Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 14th, 2017, 9:56 pm

PhantomWriter wrote:I am bothered by the use of "Time is Money."

Spoiler:
People have figured it's likely an anagram, when translated, of Wakita's name.

(I'm not inclined to think it's meaningless or just flavor text, as Rum then tells Bourbon to hurry up, which would be otherwise redundant after mentioning that expression used to tell people to hurry up.)

Assuming for the sake of argument that Rum is warning Bourbon of Wakita, that means Rum knows Wakita's name and of Wakita's movements. Questions that bug me about this include:
  • How did he learn Wakita's name? Was Rum out for sushi one night, went to the place Wakita works at, and figures that Wakita is somehow anti-Org.? Or did Wakita do something in the past that makes it clear his affiliations?
  • How did he know Wakita was in the area investigating? Surveillance? Where is Rum, then? Are there cameras in the area near the Kudo house? Why would they be there in the first place (since only now does Rum care and want Bourbon to investigate)?
  • What if Wakita was really just some fishmonger delivering food and happened to look at his phone soon afterward? Even if he's following the Kudo stuff, perhaps Wakita's just a big fan of the Kudos or of detectives in general? Seems an odd leap to make, imo.

Assuming for the sake of argument that Rum is Wakita, it could easily be Rum warning Bourbon what his cover identity is and not to bother going after him during the Shinichi investigation, preventing Bourbon from wasting time with a red herring.


I think Wakita somehow is antagonistic to Rum. And Rum wants Bourbon to beat Wakita in order to gain info about Shinichi. But let's say Wakita is a small fry working for Gin, and his job is to spy on Kogoro, then it's quite unlikely that Gin would let him handle such a big expose as Shinichi's murder was a job that Gin himself screwed up. I think Wakita has some other reason to gain info about Shinichi than protecting Gin's ass.

Also the last chapter showed Wakita in a rush for doing stuff. Rumi's expression was hidden and Kuroda gave a knowing smirk. Maybe these three little vignettes are a leading pathway to their identity.

Now in Kouji murder case there were three people involved who weren't Rum, (The person who had taken the Shogi piece, Akai Tsutomu, Asaka).
Now in Kuroda's memory when he was comparing Kohji case with Wakasa's neighbour case, two images propped up, Kohji lying dead and Wakasa Rumi fidgeting. Now these two images weren't taken from newspapers. So Kuroda had seen Rumi lurking around the crime scene.

Rumi probably hadn't fought with Rum, if that was the case she would know that Kuroda by any chance is not Rum and despite they saw each other She never seen to recall that Kuroda was the other person who saw her in Kohji murder scene.

Also the finger jab style of blinding people is probably a hint of a Tsutomu vs Rum fight. So my current speculation is Rum killed Kohji and was going to clean-up suddenly le wild Tsutomu appears and Tsutomu kicks his ass(Weak Horse??) Rum escapes, but Tsutomu chased him, Wakasa Rumi was coming to Kohji's room, sees a big man running out(Tsutomu), rushes to Kohji's room, sees the dying message, fiddles with the scene and escapes with the shogi piece.(If you lok closely at Kohji's corpse, it has bruise marks over bot the eyes, such bruises won't have been possible if he was hurt while wearing the spectacles. So somebody put the spectacles over his corpse. But that's not a clean-up, probably it's out of affection. As loved one's often make the corpse as close as possible to the living person. So somebody with a relation to Kohji touched him after he was killed.)

When she was escaping ,Kuroda saw her. That's why the fidgeting image of Rumi in his memory. Now who ca see Rumi and think she's Kohji killer and has the chance to be present at the crime scene, Asaka.
Also his appearance has changed a lot that's why Rumi can't recall seeing him.(probably in his youth, he was a splitting image of Iori)

So now the three Rum suspects are shown to be a) Chasing a lead(Wakita), b) Investigating the said lead with a bit more info.(Rumi+APTX list) c) Smirking like he had figured out everything(Kuroda)

So I 'll go for Kuroda=Asaka.
Rumi=Kohji's mistress.
Wakita=Tsutomu.(Also Wakita's love of idioms and Tsutomu talking in Idioms, also I stumbled upon as kuroda failed to be papakai. As he was never swapped( swap fallacy) and given Shuichi's accounts, we can conclude there were evidence that Tsutomu was injured in an altercation,(they never found his body remark) so we can infer that Tsutomu kicked Rum's ass and got injured while doing it and thus Rum was able to see his face. If that's the case he would know who really is Rum. But he lacks proof so he joined the Org. and is trying to bring Rum down by fighting it from within.)
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » December 14th, 2017, 10:32 pm

Im rly surprised that most of you as it seems doesnt believe that Wakita=Rum after the idiom.
I mean, yeah, its probably quite simple for a japanese reader to figure that anagram out but...

Spoiler:
In the end it seems the somewhat obvious "99year old multimillionaire searching for eternal youth mystery"-guy ended up being our boss aswell.

So now I dont expect much anymore and its more likely than ever that one of those three is actually Rum (prolly Wakita).

Another thing the last chapter proved:
Any one-case character is able to have a significance or playing a bigger - or even the biggest - role in the plot.
So therefore the chances of Chikara being Rum heavily increased.
Even though I dont know if said bo-boss was actually "officially introduced with a name-square" into the manga.
Because afaik Chikara wasnt.

