What's the identity of Rum?

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 153

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 29th, 2017, 11:18 am

Spoiler:
NinaSakura wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
NinaSakura wrote:
dccd wrote:Cool that you noticed it too :-).
I still think he won´t be Rum due to being a member of the "Conan-Team" and a good character at all.
But nethertheless it´s still possible.


Yeah...I figured as much too ;D Agasa being Rum would take a lot of explaining to do and might leave a lot of questions... ;D I was just excited that the description seemed to fit Agasa as if it was tailored for him ;D

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
NinaSakura wrote:Mmm...Pardon me if this sounds utterly crazy...
But I think Rum might be Professor Agasa... :-\ :-\

"ASACA" seems strangely similar to "AGASA"
His hair is long which might suggest feminine physique
He is an old man
And he's huge which might be interpreted as being strong


It's a very low probability assumption but you still will get marks for pointing out Agasa's similarity with Rum.
But here the issue is that Kohji had to know that Agasa was Rum, for that Kohji had to be related with BO.
Also Haibara would have felt pressure from Agasa.



I thought those through too and I was kinda depending on exceptions to cover for me there... ;D
Amanda might have somehow known some sorta info on Rum and told Kohji which was maybe why they were killed in the first place
And about Haibara not sensing vibes from the Professor...There is a possibility Rum remained low key within the BO and rarely made contact with the others and so he didn't give off that kinda dark aura... :-\
But I'd still rather stick on with the concept of Agasa being a good guy....like I said....a lot of things would become difficult to explain if it were not so....


Still, how would Kohji know that the person who is attacking him has code-name Rum? Here Kohji needs to have two pieces of information,
a) Agasa is Rum.
b) Rum is the one attacking him.
Is there any reason to believe that Amanda knew about Agasa's secret identity?
The question further arises, why Amanda would divulge this much information to Kohji?
There is another question that you need to answer why Kohji would think that the Rum part of the message would help Police get close on Agasa? Agasa is enough to implicate him(Agasa).
Haibara mentioned to Conan that Run knew her and if Rum saw her, she would have been killed. Why Agasa is keeping her alive?

Don't rely on exceptions to cover for your theory, then it's nothing more than a fan-fiction.



Wow..u really need to cool off.... none of us here have enough proof for anything at this stage of the arc and that's exactly why ppl are discussing all sorts of possibilities here... it's not a deduction show ya know...
I was just a bit excited and found it strange how Agasa could fit in...I was not even making a serious speculation...just exploring a possibility...
Moreover if u want me to give u a really serious one then how about this which cud answer some of ur questions there...
What if I told u there's a chance " U MASCARA" never pointed towards Rum or Asaca to begin with...??
The letters can be nearly perfectly put together to give "CARASUMA" or rather "KARASUMA"...
He was a minor character in the series...u can go look him up...it may have been Karasuma himself or his descendants...
Now to leave his dying message it wud have sufficed for Kohji to have just known his name and nothing about the existence of Rum...
See...? There's a lot of possibilities and it wudnt hurt to think up and exhaust each path...
I apologise in advance if this post was in any way offensive to you...
I just wanted to show u...my hypothesis may have been wrong....but my approach is not...


I already have co-authored a theory with the legendary Chekov, go on to chek's theory thread, we already have covered the stuff which you're pointing out.(BTW we debunked Carasuma theory too.)

BTW I don't find your comment offensive, to be precise I would really like to have a nice long discourse with you on the said points, not on Agasa being Rum and forgive me for too much of a demanding person but I don't like fragile theories.
Last edited by Spimer on May 29th, 2017, 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Enclosed multiple quotes in spoiler box to make thread reading easier
dccd
User avatar
Posts: 98

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby dccd » May 29th, 2017, 11:32 am

"Now Rum is just a code-name, it means virtually nothing, so the dying message is something more direct(Rum's social name).
So it's confirmed, Haneda knew Rum's social/real name, that's what is the dying message."

You just cant make ur deductions and say "So its confirmed".
Being the most probable outcome doesnt mean = confirmed.

It is not confirmed that Rum killed Kohji.
It is not confirmed that Kohjis message points towards Rum.
It is not confirmed that Kohjis message points towards his or Amandas killer.
It is not confirmed that they both got killed by the same person.

Get over it.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey
[ ] Iori = just a butler
NinaSakura
Posts: 5

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby NinaSakura » May 29th, 2017, 11:53 am

Spoiler:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
NinaSakura wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
NinaSakura wrote:
dccd wrote:Cool that you noticed it too :-).
I still think he won´t be Rum due to being a member of the "Conan-Team" and a good character at all.
But nethertheless it´s still possible.


Yeah...I figured as much too ;D Agasa being Rum would take a lot of explaining to do and might leave a lot of questions... ;D I was just excited that the description seemed to fit Agasa as if it was tailored for him ;D

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
NinaSakura wrote:Mmm...Pardon me if this sounds utterly crazy...
But I think Rum might be Professor Agasa... :-\ :-\

"ASACA" seems strangely similar to "AGASA"
His hair is long which might suggest feminine physique
He is an old man
And he's huge which might be interpreted as being strong


It's a very low probability assumption but you still will get marks for pointing out Agasa's similarity with Rum.
But here the issue is that Kohji had to know that Agasa was Rum, for that Kohji had to be related with BO.
Also Haibara would have felt pressure from Agasa.


