Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » November 30th, 2017, 10:12 pm

I'll tell you my reason for thinking that Kuroda is Wakita's boss. Kuroda is hinted as a boss of some organization(not no.2) and Wakita has been hinted as Boss' no.2. Now these are not Rum hints rather their relationship in my interpretation.
If Wakita's hint was a Rum herring yet a truth, then only way for it to make sense is to link Wakita with Kuroda.

Kuroda's lack of cognizance in Kohji case(to think Wakasa Rumi was Asaka the killer and not Rum) makes me think he has only scratched the surface, real Tsutomu would be more interested inthe Asaca song case or Hotta Gaito case so that he might get more relevant information.

So real Tsutomu is more likely to be hanging around Kogoro/Conan, who were present in both the cases.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » November 30th, 2017, 11:24 pm

While interesting, there is a question I have.

So, we know Kuroda is in Tokyo as of 920 due to a transfer. We also have the Asaca song case and the Soul Detective case set after the transfer. If he's Wakita's boss and keen on investigating Rum and connections to the Kohji case, wouldn't he just be able to look into those cases' files at his leisure instead of sending out a lackey who's there on flimsy pretext undercover? Kuroda's a superintendent of First Division, meaning it would look perfectly normal for him to dig in those cases.

(Also remember that both Conan and Subaru think Asaka = Rum, at least at first, and it's a logical initial guess of Kohji's message.)
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 1st, 2017, 9:10 am

Let me rephrase myself, When Wakita started infiltrating the BO his boss was Kuroda but then Kuroda ran into the accident and had fallen into coma and currently has lost touch with Wakita/is searching Wakita aka Akai Tsutomu, thus his favourite drink is "Red"(Akai) Tea.
The case files don't necessary mean that they will have all the information, precisely the case files will have neither as both incidents the suicide or murder had no involvement or connection with the Kohji case, but a detective who had a knack of solving tough mysteries was invited by Hotta to unearth the Kohji case, so this detective is bound to become the focal point, not Hotta's murder if Akai Tsutomu is cognisant of this fact.
Also Rum=Asaka is illogical at best childish at worst.

To think Kohji knew Rum's code-name and Rum chose such a time to kill Amanda that he had to kill someone else just to keep things under the rug (if Rum was Asaka, Amanda was a sitting duck and would have been assassinated much before.) is preposterous.

To be precise to Kuroda it's Wakasa Rumi,(the dying message)
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » December 1st, 2017, 9:25 am

Perhaps you said in the past, but I forgot. Why and whom do you think Haibara was triggered by in the camping case?
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 1st, 2017, 10:04 am

People don't trigger her but their thoughts do. If someone is intently thinking about BO Haibara gets anxious, that's mthe theory of mine. It explains the incident of BO smell coming on and off from Subaru in his introduction case. As Subaru was thinking if the Arson was done by BO or not. So the thought that triggered Rumi to think about Rum had triggered Haibara in the process.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » December 1st, 2017, 10:18 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:People don't trigger her but their thoughts do. If someone is intently thinking about BO Haibara gets anxious, that's mthe theory of mine. It explains the incident of BO smell coming on and off from Subaru in his introduction case. As Subaru was thinking if the Arson was done by BO or not. So the thought that triggered Rumi to think about Rum had triggered Haibara in the process.


But Shinichi/Conan thinks intently about the BO all the time—why wouldn't he trigger her BO sense, then?

It can't be just thinking about the BO, alone, that triggers it, right? There have to be other factors.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 1st, 2017, 10:42 am

She's accustomed to Conan, now she's also accustomed to Subaru.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » December 1st, 2017, 10:59 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:People don't trigger her but their thoughts do.


So she's psychic?

It explains the incident of BO smell coming on and off from Subaru in his introduction case. As Subaru was thinking if the Arson was done by BO or not.


Where was it implied that this is a thing Okiya thought?

So the thought that triggered Rumi to think about Rum had triggered Haibara in the process.


