Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
MeiTanteixX
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » March 2nd, 2017, 1:13 pm

Tantei San wrote:So, while going through the wiki page related to the Kohji Haneda Case, some points struck me.
We know,
Characters-
Kohji Haneda
Amanda Hughes
Asaka
RUM(presuming them both to be different)

Setup-
Kohji had a match in US, Amanda being her fan and rich reserved a room in the same hotel.She was accompanied by her then bodyguard Asaka.
Day before the match, Kohji and Amanda are murdered with Prime suspect as Asaka, The Bodyguard.

Theory-
Amanda in a hype of meeting Kohji, went and reserved her Room in the same hotel. Then, she went to meet him with her bodyguard Asaka. One thing led to another and both Kohji and Amanda ended up dead.
Now, If they both were killed by Asaka, then there is no point in any further part.
But,
If Rum was present there as well and killed both of them, and made Asaka as the prime suspect it is sure that Asaka would develop some sort of hatred and revenge towards specifically Rum. And in this case, Asaka= Rumi. She was framed for the murder of both of them by Rum and that she may/maynot be related to Kohji, but definitely wants to kill RUM.
I think I summarized what we know about the Kohji case well here:
The Kohji Case

You claimed that she met Asaka before her meeting with Kohji, but that's not a "webiste fact". It's just an assumption.

on a different note,...
I think I've found out what Rumi is carrying in her pocket(in File 989).
It's the "U" shard from the dying message.
Image
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

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PhantomWriter
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » March 3rd, 2017, 9:53 am

Max1996 wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:On the other hand, a 13-year-old assassin is still quite the stretch. There's no precedent for it, in DC.

That's only based on the assumption that Muga IS actually 30 at the time of the Poirot Case. For all we know, he could actually be older than that.


To be fair, Subaru's listed as 27 or 28 in his introduction, so we're given his cover's age, instead of Shuichi's actual age (which Gosho said is 31 and makes more sense timeline-wise).

As for speculation about when Mary was poisoned, given the lists of APTX victims and Shiho's interest in those who turned up no corpse, my guess is that she was poisoned after Kudo and after Haibara fled the Organization. That would mean there's a variable effect on how far someone shrinks, since she shrunk to middle school age instead of to about 7.

MeiTanteixX wrote:
on a different note,...
I think I've found out what Rumi is carrying in her pocket(in File 989).
It's the "U" shard from the dying message.
Image


Hmm, that's good to know. I'd speculated that the piece was a shogi piece, but that makes more sense.

Though that raises a question- why would Rumi keep the piece of a murdered man's dying message like that? (Though it implies she isn't Rum, since the Org. tend to avoid people who keep trophies of their victims from what we've seen.) The other question I have would be in relation to the evidence. Was that removed from the scene after the fact and shouldn't someone miss that in the evidence catalogue? ;)
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." -Sherlock Holmes
Nemomon
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Nemomon » March 4th, 2017, 5:43 am

I don't think Mary was poisoned after was Kudo and Shiho. From what we have seen, Mary is pretty good at moving from one place to another, and looks like Sera is also. Therefore they have been doing that since a long while. Considering that Haibara left the Org just recently, I don't think that Mary would left it immediately after her.

I think that Mary took the poison, but taking it by her was just not recerded by yhe Org. This is why she is not on Sherry's victims list. Also, considering that she's Tsutomu's wife, and he was involved in this case long time ago, it could be that she tookyhe poison even before Sherry or someone else was even recording who took the poison.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
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I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » March 4th, 2017, 6:05 am

PhantomWriter wrote:As for speculation about when Mary was poisoned, given the lists of APTX victims and Shiho's interest in those who turned up no corpse, my guess is that she was poisoned after Kudo and after Haibara fled the Organization. That would mean there's a variable effect on how far someone shrinks, since she shrunk to middle school age instead of to about 7.

Hmm, that's good to know. I'd speculated that the piece was a shogi piece, but that makes more sense.

Though that raises a question- why would Rumi keep the piece of a murdered man's dying message like that? (Though it implies she isn't Rum, since the Org. tend to avoid people who keep trophies of their victims from what we've seen.) The other question I have would be in relation to the evidence. Was that removed from the scene after the fact and shouldn't someone miss that in the evidence catalogue? ;)

Agreed.

It would imply that she has a personal connection to Kohji, since she showed a serious face when she heard "Prosthetic" and was gripping that object.

