Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
PhantomWriter
User avatar

Rye on Discord

Posts: 277

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » November 27th, 2017, 11:07 am

I have no idea what the significance of this is at the moment, but I'd been looking through Kuroda's and Wakita's appearances when I noticed something.

Wakita's bending his legs and stooping, especially throughout the first chapter, where it would be easiest to get his height.

Spoiler:
Image

Image

Image


However, he stops at one point before going back to it.

Spoiler:
Image


I decided to mark things up to figure out the guy's height and he's taller than Kogoro, based on belt placement and hand placement at rest compared to Conan.

Image

Image

Interestingly, using the pickpocketing victim, we know she's shorter than Ran.

Spoiler:
Image

And Ran's relative height to Kogoro.

Image


However, we do get a slight comparison between one of the taller suspects and Wakita, based on the door.
Spoiler:
Suspect vs Door, the top of the sign's clearly at his eye level.

Image

Victim vs Door, the top of the sign's at her height.

Image

Wakita vs Door requires some maneuvering due to the odd angle, but he's taller than the top of the sign.

Image

This is also confirmed by Wakita and the suspect being about the same height.

Image
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
Tantei San
User avatar

It's Complicated... It was...It is..And Will remain that way....!!

Posts: 311

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Tantei San » November 28th, 2017, 3:34 am

Whoa... This really is an interesting Find PhantomWriter. Indeed .. looks like Wakita may just have more to offer.
K.O.R.N
User avatar
Posts: 54

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby K.O.R.N » November 30th, 2017, 12:00 am

Hard to say in that situation...but I'm saying that height in DC is very misleading...it's hard to know exactly how tall these characters are. That only makes Wakita more suspicious and more of a BO member.
Scanlator
PhantomWriter
User avatar

Rye on Discord

Posts: 277

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » November 30th, 2017, 10:31 am

I was thinking about the theories about Kuroda being either Tsutomu or Rum.

However, I think the "Kuroda was replaced during the coma" theory is very weak, even with the nurse's statement. It would be hellish in terms of logistics.
Spoiler:
  • In order to do this switch, it would require someone to give plastic surgery akin to the shirigami case and akin to the speculation about Rena/Hidemi, where it's an intentional impersonation, this is all well and good since it's possible in-setting. However, in light of his injuries that led up to being in the hospital, that would require the knowledge of what was on under the real Kuroda's bandages, not just what his official photograph looked like, since he was injured.
  • Trying to recreate those injuries would run major risks, including it not being recreated properly, risk of infection, and risk of complications. It would also require intentionally blinding himself and having to adapt to that lack of eye. A lack of true depth perception is not a good thing to intentionally cause in oneself.
  • It would also require inducing a coma in the person, which is risky and tends to wear off after the drugs go out of the person's system. The drug would have to be consistently administered, which would both require some helper to do so and would show up on blood tests and with his vitals.
  • He would also have problems with blood type and similar issues- the real Kuroda may not match him.
  • It would look mighty suspicious to the medical staff if the guy who was healing suddenly had fresh burns and looks like he lost his eye again, I would think.
  • Where did the real Kuroda go? Is he still in a coma? Did he get murdered? Did he die? Is he retired in Hawaii?
  • The biometrics Kuroda has would change- fingerprints and similar. Trying to change that in the system would raise questions if noticed, as would sudden unknown fingerprints suddenly popping up...
  • His voice wouldn't be the same, so people who knew the original Kuroda would notice. (His throat wasn't injured and he isn't constantly faking sick.)
  • He wouldn't have any of Kuroda's memories, so the "missing minor memories" bit makes no sense. He would instead be safer claiming some kind of major amnesia.
  • He was in a police hospital and hospitals as a whole are quite busy. There's always some staff running around, from the cleaning staff, to kitchen staff delivering food, to nurses, to doctors, and medical students who are training. To get people in and out like that without anybody noticing or seeing anything would be a feat.


