Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » April 21st, 2016, 2:19 pm

Kor wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Spoiler:
He'd still hate Shuichi even if the misunderstanding was cleared up, I think—it'd just go from, "You forced Scotch to kill himself... bastard!", to, "You let Scotch die... bastard!"


That'd make Amuro's character even more exhausting, not to mention it'd make him seem like a petty clownish drama queen (well, he's already a bit of a clown, though).


Spoiler:
Scotch was able to pull the trigger on his gun, meaning that Shuichi's/Dai's grip loosened—he did let Scotch die.

In a way, they were all responsible for what happened.

If anything, Scotch misunderstood the situation, and who could blame him? How could he or Shuichi/Dai know who was running up those stairs?

And aren't all grudges based on a immature ability to overcome and let go of something? Because that's exactly what Rei/Tooru has been going through—a greatly magnified and protracted version of Shiho's/Ai's moment of blaming Shinichi/Conan for Akemi's death.


By the time Scarlet Showdown was resolved, what did his character become to you? Just how much potential was wasted, in your eyes?

After Scarlet Showdown, at this point, does it matter if he still holds a grudge once he learns the truth, or lets it go? To you, this entire detour the story has taken must've been seven-eight years worth of, "Well, that was predictable and pointless." You once posted Gosho had become too predictable for you to actually get angry, right?

If he's just plain "exhausting," now, what's the difference, now? Just "more exhausting?" How much is required for it to really matter?
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby rfsuki » April 21st, 2016, 3:08 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Spoiler:
Scotch was able to pull the trigger on his gun, meaning that Shuichi's/Dai's grip loosened—he did let Scotch die.




Spoiler:
I think Shuichi is not to blame on this. At that moment Scotch had agreed with Shuichi's plan and he was about to return the gun to Shuichi. That's why both of their grip loosened before they heard the footsteps. However, Scotch's thumb was still placed on the trigger and it was too fast for Shuichi to do anything.

I just feel that the way you wrote "he did let Scotch die" is a little unfair to Shuichi. From the viewpoint of a reader, I think Shuichi is completely innocent and he did try everything he could to save Scotch. But yes Shuichi still thought that he was partly responsible for what happened and perhaps that's the reason why he no longer drinks Scotch (one of his favourite) and doesn't want to explain himself to Rei (poor Shuichi).

I'm not a native English speaker anyway. I only expressed my feelings while reading that sentence. If I got you wrong, I apologize for that.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » April 21st, 2016, 3:28 pm

rfsuki wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Spoiler:
Scotch was able to pull the trigger on his gun, meaning that Shuichi's/Dai's grip loosened—he did let Scotch die.




Spoiler:
I think Shuichi is not to blame on this. At that moment Scotch had agreed with Shuichi's plan and he was about to return the gun to Shuichi. That's why both of their grip loosened before they heard the footsteps. However, Scotch's thumb was still placed on the trigger and it was too fast for Shuichi to do anything.

I just feel that the way you wrote "he did let Scotch die" is a little unfair to Shuichi. From the viewpoint of a reader, I think Shuichi is completely innocent and he did try everything he could to save Scotch. But yes Shuichi still thought that he was partly responsible for what happened and perhaps that's the reason why he no longer drinks Scotch (one of his favourite) and doesn't want to explain himself to Rei (poor Shuichi).

I'm not a native English speaker anyway. I only expressed my feelings while reading that sentence. If I got you wrong, I apologize for that.


Spoiler:
I'm not saying he's the MOST responsible. I think this event was a tragedy, but to say no one was responsible? I don't think so.

Scotch was the antsy one, here—Shuichi/Dai not being prepared for someone coming so much that his grip would slacken that much? For him, a man with his calm, skill and focus, that's a pretty big mistake. Shuichi/Dai shouldn't have let his grip on the gun slacken at all—only Scotch should've done so.