One last thing which I cant figure out:
Even though Wakita seems to be a bo-member to me, his presence near Kogoro simply does not make any sense to me.
Bourbon is officially Kogoros apprentice and he could simply let him do the work.
His presence could only be explained by
- Gin/Rum not trusting Bourbon
- Gin/Rum not thinking Bourbon is skilled enough to gather infos about Kogoro
- Rum wanna make the Kogoro-stalking on his own

Somehow not really satisfying..

Well, another point is:
If Wakita happens to be a good guy, how did he get to know that bo is after Kogoro?
It could only be explained by Wakita being a knockknock or Bourbon/Kir giving him info
or another unknown source giving him the info.

Again.. really not satisfying solution.

So both - being a bo-guy and being a good-guy needs a lot of deeper explaining otherwise his presence
ends up being a plothole.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
PhantomWriter
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » December 14th, 2017, 11:48 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Now in Kuroda's memory when he was comparing Kohji case with Wakasa's neighbour case, two images propped up, Kohji lying dead and Wakasa Rumi fidgeting. Now these two images weren't taken from newspapers. So Kuroda had seen Rumi lurking around the crime scene.


I will admit that Kuroda's involved with the case and his memories imply both that he was at the scene itself (Kohji's body) and that he was possibly observing someone nearby (Wakasa and her looking away while speaking). However, if you shift your point of view just a bit, the memories could just as easily imply other solutions. It could be that, instead of Asaka, he is instead Tsutomu, due to how Wakasa could be fidgeting during an interview if she were suspected. It could also be that he is Rum instead, where his memory of Wakasa not necessarily during the commission of the crime itself, but instead before then.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
Now in Kouji murder case there were three people involved who weren't Rum, (The person who had taken the Shogi piece, Akai Tsutomu, Asaka).


It's also entirely possible that the shogi piece was taken by one of the three (Rum, Asaka, or Tsutomu) without adding another person into the equation. Especially if the shogi piece was either the real message or allows for the proper interpretation of the mirror message (in the case of Rum), or it was done so out of some kind of sentimentality (since the Akai family is somewhat connected to Kohji, or since Asaka was supposed to be his bodyguard and failed miserably).

Your proposal of Tsutomu showing up, kicking Rum's ass and requiring Rum to flee, and having placed glasses back on Kohji could just as easily be Asaka doing it. Asaka is Kohji's bodyguard, after all, and would've been on the site at the time of the murder. Tsutomu is ambiguous, since he could have either been there at the time or shown up later as an investigator.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
Also the last chapter showed Wakita in a rush for doing stuff. Rumi's expression was hidden and Kuroda gave a knowing smirk. Maybe these three little vignettes are a leading pathway to their identity.

...

Wakita=Tsutomu.(Also Wakita's love of idioms and Tsutomu talking in Idioms, also I stumbled upon as kuroda failed to be papakai. As he was never swapped( swap fallacy) and given Shuichi's accounts, we can conclude there were evidence that Tsutomu was injured in an altercation,(they never found his body remark) so we can infer that Tsutomu kicked Rum's ass and got injured while doing it and thus Rum was able to see his face. If that's the case he would know who really is Rum. But he lacks proof so he joined the Org. and is trying to bring Rum down by fighting it from within.)


I will admit that Wakita has curious parallels, including his use of the interjection "ho," oddly idiomatic phrasing like Mary and Shuichi, and the whole "contrive a reason to find out information by bringing food to the Agasa residence" is something Shuichi does a lot as Subaru. However, there are other points where it's questionable. Fact is, this message of Rum's also includes idiomatic language and other associations Wakita has are ambiguous (ocean/water has two major associations- Masumi's post-MT cases, but also the drink rum).

Characters paralleling isn't always a good indicator of something- Shuichi's characteristics early in were a red herring to make the audience think he was Gin. Same goes with Jodie's characteristics being a red herring to make her look like Vermouth. Same goes with Masumi's dialogue and reactions earlier in the Bourbon arc. Or how Gin and Mary use the same quote to allude to the issue of Sleeping Kogoro (Gin speaking of Kogoro, Mary speaking of Conan). Other times, it is applicable, such as specific character designs (Rena and Eisuke have the same eyes, as does Masumi, Mary, and Shuichi).

And, were I in hiding from people who wanted to kill me and I had a particularly distinct usage of language, such as word choice and a propensity for specific forms of wordplay like idioms, I would avoid that like hell. Hell, I'd probably study another accent or dialect and force myself to use it instead, just to avoid the risk of people finding me who shouldn't.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:

Also the finger jab style of blinding people is probably a hint of a Tsutomu vs Rum fight. So my current speculation is Rum killed Kohji and was going to clean-up suddenly le wild Tsutomu appears and Tsutomu kicks his ass(Weak Horse??) )


I've also heard people argue that Mary jabbed Wakita during her poisoning, hence his current injury, since she also uses a similar technique and that is the one she usually goes after, so I'm not sure about that. Though I do enjoy the "accident wasn't an accident" parallel if that (or someone else blinding Rum during the Kohji case) ends up being the case, however. That is to say, it'd parallel how Conan initially thought Kohji's death was an accident and that's the general public's opinion, and it's wrong. Meanwhile, Haibara says Rum lost his eye in some kind of accident.