Kuroda as a false identity and him getting into a coma from an accident simplifies it greatly and makes the idea much cleaner.
Spoiler:
  • If plastic surgery is involved, it would've been before the incident. It also would just be "make me look different" instead of "I need to look exactly like this other guy."
  • There's no real Kuroda to pop up and ruin the plan, nor to kill and have to dispose, or ensure he keeps quiet, or what have you.
  • There's no need for an induced coma, so no problems there.
  • No problems with suddenly fresh wounds.
  • Blood type and similar would match, as would Kuroda's biometrics in the police records.
  • Same voice.
  • No need to swap people out, meaning no terrible logistics problems.
  • No need to intentionally blind oneself and run numerous risks regarding infection and the intentional weakening one would get from that regarding perception.
  • The memory issue might be genuine, then.


(The nurse could be a red herring, or could be a hint that the guy isn't who he says he is in some capacity but nothing else. Her only comment had to do with Kuroda's hair color, which would be a mind-boggling thing with regard to the idea of a switch mid-coma. You got the plastic surgery right and the kind of wound he had right, down to the missing eye, but nobody involved thought to dye his hair?)

As for who Kuroda is, I think we can narrow it down.

  • Only five named characters are mentioned regarding the Kohji case- Kohji, Amanda, Rum, Asaka, and Tsutomu.
  • While there were presumably other investigators on the Kohji case and Kohji and Amanda have family and friends, this is an issue of law of conservation of detail. They aren't relevant to the solution.
  • Two of them are dead and can be removed from the list on who is who in the current arc- Kohji and Amanda- leaving Rum, Asaka, and Tsutomu. Rum is active in the Organization and was active when Haibara was still Sherry. Asaka vanished without a trace. And, while Mary acts like Tsutomu is dead, Shuichi's thoughts reveal that they never found his body.
  • Kuroda knows about the details of the case and Wakasa taking someone down like she did reminds him of the case. Conan's knowledge of the case implies that the general public thinks Kohji met with some kind of accident. This is also interesting because Kuroda's memory is not of the photographs Conan sees (which don't include Kohji's face after he was beaten up, but Kuroda remembers his beaten-up corpse).

    Ergo, Kuroda is either Rum, Tsutomu, or Asaka. (Each of the current Rum suspects may correlate with someone who was at the scene 17 years ago.)

    By process of elimination, for now I think it's likely he's Tsutomu:

    Spoiler:
    • Kuroda is not Asaka. The build's wrong and Asaka would be unlikely to join an organization that requires extensive and longer background checks like the NPA.
    • Kuroda's behavior makes no sense for Rum. If I were Rum and came across a person who was likely connected to the case like that, I would not go camping with them, I'd just kill them or get someone else in the Org. to kill them, if I were in a position like he was in the police. The Org. isn't shy about leaving corpses around, so long as it isn't traced directly back to them.
    • The ten year coma also makes it unlikely he's Rum, since Rum disappearing and ending up in a police hospital would raise far too many eyebrows in the Organization. Someone would be inclined to just shoot him and say they found out he was a rat.
    • Kuroda not being Rum or Asaka, but instead Tsutomu, also explains why Kuroda was so keen on going on that camping trip. If he were uncertain if Asaka was or wasn't Rum because of Kohji's message, he'd be worried about Rum getting close to Conan, especially out in the middle of nowhere. Could figure out the kid's important and kill him where it's easier to dump a body.
    • It explains his request for Conan's aid (920) and general knowledge of how it's Conan, not Kogoro, solving things. Yet nobody in the Org. has gone after Conan yet and instead still think it's Kogoro who's important (953).
    • We also don't know what agency Tsutomu worked for except that it wasn't FBI. While most take this to mean CIA, the fact that Kohji was murdered and he's presumably a Japanese citizen, it could mean Japanese law enforcement may have some kind of jurisdiction on the case (like the NPA). This is more speculative on my part, though.
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
Top
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 183

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » November 30th, 2017, 12:27 pm

I commend your extensive effort n this, I'm totally on the same page over this "Weak theory." but I've doubts about whether Kuroda himself being a faked identity and he met with the accident and got into coma not very believing. If Kuroda was a fake identity the person playing this would have to create a fake Japanese profile to enter NPA. Suppose he was Tsutomu and he faked his id, now Kuroda currently is 50 years old. So 17 years ago this identity would be 33 years old, now would someone this much old age get inducted in NPA? In NPA the highest age limit is 30. SO it's not possible if Kuroda is a faked identity. Now given the fact that Kuroda can recall Kohji's beaten up corpse and yet hardly knows that Kohji killer is not Asaka but Rum , forces me to think despite having a good knowledge about the case he hardly knows about Rum=!Asaka and misinterpreting the dying message as Wakasa Rumi, rthen he's the real deal. Kuroda is a real person neither switched nor faked, and probably is the Boss of Wakita.
Top
PhantomWriter
User avatar

Rye on Discord

Posts: 277

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » November 30th, 2017, 1:07 pm

I was unfamiliar with the NPA's age restriction. Is it when one joins that one has to be 30 at maximum?

