Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Kudo Shinchi
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby Kudo Shinchi » July 31st, 2017, 2:09 pm

Long post incoming...

Doing just mysteries, minus the serialized plot, I don't think most of those segments of the fanbase (more power to them) would really care.


This is correct. To say that most people who follow DC do so for the BO plot is to project the interests of the international (specifically the Western) fanbase onto the Japanese one. It's hard to appreciate for people who live outside of Japan, but DC really is a (pop) cultural institution there, the kind of staple of television that families can sit around and watch at random without necessarily being fluent with the broader storyline (akin to Doctor Who in Britain). The movie franchise officially achieved blockbuster status with The Darkest Nightmare, and between it, the anime, the manga, the merchandise, and cultural influence, DC is almost its own industry. Everyone knows DC, even if they don't watch it or follow it, just like everyone knows about the Simpsons (to borrow your example) even if they've never watched a single episode. I don't think it's far-fetched at all to suggest that most people who watch Japan in DC do so casually, just to enjoy a good mystery. The BO aspect is the least essential part of DC's domestic success, which not coincidentally is why Gosho can get away with doing BO cases so rarely. Whether or not the BO is important to DC's international success is a different discussion, but the point stands.

doesn't care to do his best unless he feels that ok isn't enough for sales.


I think you can argue that Gosho's writing has stagnated without presuming purely monetary motives.

Plus, The Simpsons, which started much sooner and more simplistic never even promised more than clever comedy and is still on the air.


I think this alludes to an interesting point, which is that many current fan's dissatisfaction with DC, including your's, Antiyonder, stems from the fact that it has demonstrated that it can and has been more than just an episodic mystery series with fun characters. For all that I just went on about how the BO plot isn't crucial to DC's appeal back at home, I do think that stuff like the BO plot line and various developmental arcs undergone by characters does elevate DC quality-wise and entertainment-wise above many other mystery shows, and among the Western fanbase it is definitely the reason that many fans are still on board. (And it's part of the reason you see so much interesting discussion and disagreement between DC fans in particular; aside from a consensus that everything up to the end of the Vermouth arc was basically perfect or at least very good, we can't seem to agree on what makes DC still worth following, whether it's the romance, the plot, the mysteries, the character dynamics, etc.). Just look at this forum: discussion of characters and of the BO plot far, far outstrips any sustained discussion of the cases, which are, whether we like it or not, the core of this mystery series and to what Gosho dedicates the majority of his brainpower.

The incongruence of (a subset of) the fandom's interests and Gosho's focus has created this curious phenomenon where fans determine the quality a mystery series on the basis of...well, everything besides its (case) mysteries. The majority of Gosho's work is essentially ignored in favor of what other people find compelling, which would not have happened if the series hadn't attracted people not necessarily super interested in the day-to-day cases in the first place (a testament to the initial quality of DC's myriad other elements). If the intellectual puzzles compelled not just because of their intrinsic design but of how they related to the characters and the overall plot, then it makes sense that a decrease in the quality of the latter two would leave people frustrated and uninterested in the former, no matter how technically well-written. Mind you, I'm very sympathetic to that perspective, and I myself, while still loving most of DC's cases just for their intellectual value, do find them enhanced when Gosho manages to ground them in thematic statements and character moments; it deepens the emotional resonance of what might otherwise be dry puzzlebox mechanics and as such allows the cases that fall short to shine regardless (personally, part of the reason I could never get into Kindaichi despite its sometimes brilliant mysteries was its utterly bland characters and lack of alternate sources of investment). But even with that said, I do find it genuinely odd how little attention is sometimes paid to the episodic cases themselves, which are probably the strongest thing in modern DC, though like everything else there has been a decline. To deny the detective aspects of of a detective series would be to deprive yourself of a pretty major source of the series' entertainment.

But I agree that Gosho once did a better job of juggling the multiple components of his series, and when they were all in sync he could produce magic like Desperate Revival (and really the entirety of the Vermouth arc). He still can; it just occurs much more rarely now. What we're seeing really is an inevitable result of overstretched length, of DC becoming a victim of its own success. DC today is not produced by the same mind of DR, of the 12 Million Hostages, of Black Impact, heck even of Clash of Red and Black. Gosho's been worn down by age and routine. He's no longer the magician who can tell emotionally rivetingly and narratively thrilling stories while still hiding that the status quo hasn't really been altered at all; his strings are more visible and his sleight-of-hands less graceful. But I don't believe, like some might, that Gosho has become a cynical money-grabber content to produce mediocrity as long as the bucks keep rolling in. He doesn't need the money, and being mangaka is brutal work. More importantly, he's still demonstrated a willingness to do new and fun things in his cases, even in recent years--like telling the cbar case from Kogoro's perspective-- and sometimes even subverting his own tropes (the alibi-locked-room that wasn't in the coffee aroma case, the outside culprit in the Red Woman case, the lack of a culprit in the Code of Love case, etc). Those cases see Gosho exploiting the audience's familiarity with his particular tropes to mislead and surprise them. Beyond that, Gosho still writes a healthy variety of case types and works to produce different scenarios to keep things interesting. And, sometimes, Gosho still manages to craft compelling character-based dramas within the framework of a traditional mystery, as in Sera's second case.

I think the problem, aside from Gosho understandably struggling to keep up the acrobatic act that he managed for the first 15 years or so, is two-fold: routine and popularity. Gosho has been doing this for so long that I think he sometimes slips into auto-pilot. There will be times, when you have been doing something for so long, that your mind simply dulls. For us, standing outside of brutal work schedules and not immersed in the same world for 22 years of our lives, coming up with fresh possibilities and innovative turns without irrevocably damaging the status quo is simply much easier. There will be times when Gosho is not inspired, and I think there are times when he feels tired of the series; his one-shot Tell Me a Lie, his breaks to work on MK, and his fantasizing in interviews about writing historical manga indicate to me a man who sometimes needs to get out of a Conan headspace. The problem, sadly, might be that Gosho doesn't actually remember how to do that. His recent MK work has essentially been DC MK-style, despite the narrative possibilities and structural freedom that MK's particular internal logic and characters provides him. He still writes it like a traditional three-part DC story. Gosho still gets inspired sometimes, but it seems to occur more in the realm of his cases. Then there is the second problem, the one that necessitates the status quo in the first place: DC's ridiculous popularity. The status quo is necessary to preserve its accessibility to the general audiences who watch it episodically and who go to the movies. You're probably right that there are ways to introduce major changes (like Ran discovering Conan's identity) that still retain the formula while injecting it with a fresh dose of possibilities offered by the altered character dynamics, but you might be assuming that Gosho has complete creative control over his work. DC has grown way beyond just Gosho. Story decisions that he makes have an impact on things beyond just his manga, and when you're in the middle of that web radical transformations can be difficult. This wasn't such a problem in the past because, again, like you said, Gosho was once capable of producing great storytelling even while preserving the status quo.