There are a few issues I take with the weak horse theory, since a slight change of framing can change the meaning. It could be Wakita being in the Org. and complaining about Rum. It could be he's Tsutomu or someone else anti-Org. and saying outright that Rum's weak. It could also be that he's Rum and expressing surprise at how he ended up in such a high station (possible humbleness, even).

dccd wrote:Im rly surprised that most of you as it seems doesnt believe that Wakita=Rum after the idiom.
I mean, yeah, its probably quite simple for a japanese reader to figure that anagram out but...


It's because it's able to be interpreted either as warning Bourbon "hey, this guy's running around, you need to beat him" or saying to Bourbon "hey, I'm under this name, don't go after me."
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 15th, 2017, 1:07 pm

PhantomWriter wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:Now in Kuroda's memory when he was comparing Kohji case with Wakasa's neighbour case, two images propped up, Kohji lying dead and Wakasa Rumi fidgeting. Now these two images weren't taken from newspapers. So Kuroda had seen Rumi lurking around the crime scene.


I will admit that Kuroda's involved with the case and his memories imply both that he was at the scene itself (Kohji's body) and that he was possibly observing someone nearby (Wakasa and her looking away while speaking). However, if you shift your point of view just a bit, the memories could just as easily imply other solutions. It could be that, instead of Asaka, he is instead Tsutomu, due to how Wakasa could be fidgeting during an interview if she were suspected. It could also be that he is Rum instead, where his memory of Wakasa not necessarily during the commission of the crime itself, but instead before then.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
Now in Kouji murder case there were three people involved who weren't Rum, (The person who had taken the Shogi piece, Akai Tsutomu, Asaka).


It's also entirely possible that the shogi piece was taken by one of the three (Rum, Asaka, or Tsutomu) without adding another person into the equation. Especially if the shogi piece was either the real message or allows for the proper interpretation of the mirror message (in the case of Rum), or it was done so out of some kind of sentimentality (since the Akai family is somewhat connected to Kohji, or since Asaka was supposed to be his bodyguard and failed miserably).

Your proposal of Tsutomu showing up, kicking Rum's ass and requiring Rum to flee, and having placed glasses back on Kohji could just as easily be Asaka doing it. Asaka is Kohji's bodyguard, after all, and would've been on the site at the time of the murder. Tsutomu is ambiguous, since he could have either been there at the time or shown up later as an investigator.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
Also the last chapter showed Wakita in a rush for doing stuff. Rumi's expression was hidden and Kuroda gave a knowing smirk. Maybe these three little vignettes are a leading pathway to their identity.

...

Wakita=Tsutomu.(Also Wakita's love of idioms and Tsutomu talking in Idioms, also I stumbled upon as kuroda failed to be papakai. As he was never swapped( swap fallacy) and given Shuichi's accounts, we can conclude there were evidence that Tsutomu was injured in an altercation,(they never found his body remark) so we can infer that Tsutomu kicked Rum's ass and got injured while doing it and thus Rum was able to see his face. If that's the case he would know who really is Rum. But he lacks proof so he joined the Org. and is trying to bring Rum down by fighting it from within.)


I will admit that Wakita has curious parallels, including his use of the interjection "ho," oddly idiomatic phrasing like Mary and Shuichi, and the whole "contrive a reason to find out information by bringing food to the Agasa residence" is something Shuichi does a lot as Subaru. However, there are other points where it's questionable. Fact is, this message of Rum's also includes idiomatic language and other associations Wakita has are ambiguous (ocean/water has two major associations- Masumi's post-MT cases, but also the drink rum).

Characters paralleling isn't always a good indicator of something- Shuichi's characteristics early in were a red herring to make the audience think he was Gin. Same goes with Jodie's characteristics being a red herring to make her look like Vermouth. Same goes with Masumi's dialogue and reactions earlier in the Bourbon arc. Or how Gin and Mary use the same quote to allude to the issue of Sleeping Kogoro (Gin speaking of Kogoro, Mary speaking of Conan). Other times, it is applicable, such as specific character designs (Rena and Eisuke have the same eyes, as does Masumi, Mary, and Shuichi).

And, were I in hiding from people who wanted to kill me and I had a particularly distinct usage of language, such as word choice and a propensity for specific forms of wordplay like idioms, I would avoid that like hell. Hell, I'd probably study another accent or dialect and force myself to use it instead, just to avoid the risk of people finding me who shouldn't.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:

Also the finger jab style of blinding people is probably a hint of a Tsutomu vs Rum fight. So my current speculation is Rum killed Kohji and was going to clean-up suddenly le wild Tsutomu appears and Tsutomu kicks his ass(Weak Horse??) )


I've also heard people argue that Mary jabbed Wakita during her poisoning, hence his current injury, since she also uses a similar technique and that is the one she usually goes after, so I'm not sure about that. Though I do enjoy the "accident wasn't an accident" parallel if that (or someone else blinding Rum during the Kohji case) ends up being the case, however. That is to say, it'd parallel how Conan initially thought Kohji's death was an accident and that's the general public's opinion, and it's wrong. Meanwhile, Haibara says Rum lost his eye in some kind of accident.