However, the reason why I think Kuroda's connected to something is because of the Kohji case. He sees Wakasa Rumi and immediately jumps to thinking of that case and looking it up online. That's incredibly bizarre.

(I have no idea with regard to Wakita. I find him suspicious and sketchy, but so much of his stuff can be argued both for and against the Organization that I'd like to wait for a bit more information on him.)
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
Top
Absenta
Posts: 47

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Absenta » November 30th, 2017, 1:11 pm

I´m really convinced in the Tsutomu=Kuroda theory. Kuroda doesn't´t give me any bad vibes at all, he has a scary looking but you can notice that he has some sort of affection towards Conan. This means that someone that Conan knows gives this info to Kuroda prior to the blogger or even the snow case...Who could be¿? If he is Tsutomu Akai maybe is someone of the Akais that know his true identity but Tsutomu wanted to be death for them, in order to not put them in danger.

I´m thinking in Amuro, it would be a nice plot twist to see Amuro working along with the father of his archenemy Akai. What I don´t know is if Amuro could know Kuroda´s true identity, he is intelligent so I bet he knows.

So yeah, the people we know who were involved in Kohji Haneda case are Asaka, Tsutomu and Rum. I find kinda obvious that Asaka is Rumi, I believe that Tsutomu is alive and he is already moving towards discovering the truth so I can bet he is actually Kuroda. I still place my bets in Chikara Katsumata as Rum: shogi player, intelligent, appeared just after RUM introduction, suspicious but not red-herring-obvious and related to the only member of the Akai family that is not related directly (in drammatical terms) to the plot-so it could be a good twist.

As for Wakita I think he is just another side plot to Rum´s arc, he is obviously related to him but not to Kohji´s case I think. Being Rum nº2 inside BO leads to a lot of information inside the organization...Wakita could be just another piece to understand why Rum is nº2 and how the BO works. Actually, it would be nice to show more about how they work.

Don´t you think that Chikara looks a bit like Gosho¿? His face and hair (when Gosho had hair)haha
Top
dccd
User avatar
Posts: 116

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » November 30th, 2017, 1:24 pm

"Only five named characters are mentioned regarding the Kohji case- Kohji, Amanda, Rum, Asaka, and Tsutomu."

By logic some kind of police must have been involved in this too.
Since Kohji was a japanese citizen its only logical that - besides the US-police/FBI/CIA - the japanese police
should have been there.
Japanese police -> Kuroda.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Top
Absenta
Posts: 47

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Absenta » November 30th, 2017, 2:05 pm

dccd wrote:"Only five named characters are mentioned regarding the Kohji case- Kohji, Amanda, Rum, Asaka, and Tsutomu."

By logic some kind of police must have been involved in this too.
Since Kohji was a japanese citizen its only logical that - besides the US-police/FBI/CIA - the japanese police
should have been there.
Japanese police -> Kuroda.



True, but...what kind of narrative sense to the plot would give if Kuroda is just a policeman that was involved in Kohji´s case¿? I mean, if Gosho talks about Tsutomu, Asaka, etc.. is because there are narrative consequences. Detective Conan is a story, it´s a narration and is not very Gosho to introduce a character without any mention before, it´s just not meeting with any expectation and people (including me would be disappointed).

I think it´s much more exciting to think Kuroda as Tsutomu that just a man from the police that was investigating too. Why Kohji´s case should affect so much to Kuroda in order to be investigating it 17 years after...it has to make further sense beside just being Japanese police.
Top
dccd
User avatar
Posts: 116

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » November 30th, 2017, 2:51 pm

I mean, if Gosho talks about Tsutomu, Asaka, etc.. is because there are narrative consequences. Detective Conan is a story, it´s a narration and is not very Gosho to introduce a character without any mention before, it´s just not meeting with any expectation and people (including me would be disappointed)


That exactly is my point of view.
Even though im not exactly sure what you meant by "to introduce a character without any mention before".
Maybe some examples?