I say this because if he was really interested in the characterization half

I think he's still plenty interested in the characterization half, he just does less of it. Super unpopular opinion around these parts, but I think Bourbon is a great character with an interesting arc and the perfect foil to Akai. Vermouth's struggle to keep the only two people she cares about out of trouble has bene highlighted and foregrounded by virtue of Bourbon's arc. Akai's transition to Okiya doubled both as mystery and a redemption arc for the character, done counter-intuitively through his domestication (really I feel this character choice on Gosho's part--for a cool FBI agent--doesn't get enough appreciation). Gosho's problem is more that he's allowed his main characters to stagnate at the cost of shifting the spotlight to other, newer people. This is, again, in part a product of the series unhealthy length. Haibara had a fantastic arc of growing from a cold, cynical, suicidal paranoiac to someone who has discovered new meaning in life and gotten a second chance at a childhood she never had, but at this point her arc's basically over and there isn't much left to do with her outside of comedy. Conan had an arc of learning humility and crafting the close bonds Shinichi didn't have, but that could only last so long and has even been somewhat undermined by some events in the Bourbon and Rum arc. Gosho wrenched a lot of great drama and comedy out of Shinichi's predicament, but even that well, one of the things that most distinguished Conan from its mystery contemporaries, has begun to run dry. Perhaps this problem of stagnation can be resolved if we'd just do away with the status quo entirely, but that brings us back to the problem of its existence to sustain the DC industry. Sometimes Gosho finds new means through which to explore his long-existing characters (like Ran and Sera's conflict in the detective agency hostage case), but they no longer occur with the frequency they once did.

All that being said, as I've expressed in the past, I do believe the status quo is slowly raveling, but so slowly it's barely perceptible. But it's definitely there. And to address your main area of focus, Antiyonder, I think the folks over at the Red Thread page have put together a persuasive argument as to how we're building towards a climactic Ran suspicion arc. But like everything else, it's paced excruciatingly slowly, at this point somewhat ludicrously (Ran's growing suspicions have been hinted at for at least a decade now). We are working to a conclusion, even if we're moving so slowly it feels like we're running in place. And I know that's a scant comfort to many, and I wish things were different. But as I said, DC has become a victim of its own success. Considering its length, I appreciate that Gosho has managed to keep it a good series for as long as he has, even if it no longer scales the heights it once did. I only hope it concludes before it goes the way of Naruto or Bleach.
MeiTanteixX
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby MeiTanteixX » July 31st, 2017, 3:02 pm

Spoiler:
Kudo Shinchi wrote:Long post incoming...

Doing just mysteries, minus the serialized plot, I don't think most of those segments of the fanbase (more power to them) would really care.


This is correct. To say that most people who follow DC do so for the BO plot is to project the interests of the international (specifically the Western) fanbase onto the Japanese one. It's hard to appreciate for people who live outside of Japan, but DC really is a (pop) cultural institution there, the kind of staple of television that families can sit around and watch at random without necessarily being fluent with the broader storyline (akin to Doctor Who in Britain). The movie franchise officially achieved blockbuster status with The Darkest Nightmare, and between it, the anime, the manga, the merchandise, and cultural influence, DC is almost its own industry. Everyone knows DC, even if they don't watch it or follow it, just like everyone knows about the Simpsons (to borrow your example) even if they've never watched a single episode. I don't think it's far-fetched at all to suggest that most people who watch Japan in DC do so casually, just to enjoy a good mystery. The BO aspect is the least essential part of DC's domestic success, which not coincidentally is why Gosho can get away with doing BO cases so rarely. Whether or not the BO is important to DC's international success is a different discussion, but the point stands.

doesn't care to do his best unless he feels that ok isn't enough for sales.


I think you can argue that Gosho's writing has stagnated without presuming purely monetary motives.

Plus, The Simpsons, which started much sooner and more simplistic never even promised more than clever comedy and is still on the air.


I think this alludes to an interesting point, which is that many current fan's dissatisfaction with DC, including your's, Antiyonder, stems from the fact that it has demonstrated that it can and has been more than just an episodic mystery series with fun characters. For all that I just went on about how the BO plot isn't crucial to DC's appeal back at home, I do think that stuff like the BO plot line and various developmental arcs undergone by characters does elevate DC quality-wise and entertainment-wise above many other mystery shows, and among the Western fanbase it is definitely the reason that many fans are still on board. (And it's part of the reason you see so much interesting discussion and disagreement between DC fans in particular; aside from a consensus that everything up to the end of the Vermouth arc was basically perfect or at least very good, we can't seem to agree on what makes DC still worth following, whether it's the romance, the plot, the mysteries, the character dynamics, etc.). Just look at this forum: discussion of characters and of the BO plot far, far outstrips any sustained discussion of the cases, which are, whether we like it or not, the core of this mystery series and to what Gosho dedicates the majority of his brainpower.

The incongruence of (a subset of) the fandom's interests and Gosho's focus has created this curious phenomenon where fans determine the quality a mystery series on the basis of...well, everything besides its (case) mysteries. The majority of Gosho's work is essentially ignored in favor of what other people find compelling, which would not have happened if the series hadn't attracted people not necessarily super interested in the day-to-day cases in the first place (a testament to the initial quality of DC's myriad other elements). If the intellectual puzzles compelled not just because of their intrinsic design but of how they related to the characters and the overall plot, then it makes sense that a decrease in the quality of the latter two would leave people frustrated and uninterested in the former, no matter how technically well-written. Mind you, I'm very sympathetic to that perspective, and I myself, while still loving most of DC's cases just for their intellectual value, do find them enhanced when Gosho manages to ground them in thematic statements and character moments; it deepens the emotional resonance of what might otherwise be dry puzzlebox mechanics and as such allows the cases that fall short to shine regardless (personally, part of the reason I could never get into Kindaichi despite its sometimes brilliant mysteries was its utterly bland characters and lack of alternate sources of investment). But even with that said, I do find it genuinely odd how little attention is sometimes paid to the episodic cases themselves, which are probably the strongest thing in modern DC, though like everything else there has been a decline. To deny the detective aspects of of a detective series would be to deprive yourself of a pretty major source of the series' entertainment.

But I agree that Gosho once did a better job of juggling the multiple components of his series, and when they were all in sync he could produce magic like Desperate Revival (and really the entirety of the Vermouth arc). He still can; it just occurs much more rarely now. What we're seeing really is an inevitable result of overstretched length, of DC becoming a victim of its own success. DC today is not produced by the same mind of DR, of the 12 Million Hostages, of Black Impact, heck even of Clash of Red and Black. Gosho's been worn down by age and routine. He's no longer the magician who can tell emotionally rivetingly and narratively thrilling stories while still hiding that the status quo hasn't really been altered at all; his strings are more visible and his sleight-of-hands less graceful. But I don't believe, like some might, that Gosho has become a cynical money-grabber content to produce mediocrity as long as the bucks keep rolling in. He doesn't need the money, and being mangaka is brutal work. More importantly, he's still demonstrated a willingness to do new and fun things in his cases, even in recent years--like telling the cbar case from Kogoro's perspective-- and sometimes even subverting his own tropes (the alibi-locked-room that wasn't in the coffee aroma case, the outside culprit in the Red Woman case, the lack of a culprit in the Code of Love case, etc). Those cases see Gosho exploiting the audience's familiarity with his particular tropes to mislead and surprise them. Beyond that, Gosho still writes a healthy variety of case types and works to produce different scenarios to keep things interesting. And, sometimes, Gosho still manages to craft compelling character-based dramas within the framework of a traditional mystery, as in Sera's second case.