There are a few issues I take with the weak horse theory, since a slight change of framing can change the meaning. It could be Wakita being in the Org. and complaining about Rum. It could be he's Tsutomu or someone else anti-Org. and saying outright that Rum's weak. It could also be that he's Rum and expressing surprise at how he ended up in such a high station (possible humbleness, even).

dccd wrote:Im rly surprised that most of you as it seems doesnt believe that Wakita=Rum after the idiom.
I mean, yeah, its probably quite simple for a japanese reader to figure that anagram out but...


It's because it's able to be interpreted either as warning Bourbon "hey, this guy's running around, you need to beat him" or saying to Bourbon "hey, I'm under this name, don't go after me."


There's a counter point to the view Kuroda=Tsutomu. One for the Kuroda mid-coma swap it's very unlikely. Also there's another reason which suggests that Kuroda isn't Tsutomu. Tsutomu made enemies with some dangerous people. Now if he's on the line of thinking Wakasa=Kohji killer then he is focused on Wakasa not on the said bad people who wanted to kill him. TBH, if he was Tsutomu and he saw the corpse of Haneda, then his palm would have struck him. The shogi piece and the scissor holding anomaly, (As Tsutomu is as smart as Shukichi who is smarter than both Rye and Conan)would come to his notice instantly so he won;'t be focusing on the mirror clue. But given his memory and his affinity to look for the mirror clue suggests that he hardly investigated the scene. Also if he was Tsutomu and he had fought Rum he would know for sure that who is Kohji killer and where to find him. He won't be wasting his time on Wakasa.

Asaka wasn't Kohji's bodyguard and had no reason to jump around Kohji. Also Akai tsutomu(given that he's as smart as Shukichi) it's unlikely that he took the shogi piece or put the glasses back on Kohji's face. The someone who did it is Wakasa Rumi, this solution is most likely.(As Kuroda remembers Kohji's corpse with a black eye, bruises over the eyes and with glasses on.) Given Wakasa is shown to possess the shogi piece, it's her doing and this most likely solution.

You're thinking that Rum knew Tsutomu so much that he knew his characteristic way of speaking. I think that's unlikely(given Tsutomu probably fought with Rum and unlike DBZ the protagonists in a mystery manga don't fight with first declaring their name and then their motto and then their patented way of speaking.

Gin had silver, straight hair, while Akai's are curly and black. Jodi calls Conan cool kid while Vermouth calls him cool guy. Also he files of Araide were stolen from kogoro's office not the files on Jodie's family. Similarly Wakita's antagonism towards Rum is clearly shown, he's a drifter and is washed up. Tsutomu's figure was shown on the backdrop of a beach fading into the sea and his first appearance had one of his bangs covering his left eye.

ON Wakita's eye, the exact Japanese translation is a "Pimple" or roughly a Stye. Wakita was eager to show Conan his pimple, by removing his eyepatch. If it was an injury it would have made him a lier. TBH I think it was Gosho's way of hinting that wakita is not Rum.
Mary was poisoned quite sometime ago. It's not something which happened after Sera came to Japan. If Sera's mission was to only find stuff about her dead brother, then she would be possibly target Kogoro so that she can get information about her dead brother, but it's proved that Conan was her target and now we know that why Conan was her target. So it's indirectly proves that Mary was attacked in UK and not in Japan. Now getting close to Mary isn't easy by the Shuichi route, so it's only possible that the Tsutomu route was taken. I think Rum figured out mary's link with Akai Tsutomu and he ordered her assassination.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » December 15th, 2017, 2:21 pm

I agree that the idea of a mid-coma switch is bad for Kuroda, since the logistics are an absolute nightmare for it to be possible, let alone without major witnesses. Though, theoretically, if Kuroda were Tsutomu, he could've taken on a new identity, then ended up in the coma. (Regardless, Kuroda being Rum would raise too many questions, such as how the Organization didn't just try to kill him after disappearing for ten years and suddenly returning.)

My mistake.

It's not that I think Rum necessarily knew Tsutomu, and I'm well aware that people constantly hide their real natures or aren't who they initially appear to be in this series. I think it's more the issue that having such an odd speaking pattern would be wise to mask, if you were in hiding and people probably want to murder you.

My point with the parallels can be misleading. Hell, it's a common tool in fiction to draw parallels between opposing characters. As you point out, there are details that are incongruent with the interpretations. This is why I'm so wary of saying anything about Wakita, because his parallels are a mixed bag, including his strong parallels to Amuro and some to Shuichi, but other things are ambiguous and how the Organization's more keen on focusing on Kogoro, not on Conan, at least until Shinichi's name appears again. Meanwhile, Wakasa and Kuroda zero in on Conan very quickly.

Even if it's a hint, it's still a little weird, IMO. If I were at a restaurant and the guy serving had a sty that needed to be under a bandage, I would prefer he didn't decide to show me it just before I eat or possibly touch it before handling food.