True, but...what kind of narrative sense to the plot would give if Kuroda is just a policeman that was involved in Kohji´s case¿?

I shouldve been more specific:
I think he´s not a regular policeman (as Takagi or Chiba for example) but the boss of the NPA.
This would somewhat make since we dont have a counterpart to James Black yet.
We even had the FBI, CIA, probably the MI6 involved so its only about time to bring in the NPA aswell (as Amuro kinda already did).
And I still consider the "boss of a big org"-comment on Kuroda as a hint on being the NPA-Boss.

I consider theres a chance of Kuroda being the husband/father of Yonehara aswell (both favorize black tea),but I guess that takes it too far :p
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Top
MeiTanteixX
User avatar
Posts: 1173

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » November 30th, 2017, 5:24 pm

dccd wrote:I consider theres a chance of Kuroda being the husband/father of Yonehara aswell (both favorize black tea),but I guess that takes it too far :p
While I'm just calling them the "rice" family :P
(Yonehara = "Rice field", Kuroda = "Rice Paddy")

When did Sakurako mention that black tea was her favorite? ???
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

DeviantArt:http://meitanteixx.deviantart.com/
Tumblr:http://masterdetectivexx.tumblr.com/
Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFL6Gqku3dvoPhWaNIRUu0Q
Top
Serinox
User avatar
Posts: 528

Contact:

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Serinox » November 30th, 2017, 6:00 pm

dccd wrote:Since Kohji was a japanese citizen its only logical that - besides the US-police/FBI/CIA - the japanese police should have been there.

Uh, no. Since the crime happened in America, there is no necessity for the Japanese police to be involved, even if the victim was a Japanese national. It's possible they got involved after some time at the request of US local police or the FBI, but it's not like they *should* have been there.
Top
dccd
User avatar
Posts: 116

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » November 30th, 2017, 6:02 pm

782 P11
She brings red (=black) tea in.
(in 785 P4 it is translated as black tea)
(it seems she wasnt told to but did this on her own)

919 P8
She choses black tea for herself.

Doesnt necessarily mean that it is her absolute favourite drink
- regarding Kuroda it was stated without a doubt and somewhat "in ur face"-
but it somehow is indicated in her case.

I still see no other reason for her appearence in the 918-920case besides giving us the
hotel and tea-info.

Did you come up with the "rice-thing" due to their names?
Might be a funny "coincidence".
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Top
PhantomWriter
User avatar

Rye on Discord

Posts: 277

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby PhantomWriter » November 30th, 2017, 6:40 pm

Wakita also has the rice patty kanji in his name, dccd. Kuroda, Haneda, Yonehara, and Wakita are all surnames in Japan.

While I don't mind the idea of Kuroda being Rei's superior, there's no real evidence supporting it. Of the chain of command he's involved in, Rei is the highest up for certain- he's ordering around his various underlings during the Scarlet Series and that one subordinate during that keychain case. The dialogue Yamato gives seems more like an a red herring for Rum and an attempt to hint to the audience that Kuroda is important to the arc mystery. It could mean something more due to them both being associated with the NPA, but we'd need something more to say anything definitively.
"Data! Data! Data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -Sherlock Holmes
Top
MeiTanteixX
User avatar
Posts: 1173

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby MeiTanteixX » November 30th, 2017, 7:15 pm

dccd wrote:782 P11
She brings red (=black) tea in.
(in 785 P4 it is translated as black tea)
(it seems she wasnt told to but did this on her own)

919 P8
She choses black tea for herself.

Doesnt necessarily mean that it is her absolute favourite drink

- regarding Kuroda it was stated without a doubt and somewhat "in ur face"-
but it somehow is indicated in her case.

I still see no other reason for her appearence in the 918-920case besides giving us the
hotel and tea-info.
I see.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Image
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
Image Image
Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
Image
Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
Image
Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

DeviantArt:http://meitanteixx.deviantart.com/
Tumblr:http://masterdetectivexx.tumblr.com/
Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFL6Gqku3dvoPhWaNIRUu0Q
Top

Post Reply

Return to “Story Discussion (Manga Spoilers)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Azuregold, Nemomon and 20 guests

cron