I thought those through too and I was kinda depending on exceptions to cover for me there... ;D
Amanda might have somehow known some sorta info on Rum and told Kohji which was maybe why they were killed in the first place
And about Haibara not sensing vibes from the Professor...There is a possibility Rum remained low key within the BO and rarely made contact with the others and so he didn't give off that kinda dark aura... :-\
But I'd still rather stick on with the concept of Agasa being a good guy....like I said....a lot of things would become difficult to explain if it were not so....


Still, how would Kohji know that the person who is attacking him has code-name Rum? Here Kohji needs to have two pieces of information,
a) Agasa is Rum.
b) Rum is the one attacking him.
Is there any reason to believe that Amanda knew about Agasa's secret identity?
The question further arises, why Amanda would divulge this much information to Kohji?
There is another question that you need to answer why Kohji would think that the Rum part of the message would help Police get close on Agasa? Agasa is enough to implicate him(Agasa).
Haibara mentioned to Conan that Run knew her and if Rum saw her, she would have been killed. Why Agasa is keeping her alive?

Don't rely on exceptions to cover for your theory, then it's nothing more than a fan-fiction.



Wow..u really need to cool off.... none of us here have enough proof for anything at this stage of the arc and that's exactly why ppl are discussing all sorts of possibilities here... it's not a deduction show ya know...
I was just a bit excited and found it strange how Agasa could fit in...I was not even making a serious speculation...just exploring a possibility...
Moreover if u want me to give u a really serious one then how about this which cud answer some of ur questions there...
What if I told u there's a chance " U MASCARA" never pointed towards Rum or Asaca to begin with...??
The letters can be nearly perfectly put together to give "CARASUMA" or rather "KARASUMA"...
He was a minor character in the series...u can go look him up...it may have been Karasuma himself or his descendants...
Now to leave his dying message it wud have sufficed for Kohji to have just known his name and nothing about the existence of Rum...
See...? There's a lot of possibilities and it wudnt hurt to think up and exhaust each path...
I apologise in advance if this post was in any way offensive to you...
I just wanted to show u...my hypothesis may have been wrong....but my approach is not...


I already have co-authored a theory with the legendary Chekov, go on to chek's theory thread, we already have covered the stuff which you're pointing out.(BTW we debunked Carasuma theory too.)

BTW I don't find your comment offensive, to be precise I would really like to have a nice long discourse with you on the said points, not on Agasa being Rum and forgive me for too much of a demanding person but I don't like fragile theories.


Well good for u to have considered the Karasuma theory...

And if u don't like fragile theories, man this place must be a torture for u since every single word written here has not been backed up by sufficient facts...even ur own theories...

And it's not anyone's fault...that's all the information we have at our disposal at the moment... and neither is this a "grand deduction showdown"...

Earth to Zerozaki4869: "this IS a DISCUSSION THREAD"
Last edited by Spimer on May 29th, 2017, 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Enclosed multiple quotes in spoiler box to make thread reading easier
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 153

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 29th, 2017, 12:07 pm

We live two different worlds, so I don't bother about the shout-out from your world.

My theories are backed by sufficient facts which can be logically deduced from the Manga storyline.

Well there is a more compelling "Chikara Katsumata Theory" which we co-authored recently as a joint venture, or the less compelling Wakasa Rumi theory.

I know this is a discussion thread/not a a theory thread but still blatant disregard for logical discourse is quite the torture, like if I told you that there is an invisible BO agent hiding under your bed, whose presence can't affect Three-dimensional world, would you be able to prove me wrong?

If you want a discussion based on logical reasoning then say so in your post. BTW I do have a tendency to disregard shots from illogical places.
Kor
Moderator
Posts: 2870

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby Kor » May 29th, 2017, 12:37 pm

Okay guys, I know this may sound like one heck of a controversial notion, but Detective Conan theories are not what should fall under the category of "serious business", so let's all please stop acting like it is. There's no need for that kind of stuff to turn into a toxic discussion. At the end of the day it's just some theories about some events in a Japanese comic book.

@zerozaki: do you mind getting off the high horse? You are not an authority on what falls under logic and what doesn't, and this behavior can get kind of obnoxious. You believe your theory is backed up by facts and stuff? Great, but that doesn't mean others can't have their own say.
If you do truly find it torturous to read somewhat more far fetched theories, then... I don't know what to tell you. Everyone can post their own theories on this and that subject and you're free to disagree with said theories, but no puppy dies whenever someone posts some more far fetched theories. In fact, absolutely nothing bad happens if someone posts a theory that may not line with the "facts" in the series 100% straight.
Image
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 153

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby Zerozaki4869 » May 29th, 2017, 12:47 pm

If I'm being thrown Russel's teapot(It's not typed in Manga so despite it's a logical decision it's not a fact so your theory is not correct) every time when I try to bring up deductions based on the Manga storyline, what should I do?

Someone without checking out the latest theory about Haneda case comes at my face and says Rum didn't kill Haneda, Haneda left a departing message?

What I'm supposed to do?

Fine I won't feed them, problem solved.
blackmoon
User avatar
Posts: 23

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby blackmoon » July 18th, 2017, 4:08 am

Spoiler:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
k11chi wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:Ok. So the list before Sherry altered it had Shinichi's status as Unconfirmed, later Sherry changed it. But does it mean based on this one can imply that Kohji wasn't killed by APTX as the list can be altered?
BTW is the Japanese raw with Eng text below is already out?