Not if it wasn't recorded as a found evidence to begin with.

Nemomon wrote:I don't think Mary was poisoned after was Kudo and Shiho. From what we have seen, Mary is pretty good at moving from one place to another, and looks like Sera is also. Therefore they have been doing that since a long while. Considering that Haibara left the Org just recently, I don't think that Mary would left it immediately after her.

I think that Mary took the poison, but taking it by her was just not recerded by yhe Org. This is why she is not on Sherry's victims list. Also, considering that she's Tsutomu's wife, and he was involved in this case long time ago, it could be that she tookyhe poison even before Sherry or someone else was even recording who took the poison.


As far as we know, we haven't seen the full list, or how many there are. It makes sense for her remember Kohji's name, since it was two rows below Shinichi's name(whose name she repeatedly saw in the list after investigating his disappearance). That doesn't mean that there are, or are not, any known names in the list.

Mary was most likely shrunk by APTX, since that's the only confirmed drug with a shrinking effect, which means it's after Shinichi, since he was the first test-subject.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

DeviantArt:http://meitanteixx.deviantart.com/
Tumblr:http://masterdetectivexx.tumblr.com/
Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFL6Gqku3dvoPhWaNIRUu0Q
Nemomon
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Nemomon » March 4th, 2017, 6:50 am

Shinichi was first official test subject, but we don't know if there weren't any people before who took it unofficially. For example I can imagine a situation in which someone took the drug with themselves to home and there they gave it to someone. This person would not be recorded in the victims list. Also look at Gin, it didn't look that he gave the drug to Shinichi to test if it will kill him, or if the BO will be able to confirm his death. Rather he gave it to Shinichi because he considered it fun. Plus, it was Gin that said that the drug was not yet tested on humans. But maybe he was told wrong story. After all he thought that it is just a poison and nothing more.

Finally, recently I watched the Episode One. I know it is not canon at all, but since Gosho worked on it too, then maybe at least some parts are canon. During the scene where Shiho was in Shinichi's room and noticed the opened box with children's clothes she figured out that Shinichi is not dead but shrank.Yet, she wrote on that list that he's dead. Since she worked on it and knew what's its purpose, it could be that not everybody on that list is dead even if it says that they're dead.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
Themaninarmor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Themaninarmor » March 4th, 2017, 11:19 am

Gin do it because of fun and i think he do it with organization approve or unofficial... But shinichi's name still in the list. It means whoever use the drug MUST report it... I have 2 point to explain that...

1. only selected high ranking member who hold the new drug... (and maybe in assasination grup only). Even the only named member that we know had the drug is Gin. as for RUM we still don't have proof but at least if RUM is Kohji's killer... then he must have that drug.

2. The limited amount of the drug being distributed to BO's member mean the use of drug is controled by organization. If that so then "i'm sorry boss... i lost it somewhere" is a poor excuse and would not be tolerated.

And for Mary... gin said that shinichi is the first Guinea pig for the NEW developed drug not the old one. (well i'm not sure if gin or vodka who said it is a new drug...) at least it refer to the drug developed by Shiho if not then vodka/gin won't say "it is new developed drug" because the research is already started by Shiho's parent and for now only the NEW drug have the shrunken effect.

Now... if Mary is still alive then her status in the list will be uncertain and shiho must have spotted it, but she never said anything about it. it means either mary's name not in the list before shiho left the organization or Mary's status in the list is dead. But for organization which make sure their target condition to make a mistake like that is somehow.... well in shinichi case, he got help from "inside". But i still believe Mary got drugged after shinichi.
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Nemomon
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Nemomon » March 4th, 2017, 12:56 pm

When Gin said "new drug", I don't think he meant a drug developed by Shiho. He rather meant "a new drug unavailable yet on the market", so simply just a drug created by the BO. I doubt that he even knows that there was another drug in the past. Plus, he doesn't pay attention to details (so he forgets names and faces of people he killed), so I doubt that he would even try to distinguish the drugs.

Also, he used the drug on a random person he even didn't know. Only because he saw Shinichi solving a case, he knew who he is, and therefore the BO was able to investigate whether or not Shinichi was confimed dead. I easily can imagine Gin using the drug on people he doesn't know. Therefore I hardly can imagine him reporting the usage of the drug to the higher ups (especially considering that he himself probably is one of the higher ups considering how much freedom Anokata gave him). I think he rather was given the drug because he's a high ranking member, and was given it just to play with it.

