Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
alphajjc wrote:How do you guys feel about Gin talking about how Rum messed up the case 17 years ago. With someone like Rum being higher ranking than Gin don't you feel like he should be careful with words more when talking about him.
Vodka is his lackey and is loyal to him but i still feel it was kind of reckless for Gin to say that. Or maybe he simply doesn't fear anyone at all. I could be just overthinking, how do you guys feel?
As I mentioned in another topic, I don't think Rum was a second-in-command 17 years ago. He probably became one years later, therefore it could be that Gin doesn't have a respect to him as how people in the real life don't have a respect to the people that used to hold the same position as them, but got promoted. We don't really know if Rum has any connections to the APTX project. It could be that Rum runs the BO, but even they don't know its true purpose. Considering how much freedom Gin has, Rum could be promoted to the position of the second-in-command relatively recently (and Gin was a second candidate, but was rejected, and that's why he despises Rum so much). This would also explain why Wakita has such a bad view about Rum. Because a member who was not ready gor that yet got such a high position within the BO even though there were even better candidates for it.
Two more theories:
- Rum had to kill Amanda or someone else, but screwed up, and someone else had to finish the job.
- Wakita's words meant something completely different. He said that Rum is a weak horse, and he meant that even though Rum was portrayed as a second-in-command, and we might think they're a big cheese, in reality they're a minor player and play no role in the plot hence they're a weak link and we should not waste our energy on him.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
alphajjc wrote:How do you guys feel about Gin talking about how Rum messed up the case 17 years ago. With someone like Rum being higher ranking than Gin don't you feel like he should be careful with words more when talking about him.
Vodka is his lackey and is loyal to him but i still feel it was kind of reckless for Gin to say that. Or maybe he simply doesn't fear anyone at all. I could be just overthinking, how do you guys feel?
As I mentioned in another topic, I don't think Rum was a second-in-command 17 years ago. He probably became one years later, therefore it could be that Gin doesn't have a respect to him as how people in the real life don't have a respect to the people that used to hold the same position as them, but got promoted. We don't really know if Rum has any connections to the APTX project. It could be that Rum runs the BO, but even they don't know its true purpose. Considering how much freedom Gin has, Rum could be promoted to the position of the second-in-command relatively recently (and Gin was a second candidate, but was rejected, and that's why he despises Rum so much). This would also explain why Wakita has such a bad view about Rum. Because a member who was not ready gor that yet got such a high position within the BO even though there were even better candidates for it.
Two more theories:
- Rum had to kill Amanda or someone else, but screwed up, and someone else had to finish the job.
- Wakita's words meant something completely different. He said that Rum is a weak horse, and he meant that even though Rum was portrayed as a second-in-command, and we might think they're a big cheese, in reality they're a minor player and play no role in the plot hence they're a weak link and we should not waste our energy on him.
Counters coming, brace yourself.
1) When Gin was poisoning Shinichi he said that, "A brand new drug is devised which will leave no trace." Now Gin considers the current version of APTX as a new drug, that means Gin had no idea about the old version of APTX and didn't even know that this version was used on people. But Rum had access to it and used it on Haneda Kohji. See the difference in the hierarchy. Rum already 17 years back was a high-level BO person. Higher than the current status of Gin.
So Gin is only bitching around and Vodka is his earnest lackey that's all to it. Challenge Gin to say in front of Rum, he will pee his pants.
2) Both the jobs were done by Rum, the screw up meant the fragment of the dying message. BTW the message isn't Asaka-Rum, check Chekov's theories for further clarification.
3) Wakita said "Pirate's spirit is a weak Horse, yet you bet this much on him." That's a plot related comment, it was there for the horse race only. It can be interpreted as, Rum is the least suspicious Rum suspect, also. In that particular episode "The second in command of the boss was supposed to appear." hint was dropped too. Does that mean Wakita is Rum? Be reasonable, judge characters based on their actions and odd behavior(if it exists), only.
For me it's Gosho's way of hinting that Wakita would become a recurring character in Rum arc.
Subaru was seen drinking Bourbon, did that mean he was Bourbon??
alphajjc wrote:How do you guys feel about Gin talking about how Rum messed up the case 17 years ago. With someone like Rum being higher ranking than Gin don't you feel like he should be careful with words more when talking about him.
Vodka is his lackey and is loyal to him but i still feel it was kind of reckless for Gin to say that. Or maybe he simply doesn't fear anyone at all. I could be just overthinking, how do you guys feel?
