Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-898: Scarlet Series!

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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ALAKTORN

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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by ALAKTORN »

I’ve seen some people argue whether Conan knew or not of Kaitō’s presence on board of the MT, but isn’t it obvious that he knew based on their conversation in chapter 824? Kaitō needed to be on there for reconnaissance before his heist. Conan also says there that he knew Vermouth had planted C4 in the storage cargo (“They’ll probably try and corner her in the storage hold, where they’ve set some explosives, so be careful…”), so somehow he knew her plan too.

Basically Kaitō ruining everything by saying that there were explosives in the cargo makes no sense… Conan could’ve easily told him to stay quiet about it if that’s what he wanted him to do, since he knew there’d be explosives on it.

So I have no idea what to make of it. Just saying that Conan planned to make Kaitō cooperate from the start, and he knew about the explosives; wanted to clarify that because people seemed to not be sure about those things.
Paix672

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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Paix672 »

PhantomWriter wrote:I also don't understand it, Paix. It would be more advantageous if he were Org., to do that, instead of having him panic in the hopes of bringing out Akai. Too much risk that he'll evade Amuro enough to warn Akai or come up with a plan with Akai to trap him. That's part of the reason why I'm wondering if the 'very deep double agent' theory is correct.
I'm not convinced that Amuro is entirely antagonistic myself, but even if that were the case, it doesn't make much sense either. The entire organization were led to believe that Akai was actually dead. Bourbon was the one who came up with a ploy to confirm his death and initiated further investigations after the MT case. If he were a double agent, there's no reason for him open up that can of worms other than his personal vendetta. If he wanted to confront Akai himself, even as a double agent, there would no reason for him to tell Conan otherwise. He may not know about the Kudos' involvement, but it's certainly not farfetched for him to think that, Akai as Okiya, may be replaced with another FBI agent to trick Bourbon into thinking that Okiya isn't actually Akai.
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Stopwatch

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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Stopwatch »

@Paix: Given the reactions to Scar!Akai I think he's ruled out the FBI knowing anything about Akai faking his death.
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PhantomWriter
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by PhantomWriter »

irishock wrote:
PhantomWriter wrote: I'm getting mixed signals right now and I don't like it.
It's done on purpose.
I know. On top of that, a very observant person also at Baidu notes that Subaru has a different kind of pair of glasses than usual. For all these details, the ambiguity is something to keep note of, because it's either a red herring or it's a hint and we can't know until we get more information.

As for the question of allegiance, Paix, Amuro's a very contradictory character in that regard. I understand why he wouldn't want Conan thinking he was a double agent if he was: just look at what's happened with how Conan keeps accidentally revealing information about Akai, who he's supposed to help hide and who's clearly an ally. If I were in Amuro position and I weren't Organization, I would want to make Conan think I was still Organization. Whereas if I were Organization, I'd want Conan to think I was PSIA. Even with the possibility of scaring Conan into running off to Akai, there wouldn't be enough gain from that for Org!Amuro unless Amuro's got some sort of ace up his sleeve.

That vendetta or whatever is going on between Amuro and Akai better run very deep and be extremely serious, regardless of his allegiance, between walking into the lion's den and the whole issue of Vermouth and her protecting Conan...
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k11chi

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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by k11chi »

That's assuming Amuro is 100% cop or that Amuro is 100% org, he may just be an ex-cop who joined the org for his personal gains, which is Akai.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by bash7353 »

Paix672 wrote:I'm not exactly sure why Amuro didn't exploit Conan's misunderstanding about his allegiance -- that would have been strategically more viable to actually catch Akai off guard and ambush him. But since Amuro flat-out told Conan he's wrong, that gave them enough time to retaliate. He also knows that he can't trust Vermouth entirely, so I'm really curious to know what he has up his sleeve.
Right now, Bourbon is trying to expose Akai's death as fake and find him. What exactly he wants to do (probably kill him) or why we don't entirely know yet. But Bourbon already knows that most of the FBI's unaware of that since he appeared in front of them as Scar-Akai. I don't think Conan would've let him in on stuff like that even if he thought Bourbon was Japanese intelligence. He knows he has to figure things out himself and also he's on a good way. Trying to maintain a cover and making Conan think he is something that he isn't would only make things more complicated and isn't really necessary considering how close he already is.

