Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-898: Scarlet Series!

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Yuki_JX
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Yuki_JX » April 23rd, 2014, 10:53 pm

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Yuki_JX wrote:If Amuro theorized that Akai faked his own death to begin with. He may be considering that the video may already been tampered and he fears after seeing the video may lead him away far from truth. So after he gathered some intels, he is now confident enough to see the video.
I don't think that is the case; it sounds like Bourbon might not have had access to the video at all. He had to ask Vermouth for permission to see some materials related to Akai's death in 824. If Vermouth had to offer to him the chance to watch the recording, then he probably didn't have access.


That also possible. But Amuro already received the boss's permission to verify Akai's death and he may ask the boss directly to have access to the video.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Paix672 » April 23rd, 2014, 11:38 pm

The_evilbit wrote:Keep in mind however even though Amuro didn't fire his gun, he didn't intervene in Shiho's "death" either. In fact he smiled and accepted it as fate. Not sure I support the idea that Amuro is close to the Miyanos when he appears indifferent in Shiho's suffering. If role reversal was introduced and it was Vermouth pointing a gun at Kid disguised as Shinichi, you better believe she will put on an act though in the end sabotage/botch the assassination attempt. So to say Amuro was close to the Miyanos but didn't even lift a finger to help Shiho, he either knew that Shiho on the MT was fake or he has no ties to them whatsoever other than an individual that resembles their mother.

I agree with this. And more importantly, why did he report finding her in the first place? Even if his initial mission was to track down Sherry, he could have just stalled it by not disclosing the fact that he found her.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » April 24th, 2014, 12:44 am

Yuki_JX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Yuki_JX wrote:If Amuro theorized that Akai faked his own death to begin with. He may be considering that the video may already been tampered and he fears after seeing the video may lead him away far from truth. So after he gathered some intels, he is now confident enough to see the video.
I don't think that is the case; it sounds like Bourbon might not have had access to the video at all. He had to ask Vermouth for permission to see some materials related to Akai's death in 824. If Vermouth had to offer to him the chance to watch the recording, then he probably didn't have access.


That also possible. But Amuro already received the boss's permission to verify Akai's death and he may ask the boss directly to have access to the video.
The panel I posted indicates that Amuro hasn't seen the video yet.
Yuki_JX
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Yuki_JX » April 24th, 2014, 2:05 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Yuki_JX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Yuki_JX wrote:If Amuro theorized that Akai faked his own death to begin with. He may be considering that the video may already been tampered and he fears after seeing the video may lead him away far from truth. So after he gathered some intels, he is now confident enough to see the video.
I don't think that is the case; it sounds like Bourbon might not have had access to the video at all. He had to ask Vermouth for permission to see some materials related to Akai's death in 824. If Vermouth had to offer to him the chance to watch the recording, then he probably didn't have access.


That also possible. But Amuro already received the boss's permission to verify Akai's death and he may ask boss directly to have access to the video.
The panel I posted indicates that Amuro thehasn't seen the video yet.


I will make its more clearly.
The possibility that Amuro don't have an access to video because of Vermouth is less possible, because the only problem in this theory is the fact Amuro asked the boss's permission to verify Akai's death. It is very odd if the case is: the boss gave permission to verify Akai's death, but didn't gave/forbid Amuro an access to said video which is the best lead to Akai's death. As now Amuro received the boss's permission, Amuro now have the possible access to said video.

Given the facts that Amuro hasn't seen the video yet and an access to video (by the use boss's permission granted to him), the best theory in line is that Amuro chose not to see the video because he considered the possibility of tampering in said video and he fear it may influence his views/deductions/investigation on Akai's death. As Amuro gained some intel and leads has gain more confidence on watching the video.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » April 24th, 2014, 2:37 am

Yuki_JX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Yuki_JX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Yuki_JX wrote:If Amuro theorized that Akai faked his own death to begin with. He may be considering that the video may already been tampered and he fears after seeing the video may lead him away far from truth. So after he gathered some intels, he is now confident enough to see the video.
I don't think that is the case; it sounds like Bourbon might not have had access to the video at all. He had to ask Vermouth for permission to see some materials related to Akai's death in 824. If Vermouth had to offer to him the chance to watch the recording, then he probably didn't have access.
That also possible. But Amuro already received the boss's permission to verify Akai's death and he may ask boss directly to have access to the video.
The panel I posted indicates that Amuro hasn't seen the video yet.
I will make its more clearly.
The possibility that Amuro don't have an access to video because of Vermouth is less possible, because the only problem in this theory is the fact Amuro asked the boss's permission to verify Akai's death. It is very odd if the case is: the boss gave permission to verify Akai's death, but didn't gave/forbid Amuro an access to said video which is the best lead to Akai's death. As now Amuro received the boss's permission, Amuro now have the possible access to said video.