I think the problem, aside from Gosho understandably struggling to keep up the acrobatic act that he managed for the first 15 years or so, is two-fold: routine and popularity. Gosho has been doing this for so long that I think he sometimes slips into auto-pilot. There will be times, when you have been doing something for so long, that your mind simply dulls. For us, standing outside of brutal work schedules and not immersed in the same world for 22 years of our lives, coming up with fresh possibilities and innovative turns without irrevocably damaging the status quo is simply much easier. There will be times when Gosho is not inspired, and I think there are times when he feels tired of the series; his one-shot Tell Me a Lie, his breaks to work on MK, and his fantasizing in interviews about writing historical manga indicate to me a man who sometimes needs to get out of a Conan headspace. The problem, sadly, might be that Gosho doesn't actually remember how to do that. His recent MK work has essentially been DC MK-style, despite the narrative possibilities and structural freedom that MK's particular internal logic and characters provides him. He still writes it like a traditional three-part DC story. Gosho still gets inspired sometimes, but it seems to occur more in the realm of his cases. Then there is the second problem, the one that necessitates the status quo in the first place: DC's ridiculous popularity. The status quo is necessary to preserve its accessibility to the general audiences who watch it episodically and who go to the movies. You're probably right that there are ways to introduce major changes (like Ran discovering Conan's identity) that still retain the formula while injecting it with a fresh dose of possibilities offered by the altered character dynamics, but you might be assuming that Gosho has complete creative control over his work. DC has grown way beyond just Gosho. Story decisions that he makes have an impact on things beyond just his manga, and when you're in the middle of that web radical transformations can be difficult. This wasn't such a problem in the past because, again, like you said, Gosho was once capable of producing great storytelling even while preserving the status quo.

I say this because if he was really interested in the characterization half

I think he's still plenty interested in the characterization half, he just does less of it. Super unpopular opinion around these parts, but I think Bourbon is a great character with an interesting arc and the perfect foil to Akai. Vermouth's struggle to keep the only two people she cares about out of trouble has bene highlighted and foregrounded by virtue of Bourbon's arc. Akai's transition to Okiya doubled both as mystery and a redemption arc for the character, done counter-intuitively through his domestication (really I feel this character choice on Gosho's part--for a cool FBI agent--doesn't get enough appreciation). Gosho's problem is more that he's allowed his main characters to stagnate at the cost of shifting the spotlight to other, newer people. This is, again, in part a product of the series unhealthy length. Haibara had a fantastic arc of growing from a cold, cynical, suicidal paranoiac to someone who has discovered new meaning in life and gotten a second chance at a childhood she never had, but at this point her arc's basically over and there isn't much left to do with her outside of comedy. Conan had an arc of learning humility and crafting the close bonds Shinichi didn't have, but that could only last so long and has even been somewhat undermined by some events in the Bourbon and Rum arc. Gosho wrenched a lot of great drama and comedy out of Shinichi's predicament, but even that well, one of the things that most distinguished Conan from its mystery contemporaries, has begun to run dry. Perhaps this problem of stagnation can be resolved if we'd just do away with the status quo entirely, but that brings us back to the problem of its existence to sustain the DC industry. Sometimes Gosho finds new means through which to explore his long-existing characters (like Ran and Sera's conflict in the detective agency hostage case), but they no longer occur with the frequency they once did.

All that being said, as I've expressed in the past, I do believe the status quo is slowly raveling, but so slowly it's barely perceptible. But it's definitely there. And to address your main area of focus, Antiyonder, I think the folks over at the Red Thread page have put together a persuasive argument as to how we're building towards a climactic Ran suspicion arc. But like everything else, it's paced excruciatingly slowly, at this point somewhat ludicrously (Ran's growing suspicions have been hinted at for at least a decade now). We are working to a conclusion, even if we're moving so slowly it feels like we're running in place. And I know that's a scant comfort to many, and I wish things were different. But as I said, DC has become a victim of its own success. Considering its length, I appreciate that Gosho has managed to keep it a good series for as long as he has, even if it no longer scales the heights it once did. I only hope it concludes before it goes the way of Naruto or Bleach.
this deserves applauses. This kind of post just couldn't go without me showing you my appreciation for the time you spent on this. Well done, it was a perfect assessment.
Last edited by Spimer on July 31st, 2017, 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Enclosed a large quote box in a spoiler box for easier reading
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Spoiler:
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Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common''Image
Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman''
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Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...''
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Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself''
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Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''

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k11chi
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby k11chi » July 31st, 2017, 3:15 pm

Episodic series with an overarching goal always follow one rule - the author builds up for the climax. DC and Ace Attorney are perfect examples of this. If no one else is seeing all the build up Gosho is doing in this arc and continuing from Bourbon, then oh well, but this is definitely the biggest build-up the story has had yet.
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Wakarimashita
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby Wakarimashita » July 31st, 2017, 3:48 pm

If this forum had a like function, I would definitely have used it in this instance. Well, except for the part about Bourbon. :P
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If such an entity really existed, wouldn't all honest, hard-working people be happy?"

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Antiyonder
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby Antiyonder » July 31st, 2017, 5:26 pm

Kudo Shinchi wrote:Long post incoming...

Doing just mysteries, minus the serialized plot, I don't think most of those segments of the fanbase (more power to them) would really care.


This is correct. To say that most people who follow DC do so for the BO plot is to project the interests of the international (specifically the Western) fanbase onto the Japanese one. It's hard to appreciate for people who live outside of Japan, but DC really is a (pop) cultural institution there, the kind of staple of television that families can sit around and watch at random without necessarily being fluent with the broader storyline (akin to Doctor Who in Britain). The movie franchise officially achieved blockbuster status with The Darkest Nightmare, and between it, the anime, the manga, the merchandise, and cultural influence, DC is almost its own industry. Everyone knows DC, even if they don't watch it or follow it, just like everyone knows about the Simpsons (to borrow your example) even if they've never watched a single episode. I don't think it's far-fetched at all to suggest that most people who watch Japan in DC do so casually, just to enjoy a good mystery. The BO aspect is the least essential part of DC's domestic success, which not coincidentally is why Gosho can get away with doing BO cases so rarely. Whether or not the BO is important to DC's international success is a different discussion, but the point stands.


Seems right to me and while I stand by my decision to respect other fans for liking things as is, I'm still just puzzled. I understand the more casual fans who like it as is because the problems don't quite get a chance to sink in or are noticable.

Though for those following it more frequently and content, more power to them, but I never really understand why people actively dislike changes as a whole. I mean if you want safe and predictable, just pick and episode or film and watch it over and over again. You don't get more safe than that.

Also any of your quotes that I snip, I don't object to, just that I want to minimize the post as possible while touching on the points I feel I can give some weight.


Kudo Shinchi wrote:
doesn't care to do his best unless he feels that ok isn't enough for sales.


I think you can argue that Gosho's writing has stagnated without presuming purely monetary motives.


Which I've considered, but if not that or editorial mandates denying him leeway, I still feel he does it for the wrong reason (trying to keep the proverbial kids safe and in the comfort zone).