It would be hard for Mary to get to Japan if she were poisoned in the UK. She'd need a passport to get to Japan. She doesn't have access to a temporary antidote like Kudo did for the London arc and she hasn't established any false identity for her shrunken self, instead opting to stay where her daughter is staying and hiding whenever someone comes over. (Unless someone covered for her or she has forged papers?)
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
ArseneLupen
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby ArseneLupen » December 15th, 2017, 4:12 pm

This case is highly complex, so I dont understand many points:

1. We say always there are three-four people involved: Kuroda, Rumi and Asaka,Tsutomu (and Tsutomu too if Kuroda or Asaka or Wakita is not Tsutomu) Obviously one of them is Rum. (or not?) The dying message was for us always : Asaca Rum. İf the message is really "Carasuma" how can Kohji write a dying message of the Organization founder (or Boss). Normally you would spell or write the culprit.

my theory: Kohji knew Rum in person, so Rum is a family member of Carasuma or is the right hand of the carasuma family. İf Kohji saw, that Rum killed Amanda (a highly related person to the FBI and CIA), then its a reason that Rum had to kill Kohji. Since Kohji knew Rum, Kohji could wrote the dying message "Carasuma". So Kohji was unfortunate. Because i dont think that Kohji had connections to the organization, their objective was Amanda Hughes.

2. İf the dying message is "Carasuma" then Asaca=Rum theories are going down ? Because we firstly hypothesize this all only because of Kohjis dying message (Asaca Rum).

my theory to this (According to the latest chapter) Firstly if Asaca = Rum from my point of view it would be a have great unlogical point. İf you are Asaka and Rum at the same time you could reveal the Family name or boss of the organization if someone knew that you are Rum from the organization and named your fake name Asaka (vice versa too) İts a little bit risky so i think such clever person like Rum doesnt do this. (Or was this the "mistake/screw up thing" that Gin mentioned)

3.İf I remember correctly, we saw in the latest chapter a shogi piece next to Rumi. So I think its the missing piece. İf Rumi /= Rum why should she strew the crime scene ? Other thing is, if she is Asaka too i will ask the same question.
İf she is not Rum or if she is Asaka, whats the point stealing a shogi piece that will help solving the case?

4.Are Rum and Asaka both members of the Organization ? Are they prepared the plot together ? (Organization members are working a mission mostly with 2 people tag team example: Gin,Vodka / Korn,Chianti/Vermouth,Bourbon/ Kir (in "clash Red an black" with Gin and Vodka) , Pisco worked with Vermouth in his case file, Tequila is exception.). So for a such high mission it would be also risky to work alone i think.

5.Why Asaka fled if he/she is the bodyguard and not Rum? (see point 1.) Was Asaka maybe Tsutomu ? If I remember correctly no one saw Asaka because she was newly hired, so if we assume Amanda received a threat she hired Tsutomu as her Bodyguard ?

6.How is Kuroda related to this file, if he is not Rum,Asaka,Tsutomu ?

I will try get answers on my questions too ((=
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 16th, 2017, 12:08 am

PhantomWriter wrote:I agree that the idea of a mid-coma switch is bad for Kuroda, since the logistics are an absolute nightmare for it to be possible, let alone without major witnesses. Though, theoretically, if Kuroda were Tsutomu, he could've taken on a new identity, then ended up in the coma. (Regardless, Kuroda being Rum would raise too many questions, such as how the Organization didn't just try to kill him after disappearing for ten years and suddenly returning.)

My mistake.

It's not that I think Rum necessarily knew Tsutomu, and I'm well aware that people constantly hide their real natures or aren't who they initially appear to be in this series. I think it's more the issue that having such an odd speaking pattern would be wise to mask, if you were in hiding and people probably want to murder you.

My point with the parallels can be misleading. Hell, it's a common tool in fiction to draw parallels between opposing characters. As you point out, there are details that are incongruent with the interpretations. This is why I'm so wary of saying anything about Wakita, because his parallels are a mixed bag, including his strong parallels to Amuro and some to Shuichi, but other things are ambiguous and how the Organization's more keen on focusing on Kogoro, not on Conan, at least until Shinichi's name appears again. Meanwhile, Wakasa and Kuroda zero in on Conan very quickly.

Even if it's a hint, it's still a little weird, IMO. If I were at a restaurant and the guy serving had a sty that needed to be under a bandage, I would prefer he didn't decide to show me it just before I eat or possibly touch it before handling food.

It would be hard for Mary to get to Japan if she were poisoned in the UK. She'd need a passport to get to Japan. She doesn't have access to a temporary antidote like Kudo did for the London arc and she hasn't established any false identity for her shrunken self, instead opting to stay where her daughter is staying and hiding whenever someone comes over. (Unless someone covered for her or she has forged papers?)


