Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
PhantomWriter
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » February 14th, 2018, 2:07 pm

That seems slightly obtuse of him, considering his general trend toward using the "fair play whodunnit," but let's go there for now. And I'd looked it over again just to be certain.

The trick is that all had vinegar in the first place and that the ink was erasable (which was based on heat/friction, so the tea and the sliding around of the coasters would erase the skull). Thus, one could appear to have gotten one with lemon in it, when in reality they hadn't. However, Shuichi later comments to his team that it is incorrect to call it cheating, since all tricks rely on misdirection and that's what Agasa did- misdirected them. The reason the trick worked was because they'd settled with incomplete information- they didn't check the underside of the other coasters and didn't try his tea themselves, assuming that his apparent joy was really joy, and that the ink was only erased with erasers.

(Interesting detail, that the tea given to them is specified as black tea, by the way.)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » February 14th, 2018, 11:01 pm

PhantomWriter wrote:That seems slightly obtuse of him, considering his general trend toward using the "fair play whodunnit," but let's go there for now. And I'd looked it over again just to be certain.

The trick is that all had vinegar in the first place and that the ink was erasable (which was based on heat/friction, so the tea and the sliding around of the coasters would erase the skull). Thus, one could appear to have gotten one with lemon in it, when in reality they hadn't. However, Shuichi later comments to his team that it is incorrect to call it cheating, since all tricks rely on misdirection and that's what Agasa did- misdirected them. The reason the trick worked was because they'd settled with incomplete information- they didn't check the underside of the other coasters and didn't try his tea themselves, assuming that his apparent joy was really joy, and that the ink was only erased with erasers.

(Interesting detail, that the tea given to them is specified as black tea, by the way.)


I suppose this all would mean that there are actually four Rum suspects—not three—and one suspect simply doesn't appear to be one, unlike Hyoe, Rumi and Kanenori.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » February 14th, 2018, 11:45 pm

Exactly. Thats how I perceive the possible clue too.

And we dont got that many possible suspects left.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby mtcc » February 15th, 2018, 12:07 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
PhantomWriter wrote:That seems slightly obtuse of him, considering his general trend toward using the "fair play whodunnit," but let's go there for now. And I'd looked it over again just to be certain.

The trick is that all had vinegar in the first place and that the ink was erasable (which was based on heat/friction, so the tea and the sliding around of the coasters would erase the skull). Thus, one could appear to have gotten one with lemon in it, when in reality they hadn't. However, Shuichi later comments to his team that it is incorrect to call it cheating, since all tricks rely on misdirection and that's what Agasa did- misdirected them. The reason the trick worked was because they'd settled with incomplete information- they didn't check the underside of the other coasters and didn't try his tea themselves, assuming that his apparent joy was really joy, and that the ink was only erased with erasers.

(Interesting detail, that the tea given to them is specified as black tea, by the way.)


I suppose this all would mean that there are actually four Rum suspects—not three—and one suspect simply doesn't appear to be one, unlike Hyoe, Rumi and Kanenori.

THIS IS WHAT I MEAN AND IN THE MANGA FROM GULF CASE UNTIL NOW THREE SUSPECT RUMI WAKITA HYOE
Last edited by mtcc on February 15th, 2018, 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » February 15th, 2018, 12:13 am

PhantomWriter wrote:(Interesting detail, that the tea given to them is specified as black tea, by the way.)


Isn't this simply once again that what we call "black tea" is called "red tea" in Japan? I looked in the manga and it says 紅茶 (Kōcha) in that panel, IE what they call red tea, IE what we call black tea.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » February 15th, 2018, 1:33 am

Yes, I'm aware it's actually red tea and a translation difference. However, that specification of tea is something that's cropped up in this arc, both with Hyoue and Kohji and Amanda.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » February 15th, 2018, 4:32 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
PhantomWriter wrote:That seems slightly obtuse of him, considering his general trend toward using the "fair play whodunnit," but let's go there for now. And I'd looked it over again just to be certain.

The trick is that all had vinegar in the first place and that the ink was erasable (which was based on heat/friction, so the tea and the sliding around of the coasters would erase the skull). Thus, one could appear to have gotten one with lemon in it, when in reality they hadn't. However, Shuichi later comments to his team that it is incorrect to call it cheating, since all tricks rely on misdirection and that's what Agasa did- misdirected them. The reason the trick worked was because they'd settled with incomplete information- they didn't check the underside of the other coasters and didn't try his tea themselves, assuming that his apparent joy was really joy, and that the ink was only erased with erasers.