No, but it opens certains possibilities regarding people, even 3rd parties manipulating the list to save someone like Kuroda, Mary or Papa Akai. It's hard to save Kohji anymore unless the dead body that the public found was not Kohji...


That's my point dude, too many of the people around here tend to discard something as basic as this to make their speculation sound more possible.

dccd wrote:

We have enough proof to determine, that Kohji left a dying message. The cut out "U" shape confirms this. That type of glass shard can't be generated by falling and breaking.
If Haneda was able to write a dying message it means he wanted to convey something which he didn't want the killer to witness.(Else a writing by his blood would have been enough.)
So this proves he was going to leave the name of the killer; BO is pretty much observant about anything which resembles the dying message or is somehow related to Kohji case. This means BO thinks that the dying message has some merit to trace out Haneda's killer.
Haneda Kohji case is Rum's headache and Rum screwed it up, so the issue points directly to Rum.
So it's a logical decution that Rum is the target of the dying message.
Now Rum is just a code-name, it means virtually nothing, so the dying message is something more direct(Rum's social name).
So it's confirmed, Haneda knew Rum's social/real name, that's what is the dying message. Now the debate can be what is Rum's real name? What is the true meaning of the dying message? Is there something more to it? We're not in 2015-16 anymore, the plot is clearing up with every passing case, if this debate was happening back in 2016 I would have understood, but it makes no sense now.


I have a completely different theory on the case from 17 years ago involving Kohji Haneda and Amanda Hughes deaths:

1) Amanda Hughes handed something to Kohji that was important to the BO (Black Organization), it could be the proto-type drug of APTX 4869.

2) Rum was supposed to retrieve that thing from Amanda (not sure how Amanda died, most likely poisoned by Rum) but after knowing the thing was not with Amanda, he\she had to fight and even kill Kohji to retrieve the thing. (It would explain why Kohji's room was all messed up; the chaos left-over from the search. It would also explain the bruises on Kohji's body and why there were no apparant bruises on Amanda's body.)

3) Kohji was holding something in his hand tightly (to protect and prevent it from being taken) before he died, which I believe is the thing that Rum took away from him after killing him, and it was the thing that Amanda handed to Kohji.

4) Some people suggested that what Kohji held in his hand prior to his death was a Shogi piece (as an important additional clue to his dying message), but apparantly there were no Shogi set in his room, so where did the Shogi piece came from? And some people suggested that what he held in hand was the scissor used to 'cut' out the dying message from words on a hand mirror. Yet, the dying message could be a set up arranged by the culprit (Rum) to 'frame' Asaka the body guard, which fled and escaped from the scene (whom Rum failed to kill; hence his\her screw up in this case).

In summary, I don't believe the dying message was left by Kohji but rather set up by culprit (Rum) to frame and lure out the escaped body guard (Asaka), which was considered as a screw up for him\her because he\she let that witness escaped. What was held in Kohji's hand was not a Shogi piece but something the BO was after and took away after killing him.

Spoiler:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
sadsun15 wrote:Anyways, just wanted to ask, what do you think of Wakasa so far? In terms of personality I mean. She kinda got me hooked after knocking out those robbers. And from what I've read from your posts (correct me if I'm wrong or misread), we can assume that Wakasa is a good person? Cause I would like to think so...she's so bad-ass and all.. o/////o
Wakasa is the type of person who is willing to let a murder case go forward in order to get close to Conan instead of intervening or calling the police. At the same time she is a kind assistant in the classroom who is willing to jump into a dangerous situation to rescue Ayumi. Basically the exact same Ayumi-saved-from-hostage-taker-by-provoking-him-with-words scenario happened a long time ago with Okiya (ikkaku rock) before we knew his true identity. Ai was still not willing to trust him and told Conan to throw him out of Shinichi's house afterwards. That tells me Wakasa didn't frighten Ai as much as Okiya did back then (so maybe Rumi is not emitting a BO Aura?), and Haibara's word to Conan that she is a good person is gold in my book.
I see Wakasa's personality as conflicted. She is driven by a "dark" motive that sometimes, like in the camping case, completely consumes her thoughts until she no longer pays attention to what is going on around her. On the other hand, I don't think she is an especially good actor -- because we see these flashes of her dark-side come through in front of other people -- so that leaves me to believe her warm classroom behavior is also genuine. The way I have reconciled this behavior in my theories is by assuming she is basically a good person, but she has an aggressive "badass" side from being a former bodyguard for a high level person and she has been hunting for the answer to a 17 years old case she is the primary suspect of.
This isn't a very good analogy, but I think Wakasa's personality is the type which be born if you took the kind and tough Ran, killed Shinichi in a mysterious case, and forced Ran to be on the run as a primary suspect. She'd still be a kind person, but she'd never stop searching, and she might be willing to do some nasty things to find clues and get vengeance.


Well, I have a completely new perspective. What if Rumi isn't Rum but rather that female bodyguard of Amanda called Asaka that some how escaped from being killed by Rum and went into hiding until begging the case from 17 years ago to be solved by someone by posting photos of the scene through the internet which Conan spotted. That would explain her 'dark' flash backs, which you mentioned during camping case, similar to what Bourbon\Amuro had when he was recalling painful memories of Scotch. Maybe Rumi was related to the 17 years old case.

There are two images from the Conan movie 20, The Darkest Nightmare about Rum that is interesting.

