Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » December 2nd, 2017, 8:36 pm

Zerozaki, the reason I don't necessarily see drinks as that is because it's not a consistent hint. Jodie's main target was Vermouth, not Sherry, because Vermouth is the one who killed her dad and Vermouth doesn't age. Shuichi as Subaru and his drinking bourbon is probably where it makes sense as a hint, but that was because it was established that Akai liked to drink whiskey, especially bourbon. It isn't necessarily him drinking it because he's dealing with Bourbon.

Meanwhile, while Kuroda likes black tea, so does Sakurako. The reason the Nagano police comment on it is because it's unexpected- he's this imposing, intimidating man who's missing an eye and has a burn across his face. He looks like a badass and he looks scary. But he doesn't drink coffee, which is apparently the norm in their department. Instead, he drinks tea, and black tea tends to be weaker in terms of caffeine content (47 mg) than coffee (95 mg) and has a less harsh taste.

The reason I'm so hesitant about theorizing about Wakita is because there's too much ambiguity and not enough information about him. We get him for one case, aside from a few panels in others. Some of his stuff, like his strangely squatting/hiding his height, and his metaphors reminding me of the ocean, could be argued either way. Rum is associated with the ocean (pirates drinking rum and the tropics), but many of Masumi's cases have a distinct ocean/sea motif or relate to water. Hiding his height could apply to either- in the case of Rum, it makes him less imposing-looking. In the case of Tsutomu, having a notable height difference makes him stand out and the Organization may know that. His dialogue about Pirate's Spirit could be a hint about rum (and Conan attempting to explain rum to Haibara is phrased as the alcohol pirates drank), but it could either be to see if Kogoro reacts to hints of alcohol like that (if Rum), or stating without directly spelling out his antipathy toward Rum (if Tsutomu).
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 3rd, 2017, 12:17 am

Similarly I can argue, Kuroda's target is Rum, not Tsutomu. Akai's favourite was Scotch but now he has switched to Bourbon. See the beginning of Rum arc.

On Wakita I'll give you two insights about him, during the Wakasa's neighbour case, he was seen reading a newspaper and using the word Tonchi meaning quick-witted but "Tonchi" is an Poetic/Archaic word, the way of using apt idioms,( Carp on a cutting board), we don't know much about Rum and then we see, Tsutomu being remembered for using such idioms. Also Gin and Mary use the same idiom, (Encountering a demon in darkness.) In the beach case/Akai family meeting Shinichi case Shukichi tells Mary that she's talking like dad, when she uses such an idiom. Thus it can be argued that the link between Gin and Mary's usage of same idiom can be Tsutomu/Wakita(spy/mole in BO).

Given the fact Wakita was eager to show Conan his injured eye, proves that he's not Rum. Rum won't go around and start flashing his distinguishing feature to the most renowned detective(supposed) of Japan aka Mouri Kogoro in such a non-chalant manner.
Absenta
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Absenta » December 3rd, 2017, 9:21 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Similarly I can argue, Kuroda's target is Rum, not Tsutomu. Akai's favourite was Scotch but now he has switched to Bourbon. See the beginning of Rum arc.

On Wakita I'll give you two insights about him, during the Wakasa's neighbour case, he was seen reading a newspaper and using the word Tonchi meaning quick-witted but "Tonchi" is an Poetic/Archaic word, the way of using apt idioms,( Carp on a cutting board), we don't know much about Rum and then we see, Tsutomu being remembered for using such idioms. Also Gin and Mary use the same idiom, (Encountering a demon in darkness.) In the beach case/Akai family meeting Shinichi case Shukichi tells Mary that she's talking like dad, when she uses such an idiom. Thus it can be argued that the link between Gin and Mary's usage of same idiom can be Tsutomu/Wakita(spy/mole in BO).

Given the fact Wakita was eager to show Conan his injured eye, proves that he's not Rum. Rum won't go around and start flashing his distinguishing feature to the most renowned detective(supposed) of Japan aka Mouri Kogoro in such a non-chalant manner.



It could be. I don´t discard Wakita being Tsutomu and chasing Rum. But I don´t like the fact of so many people infiltrated in BO. It´s just not serious for a criminal organization. Puts Rum in a really foolish position. I´d rather like more BO people infiltrated in the police, CIA, etc..