I'll daresay that NPA has a fixed the age-limit beyond which you can't get a job in NPA. It's 30 at max. When Kohji case happened this Kuroda would have been 33-34. So that idea of your's is nullified.(It can have exceptions but that will require Kuroda to have a graduation certificate from a premier/ivy league institution of Japan/overseas. Now that's very unlikely to forge)

I know so I don't trust them. They are just secondary devices to prove a point. TBH, I find it very intriguing that Wakita came to Kogoro only after Kogoro got entangled into soul detective case.(It's evident that Asaca song case was more important to BO than the soul detective case.)
The person who is looking for evidence against Kohji killer would likely to know whether there was a third party involved in it or not. If Tsutomu/anyone who fought Rum and Kohji while Kohji was dying/dead, then they would remember two things amiss, 1)Kohji's palm which was forced open after his death. 2)The glasses were put back on his corpse after he was dead.
Now if he was chasing Rum then he would know for sure that Rum is out of the question. Asaka is also out of the questiona as Asaka wasn't Kohji's bodyguard. So there was this third person in this incident who did this aforementioned stuff.

Now Tsutomu has enough reason to believe that this person is Rum's ally(trying to protect Rum). And when the soul detective(who create farces based on his real world grave digging of incidents) is going to say stuff, then it's reasonable to assume that he knows something about Kohji case. But he dies before the farce, so the only link to that incident is Kogoro. Now anyone who is from BO instructed to keep a close watch on Kogoro can achieve these two goals simultaneously. Also think about the eagerness of Wakita to accompany Kogoro to a murder case, not his next case is quiet revealing. Wakita wants to stay close to Kogoro, when he solves his next murder case.(It's not the case to study sleeping Kogoro, as the phenomenon appears irrespective of murder cases) As if Wakita's presence will ensure something for Kogoro in next murder case of his.(Maybe Organization has planned a murder of someone(Kuroda??) and Kogoro has a high chance in getting involved in it. So Wakita wants to make sure that Kogoro isn't targeted again by the organization by presenting himself over there and telling BO that everything is under control as Kogoro is useful for him for the Hotta infos.)

Also his too much focus on Kudo Shinichi is another point of interest.(He could just conveyed BO the info. but it seems he hasn't done so and doihg it all by himself at the moment.) Rum's interest in Shinichi is reasonable(wants to get rid of Gin by proving his incompetence) but Wakita's interst only means that he knew Rum would be interested in it so he can catch Rum red-handed.

Now Shinichi's appearance in this case(Crimson Tengu murder case) is eerily similar to Asaka in Haneda Kohji case, while Heiji is Akai Tsutomu and Okita is Wakasa Rumi(fake Asaka).

Also Mary drugging Japan looks impossible.(Why did Sera took an interest in Conan? Why did Sera changed Hotels frequently?Why would organization target Mary when they don't even know her identity? It's far easier to create a fake id for a kid than for an adult.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » December 17th, 2017, 7:38 pm

I think that could add unnecessary variables having both an Asaka and a fake Asaka, considering we already have red herrings/suspects for Asaka, such as Mary, and how many other variables and unknowns there are about the case.

While those documents can be somewhat easier to procure in normal circumstances for a child compared to an adult, things like passports are contingent upon a parent or legal guardian doing so for the child. Looking up the UK laws regarding child passports, it requires things like a birth or adoption certificate, which is similar to the US's rules. So either someone or a couple would have to be covering for her, which seems unlikely given her general distrust toward others, or she forged it herself and ran numerous risks in the process, or the issue never came up in the first place.

What I think is more likely is that she and Masumi went to Japan, then someone tried to kill Mary. We know why Masumi's changing hotels, too- Mary's having them do so and seems to do so every time that information of Masumi's residence gets out to her friends or the police. After all, if they don't know that Masumi's caught up in all this, they could accidentally give information to the wrong people, and it would look suspicious for her to say "Don't tell people where I live."

But the Org. clearly did have reason to try to kill Mary. Since she's been shrunk, that means either she attempted to commit suicide via APTX (a la Haibara) or the Org. tried to murder her (a la Shinichi). I'm hesitant to consider the suicide theory (which usually involves her having some of it courtesy of her sister), based on her behavior. Given her wanting to counterattack, and her current paranoia and moving around the city, I think they tried to kill her.
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 17th, 2017, 9:56 pm

Point taken, but Asaka and perceived Asaka explains that (Asaka=Woman, Asaka was seen with a mirror and how Asaka vanished like a phantom)

Those documents can easily be procured for a little help. Sera just needs to make a fake doc. which states Mary is adopting the child-Mary and a presence an Attorney will make it sail through.

I'm more interested in why the org. should be going after Mary in the first place?(Akai hid his tracks quiet well, and Mary and Masumi are no more Akais.)
Why did someone from the ORg. attacked Mary with APTX?
I do have a feeling that it's Rumi/Iori.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » December 17th, 2017, 10:06 pm

dccd wrote:The hand-panel is one thing that probably will never ever be solved.
But yeah, one can see it as a subtle hint on a 4th person being involved.
Especially the size of the panel - comparable to Wakitas and Kurodas - kinda favours this idea.

And well, primarily Rumi is a Rum suspect and only secondary an Asaka one.
Even though we obv know she isnt Rum the vast majority of the readership sees her as one.
Gosho obviously tries to build her up as well, since it does not make any sense to focus on her one-eye-problem for ages.
Did Asaka was told to have any eye-problems?
There you go.

She agrees ;) :

Interesting that, even after the blindman-case and tengu-case you still believe that Iori is part of the mainplot even
though there was not one single scene which indicated that.
If he´s not Rum but a Rum-suspect, then why didnt Gosho gave him some last-page-suspects-screen time?


