter. It cant get any more obvious than that after 2 fighting scenes.
But well, let us drop that topic, since we cant prove/disprove each other.

And technically you are right:
Sakurako probably instruct Wakita to attack Mary, so shes the attacker.
Atleast on that one we agree ;) :D
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
blackmoon
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » February 12th, 2018, 12:51 am

Okay, I would like to direct your attention to a previous case, file 781-786, to demonstrate how complicated and sophisticated a case may be when presented by Gosho. (In other words, how Gosho is capable of misleading readers in a case multiple times.)

Basically, in this file, even Conan altered his deductions more than twice. First, it was deduced that the victim died by consuming a piece of poisoned fish-cake. Then it was deduced that it was a set-up by the culprit to make it seem like the cake was poisoned, while it was the door-handle that was sprinkled with poison. Then it was deduced that the poison on the door-handle was a set-up to mislead investigations, and it was in fact the cake that was poisoned. So, like the diagonal-angled tiles that were used to mislead vision, the case presented crisscrossing evidence to prove and disprove itself before arriving at a final conclusion.

i suspect, the triple suspect of RUM serves exactly the same purpose as above. First you make one appear like RUM, then you disprove that and make another appear more suspicious, only to be disproved again to arrive at another more likely suspect. @[email protected] :o

Image
Image
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 272

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » February 12th, 2018, 10:48 am

To Compare Asaka=Rum with Wakita's eye injury is as funny as hell and false equivalence.

For the former there were several pointers which nullified it,(like how Kohji knew Rum's codename? How Kohji knew that Asaka was Rum? To be precise, these questions were answered by Conan himself,"Why BO would kill a shogi player?")

On the other hand there is nothing nullifying Wakita's honesty, rather things prove it. He's wearing a medical gauze, which is used for treating ulcers, pimples. Don't think about the characters based on out universe logic,(like if Wakita's eye is seen then the all will be revealed rather think that why would Wakita risk to show his eye voluntarily if he's so cautious to hide it in the first place?It was Wakita who wanted to show his eye, not the other way around. If I'm correct, Wakita thinks that Kogoro is aware of Rum's prosthetic eye, so he's just trying to say that he is not Rum, thus offering to show his eye.) (If You look closely, you can see Shuichi's injury in not in his eye, rather it's on his eye socket. Wakita's eye is injured not his eye socket. I think you're mixing up Knife hand strike with finger jab of Jeet Kune Do.)
PhantomWriter
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » February 12th, 2018, 6:43 pm

The E-Y-E cases reminded me of the Mysterious Affair at Styles. (I had both Curtain and Murder on the Orient Express ruined for me and still remember the twist for each, so I'm spoiler-tagging this.)

Spoiler:
A suspect wanted to get arrested and put on trial, so that he would be found not guilty because of a lack of evidence. Then, if/when the truth did come out, he couldn't be convicted because England has laws against double jeopardy. Thus he made himself suspicious and then framed an innocent party into looking like he was framing the guilty party.


However, the going back and forth for deductions could apply to major suspects of the arc cases, not just the E-Y-E case. Old information can take on new meanings with new information, since it may provide additional context or a new way of framing that old information.
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
Adel34
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Adel34 » February 13th, 2018, 1:33 pm

I have another question. The three descriptions of Rum being strong, old and feminine, how do they fit each of the three suspects? Kuroda and Wakita are not feminine and Rumi is not old.
PhantomWriter
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » February 13th, 2018, 7:50 pm

Adel34 wrote:I have another question. The three descriptions of Rum being strong, old and feminine, how do they fit each of the three suspects? Kuroda and Wakita are not feminine and Rumi is not old.


There are several ideas that usually come up to explain it-

  • That Rum is using a disguise to alter features, akin to Iori's shifting from the Wada fake identity to his normal uniform.
  • That Rum has body doubles.
  • That Rum is like Yamato, who has physical traits that represent all three elements.
  • That one of the traits is wrong. This is the weakest, since there's no indication that this is the case and because there's a difference between a red herring and outright lying to an audience. (A red herring involves the audience filling in the gaps with presuppositions and assumptions that are unwarranted or not giving up on a piece of information that's shown to be false.)
  • Or that Rum's conflicting descriptions are due to issues of eyewitness testimony, so people will bring their preconceptions into their assessment of Rum or the conditions when they meet Rum alter how they view him.

As for each, Wakasa could be considered old in the sense that women are generally considered "old" much sooner than men. Meanwhile, Kuroda has a curious predilection for tea in a context where coffee is the drink of choice. Wakita's got less information than the other two, which makes it hard to determine if he does have anything that could be pointed to.
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » February 13th, 2018, 8:51 pm

For Wakita its his attutide/laughing.