Wakita has a hatred towards Rum, he could be Tsutomu indeed. Wakita appears in the immediate next file after Papakai first apparition.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Uchiha Shadow » December 3rd, 2017, 9:29 am

Do you guys think the Rum arc will end once his/her identity is revealed like the Vermouth arc, or will it continue for maybe another Clash of Red and Black like how the Bourbon arc was?
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » December 3rd, 2017, 12:50 pm

Uchiha Shadow wrote:Do you guys think the Rum arc will end once his/her identity is revealed like the Vermouth arc, or will it continue for maybe another Clash of Red and Black like how the Bourbon arc was?
I personally think Rum's identity is just part 1 of Rum arc (as in, the first hurdle we are going through before going through his actual mission that Kir was trying to warn us about at the start).

PhantomWriter wrote:I have no idea what the significance of this is at the moment, but I'd been looking through Kuroda's and Wakita's appearances when I noticed something.

Wakita's bending his legs and stooping, especially throughout the first chapter, where it would be easiest to get his height.
Apparently, it's a habit for boxers to put their shoulders up and chin down... Him being a boxer could be the reason for his consistently-off posture.
(Makes sense, considering that his design is based on a boxing coach)
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Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Uchiha Shadow » December 3rd, 2017, 1:17 pm

MeiTanteixX wrote:
Uchiha Shadow wrote:Do you guys think the Rum arc will end once his/her identity is revealed like the Vermouth arc, or will it continue for maybe another Clash of Red and Black like how the Bourbon arc was?
I personally think Rum's identity is just part 1 of Rum arc (as in, the first hurdle we are going through before going through his actual mission that Kir was trying to warn us about at the start).

Fully agreed, considering he's the second in command, I'm expecting him to do a lot of crazy stuff later on.

MeiTanteixX wrote:(Makes sense, considering that his design is based on a boxing coach)

The best one.
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 3rd, 2017, 9:45 pm

Just like boxers, JKD artists also use the similar pose as most of the stance stuff in JKD is influenced by Boxing.
Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » December 4th, 2017, 1:44 am

Uchiha Shadow wrote:Do you guys think the Rum arc will end once his/her identity is revealed like the Vermouth arc, or will it continue for maybe another Clash of Red and Black like how the Bourbon arc was?


I certainly hope the arc doesn't go on beyond the revelation of his identity. That "post-reveal" shtick with the Bourbon stuff made an arc that was already unnecessarily long even longer, and the only two mystery foundations for that post-reveal stuff were that:
1. Okiya was still not super officially revealed to be Akai (even though that was obvious after Mystery Train even for people who never weren't in on the theory)
2. Bourbon's actually a spy (which was an underwhelming revelation that made the entire thing even worse in retrospect)

We're a bit over 100 chapters into this Rum stuff, and so far Rum's an incredibly unappealing villain. We should know what he's about BEFORE the revelation of his identity, not focus on it afterwards, cause otherwise why should we even care? He could be some dude who played shogi against Shuukichi twice or he could be a sushi chef, etc. So far it doesn't matter.

I'm also concerned how most of what we're getting so far isn't about who is Rum, but about a bunch of people who AREN'T Rum, yet each of them carries their own mystery and/or connection that needs to be solved. Rum is only one person out of 3-4 suspects. While the same also applies to Okiya and Jodie (IE suspicious characters in the arc who didn't turn out to be the BO members), at least that was with only one character (besides like 50 chapters in which Sera was technically a suspect).
Moreover, if none of the 3 main suspects aren't Rum, then we'll probably end with yet 1-2 more redundant characters who may or may not become a part of the ever growing list of allies or "good guys fighting against the org".
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Uchiha Shadow » December 4th, 2017, 4:01 am

Kor wrote:
Uchiha Shadow wrote:Do you guys think the Rum arc will end once his/her identity is revealed like the Vermouth arc, or will it continue for maybe another Clash of Red and Black like how the Bourbon arc was?