As I mentioned in another topic, I don't think Rum was a second-in-command 17 years ago. He probably became one years later, therefore it could be that Gin doesn't have a respect to him as how people in the real life don't have a respect to the people that used to hold the same position as them, but got promoted. We don't really know if Rum has any connections to the APTX project. It could be that Rum runs the BO, but even they don't know its true purpose. Considering how much freedom Gin has, Rum could be promoted to the position of the second-in-command relatively recently (and Gin was a second candidate, but was rejected, and that's why he despises Rum so much). This would also explain why Wakita has such a bad view about Rum. Because a member who was not ready gor that yet got such a high position within the BO even though there were even better candidates for it.
Two more theories:
- Rum had to kill Amanda or someone else, but screwed up, and someone else had to finish the job.
- Wakita's words meant something completely different. He said that Rum is a weak horse, and he meant that even though Rum was portrayed as a second-in-command, and we might think they're a big cheese, in reality they're a minor player and play no role in the plot hence they're a weak link and we should not waste our energy on him.
Counters coming, brace yourself.
1) When Gin was poisoning Shinichi he said that, "A brand new drug is devised which will leave no trace." Now Gin considers the current version of APTX as a new drug, that means Gin had no idea about the old version of APTX and didn't even know that this version was used on people. But Rum had access to it and used it on Haneda Kohji. See the difference in the hierarchy. Rum already 17 years back was a high-level BO person. Higher than the current status of Gin.
So Gin is only bitching around and Vodka is his earnest lackey that's all to it. Challenge Gin to say in front of Rum, he will pee his pants.
2) Both the jobs were done by Rum, the screw up meant the fragment of the dying message. BTW the message isn't Asaka-Rum, check Chekov's theories for further clarification.
3) Wakita said "Pirate's spirit is a weak Horse, yet you bet this much on him." That's a plot related comment, which can be interpreted as, Rum is the least suspicious Rum suspect also. In that particular episode "The second in command of the boss was supposed to appear." Does that mean Wakita is Rum? Be reasonable, judge characters based on their actions and utterances, only.
Subaru was seen drinking Bourbon, did that mean he was Bourbon??
1. Maybe Rum didn't have access to it, and had to kill Amanda using the standard means, but he screwed the job, and another one finished it using the APTX on a single witness Rum didn't notice them being at the crime scene. We don't really know how many people was there, so there is a possibility that Rum was not alone there. The case happened 17 years ago, really long time ago. I wouldn't be surprised if back then Rum was just an apprentice, and was supervised by sime higher ranking BO member. I mean even though Kouji was APTX-ed, it doesn't mean that he was APTX-ed by Rum. Especially that it appears that Pisco knew more about the drug than a higher ranking Gin.
2. Yeah, I did read that theory, and it seems pretty promising. But there are two things I see not fitting well in it. First one is that it is too complicated and relies on too much elements. Say, shogi pieces are missing, and the dying message becomes forever unreadable. Not to mention that Kouji was a shogi player, so him having shogi pieces isn't something unusual. Therefore one needs a really good amount of good will to connect shogi pieces a shogi player could have with himself with a dying message.
Another one is that Chikara doesn't look like a ruthless murderer. He even suggested Shukichi taking a break, so he would cool down and gather his mind. He even patiently was waiting several hours for Shukichi to appear, and I don't recall him complaining about that. While he could be able to murder any other person without any hesitation, I hardly can believe he could be able ti kill his fellow shogi player. Even 17 years ago.
3. I'm not ssying Your interpretation is wrong but as Wakita said: "yet you bet this much on him." And this is what we indeed are doing now - we bet too much that Rum has any connection to the plot. But this whole Rum arc as well could be only a red herring or a smoke screen.
Last edited by Spimer on May 27th, 2017, 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Enclosed multiple quotes in spoiler box to make thread reading easier
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
alphajjc wrote:How do you guys feel about Gin talking about how Rum messed up the case 17 years
ago. With someone like Rum being higher ranking than Gin don't you feel like he should be careful with words more when talking about him.
Vodka is his lackey and is loyal to him but i still feel it was kind of reckless for Gin to say that. Or maybe he simply doesn't fear anyone at all. I could be just overthinking, how do you guys feel?