Well, he may be intentionally downplaying his role and significance for a future revelation.
Back in file 898, the Scarlet epilogue, professor Agasa poured warm tea in four cups made of stainless steel. Out of the four beer mats, skulls were drawn on three, with a black pen! Afterwards, all beer mats were turned over. On the one without a skull, black tea with a citrone/lemon flavor was placed. On the remaining three, with a skull, black tea with vinegar was placed. It ends up that the professor draw the skulls with erasable pen, and due to the heat and friction, the ink became invisible. And he put vinegar in all four cups and acted as if the tea was delicious and tricked the kids. In other words, the illusion of four cups with one good (lemon tea) and three bad (tea + vinegar) was Fake!

So, the skull drawn with black pen could be a foreshadow and allusion to RUM (given the pirate spirit association), and the three suspects of Rum (being the three bad cups) and the one cup left aside being good (Iroi Muga) as a 'Fake' setup by Gosho (professor) to fool readers into thinking who could be bad and who could be good. In other words, Gosho may have something in store for us as a big surprise! ;D
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » December 18th, 2017, 7:40 pm

@ Blackmoon
I think in the end we have the same idea/hope, right?
Neither of our three main suspects but a 4th person is Rum.
I still would be hardly disappointed if it ends up being Mr. "????".

@Zero
Now there are several pointers which nullifies Wakita=Rum.

Rum's eye injury is permanent while wakita's is temporary in fact Wakita even went as far as to disclose it to Conan. Not Rum, proven by his actions.(As Conan would have seen only a Prosthetic eye but not an injured eye, tbh Wakita is doing so infront of Kogoro to assure him that he's not Rum and at the same time gauging how much Kogoro does know about Rum.)

On the message to Bourbon, the problem is (Hurry up Bourbon is already added and it is grammatically unsound to insert an idiom in middle of the sentence. Idioms are used as sentence ending stuff.) Bourbon is the most insightful person in BO(not the average Joe) so when an idiom is placed in an odd position and after a full blown sentence with a comma and the said idiom can be rearranged into Wakita Kanenori without much chagrin then it's evident that Rum is hinting Bourbon to find stuff about Wakita.

Also Rum disclosing the stuff about his fake name to Bourbon when Rum is shown to be such a secretive person, (that nobody can say how he looks) then it's evident that Rum won't do such childish stuff.


Dunno if your aware of it, but neither of your three counterpoints seriously "nullifies" in the sense of "absolutely 100% disproves" this.
I really hope that Wakita =/= Rum, but theres pretty much no way that we can nullify him or anyone by now.

1) We dont know whether his injury is permanent or temporary - or rather old/fresh.
There is no 100% proof for any of these two options.
Still there is a slight trend towards the injury being fresh (=/=Rum) since he cant use a knife properly.
[Funfact: Is there a possible suspect who used a knife in his very first scene?]

It is likely for an average person to say "Yes, plz show me ur disgusting injury - it doesnt affect my appetite"? No.
Is Conan 24/7 in Rum-search-mode and therefore would consider a random cook as a suspect and therefore say "Yes, show me!"? No.
So in the first place this action might be a mislead to the reader and in second place it still can be explained by average logic.

2) Yeah, but does the average reader finds "Time is money = Wakita Kanenori" really that fast?
I really cant tell, since only a japanese speaking person might tell us.
And I never heard about idioms being usually placed at the end of a sentence.
Obviously an idiom might be a whole sentence itself, so its free to the users taste to place it wherever he likes to.
Still you obviously got a point and it clearly shows a trend towards an option - still it doesnt nullifies anything.

3) It still can have no in-manga-meaning as a seperate message, but simply be a Rum-hint to the manga-reader.

Again all ur points brought up are rather opinions than real disproves.
Still we hope the same: Wakita =/= Rum.

I think there are 2 absolutely essential questions about Wakita:

1) If Wakita is BO, why has he such a high interest in Kogoro since Bourbon is already Kogoros apprentice?
[Btw, since Kuroda doenst give a damn about Kogoro since he knows about Conan, its obvious that Kuroda has nothing to do with Wakita]

2) If Wakita is a good guy, why is he there?
How does he get to know Gins plan to attack Kogoro?
If its Tsutomu one would need to come up with a Kir-Shuichi-Tsutomu-connection.
Unlikely, but possible.

So you see that both options need some explanation.
Its free to you which one you think is more likely.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 18th, 2017, 10:07 pm

The issue is suppose Wakita's injury is permanent and he has a prosthetic eye, what does he achieve by hiding it under a medical eye-patch?
If Conan really wanted to see it then?(Now don't tell me Rum deals in probabilities when the counter even will be enough to expose him as a liar.)
If he was Rum (then he should be adept in his monocular vision, handling a knife wouldn't have been an issue then.)
Why he was eager to show it, that's the question? Not what average logic/Conan would have done? There is no point for Wakita to bring it up in the first place? Only conclusion is, he is trying to know how much Kogoro knows about Rum.(Being Rum doesn't substantiate his actions)
So it disproves that Wakita has a prosthetic eye.