Given the facts that Amuro hasn't seen the video yet and an access to video (by the use boss's permission granted to him), the best theory in line is that Amuro chose not to see the video because he considered the possibility of tampering in said video and he fear it may influence his views/deductions/investigation on Akai's death. As Amuro gained some intel and leads has gain more confidence on watching the video.
I don't think your theory is correct because it does not seem reasonable for a person with Amuro's personality to avoid the video of Akai's death because he thinks it would be misleading. Amuro is an aggressive person who is willing to walk into a dangerous or potentially misleading situation to prove his point. He did so this very file by going to the Kudo house to confront Okiya.

While it seems reasonable to assume the boss's permission to investigate Akai's death would also include the freedom to see the files and videos of Akai's death, the facts say that Amuro was not given this access even if he was given permission to disguise as Akai. In the last page or two of file 824, Amuro had to ask Vermouth for permission to see certain files about Akai's death. That means Amuro is not free to view them on his own. In 894, Vermouth had to offer Amuro access to the video taken by Kir's camera. That again implies Amuro is not free to view the video on his own.

Sometimes the facts defy your expectations about what is reasonable. This is very often the case for communication between people in Detective Conan.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby ALAKTORN » April 24th, 2014, 2:44 am

Chekhov, do you think that would imply anything? Maybe Amuro is a low-level agent…? He’s codenamed, but I’m sure even within the codenamed ranks there is a hierarchy, I can’t think of Vodka being on the same level as Gin…
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » April 24th, 2014, 2:57 am

ALAKTORN wrote:Chekhov, do you think that would imply anything? Maybe Amuro is a low-level agent…? He’s codenamed, but I’m sure even within the codenamed ranks there is a hierarchy, I can’t think of Vodka being on the same level as Gin…
I think it implies what you think, Amuro is lower on the hierarchy scale than Vermouth.

I'm not sure how hierarchy is determined within the codename ranks. The FBI believe certain codenamers are "executive agents" who are closer to the boss (see Gin). Pisco said he had been working a long time, so maybe time has something to do with it. Bourbon has been recently activated so that could work against him. It might also be trust based: i.e. the more trust you have with the boss, the more privileges you get and the more other agents have to listen to you. Your guess is as good as mine, Alaktorn.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Yuki_JX » April 24th, 2014, 5:48 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Yuki_JX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Yuki_JX wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Yuki_JX wrote:If Amuro theorized that Akai faked his own death to begin with. He may be considering that the video may already been tampered and he fears after seeing the video may lead him away far from truth. So after he gathered some intels, he is now confident enough to see the video.
I don't think that is the case; it sounds like Bourbon might not have had access to the video at all. He had to ask Vermouth for permission to see some materials related to Akai's death in 824. If Vermouth had to offer to him the chance to watch the recording, then he probably didn't have access.
That also possible. But Amuro already received the boss's permission to verify Akai's death and he may ask boss directly to have access to the video.
The panel I posted indicates that Amuro hasn't seen the video yet.
I will make its more clearly.
The possibility that Amuro don't have an access to video because of Vermouth is less possible, because the only problem in this theory is the fact Amuro asked the boss's permission to verify Akai's death. It is very odd if the case is: the boss gave permission to verify Akai's death, but didn't gave/forbid Amuro an access to said video which is the best lead to Akai's death. As now Amuro received the boss's permission, Amuro now have the possible access to said video.