Shuichi only suspected Rei of being a spy while he was in the BO—he didn't truly find out until just before Scarlet Showdown. Telling Rei/Tooru the true circumstances, then, would've risked outed himself as a spy... and Rei might've just gone to the BO and ratted him out.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby bash7353 » April 21st, 2016, 4:31 pm

It is certainly true that Scotch gets Akai's gun in order to shoot himself because he sees no other way out of the situation he's in. Akai is able to hold onto the revolver's cylinder, so that Scotch can't pull the trigger. He explains that he is an FBI agent, and that he wants to help Scotch escape. Scotch says he agrees.

Now, I suppose you could interpret this as Scotch only pretending to agree in order for Akai to let down his guard, so that he can go through with his initial plan and shoot himself, but I don't think that's accurate. I think Scotch genuinely wants to escape with Akai's help, but when he hears footsteps approaching, he shoots himself because he thinks the enemy is closing in and escaping isn't an option after all. From Akai's thoughts it's sounds like the primary objective wasn't really to kill himself, but actually to destroy his phone. I suppose Scotch is afraid that the Black Organisation might be able to deduce things from the phone's contents which could put his family in danger or something similar.

That is what actually has happened, but when it comes to Amuro's grudge, actuality doesn't matter much. What is important is what Amuro thinks, and we got a glimpse of that in Chapter 956. Amuro believes that Akai has killed Scotch. The fact that Akai says he has probably contributes to that misconception. Now, it is true that Amuro does use the word 'suicide' when thinking about what has happened. He does realise the whole thing looks like a suicide, but still, he believes Akai has meant to end his friend's life.

Referring to both what happened and what Amuro thinks happened as 'suicide' might be technically correct, but there is a clear distinction that I believe is quite important. There is a difference in terms of intent. Amuro believes there has been intent to kill Scotch when in reality Akai just hasn't been able to prevent Scotch from killing himself. Legally speaking, that makes a huge difference. Morally speaking, too, if you ask me.

I suppose we can't say for sure what happens if and when Amuro realises the truth, but it will definitely change his view of that day's events dramatically. Maybe he continues to hold the same grudge against Akai, just for a slightly different reason, but it is also possible he realises that Akai and the FBI are not the enemy.

To me it seems quite plain that the latter is way more likely. I think it's been made very clear what Akai's long term plan is. If you look at the conversation between Amuro and Akai during Scarlet, you can see that Akai wants the two of them and their respective agencies to work together against the Black Organisation. Akai tells Amuro not to focus on what's right under his eyes, he tells Amuro not to mistake the real enemy for... well he doesn't say that, but I presume he means for an opportunity to get back at someone he hates or something. Though that last bit isn't in the text at all, that's just my interpretation.

In Scarlet Epilogue, Akai explains that he has shown himself to Amuro undisguised on purpose, presumably to plant the idea that Akai could still be alive in Amuro's head, so that he'd go and figure the whole thing out. It is weird that Akai who knows about what has happened with Scotch doesn't realise Amuro isn't going to work together with him just like that, but Conan who has no idea about Scotch is able to predict what Amuro does, but I wouldn't read too much into that.

Akai essentially says that part of the point of the whole Scarlet thing has been to convey to Amuro what his 'real intention' is. It's not that easy to get Amuro to work together with Akai, but I'm not even entirely sure Amuro fully understands the intention at this point. But still, Amuro slowly learning more and more about Akai's current situation - him being Okiya, for instance - as well as the truth about Scotch, and therefore getting closer and closer to Akai and Amuro working together seems like the logical continuation to me.

Obviously, just because Akai would like something to happen doesn't mean it definitely does happen, but the way that this plan has been shown in the series, I think it is pretty likely that it will actually lead somewhere at some point. It's gonna be quite a while, certainly, anything else would be a surprise in this series, but I'm pretty sure it will.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby kkuuddoo » April 21st, 2016, 4:37 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
rfsuki wrote:
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:

Spoiler:
Shuichi only suspected Rei of being a spy while he was in the BO—he didn't truly find out until just before Scarlet Showdown. Telling Rei/Tooru the true circumstances, then, would've risked outed himself as a spy... and Rei might've just gone to the BO and ratted him out.