Kudo Shinchi wrote:
The incongruence of (a subset of) the fandom's interests and Gosho's focus has created this curious phenomenon where fans determine the quality a mystery series on the basis of...well, everything besides its (case) mysteries. The majority of Gosho's work is essentially ignored in favor of what other people find compelling, which would not have happened if the series hadn't attracted people not necessarily super interested in the day-to-day cases in the first place (a testament to the initial quality of DC's myriad other elements). If the intellectual puzzles compelled not just because of their intrinsic design but of how they related to the characters and the overall plot, then it makes sense that a decrease in the quality of the latter two would leave people frustrated and uninterested in the former, no matter how technically well-written. Mind you, I'm very sympathetic to that perspective, and I myself, while still loving most of DC's cases just for their intellectual value, do find them enhanced when Gosho manages to ground them in thematic statements and character moments; it deepens the emotional resonance of what might otherwise be dry puzzlebox mechanics and as such allows the cases that fall short to shine regardless (personally, part of the reason I could never get into Kindaichi despite its sometimes brilliant mysteries was its utterly bland characters and lack of alternate sources of investment). But even with that said, I do find it genuinely odd how little attention is sometimes paid to the episodic cases themselves, which are probably the strongest thing in modern DC, though like everything else there has been a decline. To deny the detective aspects of of a detective series would be to deprive yourself of a pretty major source of the series' entertainment.


Agreed. I just object to it being the only thing he chooses to put more effort into nowadays when again he might have been better off just making it pure episodic series with Conan being a child prodigy than high school teen who reverted to that age because of a big organization

Kudo Shinchi wrote:
You're probably right that there are ways to introduce major changes (like Ran discovering Conan's identity) that still retain the formula while injecting it with a fresh dose of possibilities offered by the altered character dynamics, but you might be assuming that Gosho has complete creative control over his work. DC has grown way beyond just Gosho. Story decisions that he makes have an impact on things beyond just his manga, and when you're in the middle of that web radical transformations can be difficult. This wasn't such a problem in the past because, again, like you said, Gosho was once capable of producing great storytelling even while preserving the status quo.


I suppose, though I have to wonder how he doesn't get creative control consider that DC has gone on say longer than Dragon Ball which had a lull in new canon content until the new films and Super. I'd think that would give him the clout to dictate where the story went. Heck, even back when DB in comparison was in it's infancy, Toriyama despite the higher ups frowning on aging Goku still got to do so in the first place.

Maybe Toriyama took some measures to insure that he got to call some shots or Gosho isn't passionate enough to fight his higher ups on the matter whether it's for money or liking the comfort zone.

Heck I'll even concede that while I believe my stance is valid, it's opinion based, but even with that in mind I guess I don't see it being good for the overall product to directly wait for the masses to grow tired before upping your game. Keep the magic while the iron's hot or otherwise you risk a product that when it's finally done will at best be good/ok, but not great or no longer great.

That said I question the idea that having Ran brought into the fold would be complicated. I mean for the movies for instance all it requires is the opening to mention than Ran use to be in the dark on the secret by found out. Not exactly something that requires a viewer to have PHD, especially in the age of internet where back story in available like that.

Kudo Shinchi wrote:
All that being said, as I've expressed in the past, I do believe the status quo is slowly raveling, but so slowly it's barely perceptible. But it's definitely there. And to address your main area of focus, Antiyonder, I think the folks over at the Red Thread page have put together a persuasive argument as to how we're building towards a climactic Ran suspicion arc. But like everything else, it's paced excruciatingly slowly, at this point somewhat ludicrously (Ran's growing suspicions have been hinted at for at least a decade now). We are working to a conclusion, even if we're moving so slowly it feels like we're running in place. And I know that's a scant comfort to many, and I wish things were different. But as I said, DC has become a victim of its own success. Considering its length, I appreciate that Gosho has managed to keep it a good series for as long as he has, even if it no longer scales the heights it once did. I only hope it concludes before it goes the way of Naruto or Bleach.


Truth be told I'm kind of a fan of the idea of the idea of Kogoro finding out or feeling that he should have probably a bit sooner. But I'll admit that I focus on Ran's status more as Kogoro still tends to serve as a murder puppet fairly often that telling him would change things even more, whereas Ran interfering with Conan's attempt to solve a mystery has reduced to a point where the basic formula wouldn't need to be forfeited if it had to be kept for more years.

I mean if a relatively harmless change is denied, then why should I expect an even bigger change to happen sooner.

But while the specifics are different I think Kogoro being allowed in is necessary in that like Ran it would help to make their growth and endgame development feel all the more organic. The redundancy itself is problematic enough, but when the status quo undermines the character's credibility, I think that's when a writer need to take the plunge and hopes it will work out.

Waiting until the way end for Ran to find out means likely having to gloss over the problematic vibe of Shinichi's dishonesty and makes it hard to see the get together as one that would do any better that Kogoro and Eri. You'd either have to ignore the wrongness of his actions or rush through Ran's forgiveness and recovering from the idea that the guy she's in love with thinks she's a liability that needs to be protected.

Heck, with getting into the argued sexist nature of Shinichi telling Eiskue off, there's still the fact that he's stood firm on keeping Ran in the dark, but outed himself to someone for such a weak reason. It kind of makes it hard to see the continued approach as anything other than lacking faith in her.

Overall, it just feels like the way her character is handled, we're suppose to view her as being just as important as the other story essential characters without the same effort to earn that status. Looking at some counterpoints of character who appeared frequently but less than Ran during the series as a whole:

1. Kogoro- Still functions enough as a murder solving puppet, plus the main reason Conan starting living at the Mouri residence was because his success is suppose to help result in a lead on the organization.

2. The Detective Boys- Granted it's moreso in the manga, but their appearances are arguably kept to a minimum much better than Ran while making more out of the times they do appear or just having more substance throughout (including Ai who even though her character decline can still carry her weight as a DB, even though like Ayumi she is a girl):

- Levity overall to offset some of the more dramatic or tense stories for the most part.
- Serves as camouflage for Conan's alias as a typical mystery solving boy (which I say ironically of course).
- Either frequently acting as a foil to Conan or directly helping him solve a case.
- Unlike Conan and Ran's dynamic which even during the best years don't feel like getting a notable change, I'd say to credit Gosho that the opposite holds true for him and the DBs. Early on it really feels like he sees them as a nuisance at worst, and camouflage at best, whereas overtime there's a growing vibe of a brotherly respect towards them and I have a had time believing that Conan wouldn't at this point try to keep them in his life in the end whether they find out the truth or not.
- Their presence as providing levity even will mask the story at points. While the Desperate Revival did start with Ran's suspicion showing again, the usage of the apotoxin cure happened as a result of a routine DB case, or heck James Black first full appearance occurred during a DB case.

3. That said, I will concede it's harder to decide where and when she could stand to have more limited appearances, but I feel that there are ways to make her appearances more notable or entertaining. For one outside of her relationship with Shinichi there's the occasional moments of trying to get her parents together, but for some more random ideas that leap out to me:

- File 147-149/Episode 75: Ran getting into a game she is normally disinterest in (mahjong). Nothing game changing or intense, but it gives the character a more carefree moment where she doesn't have to be the mature one in the family, and to comedic effect you have her making Kogoro looking like a newb in comparison to her playing skills.

- Files 398-400/Episode 329-330: Appearance refreshingly kept short and sweet, plus nice character moment where we see her wanting to be friends with Sonoko and not her money. Gvies Ran a bit of strength, and even briefly delves into a dynamic not usually prioritize.

See, if she can't be allow to impact the plot while needing to have panel/screen time, these are a good example of how to make them count beyond just trying to tell us that she's important.


That aside, I think Kogoro being brought into the fold will especially help his character just as much. I mean had the series been kept to a minimum, his development as is might not be problematic, but when he's only made a successful effort to solve cases in canon only 25 percent of the time in a series with hundreds of chapters and episodes, I don't see things working out for him in the end without some change.

