Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 23rd, 2018, 6:47 am

Iori has rum's true description, Rumi has a contrived description. So a better Rum suspect in that way.

Also Iori's first appearance has that tsutomu hat on him, wow now we have Tsutomu+APTX.......
Last edited by Spimer on January 23rd, 2018, 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged double posting
Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » January 23rd, 2018, 7:33 pm

One proves my point, that as Okiya Akai tries to make a different image, quite cautiously.


With Okiya, it's a character we've previously known as some other guy. With Kuroda, it's an entirely new character, so it's not really the same scenario. The context matters here, I'd say.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:For the second, Haibara's smell. There's a bigger reason, Kuroda is a the genuine guy who went into coma.(anyone mimicking his injury to the last detail, wouldn't screw up his hair colour. Waking up from the coma can be timed well enough to make sure the hair dye facade is pulled perfectly.)


Any interpretations about the shady coma stuff is pure speculations and I have nothing to say about it. It can go in 10 different directions whether it's a cover story, or there's a fake Kuroda, or there's only one Kuroda, or a completely made up person, etc. That doesn't really change that Daddy Akai can fit in each one of these scenarios in one way or the other as far as what we currently know.
You didn't exactly need to "solve" how exactly Akai faked his death in order to find enough evidence to conclude that Okiya is Akai, for example. It sure helped, but whether you knew or didn't know how he faked his death, you still reached the correct conclusion.

Putting hands into your pockets really not reflective of your fashion sense


No one really claimed that it was...? It is a visual cue, though. And you can disagree or ignore it, I guess. Your call. (I referred to Kuroda's and Tsutomu's similar fashion sense, as in the clothes. Apologies for not making it clearer)

(I can say Papakai liked a goatee and some facial hairs and short hair, Shuichi likes a clean shaven face and long hairs. See, that's a slippery slope.)


Actually this one's quite a recurring motif for Gosho. All the dads of the main characters have some facial hair (both here and in MK). Shuichi's father is apparently no exception. In fact, a vast amount of his male characters past a certain age have facial hair, so it probably would have been more out of character for Gosho if Tsutomu had no facial hair.
That said, I do encourage you to go back and look at all of Akai's appearances. It's actually really funny once you know it's a thing he does all the time. Then I'd encourage you to go through the two Kuroda cases and see how it's really kinda the same.
And just for the record, I'm not necessarily saying "Shuichi got this habit from his dad". In-universe, that might be true. What I am saying is that this is a visual cue. It's been recurring for Akai, so it'd be quite a smart hint to repeat this visual cue for the guy who is also secretly his father.

Also Tsutomu is shown on the keyhole with his left eye covered. I think that is something


Is this also something, then?
Image

That aside, don't you feel like Kuroda being Tsutomu makes Tsutomu less of a dickhead as far as his family is concerned? If he really was in a coma (not saying he truly totally was, just go with this narrative for a sec), then at least he had a justification why he couldn't be around for when his son got killed, or his wife got targeted, etc. I mean, yeah this family definitely has some deep issues with each other on some level based on how the text reads, but if Tsutomu's just been hanging around being Wakita for the past 17 years doing... whatever it is you think he's been doing, it makes him seem like kind of an asshole, no?
And it also covers this entire weirdness of "how come Tsutomu never met Shuichi in the BO if they've both been infiltrating it". If Tsutomu has been out of commission at the time Shuichi was in the BO, then... that solves that issue.

(given this arc is all about eyes, just like you think tie colour is something remarkable.)


So you do think the clothes are purely coincidental, I take it. (Or at least that's what I managed to infer).

dccd wrote:WTF is wrong with you guys.

Brown suit with a darkblue shirt and a white tie?
I think is doesnt get much more unique then this.
As soon as I saw this at the anime I was really unpleased since it really looked like missed potential.
Now I know why Gosho chose that suitcolour.

Kor just found the first absolutele 100% proof - again P.R.O.O.F. - to Kurodas identity
and noone goes absolutely nuts?
Instead of major recognition he gets a site like this?
Srsly guys...

Goshos statement says absolutely nothing about Tsutomu being in the bo.
With the current status (Kuroda = Tsutomu 100%) and Ais reaction to Kuroda we can be 99,9% sure that he never wasnt.
Stop interpretating things against found facts - and yes these are true facts not someones 125th interpretation.