Given the facts that Amuro hasn't seen the video yet and an access to video (by the use boss's permission granted to him), the best theory in line is that Amuro chose not to see the video because he considered the possibility of tampering in said video and he fear it may influence his views/deductions/investigation on Akai's death. As Amuro gained some intel and leads has gain more confidence on watching the video.
I don't think your theory is correct because it does not seem reasonable for a person with Amuro's personality to avoid the video of Akai's death because he thinks it would be misleading. Amuro is an aggressive person who is willing to walk into a dangerous or potentially misleading situation to prove his point. He did so this very file by going to the Kudo house to confront Okiya.

While it seems reasonable to assume the boss's permission to investigate Akai's death would also include the freedom to see the files and videos of Akai's death, the facts say that Amuro was not given this access even if he was given permission to disguise as Akai. In the last page or two of file 824, Amuro had to ask Vermouth for permission to see certain files about Akai's death. That means Amuro is not free to view them on his own. In 894, Vermouth had to offer Amuro access to the video taken by Kir's camera. That again implies Amuro is not free to view the video on his own.

Sometimes the facts defy your expectations about what is reasonable. This is very often the case for communication between people in Detective Conan.


This exactly what Amuro said on 824
Amuro: The detailed files from before and after Akai's death...
Amuro: Can I see them one more time?
Vermouth: Yes...

"Can I see them one more time?" It implies that Amuro already seen these files before probably after the boss gave him the permission. The question is why he need to ask Vermouth first? The probable answer is because the way they handle there Classified Information are the same as CIA, FBI and other Intelligences Agency which needed Certain Level of Security Clearance to access these files/materials and its one time only. The files probably classified as "Top Secret" (Highest to all) to Black Org, which few members can only access like Vermouth, The BO Boss, and probably Gin. These files/materials may range to handwritten documents, reports, digital data, audio, and videos.

Spoiler:
Image



This exactly what Amuro said on 894
Vermouth: If that's what you suspect, would you like to see the video of Akai being shot?
Amuro: Ah, yes... The video that was taken via a hidden camera around Kir's neck...

"Ah, yes... The video that was taken via a hidden camera around Kir's neck..." It implies that Amuro already knew the existence of the video which he described how the video was taken.

The question is if Amuro already gain an access to these files, not only once but twice, then why he ignore the video? In 824 he said "The detailed files from before and after Akai's death.." therefore any files/materials, including the video is included from before and after Akai's death.

Spoiler:
Image
kkuuddoo
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby kkuuddoo » April 24th, 2014, 10:26 am

I think that Amuro somehow got distracted by akai throwing a grande.

I actually found it weird for shiho to raise her hand as amuro points his gun out
as for vermouth trying to kill her in the Halloween episode, haibara does not seem the type of person to do so.
and also when she met with Gin, she didn't raise her hands at all.

it either amuro knows shiho way of acting, probably got a warning about how difficult dealing with her is.

maybe, and it most likely not true, but maybe amuro found it somehow weird how she acted ( kaito kid )
maybe he didn't pay much attention to her, because he might thought its not really her, so why care if she died.
DIE person who tries to pretend he/she is shiho !!

I really don't know, many things were left with ?????
GIN X SHIHO <3<3<3
VERMOUTH IS SEXY AS HELL !!

Elena Miyano and Atsushi ..... APTX 4869 & Silver Bullet
Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » April 24th, 2014, 1:20 pm

Yuki_JX wrote:
This exactly what Amuro said on 824
Amuro: The detailed files from before and after Akai's death...
Amuro: Can I see them one more time?
Vermouth: Yes...

"Can I see them one more time?" It implies that Amuro already seen these files before probably after the boss gave him the permission. The question is why he need to ask Vermouth first? The probable answer is because the way they handle there Classified Information are the same as CIA, FBI and other Intelligences Agency which needed Certain Level of Security Clearance to access these files/materials and its one time only. The files probably classified as "Top Secret" (Highest to all) to Black Org, which few members can only access like Vermouth, The BO Boss, and probably Gin. These files/materials may range to handwritten documents, reports, digital data, audio, and videos.

Spoiler:
Image



This exactly what Amuro said on 894
Vermouth: If that's what you suspect, would you like to see the video of Akai being shot?
Amuro: Ah, yes... The video that was taken via a hidden camera around Kir's neck...

"Ah, yes... The video that was taken via a hidden camera around Kir's neck..." It implies that Amuro already knew the existence of the video which he described how the video was taken.