Also, considering that Shiho was using the drug on rats, I doubt that the distribution of the drug between the BO members was super strict. Probably only the codenamed people had access to it, but I don't think they had to report every single usage of it. Maybe only some of the BO members reported using it, but not everybody. Especially that I doubt that Gin reported using it on Shinichi, if anybody it probably was Vodka. Also, since Gin was willing to give that drug to random people, I doubt that the BO could track every single usage of it, and confirm the condition of the ones that took it. Especially if not always they could even know the name of the one who took it (let alone where they live).

For this reason I'm pretty sure that some of them could leave the BO without Shiho or anybody else noticing that. Since Shiho was able to recreate a temp antidote, I'm pretty sure other BO members who worked on it could recreate it in their own labs. Therefore the chances that Mary took it before Shinichi are really high.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
Themaninarmor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Themaninarmor » March 4th, 2017, 3:41 pm

Nemomon wrote:When Gin said "new drug", I don't think he meant a drug developed by Shiho. He rather meant "a new drug unavailable yet on the market", so simply just a drug created by the BO. I doubt that he even knows that there was another drug in the past. Plus, he doesn't pay attention to details (so he forgets names and faces of people he killed), so I doubt that he would even try to distinguish the drugs.


Well... I disagree with you when you said Gin doesn't pay attention to details. Because he always carefully execute his plan even he won't forgive a tiniest mistake. we can see that in saguru case (chess, shogi, igo case which vodka almost got in trap set by conan), in FBI vs BO part 1 and 2.
Well... he have killed many people so he just think it pointless to remember someone who already died, but it doesn't mean Gin is a stupid cold bloody killer who only know how to kill and how come you said that gin used the drug to random people whenever he like? The real reason gin used the drug to shinichi because the area where they were at that time is surounded by police, so he couldn't used the gun. So if you still don't know how scary his ability.. Then think of him like the ruthless and cold blodded version of Moriarty. Until now... Conan defeated him because Gin didn't know his foe is a "child"

Nemomon wrote:Probably only the codenamed people had access to it


You said it by yourself that the drug limited to codenamed people... Yes it is true but it is not just codenamed people but selected codenamed member... Vodka, Chianti, Kir, Bourbon and vermouth don't have the drug. So it means the drug usage is limited and also being strictly monitored and why they must report it? Because the drug is still under development or not complete thats why there is a list of name the APTX victim (it is like the victim is test subject not as a killing target). Imagine if an organization have a list death by gun, death by poison, etc. It's weird.

So my conclusion is the usage of the drug must be reported

Oh.... I remember about pisco too (either he may have the drug or gin gave him the drug). Gin said to pisco that he free to use the drug....Wasn't it like gin give an approval for pisco to use the drug? If it is like what @nemomon said about the drug is free to use without any obligation then why gin have said something like that?
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Absenta » March 4th, 2017, 3:53 pm

But why does the boss rely so much in RUM¿? I mean, he commited a terrible mistake, not like Pisco´s mistake of course. But the Hohji Haneda should have lead to loose his Nº 2 Rank inside the BO, and this likely didn´t happen.

RUM must be very very close to the boss, as much as Vermouth. The boss doesn´t take risks, allthough Rum is his second hand it´s rational to think that the boss was very upsed with this issue. And it´s something that even Gin knows inside the BO.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » March 4th, 2017, 5:20 pm

Absenta wrote:But why does the boss rely so much in RUM¿? I mean, he commited a terrible mistake, not like Pisco´s mistake of course. But the Hohji Haneda should have lead to loose his Nº 2 Rank inside the BO, and this likely didn´t happen.

RUM must be very very close to the boss, as much as Vermouth. The boss doesn´t take risks, allthough Rum is his second hand it´s rational to think that the boss was very upsed with this issue. And it´s something that even Gin knows inside the BO.

There's no confirmation that Rum was the second-in-command 17 years ago.

If Iori is Rum, then it's understandable why this mistake was overlooked and he was eventually able to become No. 2 of the BO(he was already doing so well for his age).
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

DeviantArt:http://meitanteixx.deviantart.com/
Tumblr:http://masterdetectivexx.tumblr.com/
Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFL6Gqku3dvoPhWaNIRUu0Q
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Misztina » March 5th, 2017, 8:21 am

Themaninarmor wrote:Until now... Conan defeated him because Gin didn't know his foe is a "child"


Or did he?