The first one appeared when Conan first picked up the five colored cards dropped by Curaçao (キュラソー Kyurasō), a Black Organization
member who appears as the main antagonist in movie. The strange symbol appeared after all five colors are combined and it looks like a shape of a mouse or beaver. Could it be a hint about Rum (Curaçao was saved by Rum and is his\her agent)?

[img]https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO1ZfRb2RcdZJr8goN9D7WZE4ixCxNTlf02dShHbxA7Xq9v13TxUiHdBWn9A-xuhA?key=UmptLTRiUVZOTWFzWFI2TTlZN2luYVdscm03dlhB
[/img]

The second one appeared after Curaçao sees all five colors combined and is a recalled memory from her, it shows Rum's id number?

Check them out and share what you think?
Last edited by Spimer on July 18th, 2017, 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Combined your posts, please try to avoid multiple posting
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
Spimer
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User avatar

Do not underestimate the power of the Dark Side of the Force!

Posts: 879

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby Spimer » July 18th, 2017, 11:54 am

Hello, welcome to the community!

Regarding the M20 pics: first one only shows "No. 002" which we already knew, RUM is the number two of the BO.

Second one is an X-ray of Curaçao's brain with Conan recalling that the amusement park medic having told him and the police about an odd anomaly on her brain which is triggered by those colored cards and allows her to photographically store information without the need of a camera or digital means. So there's no need to look too deeply into it.
"I shall revive again, again AND AGAIN!"
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 153

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby Zerozaki4869 » July 23rd, 2017, 3:39 am

blackmoon wrote:
Spoiler:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:
k11chi wrote:
Zerozaki4869 wrote:Ok. So the list before Sherry altered it had Shinichi's status as Unconfirmed, later Sherry changed it. But does it mean based on this one can imply that Kohji wasn't killed by APTX as the list can be altered?
BTW is the Japanese raw with Eng text below is already out?

No, but it opens certains possibilities regarding people, even 3rd parties manipulating the list to save someone like Kuroda, Mary or Papa Akai. It's hard to save Kohji anymore unless the dead body that the public found was not Kohji...


That's my point dude, too many of the people around here tend to discard something as basic as this to make their speculation sound more possible.

dccd wrote:

We have enough proof to determine, that Kohji left a dying message. The cut out "U" shape confirms this. That type of glass shard can't be generated by falling and breaking.
If Haneda was able to write a dying message it means he wanted to convey something which he didn't want the killer to witness.(Else a writing by his blood would have been enough.)
So this proves he was going to leave the name of the killer; BO is pretty much observant about anything which resembles the dying message or is somehow related to Kohji case. This means BO thinks that the dying message has some merit to trace out Haneda's killer.
Haneda Kohji case is Rum's headache and Rum screwed it up, so the issue points directly to Rum.
So it's a logical decution that Rum is the target of the dying message.
Now Rum is just a code-name, it means virtually nothing, so the dying message is something more direct(Rum's social name).
So it's confirmed, Haneda knew Rum's social/real name, that's what is the dying message. Now the debate can be what is Rum's real name? What is the true meaning of the dying message? Is there something more to it? We're not in 2015-16 anymore, the plot is clearing up with every passing case, if this debate was happening back in 2016 I would have understood, but it makes no sense now.


I have a completely different theory on the case from 17 years ago involving Kohji Haneda and Amanda Hughes deaths:

1) Amanda Hughes handed something to Kohji that was important to the BO (Black Organization), it could be the proto-type drug of APTX 4869.

2) Rum was supposed to retrieve that thing from Amanda (not sure how Amanda died, most likely poisoned by Rum) but after knowing the thing was not with Amanda, he\she had to fight and even kill Kohji to retrieve the thing. (It would explain why Kohji's room was all messed up; the chaos left-over from the search. It would also explain the bruises on Kohji's body and why there were no apparant bruises on Amanda's body.)

3) Kohji was holding something in his hand tightly (to protect and prevent it from being taken) before he died, which I believe is the thing that Rum took away from him after killing him, and it was the thing that Amanda handed to Kohji.

4) Some people suggested that what Kohji held in his hand prior to his death was a Shogi piece (as an important additional clue to his dying message), but apparantly there were no Shogi set in his room, so where did the Shogi piece came from? And some people suggested that what he held in hand was the scissor used to 'cut' out the dying message from words on a hand mirror. Yet, the dying message could be a set up arranged by the culprit (Rum) to 'frame' Asaka the body guard, which fled and escaped from the scene (whom Rum failed to kill; hence his\her screw up in this case).

In summary, I don't believe the dying message was left by Kohji but rather set up by culprit (Rum) to frame and lure out the escaped body guard (Asaka), which was considered as a screw up for him\her because he\she let that witness escaped. What was held in Kohji's hand was not a Shogi piece but something the BO was after and took away after killing him.

