Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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KaitoRizu

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by KaitoRizu »

@MeiTanteixX
A prosthetic eye is capable of movement, it can move but it would be a bit slower than a real eye and that's slightly hard to notice but it's still noticeable if you carefully observe the movement...

As for Rumi, all we know is that she "can't see with her right eye"... this doesn't confirm that she has a prosthetic eye, she could have a very bad eye sight or is blind in that eye (with the eye being her real eye).
Thanks for the SS Kamite! ;D
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jimmy_kud0_tv2

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by jimmy_kud0_tv2 »

alphajjc wrote: Remember he ordered "tea" ?

Gunfire (or Gun-fire) is a British cocktail made of black tea and rum. It has its origins in the British Army and is also used as a name for early morning tea in the army.

Black tea, you say.....hmmm

two other characters drink Black tea as well.
I hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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DCUniverseAficionado
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

Serinox wrote:Mh, not sure about this. Ofc, I never disregarded him as impossible just because he is currently in the Heiji subplot, because he is a manga character, but so far, except for "It's not impossible", I don't much reason to have him high on the Rum suspect list.
He's "high" on my list because I consider it less probable that many of his fellow suspects (Mary, Sakurako, Rumi, Kiyonaga, Tsutomu, Kanenori, Hyoue) will to turn out be Rum instead of him—it's not him, it's them.
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Serinox

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Serinox »

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Serinox wrote:Mh, not sure about this. Ofc, I never disregarded him as impossible just because he is currently in the Heiji subplot, because he is a manga character, but so far, except for "It's not impossible", I don't much reason to have him high on the Rum suspect list.
He's "high" on my list because I consider it less probable that many of his fellow suspects (Mary, Sakurako, Rumi, Kiyonaga, Tsutomu, Kanenori, Hyoue) will to turn out be Rum instead of him—it's not him, it's them.
I might as well, if there wasn't the age issue, that also still keeps me from really believing in Sakurako. How can a 13 year old Muga be a codenamed member deployed in a field operation with the goal to kill a person, setting aside highly unlikely scenarios like him being a child soldier or something like that (shrinking is not an option, since it is not known to the BO and Vermouth is actively keeping that fact from them, including the Boss). Kuroda and Wakita seem more likely from the age alone.
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PhantomWriter
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by PhantomWriter »

Serinox wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Serinox wrote:Mh, not sure about this. Ofc, I never disregarded him as impossible just because he is currently in the Heiji subplot, because he is a manga character, but so far, except for "It's not impossible", I don't much reason to have him high on the Rum suspect list.
He's "high" on my list because I consider it less probable that many of his fellow suspects (Mary, Sakurako, Rumi, Kiyonaga, Tsutomu, Kanenori, Hyoue) will to turn out be Rum instead of him—it's not him, it's them.
I might as well, if there wasn't the age issue, that also still keeps me from really believing in Sakurako. How can a 13 year old Muga be a codenamed member deployed in a field operation with the goal to kill a person, setting aside highly unlikely scenarios like him being a child soldier or something like that (shrinking is not an option, since it is not known to the BO and Vermouth is actively keeping that fact from them, including the Boss). Kuroda and Wakita seem more likely from the age alone.
Yeah, several of the suspects flat out don't work as being Rum with what we now know (Mary) or are stretching things (Sakurako). Kiyonaga would be breaking new ground for Aoyama's handling of suspects, assuming he was supposed to be an intentional suspect. (Gosho, if I recall, outright said Yamato wasn't Rum because so many people thought he was due to the three descriptions, but it was likely unintended). In the Vermouth arc, Chris appeared only a bit before that arc. In the Bourbon Arc, Rei appeared later into it. However, they were both introduced at or near their respective arcs. Kiyonaga was introduced very early in the series and his appearances have been exceedingly sporadic.

Hyoue and Rumi are the more obvious suspects at present, but that's happened before with Gosho and them turning not to be truly part of the Organization. In the Vermouth arc, Shuichi draws parallels to Gin and Jodie uses the phrase Vermouth used on her. During the Clash, Camel's actions come across as suspicious until he and Shuichi reveal what happened after the fact. In the Bourbon arc, Subaru and Masumi are both red herrings, the former setting off Ai's Organization sense and the latter's strange comments about how it's easier to delete data than people when speaking of Ai.

In this arc, Hyoue, Rumi, and Mary all have aspects of that early suspicion, even if the last can be completely stricken from the Rum list based on multiple details that would completely contradict her being Rum. Hyoue earlier in has parallels, such as the dialogue inspector Yamato has about him looking like a crime boss, and how he supposedly looked like a different man after his coma. Rumi's actions are often suspicious, with the clumsiness juxtaposed with her competence. Mary uses a phrase Gin uses, her alluding to Conan and him alluding to Kogoro, drawing a parallel between them. However, such dialogue can also function as a hint, but only if later evidence points to it being factual instead of a red herring- Subaru is the "red guy," the order Amuro serves is a "bourbon on the rocks," etc.

I'd have to agree, that it would be highly unusual for them to deploy a young teenager like that for a murder. With Shiho working on her parents' project, they were specifically grooming her for the research, sending her from a very young age to schools to teach her the biochemistry necessary to work on APTX. She seems to be the exception, though, because of the extraordinary circumstances surrounding the poison, her parents' death, their access to her, and some kind of desperation on the Org's part to keep it all in-house. Otherwise, they tend to get adults as their members or, if necessary, get other criminals hired out for them and then kill them afterward to cover their tracks.

Having a 13 year old as a killer really would be taking a gamble because, no matter how competent the kid, someone that age is going to make mistakes an adult wouldn't.
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dccd

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by dccd »

That actually is the keypoint.