Spoiler:
I think Amuro was aware of Akai being an FBI shortly after he was kicked out of the BO not just before the scarlet showdown, I mean he should have known that way before or else it wont make much sense.

I mean I think it was clear that he knew akai was a FBI rat since shiho ( kaito ) and he talked on the mystery train

Just a thought
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby Nemomon » April 21st, 2016, 5:14 pm

bash7353 wrote:Now, I suppose you could interpret this as Scotch only pretending to agree in order for Akai to let down his guard, so that he can go through with his initial plan and shoot himself, but I don't think that's accurate. I think Scotch genuinely wants to escape with Akai's help, but when he hears footsteps approaching, he shoots himself because he thinks the enemy is closing in and escaping isn't an option after all.


I also believe that Scotch is just pretending. There is also another version of this event. Schotch knows that Dai is a codenamed agent, and is just lying that he's a FBI's agent to lower his guard. We don't know why exactly Dai was there, but I also agree with the theory that he was sent by the BO to catch and/or kill the rat. Scotch probably knew that too. So, he also knew that Dai is going to tell him every fairy story he could come with just to lower his guard and bring him alive. He probably thought that Dai made up the story with the FBI too.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby Kor » April 21st, 2016, 9:22 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:By the time Scarlet Showdown was resolved, what did his character become to you? Just how much potential was wasted, in your eyes?

After Scarlet Showdown, at this point, does it matter if he still holds a grudge once he learns the truth, or lets it go? To you, this entire detour the story has taken must've been seven-eight years worth of, "Well, that was predictable and pointless." You once posted Gosho had become too predictable for you to actually get angry, right?

If he's just plain "exhausting," now, what's the difference, now? Just "more exhausting?" How much is required for it to really matter?


Why is it that almost each and every time you reply to my posts, you always address my character and assume things about me? (not only me, mind you. You've been doing this with some other people too). Wanna talk about exhausting? THIS is exhausting. You may have not been aware you're constantly doing this (giving you the benefit of the doubt here), but it's worth pointing out cause this has been quite a trend for you.

I'm not really the issue here (here being, a discussion thread in a forum about a Japanese comic book), but your post seems to suggest that I sort of am. Your post is forcing me to defend myself, but there should be no reason for me to defend my "self" in a discussion about a Japanese comic book. That sort of situation never needs to occur. There's also not much here to actually respond to, because at the very best, it's just accusatory of... something. It's also diverging from what I originally wrote and goes to unrelated areas such as the Scarlet Showdown, and wasted potential, and if Gosho had become too predictable for me, and what do those things even have to do with what I wrote? (I like the "angry" part. That one really highlights the ad hominem). This is also a bit of a recurring thing you've been doing - derailing your own posts from the actual matter and make arguments go to several different lines that are redundant and unnecessary.

I merely pointed out that the outcome you're predicting for Amuro (being still angry at Akai even after he learns the truth), is undesirable because it'd just harm his character even more and how we perceive it. Why you decided to go from this to... all of these other things in your post? No clue. (Or is it because of my added snark about Amuro already not being such a glamorous character anyway?)

I'm also not so sure what your post is trying to achieve. Is it trying to change my mind? To show me that what I wrote is incorrect? Again, not sure here.

Some people may say negative things about the series. They aren't the issue, their mindsets aren't the issue, their emotions aren't the issue, nothing of their personality is the issue. So you should never try to direct your thoughts at such elements, and don't try to make them the issue. The only real "issue" in a discussion is what they write and their arguments. (referring to the common folk here, not to intentional trouble makers)

Basically, tackle the position and arguments of people, not the people themselves.

As for what there is to sort of reply to...

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Spoiler:
Scotch was able to pull the trigger on his gun, meaning that Shuichi's/Dai's grip loosened—he did let Scotch die.

In a way, they were all responsible for what happened.

If anything, Scotch misunderstood the situation, and who could blame him? How could he or Shuichi/Dai know who was running up those stairs?

And aren't all grudges based on a immature ability to overcome and let go of something? Because that's exactly what Rei/Tooru has been going through—a greatly magnified and protracted version of Shiho's/Ai's moment of blaming Shinichi/Conan for Akemi's death.