Namely by becoming an ally he would be able to pick up some tricks from Conan/Shinichi that he's denied being render unconscious, even if he would hesitate to credit the brat for his improvement:-). Plus there's easily some nice buddy comedy dynamics you'd get like them bickering over certain details on a case, with Conan threatening "Do you want me to fire a dart towards you?", with Kogoro showing a brief nervous glance, then reluctantly, but grimly holding his peace while having some dialogue on his mind that can't be posted here for decency. After all, gore is good, cussing is wrong:-).

And like I said I feel such development would have been better during the point that it's argued where the series was starting to slip, if only because even making the leap in 2009 would still let Gosho still have it both ways. Series could still go on for 10/20 more years if need be, with more substantial padding as opposed to on the spot retcons (i.e. Akai suddenly having a sister that was never planned compared to say Haibara whose despite debuting in Chapter 176 was alluded to in silhouette in Chapter 16).

Heck, I think there could be some shock potential in Sonoko or the Detectice Boys finding out the secret, but at the same time it's a bittersweet thing as the way that the status quo compromises credibility, you just know that Conan, Ai and Agasa would accept such development, plus Kogoro and half the country learning the truth while still staying firm on the idea that "Ran must never find out".

k11chi wrote:Episodic series with an overarching goal always follow one rule - the author builds up for the climax. DC and Ace Attorney are perfect examples of this. If no one else is seeing all the build up Gosho is doing in this arc and continuing from Bourbon, then oh well, but this is definitely the biggest build-up the story has had yet.


And that's fine, but again effort should still be given even when it's hard to do so. Easy and right don't always go
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.
Kudo Shinchi
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Posts: 192

Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby Kudo Shinchi » August 4th, 2017, 8:09 pm

this deserves applauses. This kind of post just couldn't go without me showing you my appreciation for the time you spent on this. Well done, it was a perfect assessment.


If this forum had a like function, I would definitely have used it in this instance.


Thank you both!

Well, except for the part about Bourbon. :P


Like I said, unpopular opinion (around here :P)

Though for those following it more frequently and content, more power to them, but I never really understand why people actively dislike changes as a whole. I mean if you want safe and predictable, just pick and episode or film and watch it over and over again. You don't get more safe than that.


I'm not sure I follow you here. Why does watching DC purely as a mystery series, which is an integral of it in any case, necessarily mean disliking change? It might mean you don't feel a burning need for it, but that doesn't have to mean opposing switching things up.

I still feel he does it for the wrong reason (trying to keep the proverbial kids safe and in the comfort zone).

Why? I'm always wary of arguments about the quality of an author's work that presume the author's motive without concrete evidence either way, which is why I keep fixating on this. It's fine to speculate, but I guess I don't see much purpose in searching for uncharitable reasons an author might be producing flawed writing. I'm not trying to accuse you of doing this, and I could be misunderstanding you, but you tend to assume the worst about why Gosho makes the mistakes he does without explaining why you think so.

editorial mandates denying him leeway

I have to wonder how he doesn't get creative control consider that DC has gone on say longer than Dragon Ball which had a lull in new canon content until the new films and Super. I'd think that would give him the clout to dictate where the story went. Heck, even back when DB in comparison was in it's infancy, Toriyama despite the higher ups frowning on aging Goku still got to do so in the first place.


I think we have evidence that Gosho does indeed lack total creative control, with Sera being the most obvious example in new DC. The editors are the ones that told Gosho to put in a new teenage female detective after the success of Natsuki. Gosho clearly hadn't planned for Sera when mapping out the original trajectory of the Bourbon arc, and her inclusion caused some messiness in its back half.

That said I question the idea that having Ran brought into the fold would be complicated. I mean for the movies for instance all it requires is the opening to mention than Ran use to be in the dark on the secret by found out. Not exactly something that requires a viewer to have PHD, especially in the age of internet where back story in available like that.


You're right, explaining to movie-goers that Ran now knows Conan's identity would be easy. What would matter more though is the radical shift in character dynamics that Ran knowing Conan's identity would have (a shift that I agree opens numerous fascinating narrative possibilities, but which the movie's producers might be leery of having to deal with when creating their anime original stories).

Heck, with getting into the argued sexist nature of Shinichi telling Eiskue off, there's still the fact that he's stood firm on keeping Ran in the dark, but outed himself to someone for such a weak reason.


Yeah, this was a misstep. It's worth remembering though that this is the only time Shinichi has ever outed himself so easily to someone else without being backed into a corner first, and it hasn't really become a trend since then for Shinichi to go blabbering about his identity at the drop of the hat. Heck, Conan kept his identity secret from his extremely close ally Akai, who discovered Conan against his will, so I find it difficult to buy the argument that Shinichi lacks faith in Ran. By that logic he lacks faith in Akai too, when that is demonstrably not the case. Instead, a better reading (IMO) would be that the Eisuke mess was just an out-of-character moment for Shinichi and a lapse in Gosho's writing than any example of Shinichi's default approach to his secret identity.

Waiting until the way end for Ran to find out means likely having to gloss over the problematic vibe of Shinichi's dishonesty and makes it hard to see the get together as one that would do any better that Kogoro and Eri. You'd either have to ignore the wrongness of his actions or rush through Ran's forgiveness and recovering from the idea that the guy she's in love with thinks she's a liability that needs to be protected.


Certainly that's a possibility, but we don't know that Gosho plans to wait until the very end for Ran to find out. A lot of people didn't expect Shinichi to confess to Ran until the very end after he returned to normal, but lo and behold he did seven years ago and the story has gotten along just fine. We're now starting a case where most likely Ran will respond to his confession and maybe even go a step further. Gosho has shown a willingness to spread out seemingly endgame developments over long periods of time (for another example, see Sato and Takagi officially getting together hundreds of chapters ago after being teased for at least 400 chapters). My point is, we don't need to assume that Ran will find out at the very end. And the way Gosho has bene setting up evidence Ran can use to concretely verify Conan's identity, she might very well be the one to out him instead of him just telling her (that's usually how Gosho does reveals of major secret identities, btw, with a few exceptions: he prefers to have his characters act as detectives to expose other people instead of other people just straight up revealing who they are, as in the case of Jodie deducing both Araide's and Okiya's identities and Conan deducing Kir's and Amuro's [as a secret police]). Am I being too optimistic? Maybe, but I don't see why I should be too pessimistic either.

2. The Detective Boys- Granted it's moreso in the manga, but their appearances are arguably kept to a minimum much better than Ran while making more out of the times they do appear or just having more substance throughout (including Ai who even though her character decline can still carry her weight as a DB, even though like Ayumi she is a girl):

- Levity overall to offset some of the more dramatic or tense stories for the most part.
- Serves as camouflage for Conan's alias as a typical mystery solving boy (which I say ironically of course).
- Either frequently acting as a foil to Conan or directly helping him solve a case.
- Unlike Conan and Ran's dynamic which even during the best years don't feel like getting a notable change, I'd say to credit Gosho that the opposite holds true for him and the DBs. Early on it really feels like he sees them as a nuisance at worst, and camouflage at best, whereas overtime there's a growing vibe of a brotherly respect towards them and I have a had time believing that Conan wouldn't at this point try to keep them in his life in the end whether they find out the truth or not.
- Their presence as providing levity even will mask the story at points. While the Desperate Revival did start with Ran's suspicion showing again, the usage of the apotoxin cure happened as a result of a routine DB case, or heck James Black first full appearance occurred during a DB case.