I certainly hope the arc doesn't go on beyond the revelation of his identity. That "post-reveal" shtick with the Bourbon stuff made an arc that was already unnecessarily long even longer, and the only two mystery foundations for that post-reveal stuff were that:
1. Okiya was still not super officially revealed to be Akai (even though that was obvious after Mystery Train even for people who never weren't in on the theory)
2. Bourbon's actually a spy (which was an underwhelming revelation that made the entire thing even worse in retrospect)

We're a bit over 100 chapters into this Rum stuff, and so far Rum's an incredibly unappealing villain. We should know what he's about BEFORE the revelation of his identity, not focus on it afterwards, cause otherwise why should we even care? He could be some dude who played shogi against Shuukichi twice or he could be a sushi chef, etc. So far it doesn't matter.

I'm also concerned how most of what we're getting so far isn't about who is Rum, but about a bunch of people who AREN'T Rum, yet each of them carries their own mystery and/or connection that needs to be solved. Rum is only one person out of 3-4 suspects. While the same also applies to Okiya and Jodie (IE suspicious characters in the arc who didn't turn out to be the BO members), at least that was with only one character (besides like 50 chapters in which Sera was technically a suspect).
Moreover, if none of the 3 main suspects aren't Rum, then we'll probably end with yet 1-2 more redundant characters who may or may not become a part of the ever growing list of allies or "good guys fighting against the org".

Even though I agree with what you're saying, at this point I think we all know which direction Gosho's most likely going with.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » December 4th, 2017, 9:14 am

Uchiha Shadow wrote:...at this point I think we all know which direction Gosho's most likely going with.


If Gosho's going to keep going in this direction... then what? What are his chances of turning the arc around?
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Uchiha Shadow » December 4th, 2017, 11:17 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Uchiha Shadow wrote:...at this point I think we all know which direction Gosho's most likely going with.


If Gosho's going to keep going in this direction... then what? What are his chances of turning the arc around?

I don't know, but I really hope there is a big twist in this arc that none of us could've expected, would be cool if there is another enemy that isn't Rum, there are too many allies right now, I was rewatching some old episodes recently and wondered why there was a sense of danger back then, but now it's gone completely, and it's because back then we didn't have the FBI, CIA and Amuro's organization as allies, it felt like everyone was an enemy or shouldn't be trusted, so it would be cool if Gosho can use this to his advantage now, I'm not expecting it though. At the least I hope that we get to learn some actual big information on the organization after Rum is revealed, old mysteries need to be brought up again.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » December 4th, 2017, 1:00 pm

Uchiha Shadow wrote:I don't know, but I really hope there is a big twist in this arc that none of us could've expected,


To be fair to Gosho, when you're in a forum discussing the possibilities of the series, the level of surprise you'd experience from whatever occurs is likely to decrease. For example, if Katsumata turns out to be Rum, even if that's something you've never considered yourself, you already read a bunch of people suggesting this very possibility. Every possible solution about any of the characters has likely been suggested, thus somewhat "preparing" you mentally for whatever outcome.
On the other hand, Gosho has also become more obvious and started to partake in this "mental preparation" too. I don't know whether you figured out the Vermouth mystery before it was revealed (I certainly didn't), but I don't recall a moment in the manga that screamed at you outright "VERMOUTH IS EITHER JODIE OR ARAIDE". Instead, the manga was fully committed in wanting you to suspect Jodie until almost the very end (this is at least as far as I recall. If someone thinks I'm wrong in this analysis feel free to say so). But then later with Bourbon, for whatever reason, Gosho decides to gather the three suspects and scream at you "BOURBON IS ONE OF THESE THREE PEOPLE", so even if you've never considered Amuro to be a possible Bourbon candidate, or even if you've mistakenly decided that Okiya is Bourbon, when the answer's revealed, the "surprise factor" is still lower because you were mentally prepared for this outcome.
The same can be said about the revelation Bourbon's actually an ally. This is a thought that Conan himself thought, so when it's revealed, it's not such a surprising moment cause Gosho mentally prepared you for this outcome by outright telling you that this is a possible outcome (rather than the reader figuring it out on their own). Not to say there wasn't a "shock factor" in this specific reveal, the shock that we basically spent almost a third of the manga (at the time) about some BO member who turned out to be another goddamn spy :-X

Uchiha Shadow wrote:there are too many allies right now, I was rewatching some old episodes recently and wondered why there was a sense of danger back then, but now it's gone completely, and it's because back then we didn't have the FBI, CIA and Amuro's organization as allies, it felt like everyone was an enemy or shouldn't be trusted, so it would be cool if Gosho can use this to his advantage now, I'm not expecting it though. At the least I hope that we get to learn some actual big information on the organization after Rum is revealed, old mysteries need to be brought up again.


