Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 11th, 2018, 10:59 am

Muga=Knight as Knight is horse faced? Heh.....but what type of Horse is he? A good one or an evil one?

BTW who will voice Wakita? That's a million dollar question.
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » January 15th, 2018, 12:23 am

Sth to read for those long days.

@Zero

Ah ok, so I missunderstood you about Sera.
So I think it would be correct to assume that Wakita somehow knows, just like Sera that Kogoro is a fraud, but the former felt a hard time to pin the stuff on Conan.

I misread this part.

A double playing Tom Cruise makes the double as Tom Cruise for the time being.

Erm no. Tom Cruise stays Tom Cruise and the double stays the double - just preteding to be TC - not actually being TC.

To make it short:
Kuroda is obv a good character
Rumi is one aswell.
So only Wakita is left for the bad guy-position.

About Kuroda
Well... Kuroda says its on his own. "Your the brain behind sleeping Kogoro".
I think Gosho didnt chose those words just4fun but to point out: Hey, this guy knows about Conan [and he´s on our side].
And he saw Conan in action in his opening chapters (I think it was 913 or sth?).
And well, I think if I were for 10 years in coma and suffer memory loss, I wouldnt kick instantly asses aswell.
Btw: Its still possible that Kuroda = Amuros boss = Tsutomu
We still dont know which agency Tsutomu belonged to. Maybe it wasnt MI6 but PSB/NPA?
But I guess we agree that Kuroda =/= BO, but more likely = Amuros boss/ or Tsutomu.
But most important : A good character.

About Rumi
I guess Ais reaction is enough: She´s good aswell.

About Wakita
So since 2/3 suspects are obviously good - I tend to believe the third one isnt.
Hints:
- Jokes about Rum (if he was Tsutomu, would he call Rum weak? Since he didnt catch him for 17 years, I doubt that).
- Didnt met Ai yet (other two did).
Gosho even managed to let him appear at Agasas without Ai being there.
- The Yaiba-hint:
I have another interpretation: Since this is the Rum arc one might see Rum as the boss (of this arc)/the one with the highest position.
So Wakita as his representative is actually the "second in command that appears in todays episode".

I actually dont see Wakita being interested in Kogoros protection. (still possible though).
Since 977 there wasnt one single panel that he spend a thought about Kogoro, but rather Conan/Shinichi.
(if "This one is pretty quick witted.." is related to Conan)
There was no single panel showing him watching the street, the window of Kogoro or whatever.
Additionally he only wants to accompany Kogoro during a murder - not a regular - case.
So I believe that he actually is after Conan and is using Kogoro only as an excuse.
Why? I tell that later.
I admit though that there wasnt any clear sign of interest in Conan in 975-977, but more in his later appearences.


Isn't Rum's latest mission given to Bourbon makes Bourbon his own representative?

Theres a difference between a representative and a simple worker/peon.
Try to see it as "secretary/right hand vs simple peon".
Vermouth in relation to the boss is a more a representative while
f.e. Korn is a peon.

And now your/the most deciding question:
The thing is, if Rum already has one representative working for him why is he relying on Bourbon?


Its a test and a trap.
Its quite interesting that in polls most people voted for "Sniffing about rats in the BO" as Rums objective.
Now Rum (from his pov) gives Bourbon a perfect mission to prove his loyalty.
In the context of the manga nearing towards his end (were in a do or die situation) and the last big clash being near (Bo vs Conan & friends)
I think every character will find his ultimate position.
So this will be a test that Bourbon will end up failing and therefore dying or escaping and fight on Conans side.


To sum it up / what I believe:
Rum met Conan and Kogoro.
Rum noticed Conans skills, but didnt get to see sleeping Kogoro.
Rum saw 3 murder cases being solved with Conan nearby but without seeing sleeping Kogoro.
Rum suspects Conan of being someone else.
Rum therefore sends his representative to do that job [Wakita] since Rum is on his own mission [killing Mary].
Rum tests Bourbon.

So is there a person who noticed Conan skills and already saw him solve 3 murder cases but didnt ever saw sleeping Kogoro?
There is.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 329

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 15th, 2018, 11:16 am

dccd wrote:Sth to read for those long days.