Agree with all of this, and just wanted to say that I appreciate seeing someone recognize and praise the DB's essential narrative function and genuine merits as characters and a group. The entire conceit of Shinichi being a shrunken child wouldn't work any where near as well without them, even if I think Gosho has begun to run out of new things to do with the DB too.

3. That said, I will concede it's harder to decide where and when she could stand to have more limited appearances, but I feel that there are ways to make her appearances more notable or entertaining. For one outside of her relationship with Shinichi there's the occasional moments of trying to get her parents together, but for some more random ideas that leap out to me:

- File 147-149/Episode 75: Ran getting into a game she is normally disinterest in (mahjong). Nothing game changing or intense, but it gives the character a more carefree moment where she doesn't have to be the mature one in the family, and to comedic effect you have her making Kogoro looking like a newb in comparison to her playing skills.

- Files 398-400/Episode 329-330: Appearance refreshingly kept short and sweet, plus nice character moment where we see her wanting to be friends with Sonoko and not her money. Gvies Ran a bit of strength, and even briefly delves into a dynamic not usually prioritize.

See, if she can't be allow to impact the plot while needing to have panel/screen time, these are a good example of how to make them count beyond just trying to tell us that she's important.


All good points and examples, but I would argue you can find some equally good stuff in "modern DC" as well. Drawing on just the Bourbon and Rum arc:

1. Files 638-640 Episodes 510-511: Shinichi and Ran working together to rescue a kidnapped man, culminating in Ran ignoring Shinichi's demands for her to wait for backup because of her own consciousness and fundamental sense of justice and decency. Not only is Ran vindicated by the narrative for her decision, but we get a rare display of utter vulnerability on the part of Shinichi

2. File 771-774/Episodes 648-650: Ran and Sera conflict on how best to handle the hostage situation they find themselves in, with Ran actively foiling Sera's plan due to their divergent moral codes. Ran's idealism clashes with Sera's pragmatism, and the narrative (to the chagrin of many) came down on Ran's side. Notice that Ran here was acting on the same deep-seated compassion for all life, criminal or otherwise, that compelled her to save Vermouth's life back in New York.

3. File 834-840/Episodes 712-715: Ran and Kazuha play an integral in the case's resolution, capturing the culprit instead of standing on the sidelines (do wish this happened more often in Heiji cases)

4. File 876-878/Episodes 759-760: Has a nice moment where we see Ran fangirl over a romance/sci-fi novel which gives us insight both into her literary tastes and her essential attraction to romanticized stories (as in not just stories which have a romance, but which convey a vision of an idealized world). This reinforces more than it reveals that aspect of her character, which we can already observe from the way she tries to set up perfect dates for her mom and dad in the naive belief that they'll have an explosive magical moment that'll resolve all of their issues, or her hesitation in replying to Shinichi's confession due to her belief that might it disrupt the perfect dreamlike moment they shared by bringing her crashing back down to reality.

5. File 882-884/Episodes 772-773: Shinichi and Ran's dynamic in this case was great (Ran trying to impress Shinichi, which interestingly displays how little Ran tolerated Shinichi's various eccentricities and more obnoxious habits when she took his presence for granted).

6. File 921-924/Episodes 853-854: This case was a decent showcase of Ran and Shinichi's characters. It highlighted Ran's altruistic and surprisingly mature nature (willingly allowing the other children to go on the slide before herself), the same altruism that sometimes causes her older self emotional harm when it compels her to shoulder burdens so as not to hurt others (hence why she doesn't complain to Shinichi more often about how much his absence hurts her, always keeping up a cheerful, almost nonchalant face whenever trying to bring her parents together even though she deeply cares about their reunion, etc).

7. File 954-957/Episodes 866-867: Ran becomes involved in the plot, remembering at long last the dramatic events of the Vermouth arc climax, and even taking the initiative to confront Vermouth when she recalls that she refused to shoot her so long ago. It's an encouraging step in the direction of keeping Ran part of the overall plot which Gosho seemed to manage so effortlessly back in the Vermouth arc.

And aside from those moments, we have Ran's various suggested comments and gestures towards Conan that indicate a building suspicion, always in the background but consistently present across a broad swath of her appearances throughout both the Bourbon and Rum arc.

Could there be more done with the character? Sure, and I would like to see more, but considering how many characters Gosho is juggling at any one time and how many cases focus on casts that don't include Ran (Akai, Amuro, Sera, Shuichi, DB, Sato, Takagi, and Mary all hog up plenty of screentime, sometimes even at the cost of Conan himself not seeming to do much in some cases), it's not at all bad.

Namely by becoming an ally he would be able to pick up some tricks from Conan/Shinichi that he's denied being render unconscious, even if he would hesitate to credit the brat for his improvement:-). Plus there's easily some nice buddy comedy dynamics you'd get like them bickering over certain details on a case, with Conan threatening "Do you want me to fire a dart towards you?", with Kogoro showing a brief nervous glance, then reluctantly, but grimly holding his peace while having some dialogue on his mind that can't be posted here for decency. After all, gore is good, cussing is wrong:-).


Agreed. I think there are fascinating directions to take the story in if any of the regular everyday cast (Sonoko, Kogoro, DB, maybe even Takagi) discovered Shinichi's identity. But I don't think that's the only way to freshen up the narrative.

effort should still be given even when it's hard to do so. Easy and right don't always go.


But surely doing effective build-up takes effort, right? A huge portion of storytelling is just that. It's incredibly easy to fumble build-up (as I think Gosho kind of did with the recent case).
Antiyonder
Posts: 112

Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby Antiyonder » August 6th, 2017, 7:34 pm

Reversing a couple of responses to better explain myself.

"Why? I'm always wary of arguments about the quality of an author's work that presume the author's motive without concrete evidence either way, which is why I keep fixating on this. It's fine to speculate, but I guess I don't see much purpose in searching for uncharitable reasons an author might be producing flawed writing. I'm not trying to accuse you of doing this, and I could be misunderstanding you, but you tend to assume the worst about why Gosho makes the mistakes he does without explaining why you think so."

Because even if a writer is ambitious enough to shake things up on a more regular basis, it would arguably still be a bit of a challenge to do a higher portion of stories that aren't as formulaic. So for a writer who's majority of the series tends to follow a more simple pattern especially for hundreds of chapters/episodes, you have to figure breaking out of that routine would be a pretty big adjustment.

I mean the moment that Ran is brought into the fold that means having to say start with the adjustment of her new function in the story. For starters you have to be able to convey that she's merely acting ignorant of Conan's secret (even more so than Agasa and others since she is in close proximity to him more often) to prevent others from coming aboard while still demonstrating the she's a part of the secret keeping circle, wanting to still keep their friendship with him while at the same time feeling hurt because she feels her longtime friend didn't trust her enough to open up on his own accord (providing she discovers his secret on her own and confronts him), plus in response Conan is now actually questioning his approach for the first time given his friend's hurt feelings and considering that he can't always employ the same methods to get what he wants, while still trying his best to maintain the charade.

Heck, even if Gosho wanted to try such an approach after say Black Impact or at least before Clash of Red and Black, there would still no doubt be some difficulty in shaking the habits formed in a decade or longer.