Meh, it's fine, no worries.

While I'm not gonna say that this is the ultimate solution, I will say that we have enough visual cues and proof to determine that as far as existing characters go, Kuroda is the most likely to be Tsutomu. Maybe in the future a stronger evidence will pop up in favor of some other character and I'll be proven wrong. Until then, though...

If people want to continue believing in other ideas, that's on them, obviously. I am a bit concerned some people are under the assumption that Gosho is playing 4D chess with his readers. If there's anything to be learned from the mystery solutions of the past few years, it's that they are incredibly simple at the end. Like how Shuukichi was obvious (so obvious, I for the longest time wasn't willing to accept he was mid-bro), or like how Mary looks similar to Haibara so that means the two families are related. If this is the kind of "layered" mystery Gosho's willing to go for, then two guys wearing very similar clothes seems like a no-brainer.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Also Iori's first appearance has that tsutomu hat on him, wow now we have Tsutomu+APTX.......


This isn't really new. When "Shinichi Wada" showed up in that case, on the cbox there were a bunch of us who already dreaded that he's APTXed Tsutomu. The idea was let go of after the guy was revealed to be a butler sent by some Kyoto girl to stalk some teenage boy cause she's like totally into him and stuff. Unless of course you think that this is exactly the thing Tsutomu would do for one reason or the other.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 23rd, 2018, 9:23 pm

Kor wrote:
One proves my point, that as Okiya Akai tries to make a different image, quite cautiously.


With Okiya, it's a character we've previously known as some other guy. With Kuroda, it's an entirely new character, so it's not really the same scenario. The context matters here, I'd say.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:For the second, Haibara's smell. There's a bigger reason, Kuroda is a the genuine guy who went into coma.(anyone mimicking his injury to the last detail, wouldn't screw up his hair colour. Waking up from the coma can be timed well enough to make sure the hair dye facade is pulled perfectly.)


Any interpretations about the shady coma stuff is pure speculations and I have nothing to say about it. It can go in 10 different directions whether it's a cover story, or there's a fake Kuroda, or there's only one Kuroda, or a completely made up person, etc. That doesn't really change that Daddy Akai can fit in each one of these scenarios in one way or the other as far as what we currently know.
You didn't exactly need to "solve" how exactly Akai faked his death in order to find enough evidence to conclude that Okiya is Akai, for example. It sure helped, but whether you knew or didn't know how he faked his death, you still reached the correct conclusion.

Putting hands into your pockets really not reflective of your fashion sense


No one really claimed that it was...? It is a visual cue, though. And you can disagree or ignore it, I guess. Your call. (I referred to Kuroda's and Tsutomu's similar fashion sense, as in the clothes. Apologies for not making it clearer)

(I can say Papakai liked a goatee and some facial hairs and short hair, Shuichi likes a clean shaven face and long hairs. See, that's a slippery slope.)


Actually this one's quite a recurring motif for Gosho. All the dads of the main characters have some facial hair (both here and in MK). Shuichi's father is apparently no exception. In fact, a vast amount of his male characters past a certain age have facial hair, so it probably would have been more out of character for Gosho if Tsutomu had no facial hair.
That said, I do encourage you to go back and look at all of Akai's appearances. It's actually really funny once you know it's a thing he does all the time. Then I'd encourage you to go through the two Kuroda cases and see how it's really kinda the same.
And just for the record, I'm not necessarily saying "Shuichi got this habit from his dad". In-universe, that might be true. What I am saying is that this is a visual cue. It's been recurring for Akai, so it'd be quite a smart hint to repeat this visual cue for the guy who is also secretly his father.

Also Tsutomu is shown on the keyhole with his left eye covered. I think that is something


Is this also something, then?
Image

That aside, don't you feel like Kuroda being Tsutomu makes Tsutomu less of a dickhead as far as his family is concerned? If he really was in a coma (not saying he truly totally was, just go with this narrative for a sec), then at least he had a justification why he couldn't be around for when his son got killed, or his wife got targeted, etc. I mean, yeah this family definitely has some deep issues with each other on some level based on how the text reads, but if Tsutomu's just been hanging around being Wakita for the past 17 years doing... whatever it is you think he's been doing, it makes him seem like kind of an asshole, no?
And it also covers this entire weirdness of "how come Tsutomu never met Shuichi in the BO if they've both been infiltrating it". If Tsutomu has been out of commission at the time Shuichi was in the BO, then... that solves that issue.