Spoiler:
Image


TBH one can find this sort of things in every character.
"Old" can mean "behaving like an adult" / " to like a thing which usually only older people like "
Strong can mean literally everything as "being strong mentally"
and feminine aswell.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » February 13th, 2018, 9:55 pm

As far as we know, Kansuke is a Rum model with a rejoinder(that if his face is not seen only then the interpretations hold).

If somebody saw his face then he can't be classified as neither an old nor an womanly man, despite having a walking stick(old) and ponytail(womanly). There was a Southpark episode where the boys mistook a man with a ponytail as an woman and followed him around till they saw his face. It's the same over here. So I think that nobody in BO has seen Rum's face.
PhantomWriter
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » February 14th, 2018, 1:34 am

The possible issue of people having trouble identifying Rum is the reason why I have a crack theory: Rum covers his eye or something similar all the time, starting the rumor that he's missing an eye, but he isn't actually missing an eye.

Rum could be seen in very different conditions, so people don't know major descriptive details about him. These conditions can include major variances in light. The idea is that some of the codenames have some amount of joking reference in relation to the real-world history of the drinks (bourbon replaces rye in many modern cocktails) or else internal jokes (like how a Kir is a double-layered cocktail). Rum was incredibly popular with pirates and associated with them (along with the British royal navy). Pirates also tend to be depicted wearing eye-patches, but a common misconception is that it's because they were missing an eye. Pirates wore them because it granted them low light vision- if you went above to below deck, it took a while to adjust to the dark, otherwise.
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
Adel34
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Adel34 » February 14th, 2018, 10:42 am

I see. I have one more question - I saw somewhere in this thread that Sakurako Yonehara is considered a Rum suspect... How? Why?
PhantomWriter
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » February 14th, 2018, 12:56 pm

I am uncertain of if the Sakurako theory is posited seriously. Likewise, I've heard theories she's Hyoue's daughter, though I don't know if this has any particular merit or was proposed seriously or not.

The how probably has to do with how she looks at people and the association with black tea. It's very common for characters to glance to the side in this series and Chekhov has a post regarding characters' vision ranges. (The control for characters with binocular vision being Conan and ones missing an eye being Yamato, for obvious reasons.) Chekhov noted one thing in particular- Sakurako is constantly turning her head to look directly at people instead of glancing to the side. This is oddly inconsistent with the rest of the characters who appear to have both eyes working properly.

As for the black tea, it's because there are two major plot associations with it and how she both repeatedly serves it and later requests it for herself. Kohji and Amanda drank it before they died to Rum, and Hyoue (a Rum suspect) drinks it regularly.

However, her age is what makes me think the Rum theory is unlikely. She's 23, her childhood associations have been established, and she would have been five during the Kohji case. Along with it, even if we account for APTX causing victims to deage, this doesn't work. The Organization is still unaware of the shrinking effect of the poison and Rum shrinking would certainly raise questions about using the poison to kill people and anyone whose body didn't turn up would be under scrutiny. Sherry was quite keen on keeping that information secret because the Organization didn't know.
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
mtcc
Posts: 25

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby mtcc » February 14th, 2018, 1:25 pm

PhantomWriter wrote:
Adel34 wrote:I have another question. The three descriptions of Rum being strong, old and feminine, how do they fit each of the three suspects? Kuroda and Wakita are not feminine and Rumi is not old.


There are several ideas that usually come up to explain it-

  • That Rum is using a disguise to alter features, akin to Iori's shifting from the Wada fake identity to his normal uniform.
  • That Rum has body doubles.
  • That Rum is like Yamato, who has physical traits that represent all three elements.
  • That one of the traits is wrong. This is the weakest, since there's no indication that this is the case and because there's a difference between a red herring and outright lying to an audience. (A red herring involves the audience filling in the gaps with presuppositions and assumptions that are unwarranted or not giving up on a piece of information that's shown to be false.)
  • Or that Rum's conflicting descriptions are due to issues of eyewitness testimony, so people will bring their preconceptions into their assessment of Rum or the conditions when they meet Rum alter how they view him.

As for each, Wakasa could be considered old in the sense that women are generally considered "old" much sooner than men. Meanwhile, Kuroda has a curious predilection for tea in a context where coffee is the drink of choice. Wakita's got less information than the other two, which makes it hard to determine if he does have anything that could be pointed to.

but agasa cheating in frist chapter of the arc could mean hint from gosho that he will cheat

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