As I mentioned in another topic, I don't think Rum was a second-in-command 17 years ago. He probably became one years later, therefore it could be that Gin doesn't have a respect to him as how people in the real life don't have a respect to the people that used to hold the same position as them, but got promoted. We don't really know if Rum has any connections to the APTX project. It could be that Rum runs the BO, but even they don't know its true purpose. Considering how much freedom Gin has, Rum could be promoted to the position of the second-in-command relatively recently (and Gin was a second candidate, but was rejected, and that's why he despises Rum so much). This would also explain why Wakita has such a bad view about Rum. Because a member who was not ready gor that yet got such a high position within the BO even though there were even better candidates for it.
Two more theories:
- Rum had to kill Amanda or someone else, but screwed up, and someone else had to finish the job.
- Wakita's words meant something completely different. He said that Rum is a weak horse, and he meant that even though Rum was portrayed as a second-in-command, and we might think they're a big cheese, in reality they're a minor player and play no role in the plot hence they're a weak link and we should not waste our energy on him.
Counters coming, brace yourself.
1) When Gin was poisoning Shinichi he said that, "A brand new drug is devised which will leave no trace." Now Gin considers the current version of APTX as a new drug, that means Gin had no idea about the old version of APTX and didn't even know that this version was used on people. But Rum had access to it and used it on Haneda Kohji. See the difference in the hierarchy. Rum already 17 years back was a high-level BO person. Higher than the current status of Gin.
So Gin is only bitching around and Vodka is his earnest lackey that's all to it. Challenge Gin to say in front of Rum, he will pee his pants.
2) Both the jobs were done by Rum, the screw up meant the fragment of the dying message. BTW the message isn't Asaka-Rum, check Chekov's theories for further clarification.
3) Wakita said "Pirate's spirit is a weak Horse, yet you bet this much on him." That's a plot related comment, which can be interpreted as, Rum is the least suspicious Rum suspect also. In that particular episode "The second in command of the boss was supposed to appear." Does that mean Wakita is Rum? Be reasonable, judge characters based on their actions and utterances, only.
Subaru was seen drinking Bourbon, did that mean he was Bourbon??
1. Maybe Rum didn't have access to it, and had to kill Amanda using the standard means, but he screwed the job, and another one finished it using the APTX on a single witness Rum didn't notice them being at the crime scene. We don't really know how many people was there, so there is a possibility that Rum was not alone there. The case happened 17 years ago, really long time ago. I wouldn't be surprised if back then Rum was just an apprentice, and was supervised by sime higher ranking BO member. I mean even though Kouji was APTX-ed, it doesn't mean that he was APTX-ed by Rum. Especially that it appears that Pisco knew more about the drug than a higher ranking Gin.
2. Yeah, I did read that theory, and it seems pretty promising. But there are two things I see not fitting well in it. First one is that it is too complicated and relies on too much elements. Say, shogi pieces are missing, and the dying message becomes forever unreadable. Not to mention that Kouji was a shogi player, so him having shogi pieces isn't something unusual. Therefore one needs a really good amount of good will to connect shogi pieces a shogi player could have with himself with a dying message.
Another one is that Chikara doesn't look like a ruthless murderer. He even suggested Shukichi taking a break, so he would cool down and gather his mind. He even patiently was waiting several hours for Shukichi to appear, and I don't recall him complaining about that. While he could be able to murder any other person without any hesitation, I hardly can believe he could be able ti kill his fellow shogi player. Even 17 years ago.
3. I'm not ssying Your interpretation is wrong but as Wakita said: "yet you bet this much on him." And this is what we indeed are doing now - we bet too much that Rum has any connection to the plot. But this whole Rum arc as well could be only a red herring or a smoke screen.
1) Gin mentioned that "Haneda Kohji murder was a job which Rum screwed up 17 years ago." So Haneda Kohji was killed by Rum beyond doubt. So if he was APTX-ed, then Rum was behind it, not someone else.
2)Well, you picked on two parts which makes the theory more compelling. The bruise in Haneda's palm gets explained by this theory(for holding onto shogi pieces), which doesn't get explained by other theories.
The irregular bruises on the fingers gets explained by Check's methods.
The most compelling part of this theory is, it doesn't assume that Haneda knew Rum's codename, it doesn't assume Asaka was Rum, it doesn't assume that Haneda knew Rum's codename is enough to implicate him as the murderer. So all these low probability assumptions happening together makes a theory pretty brittle.
This theory of Chekov (and somewhat mine, well I brainstormed with him/her and can take the credit of at-least 25% of it.) is immune to that brittleness.
Chikara won't kill a fellow Shogi player because he seems honourable, is just a childish argument. It's same like saying as you have a kid character as your avatar, so you won't be a troll. Just pure childish logic, it gave me laughs.