(given this arc is all about eyes, just like you think tie colour is something remarkable.)


So you do think the clothes are purely coincidental, I take it. (Or at least that's what I managed to infer).

dccd wrote:WTF is wrong with you guys.

Brown suit with a darkblue shirt and a white tie?
I think is doesnt get much more unique then this.
As soon as I saw this at the anime I was really unpleased since it really looked like missed potential.
Now I know why Gosho chose that suitcolour.

Kor just found the first absolutele 100% proof - again P.R.O.O.F. - to Kurodas identity
and noone goes absolutely nuts?
Instead of major recognition he gets a site like this?
Srsly guys...

Goshos statement says absolutely nothing about Tsutomu being in the bo.
With the current status (Kuroda = Tsutomu 100%) and Ais reaction to Kuroda we can be 99,9% sure that he never wasnt.
Stop interpretating things against found facts - and yes these are true facts not someones 125th interpretation.


Meh, it's fine, no worries.

While I'm not gonna say that this is the ultimate solution, I will say that we have enough visual cues and proof to determine that as far as existing characters go, Kuroda is the most likely to be Tsutomu. Maybe in the future a stronger evidence will pop up in favor of some other character and I'll be proven wrong. Until then, though...

If people want to continue believing in other ideas, that's on them, obviously. I am a bit concerned some people are under the assumption that Gosho is playing 4D chess with his readers. If there's anything to be learned from the mystery solutions of the past few years, it's that they are incredibly simple at the end. Like how Shuukichi was obvious (so obvious, I for the longest time wasn't willing to accept he was mid-bro), or like how Mary looks similar to Haibara so that means the two families are related. If this is the kind of "layered" mystery Gosho's willing to go for, then two guys wearing very similar clothes seems like a no-brainer.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Also Iori's first appearance has that tsutomu hat on him, wow now we have Tsutomu+APTX.......


This isn't really new. When "Shinichi Wada" showed up in that case, on the cbox there were a bunch of us who already dreaded that he's APTXed Tsutomu. The idea was let go of after the guy was revealed to be a butler sent by some Kyoto girl to stalk some teenage boy cause she's like totally into him and stuff. Unless of course you think that this is exactly the thing Tsutomu would do for one reason or the other.


Just like Akai being cautious with his Subaru act, don't you think Kuroda (if it's Tsutomu inside) shouldn't be cautious with his Kuroda act.
He'll surely try to avoid that signature move.

It's not how Tsutomu faked his death, it's about whether a Kuroda substitution did happen during the coma or not. That's the only way to make a Kuroda substitution, the other being Tsutomu generated that Kuroda identity 17 years ago. But there's a rule in NPA which only allows exceptional academic achievers to join NPA post 30 years of age. So this identity would be 33 years old back then so wouldn't get the chance to get into NPA(as fabricated academic results would have surely blown right into Tsutomu's face.)
There are other proofs also, as Kuroda as of now failed to notice the shogi bruise and the odd positioning of scissor bruise. So I'll say he's too slow to be Tsutomu(if Tsutomu has brains better than or at least same to Kichi, he would have noticed this anomaly.)

If he's the one who knows horrible people are behind the killing of Kohji and he was the one who fought Rum, he would for sure won't be bothered about Rumi(unless Rumi is Rum, which is quite impossible.)

Now consider a third thing, Tsutomu's silly proverbs are going around in BO. A demon in the darkness isn't really a standard proverb. So two people generating it sounds a bit improbable. So daddy Akai infiltrated BO and has risen to such a position from where his idioms and proverbs are taken seriously.

For a fourth thing, if Kuroda was in Nagano( lighter work) why on Earth he just got transferred to MPD in a whisker? His subordinates mentioned that he was in this sort of a prefecture because he has just risen from Coma and needs lighter workload to shoulder. So why what really had changed to promote/transfer him to MPD Toyko? I think he has a history with Kohji case(Kuroda before going into his coma was related to Kohji case in an intricate way, when the stuff got popped up in the internet NPA thought of sending him to Toyko to investigate this stuff under the radar.)