Hating on Akai in such circumstance is silly and petty. If Gosho wants Amuro to seem silly and petty, sure go with that outcome. Otherwise... not really a good approach to a compelling conflict readers can get behind.
I don't think Akai's really responsible here to anything. That's exactly what makes this misunderstanding dumb on a narrative level. Amuro's been hating Akai wrongfully. Akai was never at fault, so Amuro's entire "journey" so far has been unjustified by the very text of the manga.
Also, no, grudges aren't universally based on an immature ability to overcome and let go of something. If I kill someone's entire family and they hold a grudge against me, it seems like a perfectly justified grudge. Some grudges may be silly, but then it's just a case by case basis. In the case of "Amuro holding a grudge against Akai that Akai failed to save Scotch who killed himself even though Akai tried to stop him", well... that grudge is silly, hence it'd make Amuro seem silly, hence this doesn't seem like a desirable outcome.
There is no real parallel between Ai's thing and Amuro's thing. For once, the circumstances are completely different, and the narratives themselves are different too.

At the end of the day, though, I don't think the outcome you're describing will happen. Sure, Amuro might not believe Akai at first, but I doubt he's going to shift his resentment to the form you're describing.

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:If he's just plain "exhausting," now, what's the difference, now? Just "more exhausting?" How much is required for it to really matter?


Who said it doesn't matter already? Amuro is a character that has yet to contribute much (if anything at all) to the series, and the entire story arc that focused on his character was overly long, redundant and really sort of pointless.
But here's the thing, his character can always get worse.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » April 22nd, 2016, 2:55 am

Nemomon wrote:I also believe that Scotch is just pretending. There is also another version of this event. Schotch knows that Dai is a codenamed agent, and is just lying that he's a FBI's agent to lower his guard. We don't know why exactly Dai was there, but I also agree with the theory that he was sent by the BO to catch and/or kill the rat. Scotch probably knew that too. So, he also knew that Dai is going to tell him every fairy story he could come with just to lower his guard and bring him alive. He probably thought that Dai made up the story with the FBI too.


I don't think bash claimed that was his position.

Of course Scotch knows Shuichi/Dai is codenamed, if Rei knew, and referred to him by said codename.

I think Scotch looked too panicked to be faking it, when he heard those footfalls.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby MoonRaven » April 22nd, 2016, 9:25 am

Nemomon wrote:
bash7353 wrote:Now, I suppose you could interpret this as Scotch only pretending to agree in order for Akai to let down his guard, so that he can go through with his initial plan and shoot himself, but I don't think that's accurate. I think Scotch genuinely wants to escape with Akai's help, but when he hears footsteps approaching, he shoots himself because he thinks the enemy is closing in and escaping isn't an option after all.


I also believe that Scotch is just pretending. There is also another version of this event. Schotch knows that Dai is a codenamed agent, and is just lying that he's a FBI's agent to lower his guard. We don't know why exactly Dai was there, but I also agree with the theory that he was sent by the BO to catch and/or kill the rat. Scotch probably knew that too. So, he also knew that Dai is going to tell him every fairy story he could come with just to lower his guard and bring him alive. He probably thought that Dai made up the story with the FBI too.

Was Akai codenamed by this point? I was under impression that he because Rye only shortly before the busted meeting that forced him to leave BO. We don't know after all when the Scotch-Dai confrontation happened, only that it was after Sera's flashback from four years ago and before Akai left BO two years ago.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby Serinox » April 22nd, 2016, 9:37 am

MoonRaven wrote:
Nemomon wrote:
bash7353 wrote:Now, I suppose you could interpret this as Scotch only pretending to agree in order for Akai to let down his guard, so that he can go through with his initial plan and shoot himself, but I don't think that's accurate. I think Scotch genuinely wants to escape with Akai's help, but when he hears footsteps approaching, he shoots himself because he thinks the enemy is closing in and escaping isn't an option after all.