@Zero

Ah ok, so I missunderstood you about Sera.
So I think it would be correct to assume that Wakita somehow knows, just like Sera that Kogoro is a fraud, but the former felt a hard time to pin the stuff on Conan.

I misread this part.

A double playing Tom Cruise makes the double as Tom Cruise for the time being.

Erm no. Tom Cruise stays Tom Cruise and the double stays the double - just preteding to be TC - not actually being TC.

To make it short:
Kuroda is obv a good character
Rumi is one aswell.
So only Wakita is left for the bad guy-position.

About Kuroda
Well... Kuroda says its on his own. "Your the brain behind sleeping Kogoro".
I think Gosho didnt chose those words just4fun but to point out: Hey, this guy knows about Conan [and he´s on our side].
And he saw Conan in action in his opening chapters (I think it was 913 or sth?).
And well, I think if I were for 10 years in coma and suffer memory loss, I wouldnt kick instantly asses aswell.
Btw: Its still possible that Kuroda = Amuros boss = Tsutomu
We still dont know which agency Tsutomu belonged to. Maybe it wasnt MI6 but PSB/NPA?
But I guess we agree that Kuroda =/= BO, but more likely = Amuros boss/ or Tsutomu.
But most important : A good character.

About Rumi
I guess Ais reaction is enough: She´s good aswell.

About Wakita
So since 2/3 suspects are obviously good - I tend to believe the third one isnt.
Hints:
- Jokes about Rum (if he was Tsutomu, would he call Rum weak? Since he didnt catch him for 17 years, I doubt that).
- Didnt met Ai yet (other two did).
Gosho even managed to let him appear at Agasas without Ai being there.
- The Yaiba-hint:
I have another interpretation: Since this is the Rum arc one might see Rum as the boss (of this arc)/the one with the highest position.
So Wakita as his representative is actually the "second in command that appears in todays episode".

I actually dont see Wakita being interested in Kogoros protection. (still possible though).
Since 977 there wasnt one single panel that he spend a thought about Kogoro, but rather Conan/Shinichi.
(if "This one is pretty quick witted.." is related to Conan)
There was no single panel showing him watching the street, the window of Kogoro or whatever.
Additionally he only wants to accompany Kogoro during a murder - not a regular - case.
So I believe that he actually is after Conan and is using Kogoro only as an excuse.
Why? I tell that later.
I admit though that there wasnt any clear sign of interest in Conan in 975-977, but more in his later appearences.


Isn't Rum's latest mission given to Bourbon makes Bourbon his own representative?

Theres a difference between a representative and a simple worker/peon.
Try to see it as "secretary/right hand vs simple peon".
Vermouth in relation to the boss is a more a representative while
f.e. Korn is a peon.

And now your/the most deciding question:
The thing is, if Rum already has one representative working for him why is he relying on Bourbon?


Its a test and a trap.
Its quite interesting that in polls most people voted for "Sniffing about rats in the BO" as Rums objective.
Now Rum (from his pov) gives Bourbon a perfect mission to prove his loyalty.
In the context of the manga nearing towards his end (were in a do or die situation) and the last big clash being near (Bo vs Conan & friends)
I think every character will find his ultimate position.
So this will be a test that Bourbon will end up failing and therefore dying or escaping and fight on Conans side.


To sum it up / what I believe:
Rum met Conan and Kogoro.
Rum noticed Conans skills, but didnt get to see sleeping Kogoro.
Rum saw 3 murder cases being solved with Conan nearby but without seeing sleeping Kogoro.
Rum suspects Conan of being someone else.
Rum therefore sends his representative to do that job [Wakita] since Rum is on his own mission [killing Mary].
Rum tests Bourbon.

So is there a person who noticed Conan skills and already saw him solve 3 murder cases but didnt ever saw sleeping Kogoro?
There is.