Spoiler:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
sadsun15 wrote:Anyways, just wanted to ask, what do you think of Wakasa so far? In terms of personality I mean. She kinda got me hooked after knocking out those robbers. And from what I've read from your posts (correct me if I'm wrong or misread), we can assume that Wakasa is a good person? Cause I would like to think so...she's so bad-ass and all.. o/////o
Wakasa is the type of person who is willing to let a murder case go forward in order to get close to Conan instead of intervening or calling the police. At the same time she is a kind assistant in the classroom who is willing to jump into a dangerous situation to rescue Ayumi. Basically the exact same Ayumi-saved-from-hostage-taker-by-provoking-him-with-words scenario happened a long time ago with Okiya (ikkaku rock) before we knew his true identity. Ai was still not willing to trust him and told Conan to throw him out of Shinichi's house afterwards. That tells me Wakasa didn't frighten Ai as much as Okiya did back then (so maybe Rumi is not emitting a BO Aura?), and Haibara's word to Conan that she is a good person is gold in my book.
I see Wakasa's personality as conflicted. She is driven by a "dark" motive that sometimes, like in the camping case, completely consumes her thoughts until she no longer pays attention to what is going on around her. On the other hand, I don't think she is an especially good actor -- because we see these flashes of her dark-side come through in front of other people -- so that leaves me to believe her warm classroom behavior is also genuine. The way I have reconciled this behavior in my theories is by assuming she is basically a good person, but she has an aggressive "badass" side from being a former bodyguard for a high level person and she has been hunting for the answer to a 17 years old case she is the primary suspect of.
This isn't a very good analogy, but I think Wakasa's personality is the type which be born if you took the kind and tough Ran, killed Shinichi in a mysterious case, and forced Ran to be on the run as a primary suspect. She'd still be a kind person, but she'd never stop searching, and she might be willing to do some nasty things to find clues and get vengeance.


Well, I have a completely new perspective. What if Rumi isn't Rum but rather that female bodyguard of Amanda called Asaka that some how escaped from being killed by Rum and went into hiding until begging the case from 17 years ago to be solved by someone by posting photos of the scene through the internet which Conan spotted. That would explain her 'dark' flash backs, which you mentioned during camping case, similar to what Bourbon\Amuro had when he was recalling painful memories of Scotch. Maybe Rumi was related to the 17 years old case.

There are two images from the Conan movie 20, The Darkest Nightmare about Rum that is interesting.

The first one appeared when Conan first picked up the five colored cards dropped by Curaçao (キュラソー Kyurasō), a Black Organization
member who appears as the main antagonist in movie. The strange symbol appeared after all five colors are combined and it looks like a shape of a mouse or beaver. Could it be a hint about Rum (Curaçao was saved by Rum and is his\her agent)?

[img]https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO1ZfRb2RcdZJr8goN9D7WZE4ixCxNTlf02dShHbxA7Xq9v13TxUiHdBWn9A-xuhA?key=UmptLTRiUVZOTWFzWFI2TTlZN2luYVdscm03dlhB
[/img]

The second one appeared after Curaçao sees all five colors combined and is a recalled memory from her, it shows Rum's id number?

Check them out and share what you think?



I've two questions for you,

1) Will a tightly held capsule capable enough to leave a bruise mark in someone's palm?

2) If Amanda had ties with CIA/FBI why did she confided in Haneda?

2.1) If Rum left the message to implicate Asaka, then why BO is so jumpy about the mention of the part of the dying message in "Asaca" song case?

2.2) The backing of the mirror was never removed, big chunks of glass shard are also missing from the mirror. How are you going to deny that the mirror wasn't broken in the first place?

2.3) Why Haneda's bruise marks tally with a defensive scissors grip not with a cutting grip?
blackmoon
User avatar
Posts: 23

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby blackmoon » July 24th, 2017, 6:21 am

Spimer wrote:Hello, welcome to the community!

Regarding the M20 pics: first one only shows "No. 002" which we already knew, RUM is the number two of the BO.

Second one is an X-ray of Curaçao's brain with Conan recalling that the amusement park medic having told him and the police about an odd anomaly on her brain which is triggered by those colored cards and allows her to photographically store information without the need of a camera or digital means. So there's no need to look too deeply into it.


Hello Spimer! Thank you for the welcome!
So... you're saying that the screen shot which showed Curaçao and Vermouth in their "human" form while portraying RUM in digital form of flashing numbers and codes (almost like the Matrix movie or something from a computer game) could not possibly be a further hint to his identity? (His background or profession that maybe he's a programmer?)

And so... you say " there's no need to look too deeply into it." But don't think that part of her "brain" looks like a red-colored crescent moon? And the outline shape of the brain really looks like Micky Mouse? ;D

Nice quote you have, so which anime\anime character is your profile picture from? It looks like a guy sitting in a Toclafane.
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
blackmoon
User avatar
Posts: 23

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby blackmoon » July 24th, 2017, 6:49 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:I've two questions for you,

1) Will a tightly held capsule capable enough to leave a bruise mark in someone's palm?

2) If Amanda had ties with CIA/FBI why did she confided in Haneda?

2.1) If Rum left the message to implicate Asaka, then why BO is so jumpy about the mention of the part of the dying message in "Asaca" song case?

2.2) The backing of the mirror was never removed, big chunks of glass shard are also missing from the mirror. How are you going to deny that the mirror wasn't broken in the first place?

2.3) Why Haneda's bruise marks tally with a defensive scissors grip not with a cutting grip?


Good questions Zerozaki4869!

1) Maybe... what he was holding was not the actual capsule but a container for the capsule, maybe even a capsule stuffed in a miniature figurine like the one treasured by Ai Haibara as shown in File 997-998? ;D

2) WHY? Maybe because Haneda had past ties with Tsutomu Akai or the Akai family? Why else would Masumi Sera and Mary Sera seem to know and care about the Haneda case from 17 years ago, and Shuichi Akai mentioning to Conan about his father's involvement in the case. And the Akai family... maybe connected to FBI? Why else would Shuichi be able to join FBI so easily? You think anyone can join FBI without ties and connections? 8-)

2.1) Because Rum screw up and let Asaka escaped so he had to frame Asaka for the mess he\she did, and BO is jumpy because anything related to Asak(c)a could lead to a trace back to their involvement in the case and their failure to kill\find the witness Asaka.