"I'm not sure I follow you here. Why does watching DC purely as a mystery series, which is an integral of it in any case, necessarily mean disliking change? It might mean you don't feel a burning need for it, but that doesn't have to mean opposing switching things up."

I don't know either, but if it's not due to keeping routine, then it's often been said that writers tend to keep things the same as much as possible because they fear that ratings and profits will go down.

Heck going back to Dragonball which I'll bring up again after, why else would Toriyama's editors frown on the idea of letting Goku grow from child to adult hood if not for the feat that audiences would disapprove.

"I think we have evidence that Gosho does indeed lack total creative control, with Sera being the most obvious example in new DC. The editors are the ones that told Gosho to put in a new teenage female detective after the success of Natsuki. Gosho clearly hadn't planned for Sera when mapping out the original trajectory of the Bourbon arc, and her inclusion caused some messiness in its back half."

Sure, but I'm pretty sure Toriyama also had to deal with higher ups objecting to his ideas, and even caving while standing firm from time to time.

"You're right, explaining to movie-goers that Ran now knows Conan's identity would be easy. What would matter more though is the radical shift in character dynamics that Ran knowing Conan's identity would have (a shift that I agree opens numerous fascinating narrative possibilities, but which the movie's producers might be leery of having to deal with when creating their anime original stories)."

No more a radical shift than say Vegeta going from villain to reluctant ally to villain again for a brief while to hero.

"Yeah, this was a misstep. It's worth remembering though that this is the only time Shinichi has ever outed himself so easily to someone else without being backed into a corner first, and it hasn't really become a trend since then for Shinichi to go blabbering about his identity at the drop of the hat. Heck, Conan kept his identity secret from his extremely close ally Akai, who discovered Conan against his will, so I find it difficult to buy the argument that Shinichi lacks faith in Ran. By that logic he lacks faith in Akai too, when that is demonstrably not the case. Instead, a better reading (IMO) would be that the Eisuke mess was just an out-of-character moment for Shinichi and a lapse in Gosho's writing than any example of Shinichi's default approach to his secret identity."

True and I did since my previous post here tell DCUniverseAficionado in a PM that I'd be trying to tone my rants down, but to give the same explanation for my stances overall and why I feel a bit tense on the topic:

I guess it's just a lot of things that add up:
- Aforementioned status quo elements that are kept. Adding redundancy is bad enough, but there's the unpleasant implications and to a degree hurt the coherency of the characterization. It's easier to cut one slack if the problems are singular, but when they are problematic on numerous levels that should be an incentive to reexamine the approach of the writing.

- Doesn't help that being critical seems to be a crime. I apologize for going overboard and will work on toning down on the rants, but I don't think it's anymore productive for others to insist that having any critique compromises the fact that one is a fan.

- And I can easily get why people don't have an issue with the writing even now, though again I'd think the consequences it has on the characters (implications or progression) would prompt more critique than given.

Heck:
1. When it came to the Eisuke bit, as fellow poster sonoci (memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=5302) pointed out here: viewtopic.php?p=773281#p773281

Some fans apparently cheered for Shinichi telling him off.

2. As stated when praising Funvince's The Mystery of Conan Edogawa, part of the appeal is that Ran gives a fair degree of forgiveness while not glossing over the deception.

But the fan fics that doesn't have Ran getting upset? Just have her brushing the problem off as a minor annoyance and then doing lunch.

Disagreement on the quality of the story is perfectly fine. Wanting the lead to be flawed is good, but acting like the crap don't stink is a little unsettling.


And I find the Eisuke bit as a good example of why some better care should be taken on the writing. Having the lead character acting in a matter that was jerkish, but not necessarily intended as such, plus counteracting previous character traits.

A mistake can be easily overlooked when it makes a singular mess, but when it's problematic on two fronts, yeah this is the thing that can be avoided when favoring critical feedback.

"Certainly that's a possibility, but we don't know that Gosho plans to wait until the very end for Ran to find out. A lot of people didn't expect Shinichi to confess to Ran until the very end after he returned to normal, but lo and behold he did seven years ago and the story has gotten along just fine. We're now starting a case where most likely Ran will respond to his confession and maybe even go a step further. Gosho has shown a willingness to spread out seemingly endgame developments over long periods of time (for another example, see Sato and Takagi officially getting together hundreds of chapters ago after being teased for at least 400 chapters). My point is, we don't need to assume that Ran will find out at the very end. And the way Gosho has bene setting up evidence Ran can use to concretely verify Conan's identity, she might very well be the one to out him instead of him just telling her (that's usually how Gosho does reveals of major secret identities, btw, with a few exceptions: he prefers to have his characters act as detectives to expose other people instead of other people just straight up revealing who they are, as in the case of Jodie deducing both Araide's and Okiya's identities and Conan deducing Kir's and Amuro's [as a secret police]). Am I being too optimistic? Maybe, but I don't see why I should be too pessimistic either."

True on Takagi/Sato and a bright spot during the Bourbon arc, but then I feel that to a point that it was an easier change to make when said characters don't appear as frequently as ShinRan (who both were present since Chapter 1).

As for the confession, that certainly gives the London arc some high points over the Shiragami arc, though until Conan is permanently cured and the BO is dealt with I'm not sure what else can be done after Ran makes a final decision on the matter.

Heck regarding another argument I've heard as to why the status quo shouldn't be changed? Because it would remove too much tension since Ran would no longer wonder where Shinichi is (or not being able to do stories where he is temporarily cured, but reverting back to being Conan and ditching Ran in a heartbreaking moment). Not really. Lets say that after the reveal that after some time, Conan and Ran's friendship finally returns to a better place. Conan works harder to communicate and open up to Ran as best he can, with Ran being able to fully forgive him for keeping the truth from her, so things should be perfect, right?

Nope. I doubt that Ran's going to be eager to be physically intimate with a child, even with said kid being her teenage equal. See until things are properly wrapped up, the two will be stuck with the fact that there's no secrets or ill feelings between them, but they still can't fully act on their feelings because of a very uncontrollable outside factor. And I get that communication failure is a legit problem that occurs in real life and is popular in fiction, but why settle on that when a more compelling source of tension is basically gift wrapped and given for free?

That said, I don't know. It feels like the London confession was the result of recognizing that two of the main characters needed a shake up, but without really changing things in a heavier fashion.

"Agree with all of this, and just wanted to say that I appreciate seeing someone recognize and praise the DB's essential narrative function and genuine merits as characters and a group. The entire conceit of Shinichi being a shrunken child wouldn't work any where near as well without them, even if I think Gosho has begun to run out of new things to do with the DB too."

"All good points and examples, but I would argue you can find some equally good stuff in "modern DC" as well. Drawing on just the Bourbon and Rum arc:

1. Files 638-640 Episodes 510-511: Shinichi and Ran working together to rescue a kidnapped man, culminating in Ran ignoring Shinichi's demands for her to wait for backup because of her own consciousness and fundamental sense of justice and decency. Not only is Ran vindicated by the narrative for her decision, but we get a rare display of utter vulnerability on the part of Shinichi

2. File 771-774/Episodes 648-650: Ran and Sera conflict on how best to handle the hostage situation they find themselves in, with Ran actively foiling Sera's plan due to their divergent moral codes. Ran's idealism clashes with Sera's pragmatism, and the narrative (to the chagrin of many) came down on Ran's side. Notice that Ran here was acting on the same deep-seated compassion for all life, criminal or otherwise, that compelled her to save Vermouth's life back in New York.