I'm giving you a something more about the three, let's start with Kuroda,
a)He hasn't seen Conan solving a case. His introductory case was solved by him and Kansuke, he was there at the blogger's death case but he came much later after everything was done and dusted and Conan used Agasa to solve that case. He only saw Conan in his full form during burning tent murder case, and his statement came much before of that case. Kuroda knows from a different source that Conan is not an ordinary little kid. Infact dring the blogger case, he told Conan to treat him well, "Yoroshku". So Kuroda knows that Conan is the brain behind Kogoro and it's not because he has seen Conan in action.Given that he has ties with NPA, gets his transfer even before he solved the case at Nagano, tells me that he's a boss character and probably boss of Amuro and the person who handles Kohji case.
There's also another pointer that he isn't Papakai, he's not as smart as Papakai. It's stated that Papakai is smarter than Shuichi and is as smart and has a great memory, much like Shukichi. Given these two traits, he's yet to notice the bruise in Haneda's palm. Also Akai Tsutomu clashed with BO/Rum during the Kohji case, he would know for sure that Rumi isn't Rum.(Rum's eye injury was caused by him.) also Kuroda's coma is not a fake thing. It's a logistical nightmare to mimic someone who has lost an eye and good amount of face, yet genuinely forgetting to colour the white hair black. Also Tsutomu had straight hair, Kuroda's hair is curly. So if Tsutomu induced curls in his hair(as Kuroda) then why he didn't dye it? These points nullifies that a Kuroda swap happened and that tsutomu is Kuroda. I would rather think Kuroda was the inspector/spy who handled Kohji case.
b) Rumi is a tricky customer. She messed up the crime scene, took away the dying message and probably she herself created the fake dying message. (If you look closely, you can see that the mirror had backing. So it can't get cut by scissors. There aren't scratch marks suggesting the letters were gouged out, two bigger portions of the mirror are also missing. Which implies that it got broken due to impact. Now if someone just switches on the tap, ta-da, from this broken mirror, we'll get the perfect fake clue. Given her intelligence I won't put it past Rumi. I think she's the one who created this message and has the stuff/true dying message with her.) Consider this, if the current day scissors case didn't happen, what Conan and Akai would have made out of Haneda Kohji case? They wouldn't have considered that mirror as a clue. So why BO is considering it as a clue? Who was there in BO who wanted to make this as a clue? Given Rumi's tactics and the APTX list and Haibara getting triggered, I would think Rumi is an ex-BO/Rum's ex-agent who is trying to pull one over her past boss.
c) Now Wakita is the perfect Tsutomu candidate(given the hints that Mary and Gin uses same stupid nonsensical idiom, Wakita's unorthodox interjections like Shuichi, rampant use of proverbs, slyness, being very serious when Shinichi's name being mentioned.) He's here because he thinks, Rum will make a move on Kogoro(as he was involved in soul detective case), Gin will try to kill Kogoro(for becoming a constant foil in Bo's plans) and Rum might snoop around Shinichi(as it'll help Rum to make Gin look like a buffoon.)Wakita is a sure-shot BO but a benevolent one like Bourbon, while Rumi is a sure-shot BO but is sort of a grey one, Kuroda is not BO and a protector.(His name has the Kanji of protector/Asaka?)
Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » January 20th, 2018, 8:45 pm

Gotta wonder whether the theories about the shogi piece may be missing the mark and have settled on Uma a bit too quickly?

For starters, how do we know for sure the promoted bishop side is the one that gives the message? Maybe it's supposed to be the (unpromoted) bishop side of the piece? (heck, maybe it's supposed to be both of them)
Also, even if it's meant to be the promoted bishop side, there's an essential reading that seems to have not been considered:
馬 can be read as "me" (め)
め is also the kana used for eye (目 or 眼). Eye can lead to a much more flexible meaning than trying to force the letters UMA as a solution.

Perhaps at the very least, Rumi interpreted the piece as some sort of message about the eye, cause she grasped it when the camping case dudes talked about how that one guy almost lost his eye.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 21st, 2018, 1:53 am

Kor wrote:Gotta wonder whether the theories about the shogi piece may be missing the mark and have settled on Uma a bit too quickly?

For starters, how do we know for sure the promoted bishop side is the one that gives the message? Maybe it's supposed to be the (unpromoted) bishop side of the piece? (heck, maybe it's supposed to be both of them)
Also, even if it's meant to be the promoted bishop side, there's an essential reading that seems to have not been considered:
馬 can be read as "me" (め)
め is also the kana used for eye (目 or 眼). Eye can lead to a much more flexible meaning than trying to force the letters UMA as a solution.