If you look closely your similar fashion sense argument gets weakened by the choice of carrying their attire, Tsutomu wears stuff in a casual way while kuroda in a formal way. Also there are characters who tend to wear similar clothing, this can't be taken as a sure shot evidence.

Think of scar Akai and real Akai, if real Akai was right handed then what would have happened?

Also, there's another cue, Mary whenever she isn't doing anything while standing keeps her hands crossed. [e.ghttps://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/s ... y-language]
Given the fact that she reveres Tsutomu, it can also be a hint that Tsutomu the man she idolises also keeps that same pose. Wow, we have a character(Wakita) doing the same. If you hands in pockets in clue, then so is hand crossed pose.[TBH mary said the now things will be different as she has taken up Tsutomu's role. That might be hint.]

A stronger clue would be a person who uses silly idioms and proverbs and sometimes uses a patented one, ("I drifted and drifted and then washed up here.")

TBH many people just dis Wakita because he looks ugly with that teeth. Well maybe our inherent bias tilts us to the more good looking Kuroda. Also this arc is all about the eye, so the eye can be a hint also.(unlike the example which you produced, it isn't from this arc, neither of a main character, false equivalence, like you say often as a catchphrase.)

Also it has nothing to make him an asshole. He was a person who would keep his enemies closer than his friends. He's a a more apathetic version of Shuichi.
Stopwatch
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Stopwatch » January 23rd, 2018, 11:23 pm

Just like Akai being cautious with his Subaru act, don't you think Kuroda (if it's Tsutomu inside) shouldn't be cautious with his Kuroda act.
He'll surely try to avoid that signature move.

I mean, part of the reason people figured out Akai was exactly because he didn't really tone down his "signature moves". He still wore a similar style of clothing, was still left-handed, repeated various key phrases ("territory" "don't make that kind of face", over-the-top black org metaphors :V).
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

bash7353 wrote:I kind of always assumed that Haneda's parents might've had names.

Spoiler: Box full of stuff
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dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » January 25th, 2018, 5:17 am

Since I dont want to derail the other thread:

No, not that. Haibara's BO sense cleared Kuroda much early in the arc and despite her sense Haibara is giving Rumi a clean-chit. As of now Haibara is yet to meet Wakita.
So narrative wise Kuroda=No BO, Rumi=good Bo, Wakita=probably Bad BO , narrative-wise Asaka was never Rum, especially after the recent "Carasuma" reveal.
Now if you combine this with other info(Hotta saying Asaka was a woman), Rumi and Kuroda are enemies of each-other, Wakita is investigating Kogoro and Shinichi, it's written in bold letters to pin, Rumi=Asaka, Kuroda=Tsutomu, and Wakita=Rum. That's how it is, narrative wise.


Sorry bro, but I rather have to agree with MeitX.
I think ur biggest mistake is to discout timegaps between certain events.

Kuroda
If Kuroda=Tsutomu narrative-wise, how come noone ever mentioned it?
Afaik not even yourself?

When Haibara met Kuroda for the first time atleast 1-2 months passed by since Kurodas first appearence.
If you look it up here in the forum, tons of people were thinking he is Rum.
Their opinion did not change after he met Ai. Instead they were trying to explain it with
"He lost his bo-aura in the coma/he forget about being bo/Ais aura-detector doesnt work all the time" and such.
Even after Tsutomu was mentioned pretty much noone considered him to be Tsutomu but more likely Rum.

Rumi
Narrative-wise Asaka OBV was =Rum.
Conan said it even on his own in 950-955. Its just beyond ridiculous to deny it.
And again just look at the time passed by between 950-1008.
And how do you think the poll-results came about? Again: About 50% were convinced Rumi=(Asaka)=Rum.
Really noone gave a damn about "Rum has to be male" since this still isnt written in stone.

Wakita
Really noone considered him to be Rum for a very long time
since again Rumi was the Nr.1 for alot of people.
Even Iori was in front of him when he appeared.
It just changed due to the most recent chapter when "Time is money" came about.
He was even considered to be Tsutomu more likely due to his appearence right after the beach case.
So its again ridiculous to present it that way.