(Interesting detail, that the tea given to them is specified as black tea, by the way.)


I suppose this all would mean that there are actually four Rum suspects—not three—and one suspect simply doesn't appear to be one, unlike Hyoe, Rumi and Kanenori.
I second this. If we were to draw a parallel to it.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » February 17th, 2018, 12:04 am

MeiTanteixX wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
PhantomWriter wrote:That seems slightly obtuse of him, considering his general trend toward using the "fair play whodunnit," but let's go there for now. And I'd looked it over again just to be certain.

The trick is that all had vinegar in the first place and that the ink was erasable (which was based on heat/friction, so the tea and the sliding around of the coasters would erase the skull). Thus, one could appear to have gotten one with lemon in it, when in reality they hadn't. However, Shuichi later comments to his team that it is incorrect to call it cheating, since all tricks rely on misdirection and that's what Agasa did- misdirected them. The reason the trick worked was because they'd settled with incomplete information- they didn't check the underside of the other coasters and didn't try his tea themselves, assuming that his apparent joy was really joy, and that the ink was only erased with erasers.

(Interesting detail, that the tea given to them is specified as black tea, by the way.)


I suppose this all would mean that there are actually four Rum suspects—not three—and one suspect simply doesn't appear to be one, unlike Hyoe, Rumi and Kanenori.
I second this. If we were to draw a parallel to it.


I'll also second this, but I'm more interested in the fact that is Rumi really a Rum suspect?(She is not a man. Rum is a man, period.)
Now the three Rum suspects are Kuroda, Wakita and Iori. Now if we're drawing a parallel should we include Rumi or a fourth person, who is apparently hasn't shown anything that proves he's Rum but is connected to Kohji, Kohji was able to name him uniquely with dying message and 17 years ago he was in USA and went in Juke hotel without raising any red flags?
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » February 17th, 2018, 12:36 am

So you know for sure that its actually Kohjis dying message and what it really means?

But the gender-question is actually one of the most important questions.
It seems odd that we have women (yes two, Mary and Rumi) presented to us as Rum suspects
while the gender-question should be obvious.
The alcohol-pattern was never confirmed, was it?
Furthermore dont forget about "cheating" which might regard exactly that aspect.

With the way Rum is portraited to us that early: Strong/old/womanly man im inclined to say that Rum is actually a women.
Based on the same logic as the dying message ("what is presented to us at the beginning is not (completely)true").
And thats really absolutely unattached of my personal pick. ;)

But lets see.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » February 17th, 2018, 12:07 pm

dccd wrote:So you know for sure that its actually Kohjis dying message and what it really means?

But the gender-question is actually one of the most important questions.
It seems odd that we have women (yes two, Mary and Rumi) presented to us as Rum suspects
while the gender-question should be obvious.
The alcohol-pattern was never confirmed, was it?
Furthermore dont forget about "cheating" which might regard exactly that aspect.

With the way Rum is portraited to us that early: Strong/old/womanly man im inclined to say that Rum is actually a women.
Based on the same logic as the dying message ("what is presented to us at the beginning is not (completely)true").
And thats really absolutely unattached of my personal pick. ;)

But lets see.


So now are we interpreting dying messages as something which doesn't point to the murderer? Was it a farewell message from Kohji?
Are you saying Kohji is revealing something else about the killer whom he is not supposed to know?
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » February 17th, 2018, 12:25 pm

Actually its not me saying anything about the dying message but you.

It isnt safe that its a dying message.
It isnt safe that its from Kohji.
It isnt safe that its about Rum.
It isnt even safe what the actual meaning of the dying message is.

So atleast to me it kinda seems brave to claim
" Rum is a man, period." or
" Kohji was able to name him uniquely with dying message".

Atleast to me it seems like there about 10 possible outcomes regarding the dying message.
So I wanted to know what makes you so sure about urs?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » February 17th, 2018, 1:43 pm

dccd wrote:Actually its not me saying anything about the dying message but you.

It isnt safe that its a dying message.
It isnt safe that its from Kohji.
It isnt safe that its about Rum.
It isnt even safe what the actual meaning of the dying message is.

So atleast to me it kinda seems brave to claim
" Rum is a man, period." or
" Kohji was able to name him uniquely with dying message".

Atleast to me it seems like there about 10 possible outcomes regarding the dying message.
So I wanted to know what makes you so sure about urs?