The question is if Amuro already gain an access to these files, not only once but twice, then why he ignore the video? In 824 he said "The detailed files from before and after Akai's death.." therefore any files/materials, including the video is included from before and after Akai's death.

Spoiler:
Image
Fujiwara and Zenthisoror do an excellent job translating and choose words carefully so that the connotations of what people say are the same in English. I have a lot of faith and trust in their ability, having used their words to solve cases for years now. Bourbon would not be saying what he does if he could freely see the files or video of Akai's death. This isn't a theory, this is an observation as a native English speaker who trusts the translators.

Apologies because this is less than diplomatic to say, but you seem to be stuck on this theory that the boss must have given Amuro permission to see the files and video because it is a reasonable thing to do. It is clouding your ability to step back and examine the lines in a neutral and critical fashion.
I used to think like you did: that Amuro had seen the video because Shuuichi was important to him; however, in 824, I was forced to step back and reevaluate what Amuro has permission to access. I still thought he had probably seen the video because it would be part of the files he has seen already, but then in 894, I was forced to change views because of what he and Vermouth said. That's what I mean by it being counterproductive to get attached to any one way of thinking.

The line in 824 proves exactly what I said it does. If Bourbon had permission to look at the files then he would have said "I'm going to look at the files again". But Bourbon did not say this. He said "Can I see them one more time?". HE HAS TO ASK VERMOUTH FOR PERMISSION TO SEE THE FILES! That means he cannot view them freely by himself. Nobody asks permission to see things they are already free to see.

In 894, Bourbon reveals he knows about the existence of the video. However, Vermouth seems to know he hasn't seen it, because he doesn't have permission. Therefore, Vermouth offers to let Amuro see the video and he accepts. "If that's what you suspect, would you like to see the video of Akai being shot? -- Ah, yes... the video that was taken via a hidden camera around Kir's neck."
Because Vermouth knows Amuro hasn't seen the video yet, she tells Amuro about what Kir and Akai said to each other. Note how Vermouth phrases her comment. "This is what that guy said before he was shot." That is what you would say to someone new to the material. You would not use that phrasing to recollect about something you both have seen. Vermouth would have told Amuro "Remember what that guy said before he was shot?" if Amuro has seen the video already.

The lines imply exactly what I have said: Amuro has to ask Vermouth permission to view the files and video. The only sensible reason Amuro would ask for permission from an "executive agent" like Vermouth is because he does not have those privileges himself. On top of that, he hasn't seen Kir's camera video until 894 when Vermouth offers him access.

Please start a new topic if you want to continue to debate this. I have said the same thing three times. We cannot clog up this topic anymore by going in circles. I'll be happy to keep going, but only in another topic. You can choose Chek's theories, or you can make a new one yourself.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Yuki_JX » April 24th, 2014, 5:17 pm

My apologies to. Truthfully, I'm reading and try understand carefully all replies even how long it is. I'm not here to start an unfriendly debate. All I want is to share and exchange my ideas, theories, opinions, deductions about DC.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:This isn't a theory, this is an observation as a native English speaker who trusts the translators.

I'm not a native English speakers to begin with. English is my second language. I always trusted the translator of DCTP. DCTP translation group is one of the best in translation group IMO.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Please start a new topic if you want to continue to debate this

Like what I said no debates.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Apologies because this is less than diplomatic to say, but you seem to be stuck on this theory that the boss must have given Amuro permission to see the files and video because it is a reasonable thing to do. It is clouding your ability to step back and examine the lines in a neutral and critical fashion.

I'm always in neutral and always consider all possible theories base on logic, common sense and my observation. Its reasonable because it is a part of verification/investigation on Akai's Death which The Boss permitted to begin with. The only reason i think the boss will not permit Amuro to access the files is that he doesn't trust Amuro, but considering Amuro's(Bourbon) Activation and Boss permission chances is very slim.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:The line in 824 proves exactly what I said it does. If Bourbon had permission to look at the files then he would have said "I'm going to look at the files again".