Perhaps at the very least, Rumi interpreted the piece as some sort of message about the eye, cause she grasped it when the camping case dudes talked about how that one guy almost lost his eye.


To Elaborate your point more, the piece is not even an UMA, it's just the abbreviation. There's no such shogi piece called uma, the piece in question is Ryu-ma or Tatsu-ma. The speculation about uma was only highlighted to frame Muga as Rum and a additional chess piece was conveniently invented and was put on an imaginary chess board.

I try to speculate it a bit differently(as I don't like to invent stuff/or frame anyone while I've no proof of what the dying message is.)
It is evident that Haneda died with the shogi piece in his hand while holding scissors in a defensive grip to hide the shogi piece. That sort of a hand position looks like a ancient dagger axe(Ka). Now this Ryu-ma can also be Kun read as Tatsuma. So I think Ka-Tatsuma, is the dying message.

I don't consider the mirror clue as a clue left by Haneda anymore. If you look closely, the mirror has a backing, the missing pieces shows no sign of scratch marks to suggest that they were gouged out under water, there are several big pieces which are also missing, which didn't have anything written on it, given lack of water on the backing of the glass, I think it was a fake clue created by the same person who opened Haneda's palm and took away the shogi piece. If there's a broken mirror with some parts of the writing missing/or someone purposefully hides them, and then opens a nearby tap and ensures that a scissor is spotted in the debris, ta-da we have a fake clue created for those who know about a CMP reaction.
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » January 21st, 2018, 3:47 am

Might u paint a pic bc Im not sure about the dagger axe shape.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 329

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 21st, 2018, 5:37 am

http://i.imgur.com/5JK7hTT.png this is the scissor grip,

this is a dagger axe, https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0278/4 ... 110897.jpg

There is nothing ambiguous. But anyhow my speculation is not something which forces illogical/unverified/unrealistic assumptions on the crime scene. This is just something which tries to connect dots in Kohji case, not create convenient dots so that a certain and predetermined figure can be drawn.
Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » January 21st, 2018, 7:51 am

Aren't you specifically trying to bring the dagger axe thing into it so you'll have a convenient "ka" to help you with the Katsumata interpretation? Has the dagger axe been mentioned in the manga recently so to aid the reader in coming up with such a solution?
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K.O.R.N
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby K.O.R.N » January 21st, 2018, 9:42 am

Wakita is introduced as a Tokyoite, with personalities of a good person. And since he's a Rum suspect, and now wanders around freely even to Shinichi's house, and called "Rum" a weak member before, this is a setup for us to believe that he's a good guy, which I don't think is the case. The red herring of Wakita is even buffed in Chapter 1008, where Rum's message to Bourbon could mean that Wakita is to be pursued (Rum knows Wakita is on the move and is around the area). I believe him being Rum is just a red herring and it still stands after 1008.

And since he's Kogorou's apprentice now, it means that more than likely he's trying to gain information from Kogorou, from Kogoru's acceptance to investigate Kouji case. This also strongly suggests that Wakita was involved with the case back then, together with Rum, which is why he's interested in spying on Kogorou now. And because of that, I think Wakita could be interested in Kogorou's protection, after all.
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Zerozaki4869
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 21st, 2018, 10:16 am

Kor wrote:Aren't you specifically trying to bring the dagger axe thing into it so you'll have a convenient "ka" to help you with the Katsumata interpretation? Has the dagger axe been mentioned in the manga recently so to aid the reader in coming up with such a solution?


Nope the dagger axe comes naturally, that hand position is quite revealing. And no I'm not fixated on Katsumata,(Is the Shogi piece being mentioned explicitly as something which was in Haneda's hand and was taken after his death? The answer is no, but it's not an illogical deduction to make. As the mark matches, and the bruises show that the scissor was held in a defensive grip and not in a cutting grip.)
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 329

Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Zerozaki4869 » January 21st, 2018, 10:22 am

K.O.R.N wrote:Wakita is introduced as a Tokyoite, with personalities of a good person. And since he's a Rum suspect, and now wanders around freely even to Shinichi's house, and called "Rum" a weak member before, this is a setup for us to believe that he's a good guy, which I don't think is the case. The red herring of Wakita is even buffed in Chapter 1008, where Rum's message to Bourbon could mean that Wakita is to be pursued (Rum knows Wakita is on the move and is around the area). I believe him being Rum is just a red herring and it still stands after 1008.