I would urge you to read Sherlock Holmes or his quotes ,more so, here's some for you, http://sherlockholmesquotes.com/sherloc ... reasoning/
3) Kir mentions Rum is on the move, the incidents which constituted Rum's screw-up, are coming out, BO is sending people to investigate those stuff, Police chief is delving into the case which is supposed to be Rum's screw-up, an elementary school teacher whose name is very close to the dying message is trying to get Conan's attention, the said school teacher is getting triggered about Prosthetic eye(Rum's identification) yet you decide to put so much emphasis on that one quote of Wakita,(which is totally related to a real horse race happening in the plot, if I were you I would be more interested about Wakita as this particular quote implies that Wakita is implying that Kogoro has an uncanny feeling to sniff out unlikely winners and Wakita wants to accompany Kogoro to his next murder case. I would rather try to build up his character from this, not speculating about how he thinks a Horse is more likely not to win . It's same like saying Subaru drank Bourbon,Subaru= Bourbon confirmed.)
Last edited by Spimer on May 27th, 2017, 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Enclosed multiple quotes in spoiler box to make thread reading easier
I think You are taking this far too much personally and as an attack on Yourself. I suggest changing You Your point of view. I'm merely posting possible theories that as well are possible. After all we know nothing or almost nothing about what happened 17 years ago. How many people was there, who was the target, what exactly happened or if Kouji Haneda is his real name. I easily can imagine a situation in which Rum was tasked with protecting Amanda, but he screwed (as Gin says) and let Amanda die. Same probable as the one that Rum killed her.
In the Detective Conan we seen so many murderers, and really a lot of them had what we call a conscience. Why some BO agents couldn't have it? Heck, Vermouth has more of it that she would want to have. Rum despite being a murderer can also have some honour or codex, and if Chikara is Rum, he could be reluctant to kill a fellow player. If he now is not as ruthless like Gin, Korn or Chanti, I doubt he was 17 years ago. And thank You for Holmes' quotes, but I always liked Agatha Christie more, and while I did read several of her books, I didn't read even a single Holmes' book. I guess Shinichi would hate me...
A theory is a theory, and You can't exclude a possibility that this whole Rum thing is just a diversion on Gosho's part. After all what would it be worth if we would not hear about Rum at all? Plus, this board seen hundreds of theories on various things, there are hundreds of theories alone on who Rum really is. So don't tell me that I chose some random words from a random character and built a whole on them, because You are doing exactly the same thing as I am doing - You are speculating parts of the plot.
About my avatar, he is Kanata from an anime called "Ufo Baby". It is a family anime about a couple suddenly getting a baby to raise. Pretty touching anime if You ask me.
In other words, calm down and have a respect to (possibly older than You) fellow community members.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
Nemomon wrote:I think You are taking this far too much personally and as an attack on Yourself. I suggest changing You Your point of view. I'm merely posting possible theories that as well are possible. After all we know nothing or almost nothing about what happened 17 years ago. How many people was there, who was the target, what exactly happened or if Kouji Haneda is his real name. I easily can imagine a situation in which Rum was tasked with protecting Amanda, but he screwed (as Gin says) and let Amanda die. Same probable as the one that Rum killed her.
In the Detective Conan we seen so many murderers, and really a lot of them had what we call a conscience. Why some BO agents couldn't have it? Heck, Vermouth has more of it that she would want to have. Rum despite being a murderer can also have some honour or codex, and if Chikara is Rum, he could be reluctant to kill a fellow player. If he now is not as ruthless like Gin, Korn or Chanti, I doubt he was 17 years ago. And thank You for Holmes' quotes, but I always liked Agatha Christie more, and while I did read several of her books, I didn't read even a single Holmes' book. I guess Shinichi would hate me...
A theory is a theory, and You can't exclude a possibility that this whole Rum thing is just a diversion on Gosho's part. After all what would it be worth if we would not hear about Rum at all? Plus, this board seen hundreds of theories on various things, there are hundreds of theories alone on who Rum really is. So don't tell me that I chose some random words from a random character and built a whole on them, because You are doing exactly the same thing as I am doing - You are speculating parts of the plot.
About my avatar, he is Kanata from an anime called "Ufo Baby". It is a family anime about a couple suddenly getting a baby to raise. Pretty touching anime if You ask me.
In other words, calm down and have a respect to (possibly older than You) fellow community members.
You misunderstood me. I was giving an example, wasn't implying that you're a troll.