This is only true if that permission to look at the files has no time limit/time span, but if it hastime limit/time span it is false. Like what I pointing out in my last post, if we consider on how the BO handle their Classified Information, both security clearance and time limit/time span) must be implemented, since they are a SECRET Organization and having free to see anything and anytime system on classified info will compromised the Org.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:But Bourbon did not say this. He said "Can I see them one more time?". HE HAS TO ASK VERMOUTH FOR PERMISSION TO SEE THE FILES! That means he cannot view them freely by himself. Nobody asks permission to see things they are already free to see.

You must first know how classified information works before concluding like this.
To access CI(specific information you want to access) you need first security clearance(an approval/permission of higher up) depending on what kind/level of CI you wish to access. After they gave security clearance you now have an access to the specific CI and also they gave you a time limit/time span on accessing that CI. After the time limit/time span expired the security clearance will also expire. Therefore to access again that specific CI you need to have another security clearance(an approval/permission of higher up) to gain an access again.

Considering the above info this what happen likely. the boss give permission to access file to Amuro via Boss's permission to verify Akai's death > Amuro gain an access to files > The time limit expired > Amuro cannot access the files anymore > Amuro ask permission to Vermouth on 824 to see it again one more time > Amuro gain an access again to files > The time limit expired > Amuro cannot access the files anymore again.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: However, Vermouth seems to know he hasn't seen it, because he doesn't have permission.

Sorry i don't see your point on how he doesn't have/gain a permission.

We knew that video is part BO classified info right? Agree? If Yes
Then this my deduction (If No? don't read it)
On 824 this is what Amuro said "The detailed files from BEFORE and AFTER AKAI's DEATH...Can I see them one more time?" and Vermouth replied "Yes..."
The question is, did that video is part of detailed files from BEFORE and AFTER AKAI's DEATH? Yes. Because it was the video of Akai being shot(The day Akai's faked his own death). Now did he gain a permission to access the video? Yes. cause Vermouth reply to Amuro's question is "Yes...".
How many times did Amuro accessed the files before 894? Minumum of 2
Why? because Amuro said "Can I see them one more time?". "One more time" is same as the word "again" and it may denotes 2 or more.


Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: "If that's what you suspect, would you like to see the video of Akai being shot? -- Ah, yes... the video that was taken via a hidden camera around Kir's neck."
Because Vermouth knows Amuro hasn't seen the video yet, she tells Amuro about what Kir and Akai said to each other. Note how Vermouth phrases her comment. "This is what that guy said before he was shot." That is what you would say to someone new to the material. You would not use that phrasing to recollect about something you both have seen. Vermouth would have told Amuro "Remember what that guy said before he was shot?" if Amuro has seen the video already.

I think there was a misunderstanding in here. Maybe because of what I said last post

Yuki_JX wrote:It implies that Amuro already seen these files before probably after the boss gave him the permission.

Yuki_JX wrote:These files/materials may range to handwritten documents, reports, digital data, audio, and videos.


What I mean of "seen"in here is not the video itself, but media (ie. sdcard, cd, bluray) where the video is recorded or stored. The word "see" is a very complicated word because it changes its meaning depending on how you use it in a sentence.

For clarification Amuro seen the files include the media(where is the video is recorded or stored), but he doesn't watch it.


I'm hoping for a healthy sharing and exchanging ideas, theories, opinions, deductions ;D
Dyka_13
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Dyka_13 » April 24th, 2014, 8:12 pm

These debates starts to feel like youtube now!!! maybe we just need to wait till 895 comes out :D
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby PhantomWriter » April 24th, 2014, 8:25 pm

Dyka_13 wrote:These debates starts to feel like youtube now!!! maybe we just need to wait till 895 comes out :D


Nah, if it were Youtube, there'd be a lot more swearing, capslocking, and calling people "f****ts."

And we have a day. We need to be patient. For example, doing another hobby you have can help pass the time if you're ancy.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby The_evilbit » April 24th, 2014, 11:41 pm

Dyka_13 wrote:These debates starts to feel like youtube now!!! maybe we just need to wait till 895 comes out :D


Still waiting to see if my theory is correct, in fact its the real shuichi akai with a mask. His real disguise will be in how he cooks his curry to avoid suspicion.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Postby Okiyakaivan » April 25th, 2014, 3:05 am

how many weeks did we, need to wait for the file 895 out?
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