Here's the core issue. To this day, every person who has triggered Haibara was or is in the BO. It's one thing Gosho has been fairly consistent about, so it's weird to suddenly break this consistency and reconstruct it as something different. Is it possible Gosho will do that? Sure, but so far I don't see any reason to assume so (plus it would be an incredibly cheap move on his part).
I recall Chekhov also tried to dance around the BO triggering issue by (if I recall correctly) suggesting Haibara's getting triggered by malicious intentions in general, but as far as I remember, Chekhov didn't show any instance where Haibara was "BO triggered" by someone who wasn't or isn't in the BO.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 1st, 2017, 6:58 pm

Yup she is one. deal with it.(Sensing adrenaline rush due to heightened senses as a side-effect of APTX and distinguishing the difference from a petty incident because she is very familiar with that feeling associated with BO. Maybe this is the new definition of Psychic)

What was the reason that Subaru had been so anxious about the burned house? Why the feeling was rather transient than recurrent? If only BO association triggers her then it would be uniform hut that is just not the case. The thought about BO explains without such glitches.

Knowing about BO so that the feeling is strong enough to tickle Haibara sense means one is very closely associated with BO so that the thought is strong enough.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » December 1st, 2017, 9:32 pm

The Org. sense is a bit weird, but the common thread is that every person sensed by it was in the Org. at some point. This doesn't mean their allegiance was to the Org, as we know Akemi was just trying to get Shiho out and we know that Shuichi was loyal to the FBI and an infiltrator from the start. It's also possible that she sensed Rei during the Detective's Nocturne arc, since she notes the feeling as rushing up behind her, too, and he's loyal to the NPA. However, others like Gin and Vermouth are loyal (or loyal enough) to the Org., so anyone who triggers the sense is at least important to the plot, even if they aren't a threat to her or Kudo.

I'd like to comment that Gosho is consistent with his red herrings making sense after the fact. That is to say, he doesn't cheat with red herrings. A good example of not cheating would be Subaru during the Red Shirts case. Gosho's dialogue is often full of double-meanings in these instances. This is incidentally why I can't make heads or tails of Wakita at the moment, since various elements of his actions and dialogue can be argued either way. A good example of cheating with a character's actions and reactions would be Prince Hans in Frozen. While alone after he meets Anna and is still in the water, Hans smiles and it's quite clearly a sincere smile to make the audience think he's a sweetheart charmed by Anna. It's a cheat to the audience, since there's no reason for him to be hiding his intentions while alone, except to make sure the twist at the end is a surprise.

The sudden possible Org. sense trigger during the camping case will likely make sense in the end, even if I find it unlikely Wakasa Rumi's loyal to the Organization. Wakasa is clearly testing and baiting Conan and realizes he's intelligent. She's also got access to the APTX victim list, the updated list after Shiho changed Kudo's listing to "dead." Several elements of her behavior are completely nonsensical or counter-intuitive if she's supposed to be Rum. The most obvious being her name. If she's Rum, she'd be an idiot to prance around using a fake name that's essentially two letters and a letter swap away from the possible message left at the scene of a murder she committed so long ago. Especially since the Organization is so keen on keeping details quiet.

(Unless Kuroda set off Haibara's sense? But then that raises its own questions about why Kuroda didn't act on certain pieces of information and how he was connected with the Org...)

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Let me rephrase myself, When Wakita started infiltrating the BO his boss was Kuroda but then Kuroda ran into the accident and had fallen into coma and currently has lost touch with Wakita/is searching Wakita aka Akai Tsutomu, thus his favourite drink is "Red"(Akai) Tea.
The case files don't necessary mean that they will have all the information, precisely the case files will have neither as both incidents the suicide or murder had no involvement or connection with the Kohji case, but a detective who had a knack of solving tough mysteries was invited by Hotta to unearth the Kohji case, so this detective is bound to become the focal point, not Hotta's murder if Akai Tsutomu is cognisant of this fact.