Your theories aren't based on facts, they're based on your opinions. So it's nothing more than a fan-fiction.
On the other hand my theories are based on established story-line, (Theory isn't speculation.) if we are calling it Chikara because we have a logical resolution of Kohji's dying message. Why don't you come up with a counter theory which explains every aspect of Kohji case, insted of just telling us about your opinions?
I can pretty much exclude that possibility(Rum being a smokescreen), just as I can exclude the possibility of Vermouth being Shinichi's surrogate mother, Amuro being Akai's hidden tsundere crush, Rumi being a shotacon fixated on Conan, Vodka being Gin's lover, Kuroda's being the father of Rumi who disinherited her for being a Shotacon, Professor Agasa being Rum's cousin. None of these are disprovable. \s
(BTW, would seriously urge you to read at least the Soul detective murder case, at the last panel Gin categorically says to Vodka that Rum screwed up Haneda Kohji murder case. Haneda Kohji's name comes on the APTX kill list which BO uses on their targets. These are evidence enough that Rum wasn't protecting Kohji and/or Amanda.)
You don't have to agree with me, you're free to form your opinion but you can't claim that you can't called out if your opinion isn't based on facts, speculate as you like, but you can't call it a theory if you don't have the data to back it up. Neither do I disrespect you nor I'm taking it on myself but if you're giving out possible theories you should back them up with data.
I can't check the manga right now, because I'm in work, and recently most of my messages on this board are written only when I'm there and not home. So I can only use my memory to backup my theories or speculations.
You say that Your theory is based on facts. But I must say that so far we don't have enough facts to draw any reliable solution that would be more than just some theories or speculations.
You say that since Kouji appears on the APTX list then it must mean that he was killed by Rum ehen he tried to kill Amanda. But based on what facts did You draw this theory? My alternative to it would be that back then Rum was an apprentice, this was his first murder ordered by the BO and was accompanied and supervised by a higher ranking BO member. His job was to kill Amanda, but he not only failed it (thought he killed Amanda, but in reality she survived), but also let a witness to see this whole murder attempt. The supervising agent finished the job (murdered Amanda) and used APTX on Kouji. That's why his name appeared on the list. Not because Rum killed him, but because another BO member killed him and added his name to the list.
You say that there are evidence that Rum did not try to protect her. What are they? We don't know who is Asaka, if Asaka was Rum, and why the BO after all that 17 years is still too sensitive to that word. We don't really know what Gin meant by "screwed up". It could mean a lot of things like that Rum failed to kill Amanda, that he let Kouji to see his murder attempt, that he let Kouji make a dying note, or that he let BO's great source of infornation being assassinated by someone, and therefore the BO lost their precious source of information. And I'm ignoring the fact that Amanda was a US citizen, so her having a relation to a Nipponjin other than Kouji is really strange. Her bodyguards should only be US people, because normally You do not hire foreigners as bodyguards. And she was friends with FBI and CIA, so it is only natural that she would hire someone close or related to them. Which can mean that either Rum was just an assassin sent to kill her, and was not with her at all (was waiting for a chance to strike), in reality Rum is also a US citizen, or came to Amanda with Kouji. Or the BO knew that someone might want to take her life, and suggested Amanda hiring Rum to protect her (what he failed to do).
Until we know for sure what really happened back then, all of the theories are just nothing more but speculations. Myself I wouldn't call them fanfics, but if You really want to call them that, then You are free to do do.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
B) If Asaka was Rum, why Rum didn't kill Amanda earlier? Why did he let Amanda to live that long?
C) Where is the proof that there was another agent besides Rum in that Mission? Else Gin would have told Vodka, about the fiasco as the headache of other agent too.
D) Why Rum is the second in command after such a horrible screw-up?
E) How Haneda did know about Rum's codename?
F) Why there were bruises in unexpected areas in Haneda's palm and fingers?
G) Where is the proof that Asaka is not a Japanese American?
H) Where is the proof that Rum is a US citizen?
I) Why Amanda's room is so clean yet Haneda's is so messy? You said Rum failed the assassination attempt then Amanda's room would have been messier.
J) If Rum let Kohji go, then why Kohji was busy writing a dying message but not calling for help?
K) If the supervising agent killed Kojhi then why Kohji's dying message doesn't include the supervisor's name?
You seem to out of touch with the Manga,read them thoroughly only then start posting stuff. If you don't care about the plotline your theories are nothing but a bunch of Fanfics.