Gosho choice to let the Kohji-case happen exactly 17 years ago was intentionally. Why 17?
Because Sakurako is currently (officially) 23 years old. 23 - 17 = 6.

Kids in Japan start their school-life with the age of 6. Why is this so important?
Because that brings up the possibility of her being involved in the Kohji-case, being shrunk and then still be able to appear in Chibas flashback.

Does that mean she was 23 years old before, when she killed Kohji?
No. Mary proves this. Mary is currently about 10-15 years old and for sure is 40+ in "reality" considering the age of Shuichi.
That means anybody might shrink for more than 10 years.
(we only saw Shinichi and Ai shrink for about 10 years, Mary is the only exception with her shrinking for 20+ years).

Remember Gosho:
A: His/her name haven't shown up, in a sense! Maybe his/her face has appeared...?
What does Gosho is saying us here?
Rums face appeared (lets cross the maybe) but his/her name didnt?

Here´s why:
Sakurako in reality is her mother who "died to illness".
Sakurako Yonehara is a fake name while the mothers name (which isnt mentioned yet), is the real one.
Gosho already used this "mother replaces the daugther/vice-versa"-thing already with Vermouth.

So even though Rums(=Sakurakos face) appeared, her real name didnt.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Serinox

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Serinox »

That still leaves the point about the Organization, including a high member like Gin and the Boss, not knowing about shrinking unanswered. If the current number two underwent such a procedure while he/she was already a codenamed agent, how could he/she have hidden it all these years, while also maintaining their status in the Organization, considering that Rum? Stand-ins might work for some time, but if Sakurako didn't use such a method before shrinking, high ranking members including the Boss will eventually want to meet the real one again and not some proxy.
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k11chi

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by k11chi »

The thought of Rum taking an APTX is going to have to stay in the back burner for now because it was Haibara who finished it.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by dccd »

Serinox wrote:That still leaves the point about the Organization, including a high member like Gin and the Boss, not knowing about shrinking unanswered. If the current number two underwent such a procedure while he/she was already a codenamed agent, how could he/she have hidden it all these years, while also maintaining their status in the Organization, considering that Rum? Stand-ins might work for some time, but if Sakurako didn't use such a method before shrinking, high ranking members including the Boss will eventually want to meet the real one again and not some proxy.
Why should they even know about it?
They didnt even know about Bourbon´s doings through his arc (such as disguising as Shuichi), so I doubt they know about someone who has an even higher rank.

As far as I can see only the boss (and maybe Wakita aswell) seems close to Rum.
So if anybody might know about the shrink, then these two.
And its not as if the other members were searching for Rum. As we can see in the Bourbon and current arcs, everybody kinda works in duos or alone.
Up to this point we got for example Wodka+Gin, Bourbon+Vermouth, Korn+Chianti.
So I absolutely can see Rum + Wakita with Rum being the brain and Wakita being the operative one and him "representing" the duo.
Not to forget that would be an explanation why for the 3 descriptions+the fake eye, since he fits all the descriptions.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Serinox »

Still leaves that the Boss doesn't know (if he did, his actions throughout the Bourbon arc and even before wouldn't make sense).
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by dccd »

Which actions (off the boss?) do you mean in specific?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Serinox

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Serinox »

Sending/allowing Bourbon to go after the adult Sherry who might've been in contact with Kogoro instead of sending Vermouth after elementary schools (if he really wanted to keep just between the two of them, else he could've just sent Bourbon after elementary schools). The Boss wants Sherry eliminated and the Boss like Gin should know that there is still no explanation as to how Sherry escaped. If the Boss knew about shrinking, at the intelligence that he described with, he should immediately know how she did. If he knew, but didn't want to tell Gin, he would've told Vermouth, since she is close to him and is a walking secret/experiment as well, so that she could hunt down Sherry more effectively. There would've been no reason to hide it from her. Yet still, Vermouth did the whole Araide thing to keep shrinking a secret, by pretending she was going after high schools, since Sherry is around that age, to also fool the Boss, who is most likely the only one she gives detailed reports anyway. And that's all speculating that the Boss wants to keep shrinking a secret within the BO, which would be kinda weird, since they are working on something that is able to produce a poison with a shrinking effect side effect, so I doubt that something like shrinking would come as surprise to the higher ranks of the BO.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by k11chi »

Serinox wrote:Still leaves that the Boss doesn't know (if he did, his actions throughout the Bourbon arc and even before wouldn't make sense).
But we also have to keep in mind what Pisco said.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Swagnarok »

k11chi wrote:The thought of Rum taking an APTX is going to have to stay in the back burner for now because it was Haibara who finished it.
But when Atsushi and Elena (allegedly) died, their research was lost with them, if I'm not mistaken, which meant they needed Haibara to redo that same research, meaning there's no way of knowing how far their research advanced before that point. They might've even been successful in developing APT-4869 into something more, the "true aim" of their research. If Rum took the pill before the supposed death of the Miyanos, it wouldn't be unfeasible.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by dccd »

That actually are some valid points.
Unfortunatelly I highly doubt that Gosho already knew in the Vermouth-arc or even in the Bourbon-arc what he was going to do in the Rum-Arc.
So some things might seem contradictionary.

I think its still possible that Rum simply didnt told the Boss about his shrinking and was only communicating via computer.
Your counter-argument "The Boss would like to meet Rum" is still valid, but on the other hand its valid to say
that the Boss doesnt need to meet Rum (again) since he trust him that much as making him his Nr.2.

But I guess we´re maybe a lil bit over-analyzing.
Atleast we agree that Iora isnt Rum ;)
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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