Also, he is enjoying himself there. Personally, I liked watching Conan's reaction to Bourbon telling him he's wrong and I get the feeling Amuro did, too.

On the topic of Bourbon trusting Vermouth, I think he might actually be unaware of Vernouth's real intentions and doesn't understand what is really going on. He may have promised her to protect Conan, but I doubt he understands why. At least not the real reason. It's not in Bourbon's best interest to trust Vermouth, but I think at this point, he may be.
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Paix672

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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Paix672 »

Right. Can't believe I forgot about the fact that he knew about the FBI not being involved. Either way, that prompted Conan and Co. to come up with a fallback plan, and I'm not sure how that really benefits Amuro. But I guess what Phantom said about Conan slipping up and risking his cover being blown up in the process seems plausible.

And yes, watching Conan freak out is too much fun to pass up. :-X
Last edited by Paix672 on April 20th, 2014, 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kudo Shinchi
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Kudo Shinchi »

Bourbon's true allegiance is indeed a bit confusing. I don't think we're done with the PSIA, in any case; Gosho wouldn't have gone to the trouble of mentioning them if they weren't going to have some role in the future story in some shape or form. Gosho's style is that if he drops in any piece of information, no matter how trivial, it's probably important.

Amuro's almost certainly not a double agent, though. We've seen the signs of a double agent before in Kir, and they aren't really present in Amuro. His whole Scar Akai plan endangered the lives of hundreds of innocents around him because it drew out the Black Organization, he reported Shiho's appearance at Gunma to Vermouth immediately despite the fact that she was the daughter of someone apparently dear to him (Elena), was planning to take Shiho back to the BO where she would almost certainly be killed, and in the most recent case Conan mentioned that Amuro may have been planning to run over Natsuko, a completely innocent lady, to get her into a hospital if she hadn't been attacked first. These are all the actions of someone loyal to the Organization and someone who doesn't mind hurting innocents to get what he wants. Bourbon isn't anywhere near as cold-blooded and malicious as the likes of Gin and Chianti, but he's not exactly innocent, either. I find the possibility of him being a double agent rather remote and difficult to believe.

I think Bourbon's figured out that Vermouth's protecting Conan and has taken it to mean that Conan was involved in Akai's fake death plan. If the promise he made with Vermouth was that he would protect Conan, then he would know that Vermouth had a special reason to care about the kid. He kept looking at Vermouth when she was arguing against Akai's death this latest chapter, and had empty speech bubbles as he did, which is usually Gosho's way of indicating that a character is thinking curiously or suspiciously about something. He figured that her behavior meant that she was trying to protect Conan. At this point Bourbon and Vermouth's partnership has for the most part collapsed. Bourbon's on his own, and it'll be interesting to see what he does since he's up against Conan, Akai, and possibly Yuusaku all together.
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

PhantomWriter wrote: I know. On top of that, a very observant person also at Baidu notes that Subaru has a different kind of pair of glasses than usual. For all these details, the ambiguity is something to keep note of, because it's either a red herring or it's a hint and we can't know until we get more information.
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PhantomWriter
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by PhantomWriter »

Yeah, I wouldn't have noticed if they hadn't pointed it out. So far, I've eliminated the following character's pairs of glasses, using that train of thought: Yuusaku, James, Makoto, Shuukichi, Conan, Eri, Jodie, Agasa, and Eisuke.

And what bothers me is why wouldn't Akai give up his disguise's glasses to another person for the disguise, assuming Subaru isn't Akai at this time. Or why did Akai suddenly switch pairs of glasses. Is it a red herring? Or is there a trick involved? If the former situation and not a red herring, I'm assuming they couldn't get his glasses for whatever reason, possibly to maintain the disguise. If there's a trick involved, I'm curious of if there's a gadget of some kind in the glasses like with Conan's. If this is a person who's disguised, I'm guessing the whole "vibrations stimulating the eardrums" thing so there's no earpiece. If it's Akai, I'm assuming there's something in the glasses.

Of course, using the crack theory that there's actually a Subaru, he was told by Akai what was going on and requires glasses to correct his vision.