Agreed.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Uchiha Shadow » December 4th, 2017, 1:45 pm

Kor wrote:
Uchiha Shadow wrote:I don't know, but I really hope there is a big twist in this arc that none of us could've expected,


To be fair to Gosho, when you're in a forum discussing the possibilities of the series, the level of surprise you'd experience from whatever occurs is likely to decrease. For example, if Katsumata turns out to be Rum, even if that's something you've never considered yourself, you already read a bunch of people suggesting this very possibility. Every possible solution about any of the characters has likely been suggested, thus somewhat "preparing" you mentally for whatever outcome.
On the other hand, Gosho has also become more obvious and started to partake in this "mental preparation" too. I don't know whether you figured out the Vermouth mystery before it was revealed (I certainly didn't), but I don't recall a moment in the manga that screamed at you outright "VERMOUTH IS EITHER JODIE OR ARAIDE". Instead, the manga was fully committed in wanting you to suspect Jodie until almost the very end (this is at least as far as I recall. If someone thinks I'm wrong in this analysis feel free to say so). But then later with Bourbon, for whatever reason, Gosho decides to gather the three suspects and scream at you "BOURBON IS ONE OF THESE THREE PEOPLE", so even if you've never considered Amuro to be a possible Bourbon candidate, or even if you've mistakenly decided that Okiya is Bourbon, when the answer's revealed, the "surprise factor" is still lower because you were mentally prepared for this outcome.
The same can be said about the revelation Bourbon's actually an ally. This is a thought that Conan himself thought, so when it's revealed, it's not such a surprising moment cause Gosho mentally prepared you for this outcome by outright telling you that this is a possible outcome (rather than the reader figuring it out on their own). Not to say there wasn't a "shock factor" in this specific reveal, the shock that we basically spent almost a third of the manga (at the time) about some BO member who turned out to be another goddamn spy :-X

Couldn't have said it any better. In the Vermouth arc the Araide reveal was subtle as hell, no way I would've ever thought of him as being Vermouth, same thing with the Serial Killer, Sharon and Chris all being the same person. And about Amuro being a spy, whenever I rewatch that scene with Conan asking Amuro if he's the "enemy of the bad guys" and Amuro tells him that he's misunderstanding something about him, I think about how badass it would've been if Conan really was mistaken, and Amuro was trying to lure him into a trap.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » December 4th, 2017, 2:37 pm

@Zero
Since I dont want to derail your thread:
Which kid-case features the 2d:4d-ratio-hint ?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby kkuuddoo » December 4th, 2017, 3:15 pm

Uchiha Shadow wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Uchiha Shadow wrote:...at this point I think we all know which direction Gosho's most likely going with.


If Gosho's going to keep going in this direction... then what? What are his chances of turning the arc around?

I don't know, but I really hope there is a big twist in this arc that none of us could've expected, would be cool if there is another enemy that isn't Rum, there are too many allies right now, I was rewatching some old episodes recently and wondered why there was a sense of danger back then, but now it's gone completely, and it's because back then we didn't have the FBI, CIA and Amuro's organization as allies, it felt like everyone was an enemy or shouldn't be trusted, so it would be cool if Gosho can use this to his advantage now, I'm not expecting it though. At the least I hope that we get to learn some actual big information on the organization after Rum is revealed, old mysteries need to be brought up again.


Honestly, as much as I think of it, although we have a lot of spies with is sometimes upsetting, yet believe it or Not the BO is still the BO and even with all those spies in the BO, it's still existing, and still a powerful evil. All those spies aren't really doing much to destroy it, maybe there waiting for the perfect person to help them ( Conan aka Shinichi ). Despite that I do understand that spies are meant to join this group and get information about the BO, but none of the information they have to this day is enough to actually take the BO down, or at least that's what I think.

I do agree that we have too many allies on Conan's side, and we need to the BO to return to its evil glory, however the numbers of allies are indeed outtalking the BO with a few Bo member dead and vermouth being in the grey area working with the BO but hoping her silver bullet will take them down. The BO has no chance in a real fight is what I fear the most. I hope that Gosho will balance the evil and the good, for a chance of a real fight between good and evil.
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