Up to the last 2 days I had some hopes that you would bury ur giantic ego
if you was confronted with really obvious "proofs" such as Kor found.
I mean, does anybody really still doubt - except you - that Kuroda = Tsutomu?
This reveal was by far the biggest progress we made in last years. Why?
Because we can finally discout Wakita as Tsutomu.
Means Wakita is obv someone else and there arent many gaps to fill left.

So atleast from my point of view Wakita is a bo-member or Rum himself.
Does anybody disagree?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » January 25th, 2018, 5:44 am

dccd wrote:Kuroda
If Kuroda=Tsutomu narrative-wise, how come noone ever mentioned it?
Afaik not even yourself?

When Haibara met Kuroda for the first time atleast 1-2 months passed by since Kurodas first appearence.
If you look it up here in the forum, tons of people were thinking he is Rum.
Their opinion did not change after he met Ai. Instead they were trying to explain it with
"He lost his bo-aura in the coma/he forget about being bo/Ais aura-detector doesnt work all the time" and such.
Even after Tsutomu was mentioned pretty much noone considered him to be Tsutomu but more likely Rum.


Yeah I also have to wonder how exactly the "narrative tries to put in our mind" that Kuroda is Tsutomu. So far the only thing we got was that his body wasn't found thus he might be alive, but at no point did the text blatantly try to make us think "this Kuroda guy sure could be this Tsutomu guy".

dccd wrote:Up to the last 2 days I had some hopes that you would bury ur giantic ego


I have to ask to lower the flames a bit. At the end of the day it's just discussing mysteries in some manga.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 25th, 2018, 11:24 am

dccd wrote:Since I dont want to derail the other thread:

No, not that. Haibara's BO sense cleared Kuroda much early in the arc and despite her sense Haibara is giving Rumi a clean-chit. As of now Haibara is yet to meet Wakita.
So narrative wise Kuroda=No BO, Rumi=good Bo, Wakita=probably Bad BO , narrative-wise Asaka was never Rum, especially after the recent "Carasuma" reveal.
Now if you combine this with other info(Hotta saying Asaka was a woman), Rumi and Kuroda are enemies of each-other, Wakita is investigating Kogoro and Shinichi, it's written in bold letters to pin, Rumi=Asaka, Kuroda=Tsutomu, and Wakita=Rum. That's how it is, narrative wise.


Sorry bro, but I rather have to agree with MeitX.
I think ur biggest mistake is to discout timegaps between certain events.

Kuroda
If Kuroda=Tsutomu narrative-wise, how come noone ever mentioned it?
Afaik not even yourself?

When Haibara met Kuroda for the first time atleast 1-2 months passed by since Kurodas first appearence.
If you look it up here in the forum, tons of people were thinking he is Rum.
Their opinion did not change after he met Ai. Instead they were trying to explain it with
"He lost his bo-aura in the coma/he forget about being bo/Ais aura-detector doesnt work all the time" and such.
Even after Tsutomu was mentioned pretty much noone considered him to be Tsutomu but more likely Rum.

Rumi
Narrative-wise Asaka OBV was =Rum.
Conan said it even on his own in 950-955. Its just beyond ridiculous to deny it.
And again just look at the time passed by between 950-1008.
And how do you think the poll-results came about? Again: About 50% were convinced Rumi=(Asaka)=Rum.
Really noone gave a damn about "Rum has to be male" since this still isnt written in stone.

Wakita
Really noone considered him to be Rum for a very long time
since again Rumi was the Nr.1 for alot of people.
Even Iori was in front of him when he appeared.
It just changed due to the most recent chapter when "Time is money" came about.
He was even considered to be Tsutomu more likely due to his appearence right after the beach case.
So its again ridiculous to present it that way.


Up to the last 2 days I had some hopes that you would bury ur giantic ego
if you was confronted with really obvious "proofs" such as Kor found.
I mean, does anybody really still doubt - except you - that Kuroda = Tsutomu?
This reveal was by far the biggest progress we made in last years. Why?
Because we can finally discout Wakita as Tsutomu.
Means Wakita is obv someone else and there arent many gaps to fill left.

So atleast from my point of view Wakita is a bo-member or Rum himself.
Does anybody disagree?