I think Gin does have a feeling about this. Or that his enemy is "using a child".
If we look back to the Itakura case, he did look at two lockers in which only a child could fit in and he stopped after saying that an adult could not fit in there. And he had such a malice grin on his face. Gin is not unreasonable. He knew that only a few people entered the area of the station, a few drunkards and a kid. Obviously the most suspicious one is the kid, because why would a kid be at an abadoned station at 4 o'clock in the morning.
Plus, Gin's comment on the person investigating them is "A fox as cunning as a detective". It is very interesting to use that word "kitsune", since in Japanese mythology foxes are not only wise, intelligent, but shapeshifters too.
Also, in the FBI vs BO, he asked Conan to be shot too. There was no reason for that, unless he knew or suspected that that it would be dangerous to let such a kid live, because he may have informations on the organisation, because he was working together with Kogoro and possibly the FBI.

This brings me to another thing: is it possible that Gin shared this information with Rum? That a kid is involved, and maybe Rum is investigating Conan?
I actually thought back in the 2005-2006 years (oh boy, was that long ago!) when Eisuke appeared and was suspicious of knowing that Conan is the brains behind the Sleeping Kogoro, that Eisuke is a new agent investigating this matter. I was obviously wrong, but maybe foor Rum it would be worth a shot. IF Gin gave him the info about this matter.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Spimer » March 5th, 2017, 11:10 am

But we don't know if Gin was paying to attention to Vodka's ramblings over the phone since he'd come to scold him for acting on his own without asking him (Gin) for permission.

The locker scene has been subject of many speculations, to the point some suggested that "Gin" was actually Vermouth in disguise and that's why he said that.

In theory Gin has never seen Conan save for Black Impact when he ordered Chianti and Korn to shoot both but maybe it was more in the policy of "no witnesses".

Whether Gin has given a thought on the matter is unknown but taking his account of not caring about anyone or anything (to the point he didn't mind blowing up the Mystery Train with Vermouth and Bourbon on it) and his policy of forgetting about those he kills to avoid hesitating or feeling remorse make it more probable that he hasn't bothered to think about it.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 5th, 2017, 11:15 am

Misztina wrote:If we look back to the Itakura case, he did look at two lockers in which only a child could fit in and he stopped after saying that an adult could not fit in there. And he had such a malice grin on his face. Gin is not unreasonable. He knew that only a few people entered the area of the station, a few drunkards and a kid. Obviously the most suspicious one is the kid, because why would a kid be at an abadoned station at 4 o'clock in the morning.


But he didn't follow up on these suspicions of his. By stopping short, and not opening that locker all the way, Shinichi/Conan escaped that situation alive, and will—eventually—destroy the Organization, because Gin walked away when victory was within his grasp.

And here's something else—an adult with dwarfism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarfism) could've fit in the locker. Gin should've thought of that, if he thought that the "sly fox" was hiding in those small lockers.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Misztina » March 5th, 2017, 12:50 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:But he didn't follow up on these suspicions of his. By stopping short, and not opening that locker all the way, Shinichi/Conan escaped that situation alive, and will—eventually—destroy the Organization, because Gin walked away when victory was within his grasp.

And here's something else—an adult with dwarfism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarfism) could've fit in the locker. Gin should've thought of that, if he thought that the "sly fox" was hiding in those small lockers.


Yeah, I know that it should have ended like Gin killing him there, but he didn't and that is very... intriguing. I mean, he basicly said "Silly me, no adult could fit in here" and went home. And yeah, what if the kid was a dwarf mistaken as kid? Gin, Gin... you lack fantasy.
But if he didn't think there was anyone in the last locker, why didn't he open it to be sure? I just can't see how Gin can be like this, it is a bit out of character for me. Unless, he has reasons. Or he just made a mistake.

Then again, I could be dead wrong, so...
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 5th, 2017, 8:20 pm

Misztina wrote:But if he didn't think there was anyone in the last locker, why didn't he open it to be sure? I just can't see how Gin can be like this, it is a bit out of character for me.


I think it was just Gosho's attempt to crank the tension up to near breaking point—even further than he'd already cranked it up.

In my opinion, Gosho should've just cut the whole part about Gin checking the lockers then stopping short, and just had Gin and Vodka leave after they shine their flashlights in the last row of lockers and find no one.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
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