The style of the glasses is more feminine and reminds me of some gifs of the anime I saw where Haibara wore a similar pair, though...
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

PhantomWriter wrote:Yeah, I wouldn't have noticed if they hadn't pointed it out. So far, I've eliminated the following character's pairs of glasses, using that train of thought: Yuusaku, James, Makoto, Shuukichi, Conan, Eri, Jodie, Agasa, and Eisuke.

And what bothers me is why wouldn't Akai give up his disguise's glasses to another person for the disguise, assuming Subaru isn't Akai at this time. Or why did Akai suddenly switch pairs of glasses. Is it a red herring? Or is there a trick involved? If the former situation and not a red herring, I'm assuming they couldn't get his glasses for whatever reason, possibly to maintain the disguise. If there's a trick involved, I'm curious of if there's a gadget of some kind in the glasses like with Conan's. If this is a person who's disguised, I'm guessing the whole "vibrations stimulating the eardrums" thing so there's no earpiece. If it's Akai, I'm assuming there's something in the glasses.

Of course, using the crack theory that there's actually a Subaru, he was told by Akai what was going on and requires glasses to correct his vision.

The style of the glasses is more feminine and reminds me of some gifs of the anime I saw where Haibara wore a similar pair, though...
The glasses trick works by having glasses that are badly adjusted for the person's eyes which forces them to squint. Maybe Okiya's glasses would not work on that person because their prescription is similar to the ones Okiya is using?

Also I can rule out Araide, not that he was a likely candidate to begin with. They aren't the glasses Bourbon originally wore in his intro. Not sure about Elena's (that would be a mindscrew).
Paix672

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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Paix672 »

Very good catch indeed!

I also find it curious that, assuming the current Okiya isn't Akai, they don't appear to be using the same mechanism (whatever it may be) that Akai uses to change his voice. I suppose that could be Gosho's way of hinting to the readers that it might be someone other than Akai, but it might also tip-off Amuro to the trick involved, especially considering that he's done a similar thing before in the Shrine case and that he hasn't heard Okiya speak before.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Dyka_13 »

Ive checked through all the characters in DCW and a chara with that glasses doesnt seem to exist... Would that just mean Yuusaku being the one in disguise as he is already previously using glasses(so as Chek had stated, stronger lensed glasses is needed to make him squint)

About the mask, I can only think of 2 logical outcome

1. Mask is really used as a voice changer(someone completely new to the disguise. ie. yuusaku), but will be revealed by Amuro.
2. Mask is used as a psychology trick against bourbon, shinichi has something in plan(as always...)

We all know that bourbon had used the same method, and we also know that previously, either subaru or his double(with collar, etc.)had never needed a mask to alter his voice, so these two are the only 'logical' outcomes I can think of... but then, Gosho can do anything :p
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

One of the reasons I think it is likely we have a fake Okiya right now is if Bourbon has some plan which threatens someone as insurance to make sure he isn't attacked or because he wants to force Okiya to reveal his identity, it would be extremely useful to have the real Akai free to move. Akai presumably knows Bourbon better than anyone here. Amuro almost certainly expects Conan to intervene and will have designed countermeasures against that, but he doesn't know who else will assist. Amuro thinks he has Akai pinned down right now, so having the real Akai moving in the shadows will be to team Shin-chan's advantage, much like it was on the Mystery Train.

Edit: And we can definitely expect some sort of gadget help from Agasa, considering Conan spent a long time whispering to him. Adapted gadget, new gadget, something else?
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on April 20th, 2014, 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dyka_13

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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Dyka_13 »

I agree... and to be honest, I cant really see too much of a chance for bourbon to 'win' bearing in mind his limited backup(only vermouth knows as far as we know, and according to their convo, it implies that Vermouth wouldnt be involved-although im sure she would)

In the other hand, Shinichi has Akai with him and possibly Yuusaku at least(dont think Shinichi would get FBI involved, after their recent stupidity)3 characters that has been shown as 'geniuses'(although recent hiccups by Conan)

Anyways, I think Im thinking too much about it, as we are only in the first(or second) chapter, and theres still some more till 900... I dont think anything big would happen at shinichis house, so I guess another location will be introduced.

Well, I still dont think that Bourbon could really gain much, I would think the one most at risk, at this point in the story, is only Kir...
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