According to the current narrative, Tsutomu is missing, Kuroda has somewhat woken up from a suspicious coma, is adept in hand to hand combat just like Tsutomu and lacks BO Aura but shows interest in Kohji case.(So how he's not Tsutomu narrative wise?)

Asaka wasn't Rum narrative wise. It's ridiculous to think what main characters think is narrative.(there were severe inconsistencies like how Haneda knew of Rum's codename? why he didn't write only Asaka? and the main character didn't have the information that it was Rum who killed Kohji not Asaka.) By the narrative it was already ensure that Kohji's murder was not the original mission and Haneda had hardly any chance to know Rum's codename.

Again what people think is not narrative, what the author is implying is narrative, Gosho never showed that Rumi is having a prosthetic eye or Ruum is a woman.(Rum is a man, the codename and three descriptions, if that's not narrative what it is.)

Wakita is surely the Rum by narrative(He gets introduced with heavy Rum hint and Haibara doesn't get to see him. Much like Bourbon, what else one does need.)

Again I'm not an egoistical person but I don't egoistically proclaim that Sakurako is Rum because she like black tea.

Now I don't think Kuroda is Tsutomu, as Kor's proof is false equivalence. If Tsutomu had the same habit of putting his hands in the pocket, then it would have had made sense. As we know nothing of tsutomu, I think that's jumping the gun. Tough we know Tsutomu's love for idioms and proverbs, at least Wakita scores a point there. Gosho also hints that the relationship between Papakai and Gin is a secret. Here also Wakita scores one over Kuroda. Lastly, if Papakai really is as smart and as mindful as Shukichi, he would have noticed the missing Shogi piece, would know/had fought the real Rum and won't chase after Rumi. Probably would smartly avoid Rumi as a trap set up by Rum.

Does this mean Wakita is Tsutomu? It doesn't but these pointers are good enough to suggest that Kuroda is not tsutomu or if Kuroda is Tsutomu the Tsutomu has a very negligible presence/role in Kohji case. The second thing is very unlikely, so I'm going with the first. Unless I find some evidence of papakai putting his hands in his pocket, reached Kohji's room after everything was done and dusted and Sera overestimated his intelligence then I'll surely tilt towards Kuroda.
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » January 25th, 2018, 1:15 pm

Funny, because I pretty much disagree with every single sentence.

To make it short just answer those 2 questions:

1) How come youve didnt mentioned even once that Kuroda=Tsutomu narrative-wise in the last 9 months?
Obv before this week.

2) Do you think its a coincidence that only two characters in the whole dc-universe
are wearing a brown jacket/suit, a darkblue shirt and a white tie?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 25th, 2018, 1:23 pm

dccd wrote:Funny, because I pretty much disagree with every single sentence.

To make it short just answer those 2 questions:

1) How come youve didnt mentioned even once that Kuroda=Tsutomu narrative-wise in the last 9 months?
Obv before this week.

2) Do you think its a coincidence that only two characters in the whole dc-universe
are wearing a brown jacket/suit, a darkblue shirt and a white tie?



I wasn't on this forum 9 months back. But as a reader back then I knew narrative wise Kuroda was Tsutomu.

Are you sure that these two are the only two such persons? Even if that's the case let's say Akai and Gin both are left handed, so they are brothers. It's that sort of a similarity analysis.

If you're so persistent on keyhole character info then let me ask you this, (This Rum arc is all about characters with supposed one/single eye) now Tsutomu was shown without his left eye. So out of all Rum suspects, the one shown with a hidden left eye why shouldn't be Tsutomu according to the same reasoning?
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » January 25th, 2018, 1:41 pm

1) Oh ok, cool.

2) Not sure if thats a full yes or no to my question.
But yeah: They´re the only ones who are wearing white ties in the manga so far.

So if you mean - There are 2 "hidden" (left) eyes left: Tsutomus and Wakitas - then you really got a point.
I know you wont be satisfied with my answer but I still think that the colour-combo-with the white tie is just way more convincing
due to the fact that this isnt an everyday colour-combo.
Believe me: If you would be the one that wouldve brought this hint up, I would be on ur side aswell.

Just to make it sure: Your still into Chikara=Rum, right?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 285

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 25th, 2018, 2:03 pm

To further the colour analysis, the colour of the suit is a mismatch,(Tsutomu=Steel Gray, Kuroda=Brown), shirt colour is similar( though Tsutomu's is more Bluish, while Kuroda's is blackish.), Tie colour is white in both the cases.