I also believe that Scotch is just pretending. There is also another version of this event. Schotch knows that Dai is a codenamed agent, and is just lying that he's a FBI's agent to lower his guard. We don't know why exactly Dai was there, but I also agree with the theory that he was sent by the BO to catch and/or kill the rat. Scotch probably knew that too. So, he also knew that Dai is going to tell him every fairy story he could come with just to lower his guard and bring him alive. He probably thought that Dai made up the story with the FBI too.

Was Akai codenamed by this point? I was under impression that he because Rye only shortly before the busted meeting that forced him to leave BO. We don't know after all when the Scotch-Dai confrontation happened, only that it was after Sera's flashback from four years ago and before Akai left BO two years ago.

Yes, Amuro addressed him as Rye (ライ) during the flashback in File 955.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby Nemomon » April 22nd, 2016, 9:52 am

MoonRaven wrote:
Nemomon wrote:
bash7353 wrote:Now, I suppose you could interpret this as Scotch only pretending to agree in order for Akai to let down his guard, so that he can go through with his initial plan and shoot himself, but I don't think that's accurate. I think Scotch genuinely wants to escape with Akai's help, but when he hears footsteps approaching, he shoots himself because he thinks the enemy is closing in and escaping isn't an option after all.


I also believe that Scotch is just pretending. There is also another version of this event. Schotch knows that Dai is a codenamed agent, and is just lying that he's a FBI's agent to lower his guard. We don't know why exactly Dai was there, but I also agree with the theory that he was sent by the BO to catch and/or kill the rat. Scotch probably knew that too. So, he also knew that Dai is going to tell him every fairy story he could come with just to lower his guard and bring him alive. He probably thought that Dai made up the story with the FBI too.

Was Akai codenamed by this point? I was under impression that he because Rye only shortly before the busted meeting that forced him to leave BO. We don't know after all when the Scotch-Dai confrontation happened, only that it was after Sera's flashback from four years ago and before Akai left BO two years ago.


I think at this point he was already codenamed. On the train station where Sera recognized Amuro as Bourbon Akai was along with Scotch and Bourbon. I find it hardly possible that two codenamed agents would be accompanied by a non-codenamed agent, or by a low grade agent. Not to mention that it didn't look that Akai is their servant. I think at that point Akai already was Rye.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby Spimer » April 22nd, 2016, 10:14 am

@Nemonon: there's a post above yours by Serinox that shows that Amuro called Akai "Rye" in the file 955 flashback.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby Nemomon » April 22nd, 2016, 10:18 am

Spimer wrote:@Nemonon: there's a post above yours by Serinox that shows that Amuro called Akai "Rye" in the file 955 flashback.


Yeah, but Serinox wrote their while I was writing mine ;).
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby Spimer » April 22nd, 2016, 11:54 am

Ah. I see. I am sorry if I sounded too bossy. Anyway. To contribute something...
Akai had his codename back then, Scotch had his as well... But it's unclear wheter Amuro has his codename already.
In Scarlet showdown Akai says "Been a while, Bourbon... No... Now it's Amuro Tooru - kun, isn't it?"
It's my impression, I might be mistaken, but Akai sounds like he's recently known about Amuro's name (both his alias and his real name).
So maybe they did call each other by their codenames like other BO members do.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 954-957

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » April 22nd, 2016, 3:17 pm

Spimer wrote:Ah. I see. I am sorry if I sounded too bossy. Anyway. To contribute something...
Akai had his codename back then, Scotch had his as well... But it's unclear wheter Amuro has his codename already.
In Scarlet showdown Akai says "Been a while, Bourbon... No... Now it's Amuro Tooru - kun, isn't it?"
It's my impression, I might be mistaken, but Akai sounds like he's recently known about Amuro's name (both his alias and his real name).
So maybe they did call each other by their codenames like other BO members do.


The Girl Band Case flashback was from four years ago, but it's hard to say whether Scotch died in the same year. I don't think anyone but Scotch knew Bourbon's real name, at that time. How Shuichi found out about Rei Furuya? Who knows if that'll be explained.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)

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