And since he's Kogorou's apprentice now, it means that more than likely he's trying to gain information from Kogorou, from Kogoru's acceptance to investigate Kouji case. This also strongly suggests that Wakita was involved with the case back then, together with Rum, which is why he's interested in spying on Kogorou now. And because of that, I think Wakita could be interested in Kogorou's protection, after all.


On the contrary he is slowly becoming a second Subaru. He was introduced with a massive Rum hint and then we get a hint that it's the left eye of Rum which is Prosthetic.(The Footie goodies case before Kyoto arc.) Now from there this guy is being shown to be so suspicious that he virtually becomes the weakest Rum suspect,(Sticking with Kogoro no matter what, apprehending Rum's move on Shinichi), he's a Subaru in making, just like Rumi is an Amuro in making and Kuroda is a Sera in making.
dccd
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby dccd » January 21st, 2018, 5:24 pm

First of all: Do we agree that Kuroda + Rumi are good characters?
Yes or no?
Answer should be obv.

Next step:
Is there sth that Kuroda + Rumi have in common contrary to Wakita?
Yep, both of them have a damaged right eye.
But Wakitas damaged eye is his left one.

So.... While Rumi+Kuroda were attacked by the same person [a bo-guy]
...Wakita wasnt.
Since I doubt that there are 2 different bo-guys who like aiming for eyes, I guess
Wakita was attacked by a good guy (probably Tsutomu or Shuichi - maybe he was looking for Shu at Agasas)
which means he´s a bad character.

Bingo.

E: To me the Subaru of the arc (the suspect with the most suspicious moments and screentime) obv by far is Rumi.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
Adel34
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Adel34 » January 21st, 2018, 6:03 pm

I have a question. If you take into account how long the past arcs have been going on, could anyone tell me the approximate date of when Rum will be revealed? Ignore the potential hiatuses.
kentasaiba
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby kentasaiba » January 21st, 2018, 6:35 pm

Adel34 wrote:I have a question. If you take into account how long the past arcs have been going on, could anyone tell me the approximate date of when Rum will be revealed? Ignore the potential hiatuses.

2-4 years.
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Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Postby Kor » January 21st, 2018, 6:43 pm

Adel34 wrote:I have a question. If you take into account how long the past arcs have been going on, could anyone tell me the approximate date of when Rum will be revealed? Ignore the potential hiatuses.


Hard to ignore the hiatuses when you involve the word "date" (plus hiatuses are all we seem to have nowadays so that's also why it's hard to ignore them).
Anywho, you can't really determine something like that based on past arcs because their length has been different from each other.
Vermouth stuff took a bit less than 4.5 years with roughly 200 chapters.
Kir stuff took 2.5 years with a bit over 100 chapters.
Bourbon stuff took a bit over 6.5 years with almost 280 chapters.

Currently we're like 3.5 years into the Rum stuff with exactly 110 chapters.

Now, the latest chapter in the manga had very rushed elements. Once we're out of the current hiatus, we may see if Gosho intends to continue rushing forward (or at least reveal/resolve stuff at a faster pacing), or he'll go back to his slow pacing self. This is probably what may help us determine if Gosho plans on revealing Rum soon or not soon at all.

All of that said, another way that may be of some indication is specific plot beats that repeat between the arcs. In the Bourbon arc for example, you have that big shot in chapter 800 in which you see all the Bourbon suspects being suspicious. 20 and something files later, Bourbon was revealed. We likewise had a similar shot at the end of 1005 with all the Rum suspects, so can it be that Gosho thinks of revealing Rum soon? Maybe, who knows. Until the latest chapter I honestly thought this arc still has a lot to go cause there have been hardly any solid hints about Rum and Wakita hasn't done anything yet besides his intro case. Now... dunno.

So this was a very long answer that's actually an non-answer. Sorry :-X
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