Both Yuminaga and Otaki has same suit colour(Green) and Shirt colour(White) does it mean anything? Andre camel and Mouri Kogoro is wearing Blue tie in the keyholes, (Now connect the dots.)

On Chikara, he's the only one who could have attacked Kohji without raising any suspicion, whose presence would mean that there was a shogi board nearby(probably he wanted to distract haneda by offering a game to the latter), who could have been uniquely named by Kohji and who despite his strength wouldn't be good enough to finish Kohji in one shot, unlike Iori.
MeiTanteixX
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » January 25th, 2018, 3:45 pm

dccd wrote:if you was confronted with really obvious "proofs" such as Kor found... This reveal was by far the biggest progress we made in last years....
...Does anybody disagree?
I find it funny how the shirt and tie similarity was just recently discovered here.
Can't agree with you that this is some serious progress or as irrefutable as you are making it out to be, but ofc, as mentioned by Kor, it's very likely to be a visual cue, a low-key indicator of their similarity/connection.

I don't personally disagree with you on the rest though. To me at least, it got pretty obvious by the tent case (File 987-989), when Kuroda not only showed serious interest in the Kohji case (which Tsutomu was obviously involved in), but also had his memorization of the case suspects emphasized (paralleling Tsutomu's second son during ripples/File 973) as well as his physical skills (paralleling Tsutomu's first son during ripples/File 972).

Zerozaki4869 wrote:According to the current narrative, Tsutomu is missing, Kuroda has somewhat woken up from a suspicious coma, is adept in hand to hand combat just like Tsutomu and lacks BO Aura but shows interest in Kohji case.(So how he's not Tsutomu narrative wise?)
I don't think you are understanding the "narrative" we are talking about. By "narrative", we are referring to what the story, as in the outer layer of the story, has been implying. This mostly involves the characters' straightforward comments, speculations or reactions, as well as the author's very obvious structuring of events/panels that usually, if taken face-value, gives a misleading implication.

Things like "is adept in hand to hand combat just like Tsutomu" or "lacks BO Aura but shows interest in Kohji case => Tsutomu" are fan speculations, not a part of Gosho's narrative, since he never even placed Kuroda and Tsutomu in the same context, story-wise.
To make my points clear regarding your suggestions:
- Kuroda's fighting skills were never compared or even remotely emphasized in relation to Tsutomu's in the story. => Not a part of the narrative.
- Tsutomu's fighting skills were never brought up in the story => Not a part of the narrative.
- Tsutomu was never said to be somehow connected to a coma, nor was he brought up in relation to Kuroda's coma => Not a part of the narrative.
- Tsutomu was never revealed to have been BO-scent-free, nor was he ever brought up in the context of Kuroda's lack of scent => Not a part of the narrative.
- Tsutomu was again never brought up or highlighted in the context of Kuroda's interest to the Kohji case => Not a part of the narrative.
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dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » January 25th, 2018, 10:25 pm

Well written, MeitX.

On the shogi board:
Couldnt it be there simply because Kohji is a shogi player?

On the colours:
Well, I guess thats what I would call "taking it too far" since atleast to me theyre more or less likely pretty much the same.
But remember? I had eye issues with the 1mm-finger-difference-hint you brought up aswell ;)

Atleast we agree on the most important aspect: The tie is white.
Why is this so outstanding? Because a white tie isnt worn in everydays life.
You´ve mostly see it on weddings but super rarely as someones standard-pick.
Im excited to see how you gonna respond to this :D ;)

Not that its necessary, but funny once you see it:

HyoueKuroda = 11 letters / 6 vocals / 5 consonants
TsutomuAkai = 11 letters / 6 vocals / 5 consonants
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 285

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 25th, 2018, 10:37 pm

MeiTanteixX wrote:
dccd wrote:if you was confronted with really obvious "proofs" such as Kor found... This reveal was by far the biggest progress we made in last years....
...Does anybody disagree?
I find it funny how the shirt and tie similarity was just recently discovered here.
Can't agree with you that this is some serious progress or as irrefutable as you are making it out to be, but ofc, as mentioned by Kor, it's very likely to be a visual cue, a low-key indicator of their similarity/connection.