Kohji died with scissors in his hand and a Shogi piece in his palm, he died while holding onto them.(the bruises substantiate it.)
If you don't think that's dying message, then probably reasoning is not your cup of tea. And it's logical to assume that Kohji was able to name his killer(random assassins can't be implicated by dying messages. You're not accepting of Rum being Kohji's acquaintance because you want X to be Rum. you don't want to catch Rum.)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » February 17th, 2018, 6:04 pm

Cool, youre even sure about Rum being the killer.
Seems you figured it all out.

So lets hear, what happened back then and whats the dying message?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » February 17th, 2018, 8:35 pm

Well, the "Rum is a man period" stuff has to do with him consistently being referred to as a man, even when called effeminate, and with how alcohol codenames follow a pattern in the canon- women get wines and men get harder liquors. Cocktails are ambiguous, since the only cocktail codename we have is Kir, and her codename uses liqueur and wine. (However, other cocktails have both hard liquor and kinds of wine in them, such as Martinis and Manhattans, but these haven't been used as codenames.) Rum is a harder liquor.

Wakasa is framed as a Rum suspect and an Asaka suspect for various reasons and Mary is an Asaka suspect (and thus a Rum suspect when Conan assumes Asaka is Rum). However, this requires reaching on Kudo's part to entertain the idea because "a woman who is strong like a man" is not what an effeminate man is.

I don't particularly like the idea of there being four people involved directly at the Kohji case scene to parallel the Agasa tea trick. Four people for that tea trick makes sense- a cup for himself and for each of the three children. We've otherwise had no indication of four people being involved in the Kohji case who aren't absolutely, 100% dead, just three. We know Asaka, Rum, and Tsutomu were there/involved, though everything is still murky about each of their actions.

Who would that last person be? Where have they been up to this point?

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
dccd wrote:Actually its not me saying anything about the dying message but you.

It isnt safe that its a dying message.
It isnt safe that its from Kohji.
It isnt safe that its about Rum.
It isnt even safe what the actual meaning of the dying message is.

So atleast to me it kinda seems brave to claim
" Rum is a man, period." or
" Kohji was able to name him uniquely with dying message".

Atleast to me it seems like there about 10 possible outcomes regarding the dying message.
So I wanted to know what makes you so sure about urs?


Kohji died with scissors in his hand and a Shogi piece in his palm, he died while holding onto them.(the bruises substantiate it.)
If you don't think that's dying message, then probably reasoning is not your cup of tea. And it's logical to assume that Kohji was able to name his killer(random assassins can't be implicated by dying messages. You're not accepting of Rum being Kohji's acquaintance because you want X to be Rum. you don't want to catch Rum.)


To be fair, there are some questions I have relating to Kohji's message. Namely the first question- how would he know either of those names (Rum and Karasuma, depending on interpretation)? Sure, I can understand knowing Asaka, because that's Amanda's bodyguard and he would have certainly met them. The other two, at least as those rather specific names, though?

dccd wrote:Cool, youre even sure about Rum being the killer.
Seems you figured it all out.

So lets hear, what happened back then and whats the dying message?


Dccd, Gin says that the case in question is a job that Rum botched, and the Organization is clearly keen on keeping things tied to the case hidden, such as the Asaca song case and deleting the information about the case that keeps popping up. We don't necessarily need to know the dying message or specific event sequence of the crime scene to know that Rum did it.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » February 18th, 2018, 12:01 am

PhantomWriter wrote:Dccd, Gin says that the case in question is a job that Rum botched, and the Organization is clearly keen on keeping things tied to the case hidden, such as the Asaca song case and deleting the information about the case that keeps popping up. We don't necessarily need to know the dying message or specific event sequence of the crime scene to know that Rum did it.


Well, I think it would be fair enough to consider that there are at least two sides to this fact, one side that wants to keep the truth hidden (the BO in keeping anything tied to them hidden & also Shinichi in keeping the recent news report about him being active and alive hidden) while there is another side that wants to expose and disclose the truth (whoever is posting stuff on the internet about the Kohji case and whoever is posting stuff on the internet about the Shinichi Kudo family). Well, it's natural to assume that the side wanting to keep the truth hidden is the bad guys, but is that really true when applied to the case of Shinichi? So, obviously, there are two sides to every coin, and the two sides do not necessarily remain good or bad since it all just depends on the actual situation.
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