2.2) I don't see the point for bringing this up... breaking the mirror could be done by anyone, and it doesn't justify or be the evidence proving WHO broke it (unless you check for finger prints.)

2.3) Because he was holding the scissor with a defensive grip to HIDE whatever ELSE he was holding in his palm, yet unfortunately once Rum pried open his palm after killing him, he\she was able to find that thing he was hiding in his palm and took away from him.
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
Zerozaki4869
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Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby Zerozaki4869 » July 27th, 2017, 10:59 pm

About Haneda's involvement, your theory holds no water. Akai mentioned in the Clenched scissors case that his father wasn't with FBI.

So the thing is even if Tsutomu was with CIA, why he would tell Haneda about his mission?(IF it was to protect a possible witness "Amanda") Kohji was neither an agent or an NPA operative.(It's not that easy, there are rigorous examinations and one can only join FBI?CIA if they have US citizenship. Tsutomu was likely an UK citizen.)

The problem with your Asaka theory is that BO looks more interested in parts of "U MASCARA" not Asaka. IF that was the case they would be very jumpy about the Soul detective case. But which apparently wasn't given the same importance in comparison to the "Asaca" song case.
So BO is more interested in "U MASCARA" than Asaka.

The point here is "The mirror message" is just a "Red herring" the mirror just happened to be broken. The mirror can't be cut like that, with backing. So it's not dying message of Haneda. The dying message was what he held in his palm.(NOT APTX is a shogi shaped object)
Your assumption of that point relies on three independent co-occurring assumptions (Amanda had one aptx , she also had a shogi shaped container, she gave it Haneda despite having CIA/FBI agents around herself.) Sorry to say your theory is very unlikeley and if we use Occam's razor it gets scraped away. Because your assertions don't make the scenario more likely than the present hypothesis.

Why would Rum try to pry open a dead Haneda's palm? Rum couldn't even clean up the scenario as he was lacking time? He probably won't pry his fists open as he had no idea that Haneda was hiding something in his palm.
blackmoon
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Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby blackmoon » July 27th, 2017, 11:54 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:About Haneda's involvement, your theory holds no water. Akai mentioned in the Clenched scissors case that his father wasn't with FBI.

So the thing is even if Tsutomu was with CIA, why he would tell Haneda about his mission?(IF it was to protect a possible witness "Amanda") Kohji was neither an agent or an NPA operative.(It's not that easy, there are rigorous examinations and one can only join FBI?CIA if they have US citizenship. Tsutomu was likely an UK citizen.)

The problem with your Asaka theory is that BO looks more interested in parts of "U MASCARA" not Asaka. IF that was the case they would be very jumpy about the Soul detective case. But which apparently wasn't given the same importance in comparison to the "Asaca" song case.
So BO is more interested in "U MASCARA" than Asaka.

The point here is "The mirror message" is just a "Red herring" the mirror just happened to be broken. The mirror can't be cut like that, with backing. So it's not dying message of Haneda. The dying message was what he held in his palm.(NOT APTX is a shogi shaped object)
Your assumption of that point relies on three independent co-occurring assumptions (Amanda had one aptx , she also had a shogi shaped container, she gave it Haneda despite having CIA/FBI agents around herself.) Sorry to say your theory is very unlikeley and if we use Occam's razor it gets scraped away. Because your assertions don't make the scenario more likely than the present hypothesis.

Why would Rum try to pry open a dead Haneda's palm? Rum couldn't even clean up the scenario as he was lacking time? He probably won't pry his fists open as he had no idea that Haneda was hiding something in his palm.


Okay, let's examine the 'possibility' of each scenario:

1. Yes, Akai mentioned that his father wasn't with FBI, but he also ended the sentence with a "...BUT..." which indicated that Tsutomu MAYBE with CIA or MAYBE a private detective or MAYBE connected to people in FBI or MAYBE he has connections to people in police department or MAYBE he was a body guard for hire under the name Asaka??? It leaves all these possibilities open.

2. "Why Tsutomu would tell Haneda about his mission?"
No, it is said in the manga that Amanda was acquainted with Haneda (and if you think about it, why would an old lady with connections to FBI\CIA associate herself with a mere civilian chess player like Haneda? IF Haneda did not have some POSSIBLE connections to FBI\CIA himself?) MAYBE Haneda knows about Tsutomu through Amanda and MAYBE he has connections or know people from FBI\CIA himself? Haneda's association with Amanda who associated herself with FBI\CIA PROVES that he has CONNECTIONS to FBI\CIA).

3. So BO is more interested in "U MASCARA" than Asaka. MAYBE BO is more interested in the "suppose to be dying message" because they are interested in the PERSON of WHOEVER knows about the existence of this dying message? Such as Asaka who managed to escape and disappear? BUT that does not prove that "U MASCARA" IS the REAL dying message because it could have been altered\changed by someone else and even maybe by RUM himself\herself?