I don't personally disagree with you on the rest though. To me at least, it got pretty obvious by the tent case (File 987-989), when Kuroda not only showed serious interest in the Kohji case (which Tsutomu was obviously involved in), but also had his memorization of the case suspects emphasized (paralleling Tsutomu's second son during ripples/File 973) as well as his physical skills (paralleling Tsutomu's first son during ripples/File 972).

Zerozaki4869 wrote:According to the current narrative, Tsutomu is missing, Kuroda has somewhat woken up from a suspicious coma, is adept in hand to hand combat just like Tsutomu and lacks BO Aura but shows interest in Kohji case.(So how he's not Tsutomu narrative wise?)
I don't think you are understanding the "narrative" we are talking about. By "narrative", we are referring to what the story, as in the outer layer of the story, has been implying. This mostly involves the characters' straightforward comments, speculations or reactions, as well as the author's very obvious structuring of events/panels that usually, if taken face-value, gives a misleading implication.

Things like "is adept in hand to hand combat just like Tsutomu" or "lacks BO Aura but shows interest in Kohji case => Tsutomu" are fan speculations, not a part of Gosho's narrative, since he never even placed Kuroda and Tsutomu in the same context, story-wise.
To make my points clear regarding your suggestions:
- Kuroda's fighting skills were never compared or even remotely emphasized in relation to Tsutomu's in the story. => Not a part of the narrative.
- Tsutomu's fighting skills were never brought up in the story => Not a part of the narrative.
- Tsutomu was never said to be somehow connected to a coma, nor was he brought up in relation to Kuroda's coma => Not a part of the narrative.
- Tsutomu was never revealed to have been BO-scent-free, nor was he ever brought up in the context of Kuroda's lack of scent => Not a part of the narrative.
- Tsutomu was again never brought up or highlighted in the context of Kuroda's interest to the Kohji case => Not a part of the narrative.


But the same things which you deny as part of the narrative fits well on Tsutomu. So as long as someone in Manga doesn't grasp the similarity Tsutomu=Kuroda is not narrative. Fine, point taken. But the current narrative is framing Tsutomu as Kuroda, though nobody inside manga is getting it, in my prespective. just like the stuff in Kohji's hand and his scissors holding grip was part of the narrative, but in Manga nobody cares about it.
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 285

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 25th, 2018, 10:50 pm

dccd wrote:Well written, MeitX.

On the shogi board:
Couldnt it be there simply because Kohji is a shogi player?

On the colours:
Well, I guess thats what I would call "taking it too far" since atleast to me theyre more or less likely pretty much the same.
But remember? I had eye issues with the 1mm-finger-difference-hint you brought up aswell ;)

Atleast we agree on the most important aspect: The tie is white.
Why is this so outstanding? Because a white tie isnt worn in everydays life.
You´ve mostly see it on weddings but super rarely as someones standard-pick.
Im excited to see how you gonna respond to this :D ;)

Not that its necessary, but funny once you see it:

HyoueKuroda = 11 letters / 6 vocals / 5 consonants
TsutomuAkai = 11 letters / 6 vocals / 5 consonants


Kohji was participating in a chess tournament which he played as a hobby. Why would he be practising Shogi just before the day of his chess tournament?(Only if somebody, whom he's somewhat friendly with, suggests a game of quick shogi.)

Kansuke wears black tie over a white shirt, Kuroda does the reverse. I would say It's the colour of the shirt which indicates the tie colour as they are to be complementary. If you think the two colours are matching then why don't you use an online colour identification tool to see if they are close enough for an acceptable match. I never knew you're also colourblind.

Remember Shinichi's first case also Ayanokoji from the recent case(Tengu case).(Shinichu appeared in a white bow-tie, while Ayanokoji appeared with Matching suit, shirt and necktie(white)). (So white as a bow-tie/neck-tie choice isn't Tsutomu specific choice. If you scan the the whole 1000 chapters you might find other characters with similar choice.)

Also Japanese people don't read the manga in everything written in Romaji, so that's something I think is of pure coincidence. Wakita's name has the Kanji of rice-field in it, so does Kuroda's name and Haneda's name. Does it mean that Haneda is a distant relative of Kuroda and Wakita??

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