The hint is not for the average reader,(the average reader kept on guessing that Subaru is Bourbon, let's not bring them up in a serious manga discussion. Average reader doesn't even aware of Pirate's spirit, let alone Time is Money.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proverb, this is how proverbs are used. There is no need for Rum to put Time is Money in English and then, Hurry up Bourbon in Kanji/Katakana. The English proverb is something else than a petty proverb or signature catchphrase of Rum.If it wasn't, Hurry up Bourbon wouldn't even be mentioned.
Also if you look at Bourbon's smartphone, you can see the from:%^&* has been eclipsed by the word-bubbles, I'm pretty much sure, it's Rum's fake name and we have seen it in Manga, sometime before.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby blackmoon » December 19th, 2017, 4:19 am

dccd wrote:@ Blackmoon
I think in the end we have the same idea/hope, right?
Neither of our three main suspects but a 4th person is Rum.
I still would be hardly disappointed if it ends up being Mr. "????".


Well, let me further elaborate on the game\case of the vinegar black tea played by professor Agasa. Professor Agasa claimed that only 3 tea were added with vinegar and 1 lemon tea, while in fact all 4 tea were added with vinegar. Vinegar, as some may know, can be a side-product of wine production, and the word itself can be associated with "vineyard" since some vineyards also produce vinegar along with wine. 'Vineyard' and 'wine' are commonly associated with the BLACK organization. Also, the skulls drawn on beer mat where tea was placed were marked with a BLACK pen, which further indicates and enhances the 'blackness.' Yet, the tea itself is of the color 'red' despite its name being called 'black tea.' So, the real\true color of the tea is 'red' despite its name. While the skulls were drawn with an erasable pen, also could mean the 'black label' may be erased later. So, the trick for Gosho (like professor Agasa) may be to first introduce three suspects as possible candidates for Rum or BO agents, while at a later date revealing them to be either undercover agents or on the side of 'red' ('not black') But, don't forget there was a cup that was presented as innocent lemon tea without skull mark, so that 4th person was left out and presented as not a suspect or candidate for being 'BLACK.' Yet, it turns out that cup also has vinegar added to it, so... that 4th cup could be Iroi Muga, who could be associated with 'vineyard' in some way? ;D In other words, i don't think he is completely 'clean' from association with the BLACK organization.
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » December 19th, 2017, 4:46 am

blackmoon wrote:Yet, the tea itself is of the color 'red' despite its name being called 'black tea.' So, the real\true color of the tea is 'red' despite its name. While the skulls were drawn with an erasable pen, also could mean the 'black label' may be erased later. So, the trick for Gosho (like professor Agasa) may be to first introduce three suspects as possible candidates for Rum or BO agents, while at a later date revealing them to be either undercover agents or on the side of 'red' ('not black')


What we call black tea in English, the Japanese call it red tea (literally), so you may be overthinking this one aspect.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » December 19th, 2017, 11:21 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:The issue is suppose Wakita's injury is permanent and he has a prosthetic eye, what does he achieve by hiding it under a medical eye-patch?
If Conan really wanted to see it then?(Now don't tell me Rum deals in probabilities when the counter even will be enough to expose him as a liar.)
If he was Rum (then he should be adept in his monocular vision, handling a knife wouldn't have been an issue then.)
Why he was eager to show it, that's the question? Not what average logic/Conan would have done? There is no point for Wakita to bring it up in the first place? Only conclusion is, he is trying to know how much Kogoro knows about Rum.(Being Rum doesn't substantiate his actions)
So it disproves that Wakita has a prosthetic eye.


Sometimes I think you forget about the fact that not every single action by a character needs to have a deeper in-manga meaning.
Pretty much every question you came up with, might be answered with out-of-the-manga reasons.

Why does he wears a patch?
In Manga: He wants to hide his injury/dont want to reveal information.
Out Manga: Keep the reader guessing.

If Conans asks him?
In Manga: He still might have said no. Or does Conan will force a random cook to show his injury? Does this sound likely to anyone?
Out Manga: We would get the solution/big hint to his character on like page 5 after his intro. Doesnt make much sense.

Eager to show it?
In Manga: Several possible options.
Out Manga: Random funny/trolly situation

I mean I gave u the chance to say "Yup, this and this is possible even though I think my idea is more likely".
Im absolutely ok with that but really allergic if one comes up with
"I proved xxx".
Because u did not proved or disproved anything.

The hint is not for the average reader,(the average reader kept on guessing that Subaru is Bourbon, let's not bring them up in a serious manga discussion. Average reader doesn't even aware of Pirate's spirit, let alone Time is Money.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proverb, this is how proverbs are used. There is no need for Rum to put Time is Money in English and then, Hurry up Bourbon in Kanji/Katakana. The English proverb is something else than a petty proverb or signature catchphrase of Rum.If it wasn't, Hurry up Bourbon wouldn't even be mentioned.
Also if you look at Bourbon's smartphone, you can see the from:%^&* has been eclipsed by the word-bubbles, I'm pretty much sure, it's Rum's fake name and we have seen it in Manga, sometime before.


You still did not seem to acknowledge that the idiom might simply dont have any in-manga meaning.

Furthermore, might u give us a list which hints are for the average reader and which ones are adressed to mad geniuses?
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler

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