Let's assume for the sake of argument that Wakita is Tsutomu in disguise, Tsutomu as Wakita infiltrated the Organization for the NPA, and that Kuroda is his boss prior to his coma. If we assume Kuroda and Wakita are out of contact based on the scenario outlined and Kuroda is searching for Akai (though drinking that kind of tea would be a quite roundabout hint), that means Wakita would be limited to information he could glean on his own or through the Organization, instead of through his connection to Kuroda.

If the former is true (information gleaned on his own), this becomes a bit odd in light of characters' reactions to this situation. While there's that invitation involving Hotta unearthing the Kohji case, the reactions of the characters to this are quite interesting. We know Conan wants to get involved and see what happens because he's got very few leads- it's a case that happened over a decade ago, everyone's either dead or disappeared, and it happened in another country. However, Kogoro himself seems frustrated with Hotta at the start, commenting that he's a fraud. Mary's reaction about it being boring and demeanor imply she doesn't hold Hotta's information or act in much regard. Hell, even Gin doesn't much care because Hotta's dead, only instead focusing on Kogoro because he thinks Kogoro keeps getting involved in Organization business. Wakita is Tsutomu in this scenario and Tsutomu was directly involved in the case, right? Even if Kogoro was brought in to help, a good detective couldn't actually do much with Hotta's sketchy and questionable information. (IE "Garbage in, garbage out.")

If the latter point is true (information gotten through the Org.), this scenario raises questions of why the Organization didn't just get Bourbon to check for them. Bourbon's already connected to Kogoro Mouri and they all still think he's loyal- Vermouth's whole reasoning for joining during the Asaca song case was because she was worried he'd harm Conan and Ran during his investigation. We know Gin doesn't like Bourbon because he tends to go off doing things on his own, but that's different than the idea of Bourbon being an outright traitor.

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Also Rum=Asaka is illogical at best childish at worst.

To think Kohji knew Rum's code-name and Rum chose such a time to kill Amanda that he had to kill someone else just to keep things under the rug (if Rum was Asaka, Amanda was a sitting duck and would have been assassinated much before.) is preposterous.


I'd disagree with your former point, as both Shuichi and Conan initially consider the idea that Asaka is Rum. It's a simple idea and doesn't multiply variables unnecessarily if you don't examine the scene again and realize elements of the current scissor case and the Kohji case have a few key differences (such as where the scissors ended up before the crime scene was discovered). They'll both likely, with further reflection, realize that something isn't right about the Asaka = Rum conclusion, but it's a common and otherwise reasonable initial guess, especially with the knowledge that it is certainly an Organization kill from Haibara's dialogue.

While I agree it'd be odd if Kohji knew Rum's codename, the Organization clearly shows concern for Asaca ever showing up, since it's still tied to Rum and we know Rum was there. I do also agree that, were Rum Asaka, that would raise questions of why Rum didn't strike at a different time, where Amanda's death wouldn't be so noticeable, and when she didn't have someone with her. However, those are things that you consider later, not when you first hear the information.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » December 1st, 2017, 11:44 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:Yup she is one.


Cool. Can't wait for Nick Fury to show up and recruit her to the Avengers.

Sensing adrenaline rush due to heightened senses as a side-effect of APTX and distinguishing the difference from a petty incident because she is very familiar with that feeling associated with BO.


Now you're just making stuff up as you go :|

What was the reason that Subaru had been so anxious about the burned house?


Eh... he wasn't. Or at least I don't really see how the way he's behaving in that case fits the definition of anxious.

I'm still unsure based on what you've determined that Okiya was thinking whether or not the arson was done by the BO.

Why the feeling was rather transient than recurrent? If only BO association triggers her then it would be uniform hut that is just not the case. The thought about BO explains without such glitches.