4. Okay, now this part you confuse me, you said "The dying message was what he (Haneda) held in his palm." And then you said: "Why would Rum try to pry open a dead Haneda's palm?... He probably won't pry his fists open as he had no idea that Haneda was hiding something in his palm." IF that is case, then WHERE did his dying message that was left in his palm gone? Because apparently whatever was held in his palm was gone and the photo of his dying hand shows his palm being pry opened rather than a clenched fist, so MAYBE he really did held something in his palm that was taken away? (since many people pointed out a bruise mark in middle of his palm)

5. "Rum couldn't even clean up the scenario as he was lacking time?"
I don't agree with RUM did not clean up because Ai mentioned that BO would ALWAYS clean up the scene afterwards, and she also mentioned that leaving the room all messy did NOT look like BO's pattern of doing things (meaning it is impossible for BO to leave the scene that way.) Amanda was murdered in her room, which was all neat and tidy, so [b]MAYBE[/b] THAT room is where the ACTUAL murder took place and RUM DID clean up Amanda's room after committing the crime. BUT someone else wanted to call forth and bring attention to the public of what was done to both Amanda and Haneda so deliberately messed up Haneda's room to call attention that there was a struggle that happened in the room. (The messy room MAYBE done by someone else rather than the actual scene left unclean by RUM). Who else could have messed up the room other than the body guard Asaka who escaped afterwards? (I'm assuming that Asaka was not RUM and they are two separate people)
Last edited by blackmoon on July 27th, 2017, 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
Zerozaki4869
Posts: 153

Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby Zerozaki4869 » July 28th, 2017, 10:58 am

I fell like, that you're replying without getting the meaning of things which I had pointed out, so I'll elucidate my points again.

1) Akai Tsutomu wasn't with FBI. He also was very less likely to be with CIA.(As these two organizations need US citizenship.) So what could have been his profession? We only knew that he was a curious person who sometimes went too far for his curiosity.(How about a Crime reporter?[This trait is detrimental for Law Enforcement Organization agents and Bodyguards but is very adored in Reporters.])

2) You again misread my gripe. You said that Haneda could have past ties with Tsutomu Akai. I only asked you even if that was the case, why would he tell Haneda in the first place?
BTW you seem to ignore facts quite rampantly, It's stated in Manga that "Amanda was an avid Shogi fan and Haneda being the budding champion had good/cordial relationship with Amanda."
Shogi is the connection and don't for a moment consider Haneda as your average Joe.

3) The question is why Asaka is not considered a threat to BO while anything close to "U MASCARA" makes them jumpy?[Remember what Gin had to say, "That's a job which Rum screwed up, it doesn't concern me. I feel that Kogoro's involvement is quite suspicious so we will have to finish him if he becomes a threat." Gin is very aware and loyal to BO. If any info on Kohji case exposed BO, Gin would have said so. But it proves that the screw-up of the Kohji case is Rum's headache, which further substantiates that Asaka is also Rum's headache not organization's headache. Asaka is also considered the prime suspect of the case. If Asaka disappeared/flown from the scene and had info which would have incriminated Rum, then as a cascading effect BO also gets dragged in. Which isn't the case that means BO has nothing to be afraid about Asaka.]
On the Other-hand if "U MASCARA" constitutes a good part of Rum's romanized social name then it makes pretty obvious for BO to be jumpy and it also indicates that Haaneda was in a position to leave a dying message which could incriminate his killer.

4) The problem here is that you again failed to understand my gripe. You forced answers on certain unverified questions(Like Haneda had a Shogi shaped pill-case, APTX was in there, Haneda grabbed it with last bit of his strength,) all these are unlikely scenarios as such a pill-case wasn't confirmed to exist, Rum had the APTX with him so how did the pill case came to Haneda? Why Haneda didn't try to stab Rum with the scissors? How was Rum so sure that the pill-case was in his palm? Even if Rum removed it from him why BO is still wary about "U MUSCARA"?

5) I don't like people who theorize on "may-be, ifs and buts." BTW a messy room corroborates with defensive wounds on Haneda's body and the smashed stuff in his room.
blackmoon
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Re: What's the identity of Rum?

Postby blackmoon » July 29th, 2017, 1:07 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:I fell like, that you're replying without getting the meaning of things which I had pointed out, so I'll elucidate my points again.

1) Akai Tsutomu wasn't with FBI. He also was very less likely to be with CIA.(As these two organizations need US citizenship.) So what could have been his profession? We only knew that he was a curious person who sometimes went too far for his curiosity.(How about a Crime reporter?[This trait is detrimental for Law Enforcement Organization agents and Bodyguards but is very adored in Reporters.])

2) You again misread my gripe. You said that Haneda could have past ties with Tsutomu Akai. I only asked you even if that was the case, why would he tell Haneda in the first place?
BTW you seem to ignore facts quite rampantly, It's stated in Manga that "Amanda was an avid Shogi fan and Haneda being the budding champion had good/cordial relationship with Amanda."
Shogi is the connection and don't for a moment consider Haneda as your average Joe.

3) The question is why Asaka is not considered a threat to BO while anything close to "U MASCARA" makes them jumpy?[Remember what Gin had to say, "That's a job which Rum screwed up, it doesn't concern me. I feel that Kogoro's involvement is quite suspicious so we will have to finish him if he becomes a threat." Gin is very aware and loyal to BO. If any info on Kohji case exposed BO, Gin would have said so. But it proves that the screw-up of the Kohji case is Rum's headache, which further substantiates that Asaka is also Rum's headache not organization's headache. Asaka is also considered the prime suspect of the case. If Asaka disappeared/flown from the scene and had info which would have incriminated Rum, then as a cascading effect BO also gets dragged in. Which isn't the case that means BO has nothing to be afraid about Asaka.]
On the Other-hand if "U MASCARA" constitutes a good part of Rum's romanized social name then it makes pretty obvious for BO to be jumpy and it also indicates that Haaneda was in a position to leave a dying message which could incriminate his killer.