I don't have the time to answer all these questions. Instead, I will ask You just one - what is Your proof thay Rum killed Amanda? Proof, and not some speculations, wishes or theories. Concrete proof.
My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, too
When I grow older you will see me rescue you
I’ll teach you this old song so you can sing along
When I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.
As for proof there's evidence in it, Kohji was undoubtedly killed by Rum, (Gin's comment and APTX list).
In Kohji's room we find broken crockery with fingerprints of Amanda, then Amanda is found dead in her room. With no possible external wounds.
Kohji was a shogi champion and Amanda had close ties with CIA and FBI to counter organizations of the BO. Both Amanda and Kohji was killed in their rooms. Rum killed Kohji, a job which he screwed up according to Gin.
So dying without any cause of death, *She was APTXed, Rum was there who Aptxed Kohji. Rum had the authorization to use APTX, Conclusion Rum killed Amanda.
I don't feel like repeating myself, You don't feel like checking up the manga, so let's just end this here, it won't go anywhere as we differ on the very definition of facts and process of drawing inferences, but still I'll urge you to follow the manga and then post stuff.
Zerozaki4869 wrote:As for proof there's evidence in it, Kohji was undoubtedly killed by Rum, (Gin's comment and APTX list).
Gin's comment only reveals that Rum was involved back then and the APTX list entry only proves that Kouji was killed with APTX or its predecessor. What if there were more BO operatives involved back then and Rum was merely the one in charge? That doesn't mean he killed Kouji himself.
Zerozaki4869 wrote:As for proof there's evidence in it, Kohji was undoubtedly killed by Rum, (Gin's comment and APTX list).
Gin's comment only reveals that Rum was involved back then and the APTX list entry only proves that Kouji was killed with APTX or its predecessor. What if there were more BO operatives involved back then and Rum was merely the one in charge? That doesn't mean he killed Kouji himself.
What else do you want a confession letter from Rum?? I can also say Vermouth is Yasaku Kudo's ex-lover and Shinichi's surrogate mom, prove me wrong./s
If there were other BO operatives then Gin wouldn't have said that it's Rum's headache. If Rum didn't kill Kohji then the dying message can't be directed to him, so Rum had nothing to fear.
But Gin's comments are that Rum has a headache, which implies that Rum's involvement was to that extent which can cause a headache. B.O. considers the dying message as headache, (During the Asaca song investigation, their main concern was the usage of C instead of a K, Asaca as a whole word was unimportant.) which is Rum's headache to be precise. This is proof enough to conclude that Rum killed Kohji.
That doesn't counter my point, that Rum could've just been the head of the operation and thus bear the entire responsibility for it and didn't necessarily have to have been doing the killing himself, at all.
Serinox wrote:That doesn't counter my point, that Rum could've just been the head of the operation and thus bear the entire responsibility for it and didn't necessarily have to have been doing the killing himself, at all.
It totally counters your point. Let's evaluate the stuff once again.
Kohji was APTXed and it's a job which Rum screwed up, these two are two basic facts.
Gin mentions that the recent Hotta Gaito case where Hotta was speculating that he had known some stuff about Kohji case is only Rum's headache because Rum screwed up Haneda Kohji's murder.
If Rum is not directly involved in killing Kohji then the dying message left by Kohji couldn't have implicated Rum, it would implicate Kohji's killer. But BO seems to be very tensed about the message,(Bourbon and Vermouth were investigating why Asaca is used with a C), BO member(Gin) thinks that it was Rum's screw-up not the other operative's who was doing the job.
Also Bo entertains the fact that it's possible for Kohji to leave a dying message as he knew his killer, why BO is entertaining such a possibility in the first place? Why the lack of cleaning up would implicate Rum but not that operative? Even if Police gets close to that operative BO could just force him/her to commit suicide, why BO's second in command who was not even named in the dying message would have to worry about something which doesn't concern him?
The old APTX version was used with confidentiality(even Gin didn't know it's existence), then why a low ranking BO agent(Someone working under Rum) would be given the authority to use it ?
So it's pretty much evident Rum himself was involved and BO entertains the possibility that Haneda knew Rum by his real/social name. That's why Rum is on the move when exposes about Kohji case coming one after the other.
Guess what I also think that Wakita is Amuro's boxing coach who taught him how to fry Tonkatsu, but I'm not going to argue that "Just this proposition isn't stated as wrong in thought/speak bubbles in the manga so, I'll debate with everyone who thinks Wakita didn't teach Amuro about frying Tonkatsu's."