I honestly think trying to explain Haibara's BO sensing (or "smelling" as it was referred to early on) abilities is like trying to explain the science behind APTX. It's not really necessary and it's just part of the fiction.
Rather, let's look at the function of what that BO sensing ability means not within the world of the series, but outside of it. It's a device Gosho made up with which he can set up red herrings and also give hints. It goes on and off to the convenience of the author. There's no real need to "explain" it, other than understanding what it does. Now, as I said earlier, everyone who has BO triggered Haibara so far has been (is or was) from... well, the BO. This has been a consistent element. If you'd like to claim that Haibara will also get triggered by people who have never been in the BO, then... okay I guess, your theory. But It just seems like instead of trying to fit your theory within the previously established elements of the series, you're twisting said elements to fit with your theory.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 1st, 2017, 11:45 pm

It's not a roundabout hint, Gosho has done it previously with Jodie drinking Sherry.
Now on Tsutomu=Wakita front I don't get your gripe. It's fairly logical for any interested party to snoop around Kogoro as he was involved in Hotta Gaito case who seemed to have information on Kohji case. Don't forget that Kogoro was invited by Hotta, so a logical assumption is that at least at some level Hotta shared Kohji case info with Kogoro, to make the act look perfect.

Gin has trust issues with Bourbon and he was eager on Kogoro's further involvement. It's very logical for him to send someone closer to him to keep a tab on Kogoro but unlike Bourbon Wakita looks eager and impatient. He wants to accompany Kogoro to his next murder case, he comes off as a suspicious person from the very beginning, unlike Amuro. As if his assistance is necessary in the aforementioned case. Which should raise several eyebrows, but makes perfect sense if he's a BO guy whose goal is totally different from BO objective.

So he wants to stay by Kogoro's side when he solves a murder case(defenceless due to sleeping) and his very presence would protect Kogoro, also on the other front Gin looked least interested in KOhji case because it isn't his headache but he's concerned about Kogoro's involvement. This means Kohji case in itself is Rum's problem not Bo's. This means even if Rum is found out to be the killer of Kohji then he'll be charged as his social persona not as no.2 of BO. Let's say Rum's social name is "Centorea Shianus." Now in Kohji case even if the investigation yields result it'll point to Centorea Shianus not on Rum the no.2 of B.O. So it can also be implied that there's a rivalry/strained relationship between Rum and Kohji which can be used(though wrongly) to tie Rum as Kohji killer for a different reason altogether.

Asaka=Rum is an illogical choice, to make it you need to assume, Kohji knew Rum's codename and Asaka was Rum, these two permises are illogical choices given the current scenario. Both Akai and Conan made the choice because Gosho wants readers to believe in Asaka=Rum and divert attention from the fact that "Rum's social persona had social/professional ties with Kohji so he knew Rum's social name." and the top executives of B.O. do know this, that's why they are so jumpy about the message.
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » December 2nd, 2017, 1:56 am

To call her a "psychic" is maybe a bit far stretched, but in some weird way it is (or atleast a 100% certain working instinct) kind of fitting.
Anyways I think the key-point really is the function inside the manga-context.
I think you really nailed it there, Kor.
I have to emphasize that his kind of view/approach
- whats the function of... -
to the manga is absolutely mandatory to solve the riddle.

Btw Zero,
"It's not a roundabout hint, Gosho has done it previously with Jodie drinking Sherry."
Is this somehow related to the sensing-topic? #explain

On the manga:
I think so far we all agree that Gosho wants us to think:

Rumi
=Asaka (hints: picture, dying message, name)
=A current bo member (Ai sensing her, bo-list)
=Rum (combined)

So the sense´s function is obv there to make us think she is a current bo-member/in the contect of the arc that shes Rum.
So by that we are pretty safe to say (since Gosho does not present us the "solution" in the middle of the manga):
Shes not Rum + shes not a current bo-member.
(really hard, I know).
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » December 2nd, 2017, 2:35 am

^This happens when one doesn't read the whole text and the previous one following it, btw it's a noble prize worthy theory that Sakurako Yonehara is Rum. Kor should we send this to the noble committee??
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » December 2nd, 2017, 3:10 am

I actually did but im still uncertain how u meant it.
Thats why I tried to kindly ask you.
But anyways, you can keep it for yourself now.

Im absotutely sure about my pick.
If ur sure that she isnt then what about a 100-1000$-bet?
Im in.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey
[ ] Iori = just a butler

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