4) The problem here is that you again failed to understand my gripe. You forced answers on certain unverified questions(Like Haneda had a Shogi shaped pill-case, APTX was in there, Haneda grabbed it with last bit of his strength,) all these are unlikely scenarios as such a pill-case wasn't confirmed to exist, Rum had the APTX with him so how did the pill case came to Haneda? Why Haneda didn't try to stab Rum with the scissors? How was Rum so sure that the pill-case was in his palm? Even if Rum removed it from him why BO is still wary about "U MUSCARA"?

5) I don't like people who theorize on "may-be, ifs and buts." BTW a messy room corroborates with defensive wounds on Haneda's body and the smashed stuff in his room.


Sure sure, thank you for restating and clarifying your points. Let's review and respond to each of your points following from 5 backwards:

(5) Okay, that is because you also ASSUME that the messy room was the working left uncleaned by RUM. I'm trying to point out there is no proof that RUM would leave the room messy because leaving the room messy would lead to suspicion and 'curious' people to look more into the case, which brings unwanted attention to this murder case if BO's intention was to eliminate both Amanda and Haneda without leaving a trace. Besides, if RUM really made such a big screw up I DOUBT he would be made No.2 later, it is not like BO not have strong agents like Gin and Vermouth, so if he was such weak a horse, why would the boss make him No.2? It makes no sense! (If I were the boss I'd gun him down myself if RUM screwed up so big this way... unless... RUM's my own child.) So, since nobody knew for sure what happened, it's only an ASSUMPTION that the messy room was the result of RUM fighting with Haneda then escaping without cleaning up. The messy room could be a scene set up made afterwards by someone who knew about BO and that person is likely to be Tsutomu who was involved in the case (to make news? who knows?)

(4) Yes, I'm assuming that Haneda had a pill-case containing APTX passed to him by Amanda because it would make sense. Why else would BO try to eliminate BOTH Amanda and Haneda? Amanda is an investor\financier so it's likely she also had involvement with BO by financing for APTX. BO found out her connections with FBI\CIA so they wanted to eliminate her; she knew her life was in danger so she must pass out whatever secret she kept in her hand (could be an APTX could be something else) to Haneda. After RUM murdered Amanda and searched the room (and cleaned up afterwards) without finding the stuff, RuM found out Amanda had contacted Haneda beforehand, so turned attention to Haneda for retrieving the thing. RUM likely fought with Haneda for it, which would explain Haneda's bruises. Why would RUM need to fight with Haneda and cause bruises instead of simply poisoning him with APTX as he\she did to Amanda if RUM was not after something that was with Haneda?
"Why Haneda didn't try to stab Rum with the scissors?" Is there any proof he DID NOT try to stab RUM with the scissors? Most likely he DID, which was the 'accident' that caused RUM to almost lose one eye (where would you stab a person with a scissor? in the eye of course, which probably look like how Kansuke Yamato (大和敢助) had an inverse A shaped scar in place of his left eye?)

(3) Okay, now I can read what you mean. So you're saying BO is not jumpy about Asaka but jumpy about the message U MASCARA, which constitutes a good part of Rum's romanized social name. Now explain why would Haneda know about RUM's romanized social name and know that name leads to RUM if Haneda was not acquainted with the person? By the way, only people who knew about the code name RUM would interpret the message leading to RUM so why would BO by jumpy about the message if the public does not know about them?? If it's just a romanized social name, it could be any name and refer to any person. (Say the name Bush was left at a crime scene, it would not necessary lead to a connection to President George Bush) Besides, there is no proof that what Conan assembled was the 'right' way to assemble the message (Asaca = RuM) could actually be (UMa Scar A).

(2) "Amanda was an avid Shogi fan and Haneda being the budding champion had good/cordial relationship with Amanda."
Shogi is the connection and don't for a moment consider Haneda as your average Joe.

Yeah sure, so you think Shogi is the ONLY connection for the two to connect? And why you think Haneda would associate himself with Amanda if she was ONLY a Shogi fan? If you're a pro Shogi player you have so much time to acquaint yourself with all your fans? I'm claiming they know each other from before due to FAMILY connections and that the person responsible for putting together that connection could be Tsutomu Akai. Do you not find it strange that Akai and Sera had a 'middle' brother by the name Shukichi Haneda who was also a shogi player like Kohji Haneda and they both have the name Haneda?

(1) Sure, to be an FBI or CIA require US citizenship but that does not mean you cannot be friends or acquaintance with someone in FBI or CIA like Amanda who wasn't FBI or CIA but knew people in FBI or CIA, and it could be the same case for Akai Tsutomu. Also, I like the idea of a Crime reporter... it's like Kir who operates under alias of Rena Mizunashi, a TV reporter. By the way, strange nobody seemed to take notice of an unknown old man who appeared in the Shiranpuri Case (Manga: 605-609, Anime: 501-504) who "appeared during Shuichi Akai's final loyalty test while he was waiting for Gin to arrive. FBI agent Andre Camel emerged from his hiding place to scare him away, thinking he was just an ordinary old man. Since Gin never appeared, it was very likely the old man was a member of the Black Organization who was sent to scout ahead and reported that "Dai Moroboshi" was a spy."
Last edited by blackmoon on July 29th, 2017, 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)

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