3. File 834-840/Episodes 712-715: Ran and Kazuha play an integral in the case's resolution, capturing the culprit instead of standing on the sidelines (do wish this happened more often in Heiji cases)

4. File 876-878/Episodes 759-760: Has a nice moment where we see Ran fangirl over a romance/sci-fi novel which gives us insight both into her literary tastes and her essential attraction to romanticized stories (as in not just stories which have a romance, but which convey a vision of an idealized world). This reinforces more than it reveals that aspect of her character, which we can already observe from the way she tries to set up perfect dates for her mom and dad in the naive belief that they'll have an explosive magical moment that'll resolve all of their issues, or her hesitation in replying to Shinichi's confession due to her belief that might it disrupt the perfect dreamlike moment they shared by bringing her crashing back down to reality.

5. File 882-884/Episodes 772-773: Shinichi and Ran's dynamic in this case was great (Ran trying to impress Shinichi, which interestingly displays how little Ran tolerated Shinichi's various eccentricities and more obnoxious habits when she took his presence for granted).

6. File 921-924/Episodes 853-854: This case was a decent showcase of Ran and Shinichi's characters. It highlighted Ran's altruistic and surprisingly mature nature (willingly allowing the other children to go on the slide before herself), the same altruism that sometimes causes her older self emotional harm when it compels her to shoulder burdens so as not to hurt others (hence why she doesn't complain to Shinichi more often about how much his absence hurts her, always keeping up a cheerful, almost nonchalant face whenever trying to bring her parents together even though she deeply cares about their reunion, etc).

7. File 954-957/Episodes 866-867: Ran becomes involved in the plot, remembering at long last the dramatic events of the Vermouth arc climax, and even taking the initiative to confront Vermouth when she recalls that she refused to shoot her so long ago. It's an encouraging step in the direction of keeping Ran part of the overall plot which Gosho seemed to manage so effortlessly back in the Vermouth arc.

And aside from those moments, we have Ran's various suggested comments and gestures towards Conan that indicate a building suspicion, always in the background but consistently present across a broad swath of her appearances throughout both the Bourbon and Rum arc.

Could there be more done with the character? Sure, and I would like to see more, but considering how many characters Gosho is juggling at any one time and how many cases focus on casts that don't include Ran (Akai, Amuro, Sera, Shuichi, DB, Sato, Takagi, and Mary all hog up plenty of screentime, sometimes even at the cost of Conan himself not seeming to do much in some cases), it's not at all bad."


Well like Kogoro, sure maybe there isn't much from the DBs, but they still serve a regular consistent function. Plus like Akai and others you listed, they are allowed to be absent more often than Ran (who I can't stress enough is the second most appearing character besides Conan/Shinichi)

That plus again the fact that she hasn't served as a obstacle as often as the old days just gives the feel that she needs a new direction or better use.

"But surely doing effective build-up takes effort, right? A huge portion of storytelling is just that. It's incredibly easy to fumble build-up (as I think Gosho kind of did with the recent case)."

Fair enough.
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.
thriceplus
User avatar
Posts: 136

Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby thriceplus » November 14th, 2017, 8:53 pm

Ok, back after a 2 year break. Haven't read through all the replies yet (started reading page 4; have no idea what the heck people are talking about), but come on,
Spoiler:
after 1005, there's no doubt to me that we've been seeing glimpses of the endgame. ShinRan's finally a thing. Ran won. I didn't expect to see this until almost the last chapter honestly. The only thing left for ShinRan to advance is either Ran finding out Conan's real identity, which probably won't happen until the last 5-10 chapters since it completely destroys the status quo, or they "pull a Shaman King" (ie bang) which doesn't really fit the tone of the series.


I still think that after Rum's arc finishes (probably won't for another 2 years at least), we'll enter the final arc. Assuming no prolonged hiatus, I can see this series ending in the late 2020s. So yeah, not exactly soon, but also not like 2050
K.O.R.N
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby K.O.R.N » November 14th, 2017, 9:30 pm

I think DC will end after 10 years from now. 3 more years in Rum arc, and 7 years in Boss arc, that'd be good enough. Gosho said DC would come to an end eventually in an interview before, and he has plans after DC, so my guess is, he should end it not too late for him to work on other things. There are some signs that show that things are coming to an end. First off, the progress in Shinran relationship with the cheek kiss. Second, the turmoil after the Tengu rampage case - Shinichi is alive and that must've spread to BO. They're gonna find out ways to confirm this by sending people to Shinichi's house, or spying people around him to get more information. So basically the end game is quite evident now. Only thing I'm concerned is, we shouldn't see fillers like Chiba x Naeko and stuff like that anymore...
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Absenta
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby Absenta » November 26th, 2017, 6:10 pm

K.O.R.N wrote:I think DC will end after 10 years from now. 3 more years in Rum arc, and 7 years in Boss arc, that'd be good enough. Gosho said DC would come to an end eventually in an interview before, and he has plans after DC, so my guess is, he should end it not too late for him to work on other things. There are some signs that show that things are coming to an end. First off, the progress in Shinran relationship with the cheek kiss. Second, the turmoil after the Tengu rampage case - Shinichi is alive and that must've spread to BO. They're gonna find out ways to confirm this by sending people to Shinichi's house, or spying people around him to get more information. So basically the end game is quite evident now. Only thing I'm concerned is, we shouldn't see fillers like Chiba x Naeko and stuff like that anymore...



Wait...WHAT??? no way... I think we are close to know Rum´s identity. And I don´t think anokata´s arc is gonna be that long...C´mon, Gosho would need an APTX in order to finish the manga u.u
Uchiha Shadow
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby Uchiha Shadow » December 3rd, 2017, 9:37 am

Absenta wrote:Wait...WHAT??? no way... I think we are close to know Rum´s identity. And I don´t think anokata´s arc is gonna be that long...C´mon, Gosho would need an APTX in order to finish the manga u.u

I don't think we've gotten nearly enough cases with the big 3(Kuroda, Wakita and Rumi) for the big Rum case to happen yet, look at how much build-up there was for the Mystery Train and the Halloween Party. I think that even after Rum's identity is revealed, the arc will still go on for quite a decent amount of time and we might have another huge clash with the BO. And at the release pacing Gosho's been going at recently, at least 3 years are left for the Rum arc.
CrimsonGenius
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby CrimsonGenius » December 10th, 2017, 3:17 pm

Maybe

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Uchiha Shadow
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby Uchiha Shadow » December 10th, 2017, 4:55 pm

I'd say we have 300 chapters left easily. And I'm being optimistic.
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » December 10th, 2017, 5:56 pm

Uchiha Shadow wrote:I'd say we have 300 chapters left easily. And I'm being optimistic.


And that's based on the idea that the Bourbon arc is the new norm—instead of an anomaly—in terms of arc length and pacing, right?

And what's your more pessimistic estimate?
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Uchiha Shadow
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Re: Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

Postby Uchiha Shadow » December 11th, 2017, 3:20 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
Uchiha Shadow wrote:I'd say we have 300 chapters left easily. And I'm being optimistic.


And that's based on the idea that the Bourbon arc is the new norm—instead of an anomaly—in terms of arc length and pacing, right?

And what's your more pessimistic estimate?


Do you want my estimation after the recent reveal or before? Because BOY did it change everything.......

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